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[NFL] Thread: Denver Gets That Tall Pocket Passer They've Been Missing

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Posts

  • ToxTox I kill threads he/himRegistered User regular
    quovadis13 wrote: »
    The problem with Stafford's Hall of Fame case is that at no point was he a top 5 QB in the league and it's hard to see him being one in the future with the current generation of QBs still active. Maybe you say QB play is so good now that doesn't matter, but it does strike me as a problem.

    Of course I'm someone who semi-seriously thinks Chris Osgood should be in the hockey hall, so what do I know.

    I mean, 2011-2013 he clearly was top 5 and even without that, its not really a knock to not be top 5 when every year he was QB, at least 4 of the 5 best QBs were all time great, no brainer obvious hall of famers. He's clearly not in the Brady/Manning/Brees/Rodgers class, but he is almost certainly in the class right below.

    Exactly, Stafford is the Hall of Very Good.

    If Brady/Manning/Rodgers are your HoF standard, then there's really only ... a handful of HoF-quality talent. Like, maybe 10% of the actual HoF?

    H3KnucklesShadowenTrajan45Shadowhope
  • MulletudeMulletude Registered User regular
    Stafford has at least a few more years in him I'd think. Maybe a few more years playing on a better team solidifies his future HOF status.

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  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver You don't have to attend every argument you are invited to. Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    tbh if there was a new league rule that anyone who serves 10 years on the Lions gets a ring and automatic entry into the Hall of Fame I'd probably be like "....ok, that's fair"

    I mean

    We don't want to incentivize staying with the Lions

    Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
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  • quovadis13quovadis13 Registered User regular
    Stafford is currently 12th all time in passing yards (yes I know, only one stat) and will likely play for several more years to increase that. He sits at 50k yards and has a good chance of 60k which puts him in Marino territory. 8 of the 11 qbs in front of him are in or sure thing hall of famers which leaves Rivers (probably a HOF), Eli (probably a HOF) and Matt Ryan (probably more debatable, but winning big in a Super Bowl is not winning a Super Bowl). Stafford has a good case to make.

    H3KnucklesShadowhope
  • quovadis13quovadis13 Registered User regular
    Also they mentioned this basically in passing but it's a bit sad to see Michele Tafoya retiring. She's been a very constant, solid sideline presence during my time with football.

    It appears she has a post-football plan in action already

  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    quovadis13 wrote: »
    Also they mentioned this basically in passing but it's a bit sad to see Michele Tafoya retiring. She's been a very constant, solid sideline presence during my time with football.

    It appears she has a post-football plan in action already


    Yeah I saw she's going to chair the minnesota GOP. So uhh go fuck yourself nut job.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    pleasepaypreacher.net
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  • GyralGyral Registered User regular
    Yeah, that story did a hard (right) turn for me. "Michelle Tafoya's retiring? Aw, I'm sad to... To work for the GOP? Fuck her straight to hell."

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  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    Like anyone joining this GOP in these times, is going to be a raging bigot/anti mask crazy person.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    pleasepaypreacher.net
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  • Atlas in ChainsAtlas in Chains Registered User regular
    Looks like the game ending kneel down flipped the prop bet for Stafford's rushing yards from the over to the under. Bad beat.

    BlackDragon480LostNinjaButtersmcpShadowhopechrono_travelleradmanbCarpy
  • RedTideRedTide Registered User regular
    Eli has two super bowl MVPs, played extremely well in two successful playoff campaigns, was extremely durable and accumulated a bunch of top 10 passing stats along the way.

    Besides beating Brady in his prime twice, those two Giants beat teams that had Favre, Rogers, Ryan and Romo under center.

    The 49ers in 2011 absolutely drilled him into the dirt for four quarters and he still managed to cobble together a win.

    Manning face is a thing and all but the dude still managed to send home the best the league had to offer twice and a lot of emnity comes from that.

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  • Captain InertiaCaptain Inertia Registered User regular
    quovadis13 wrote: »
    Stafford is currently 12th all time in passing yards (yes I know, only one stat) and will likely play for several more years to increase that. He sits at 50k yards and has a good chance of 60k which puts him in Marino territory. 8 of the 11 qbs in front of him are in or sure thing hall of famers which leaves Rivers (probably a HOF), Eli (probably a HOF) and Matt Ryan (probably more debatable, but winning big in a Super Bowl is not winning a Super Bowl). Stafford has a good case to make.

    This is just a slam dunk argument for accepting the devaluation of QB counting stats and the need to look at dudes on a WAR/VORP like way

    Matt Stafford is not HoF because neither Phil nor Eli should be HoF (Eli probably gets it for the rings tho)

  • Santa ClaustrophobiaSanta Claustrophobia Ho Ho Ho Disconnecting from Xbox LIVERegistered User regular
    RedTide wrote: »
    Eli has two super bowl MVPs, played extremely well in two successful playoff campaigns, was extremely durable and accumulated a bunch of top 10 passing stats along the way.

    Besides beating Brady in his prime twice, those two Giants beat teams that had Favre, Rogers, Ryan and Romo under center.

    The 49ers in 2011 absolutely drilled him into the dirt for four quarters and he still managed to cobble together a win.

    Manning face is a thing and all but the dude still managed to send home the best the league had to offer twice and a lot of emnity comes from that.

    Well, if it's one thing we know about HOF-calibre QBs, it's how effective they are at playing defense, too.

  • RedTideRedTide Registered User regular
    RedTide wrote: »
    Eli has two super bowl MVPs, played extremely well in two successful playoff campaigns, was extremely durable and accumulated a bunch of top 10 passing stats along the way.

    Besides beating Brady in his prime twice, those two Giants beat teams that had Favre, Rogers, Ryan and Romo under center.

    The 49ers in 2011 absolutely drilled him into the dirt for four quarters and he still managed to cobble together a win.

    Manning face is a thing and all but the dude still managed to send home the best the league had to offer twice and a lot of emnity comes from that.

    Well, if it's one thing we know about HOF-calibre QBs, it's how effective they are at playing defense, too.

    Well he also holds the record for most passing yards in a post season and in those 2 super bowl seasons he threw a total of two interceptions.

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  • HappylilElfHappylilElf Registered User regular
    Lets compare the teams on the offensive side of the ball that Eli played with vs the ones Stafford played with.

    If Eli is HoF material Stafford absolutely is.

    H3Knuckles
  • Santa ClaustrophobiaSanta Claustrophobia Ho Ho Ho Disconnecting from Xbox LIVERegistered User regular
    RedTide wrote: »
    RedTide wrote: »
    Eli has two super bowl MVPs, played extremely well in two successful playoff campaigns, was extremely durable and accumulated a bunch of top 10 passing stats along the way.

    Besides beating Brady in his prime twice, those two Giants beat teams that had Favre, Rogers, Ryan and Romo under center.

    The 49ers in 2011 absolutely drilled him into the dirt for four quarters and he still managed to cobble together a win.

    Manning face is a thing and all but the dude still managed to send home the best the league had to offer twice and a lot of emnity comes from that.

    Well, if it's one thing we know about HOF-calibre QBs, it's how effective they are at playing defense, too.

    Well he also holds the record for most passing yards in a post season and in those 2 super bowl seasons he threw a total of two interceptions.

    The conversation about Eli's HOF status is always about post-season performances. The epitome of small sample size.

    Captain Inertiachrono_traveller
  • tzeentchlingtzeentchling Doctor of Rocks OaklandRegistered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    quovadis13 wrote: »
    Also they mentioned this basically in passing but it's a bit sad to see Michele Tafoya retiring. She's been a very constant, solid sideline presence during my time with football.

    It appears she has a post-football plan in action already


    Yeah I saw she's going to chair the minnesota GOP. So uhh go fuck yourself nut job.

    ... goddamn milkshake duck!

    PreachermarajiH3KnucklesElvenshaeMunkus BeaverHappylilElfSorceBlackDragon480ButtersElement Brian
  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    quovadis13 wrote: »
    Also they mentioned this basically in passing but it's a bit sad to see Michele Tafoya retiring. She's been a very constant, solid sideline presence during my time with football.

    It appears she has a post-football plan in action already


    Yeah I saw she's going to chair the minnesota GOP. So uhh go fuck yourself nut job.

    ... goddamn milkshake duck!

    Honestly could have called this one from a mile away.

    She's got the call the manager eyes.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    pleasepaypreacher.net
    MvrckBlackDragon480zepherinCaptain Inertia
  • LostNinjaLostNinja Registered User regular
    Looks like the game ending kneel down flipped the prop bet for Stafford's rushing yards from the over to the under. Bad beat.

    This is kind of hilarious as long as you don’t have money on it.

    EddyHappylilElfzagdrobmcpToxDevoutlyApatheticCarpy
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Tafoya's been saying dumb shit about Kaepernick and other social justice issues for years.

    Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
    TicaldfjamBlackDragon480Preacher
  • jkylefultonjkylefulton Squid...or Kid? NNID - majpellRegistered User regular
    Eli gets into the HoF just for preventing the Pat's from having a perfect season. Put that entire Giants squad in just for that, they're all American heroes.

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  • RedTideRedTide Registered User regular
    RedTide wrote: »
    RedTide wrote: »
    Eli has two super bowl MVPs, played extremely well in two successful playoff campaigns, was extremely durable and accumulated a bunch of top 10 passing stats along the way.

    Besides beating Brady in his prime twice, those two Giants beat teams that had Favre, Rogers, Ryan and Romo under center.

    The 49ers in 2011 absolutely drilled him into the dirt for four quarters and he still managed to cobble together a win.

    Manning face is a thing and all but the dude still managed to send home the best the league had to offer twice and a lot of emnity comes from that.

    Well, if it's one thing we know about HOF-calibre QBs, it's how effective they are at playing defense, too.

    Well he also holds the record for most passing yards in a post season and in those 2 super bowl seasons he threw a total of two interceptions.

    The conversation about Eli's HOF status is always about post-season performances. The epitome of small sample size.

    I mean it's what sets him and a lot of other hall of famers apart from the Matt Ryan's, Tony Romos and Philip Rivers out there

    RedTide#1907 on Battle.net
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  • Stabbity StyleStabbity Style He/Him | Warning: Mothership Reporting Kennewick, WARegistered User regular
    Eli gets into the HoF just for preventing the Pat's from having a perfect season. Put that entire Giants squad in just for that, they're all American heroes.

    Idk, I'd rather have the Patriots win a perfect season than have to hear about that one undefeated Dolphins team popping champagne when the last undefeated team loses one more time.

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  • HappylilElfHappylilElf Registered User regular
    Eli gets into the HoF just for preventing the Pat's from having a perfect season. Put that entire Giants squad in just for that, they're all American heroes.

    Idk, I'd rather have the Patriots win a perfect season than have to hear about that one undefeated Dolphins team popping champagne when the last undefeated team loses one more time.

    Naw, Patriots fans are already far more than insufferable enough.

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  • Santa ClaustrophobiaSanta Claustrophobia Ho Ho Ho Disconnecting from Xbox LIVERegistered User regular
    RedTide wrote: »
    RedTide wrote: »
    RedTide wrote: »
    Eli has two super bowl MVPs, played extremely well in two successful playoff campaigns, was extremely durable and accumulated a bunch of top 10 passing stats along the way.

    Besides beating Brady in his prime twice, those two Giants beat teams that had Favre, Rogers, Ryan and Romo under center.

    The 49ers in 2011 absolutely drilled him into the dirt for four quarters and he still managed to cobble together a win.

    Manning face is a thing and all but the dude still managed to send home the best the league had to offer twice and a lot of emnity comes from that.

    Well, if it's one thing we know about HOF-calibre QBs, it's how effective they are at playing defense, too.

    Well he also holds the record for most passing yards in a post season and in those 2 super bowl seasons he threw a total of two interceptions.

    The conversation about Eli's HOF status is always about post-season performances. The epitome of small sample size.

    I mean it's what sets him and a lot of other hall of famers apart from the Matt Ryan's, Tony Romos and Philip Rivers out there

    Good to know that the primary consideration for enshrinement is to be on a team that has extended periods of success.

  • RedTideRedTide Registered User regular
    RedTide wrote: »
    RedTide wrote: »
    RedTide wrote: »
    Eli has two super bowl MVPs, played extremely well in two successful playoff campaigns, was extremely durable and accumulated a bunch of top 10 passing stats along the way.

    Besides beating Brady in his prime twice, those two Giants beat teams that had Favre, Rogers, Ryan and Romo under center.

    The 49ers in 2011 absolutely drilled him into the dirt for four quarters and he still managed to cobble together a win.

    Manning face is a thing and all but the dude still managed to send home the best the league had to offer twice and a lot of emnity comes from that.

    Well, if it's one thing we know about HOF-calibre QBs, it's how effective they are at playing defense, too.

    Well he also holds the record for most passing yards in a post season and in those 2 super bowl seasons he threw a total of two interceptions.

    The conversation about Eli's HOF status is always about post-season performances. The epitome of small sample size.

    I mean it's what sets him and a lot of other hall of famers apart from the Matt Ryan's, Tony Romos and Philip Rivers out there

    Good to know that the primary consideration for enshrinement is to be on a team that has extended periods of success.

    Okay Jerrah, now you're just being contrarian

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  • MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    RedTide wrote: »
    RedTide wrote: »
    RedTide wrote: »
    Eli has two super bowl MVPs, played extremely well in two successful playoff campaigns, was extremely durable and accumulated a bunch of top 10 passing stats along the way.

    Besides beating Brady in his prime twice, those two Giants beat teams that had Favre, Rogers, Ryan and Romo under center.

    The 49ers in 2011 absolutely drilled him into the dirt for four quarters and he still managed to cobble together a win.

    Manning face is a thing and all but the dude still managed to send home the best the league had to offer twice and a lot of emnity comes from that.

    Well, if it's one thing we know about HOF-calibre QBs, it's how effective they are at playing defense, too.

    Well he also holds the record for most passing yards in a post season and in those 2 super bowl seasons he threw a total of two interceptions.

    The conversation about Eli's HOF status is always about post-season performances. The epitome of small sample size.

    I mean it's what sets him and a lot of other hall of famers apart from the Matt Ryan's, Tony Romos and Philip Rivers out there

    Good to know that the primary consideration for enshrinement is to be on a team that has extended periods of success.

    I mean, that's basically how it works, no?

    Chuck Howley (Superbowl V) is apparently the only player to win a Superbowl MVP on the losing team.

    Worst I could find for League MVP was Barry Sanders 1997 having a 9-7 record, and still going to the playoffs.

    Hard to find details on career records of Hall of Famers, but most in there were also on successful teams, and if Joe Thomas doesn't go in next year, it'll be because of that bias.

    It's just one of those things. Players on great teams get more opportunities, which leads to greater performances, which leads to more consideration.

    ElvenshaeRedTidemaraji
  • Santa ClaustrophobiaSanta Claustrophobia Ho Ho Ho Disconnecting from Xbox LIVERegistered User regular
    RedTide wrote: »
    RedTide wrote: »
    RedTide wrote: »
    RedTide wrote: »
    Eli has two super bowl MVPs, played extremely well in two successful playoff campaigns, was extremely durable and accumulated a bunch of top 10 passing stats along the way.

    Besides beating Brady in his prime twice, those two Giants beat teams that had Favre, Rogers, Ryan and Romo under center.

    The 49ers in 2011 absolutely drilled him into the dirt for four quarters and he still managed to cobble together a win.

    Manning face is a thing and all but the dude still managed to send home the best the league had to offer twice and a lot of emnity comes from that.

    Well, if it's one thing we know about HOF-calibre QBs, it's how effective they are at playing defense, too.

    Well he also holds the record for most passing yards in a post season and in those 2 super bowl seasons he threw a total of two interceptions.

    The conversation about Eli's HOF status is always about post-season performances. The epitome of small sample size.

    I mean it's what sets him and a lot of other hall of famers apart from the Matt Ryan's, Tony Romos and Philip Rivers out there

    Good to know that the primary consideration for enshrinement is to be on a team that has extended periods of success.

    Okay Jerrah, now you're just being contrarian

    If you are making the argument that players who win championships deserve higher consideration over players that don't, then it opens up all kinds arguments about who is or is not enshrined.

    Also, I'm not making the argument that Matt Ryan, Tony Romo, Phillip Rivers, or any other non-Super Bowl winning QB (or other position) should get in. I am questioning the argument you are clearly making that the only thing that gets Eli in is a small sample size of six to eight games where he was not the only player who contributed to those victories.

    From the beginning I have always maintained that Eli will get in because of his Super Bowls. I also maintain that it's a bullshit metric, you goose.

  • zepherinzepherin Russian warship, go fuck yourself Registered User regular
    edited February 15
    I like Stafford. And I think if we are saying who has a better chance at HOF. Then we take a who do I think Stafford should get it over. So we can equivocate properly.

    I think Stafford is a better pick than Joe Flaco Russell Wilson. I think Stafford is a better pick than Phillip Rivers. I think Stafford is better than Matt Ryan or Cam Newton

    I think Russell Wilson and Matt Stafford are equivalent in their Hall of Fameness.

    I think Eli is a better pick than Stafford

    zepherin on
  • ButtersButters A glass of some milks Registered User regular
    RedTide wrote: »
    RedTide wrote: »
    RedTide wrote: »
    RedTide wrote: »
    Eli has two super bowl MVPs, played extremely well in two successful playoff campaigns, was extremely durable and accumulated a bunch of top 10 passing stats along the way.

    Besides beating Brady in his prime twice, those two Giants beat teams that had Favre, Rogers, Ryan and Romo under center.

    The 49ers in 2011 absolutely drilled him into the dirt for four quarters and he still managed to cobble together a win.

    Manning face is a thing and all but the dude still managed to send home the best the league had to offer twice and a lot of emnity comes from that.

    Well, if it's one thing we know about HOF-calibre QBs, it's how effective they are at playing defense, too.

    Well he also holds the record for most passing yards in a post season and in those 2 super bowl seasons he threw a total of two interceptions.

    The conversation about Eli's HOF status is always about post-season performances. The epitome of small sample size.

    I mean it's what sets him and a lot of other hall of famers apart from the Matt Ryan's, Tony Romos and Philip Rivers out there

    Good to know that the primary consideration for enshrinement is to be on a team that has extended periods of success.

    Okay Jerrah, now you're just being contrarian

    If you are making the argument that players who win championships deserve higher consideration over players that don't, then it opens up all kinds arguments about who is or is not enshrined.

    Also, I'm not making the argument that Matt Ryan, Tony Romo, Phillip Rivers, or any other non-Super Bowl winning QB (or other position) should get in. I am questioning the argument you are clearly making that the only thing that gets Eli in is a small sample size of six to eight games where he was not the only player who contributed to those victories.

    From the beginning I have always maintained that Eli will get in because of his Super Bowls. I also maintain that it's a bullshit metric, you goose.

    I don't rightly know how best to gatekeep the HOF because it's always had a massive element of subjectivity to it. Eli's sample size is small and benefited from some dumb luck (a dropped interception in 2008 and a one-legged Gronk in 2012), but there is something to be said about a player performing their best when the pressure is highest vs peers that do the opposite. Compare how he performed especially in crunch time when the Giants ran the best 2-minute offense in football vs say Qaaron Rodgers; who has spent the last decade squandering 13-win seasons with scorless 4th quarters in the playoffs.

    Take all that and how much worse the franchise is since he retired, and I think there is at least room for debate on his candidacy.

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  • RedTideRedTide Registered User regular
    RedTide wrote: »
    RedTide wrote: »
    RedTide wrote: »
    RedTide wrote: »
    Eli has two super bowl MVPs, played extremely well in two successful playoff campaigns, was extremely durable and accumulated a bunch of top 10 passing stats along the way.

    Besides beating Brady in his prime twice, those two Giants beat teams that had Favre, Rogers, Ryan and Romo under center.

    The 49ers in 2011 absolutely drilled him into the dirt for four quarters and he still managed to cobble together a win.

    Manning face is a thing and all but the dude still managed to send home the best the league had to offer twice and a lot of emnity comes from that.

    Well, if it's one thing we know about HOF-calibre QBs, it's how effective they are at playing defense, too.

    Well he also holds the record for most passing yards in a post season and in those 2 super bowl seasons he threw a total of two interceptions.

    The conversation about Eli's HOF status is always about post-season performances. The epitome of small sample size.

    I mean it's what sets him and a lot of other hall of famers apart from the Matt Ryan's, Tony Romos and Philip Rivers out there

    Good to know that the primary consideration for enshrinement is to be on a team that has extended periods of success.

    Okay Jerrah, now you're just being contrarian

    If you are making the argument that players who win championships deserve higher consideration over players that don't, then it opens up all kinds arguments about who is or is not enshrined.

    Also, I'm not making the argument that Matt Ryan, Tony Romo, Phillip Rivers, or any other non-Super Bowl winning QB (or other position) should get in. I am questioning the argument you are clearly making that the only thing that gets Eli in is a small sample size of six to eight games where he was not the only player who contributed to those victories.

    From the beginning I have always maintained that Eli will get in because of his Super Bowls. I also maintain that it's a bullshit metric, you goose.

    He's also accumulated a bunch of the stats that plenty of hall of famers do as well.

    Fun fact, Joe Burrow wasn't the only player to play with a league worst offensive line in the super bowl but the other guy won.

    The reason championships count for something is because they're the biggest moments in your career. If regular season excellence never translates to even a chance to play there, what is there to venerate

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  • Santa ClaustrophobiaSanta Claustrophobia Ho Ho Ho Disconnecting from Xbox LIVERegistered User regular
    RedTide wrote: »
    RedTide wrote: »
    RedTide wrote: »
    RedTide wrote: »
    RedTide wrote: »
    Eli has two super bowl MVPs, played extremely well in two successful playoff campaigns, was extremely durable and accumulated a bunch of top 10 passing stats along the way.

    Besides beating Brady in his prime twice, those two Giants beat teams that had Favre, Rogers, Ryan and Romo under center.

    The 49ers in 2011 absolutely drilled him into the dirt for four quarters and he still managed to cobble together a win.

    Manning face is a thing and all but the dude still managed to send home the best the league had to offer twice and a lot of emnity comes from that.

    Well, if it's one thing we know about HOF-calibre QBs, it's how effective they are at playing defense, too.

    Well he also holds the record for most passing yards in a post season and in those 2 super bowl seasons he threw a total of two interceptions.

    The conversation about Eli's HOF status is always about post-season performances. The epitome of small sample size.

    I mean it's what sets him and a lot of other hall of famers apart from the Matt Ryan's, Tony Romos and Philip Rivers out there

    Good to know that the primary consideration for enshrinement is to be on a team that has extended periods of success.

    Okay Jerrah, now you're just being contrarian

    If you are making the argument that players who win championships deserve higher consideration over players that don't, then it opens up all kinds arguments about who is or is not enshrined.

    Also, I'm not making the argument that Matt Ryan, Tony Romo, Phillip Rivers, or any other non-Super Bowl winning QB (or other position) should get in. I am questioning the argument you are clearly making that the only thing that gets Eli in is a small sample size of six to eight games where he was not the only player who contributed to those victories.

    From the beginning I have always maintained that Eli will get in because of his Super Bowls. I also maintain that it's a bullshit metric, you goose.

    He's also accumulated a bunch of the stats that plenty of hall of famers do as well.

    Fun fact, Joe Burrow wasn't the only player to play with a league worst offensive line in the super bowl but the other guy won.

    The reason championships count for something is because they're the biggest moments in your career. If regular season excellence never translates to even a chance to play there, what is there to venerate

    Ask Detroit fans.

  • Captain InertiaCaptain Inertia Registered User regular
    Matt Stafford isn’t a HoF QB, earnestly saying he is is evidence of the devaluation of QB stats

    Ebum has the dagger to the argument- even in his best years there were always several other QBs better than him. We’re arguing for him to be in the HoF based on an assumption of Scott Rolenism or Omar Vizquelism.

    He can get there, though, either by becoming the best QB for a couple years between now and retirement OR through the flawed “ringzzzzz” threshold

    MorganVmarajiAuralynxAtlas in Chains
  • Captain InertiaCaptain Inertia Registered User regular
    Don’t make me start a “is Matt Stafford elite” meter

  • zagdrobzagdrob Registered User regular
    Matt Stafford isn’t a HoF QB, earnestly saying he is is evidence of the devaluation of QB stats

    Ebum has the dagger to the argument- even in his best years there were always several other QBs better than him. We’re arguing for him to be in the HoF based on an assumption of Scott Rolenism or Omar Vizquelism.

    He can get there, though, either by becoming the best QB for a couple years between now and retirement OR through the flawed “ringzzzzz” threshold

    Again though, those several other QBs are GOAT-tier first ballot guaranteed HoF players. All playing on far better teams with better coaching and rosters than Stafford ever had at Detroit.

    Most of the quarterbacks in the HoF would - stat inflation or not - still be second fiddle if they were Brady / Manning / Rodgers contemporaries.

    But I agree that Stafford can probably make a case for squeaking in now, but the last few years of his career after this one will cement him as a shoe-in or has-been.

  • MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    While I don't know how you quantify it, I don't think a couple years in the top 10% of QB's and a career mostly in the top 20-30% should qualify you for the Hall of Fame.

    I get that grading on a curve makes it difficult to assess, but the game has changed so much, that you can only really rank against contemporaries. There are QB's in the Hall that played their entire careers before the forward pass was fully implemented. And it's not like it's looking to be comparatively easier in hindsight. It's too easy to speak for some of the new talent, but I think most metrics by which Stafford is even in the conversation, are going to get blown out over the next decade or two. Especially as noone seems interested in pro-rating season stats.

    I like Stafford, and I think the Lions did him dirty for a long time, but unless he does something spectacular in the twilight of his career, including him (or Eli, or Rivers, or even arguably Ben) just means the bar for a QB is so much lower.

    There were people arguing that Polomalu was a questionable case for Hall of Fame, let alone first ballot. That's the bar for other positions.

    And that's kinda the point. I think Ben should be questionable for the Hall, and definitely not in the discussion for first ballot. And if that were the case, then Stafford, Eli, and Rivers aren't in that conversation IMO.

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  • Captain InertiaCaptain Inertia Registered User regular
    edited February 15
    zagdrob wrote: »
    Matt Stafford isn’t a HoF QB, earnestly saying he is is evidence of the devaluation of QB stats

    Ebum has the dagger to the argument- even in his best years there were always several other QBs better than him. We’re arguing for him to be in the HoF based on an assumption of Scott Rolenism or Omar Vizquelism.

    He can get there, though, either by becoming the best QB for a couple years between now and retirement OR through the flawed “ringzzzzz” threshold

    Again though, those several other QBs are GOAT-tier first ballot guaranteed HoF players. All playing on far better teams with better coaching and rosters than Stafford ever had at Detroit.

    Most of the quarterbacks in the HoF would - stat inflation or not - still be second fiddle if they were Brady / Manning / Rodgers contemporaries.

    But I agree that Stafford can probably make a case for squeaking in now, but the last few years of his career after this one will cement him as a shoe-in or has-been.

    I posit that other than Brady, those guys only look like GOAT tier guys because of the era in which they played, in which Stafford is accumulating his counting stats while being on the line of top-quartile QB

    That’s the point

    Raise Dan Marino through the camps, nutrition/fitness regimens, and Madden education today’s QBs had, paired with rule changes, new offensive innovations, increased skill and athleticism of his teammates, and analytics that say he should have thrown it even more and where do we think he ends up relative to Stafford’s numbers, just to name one example

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  • ButtersButters A glass of some milks Registered User regular
    I hate Ben as much as the next guy, but he is no question a Hall of Fame quarterback. The stats are there, the win count is there, the rings are there, and for about a 10-year period he was the hardest QB to sack in league history.

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  • Trajan45Trajan45 Registered User regular
    Butters wrote: »
    RedTide wrote: »
    RedTide wrote: »
    RedTide wrote: »
    RedTide wrote: »
    Eli has two super bowl MVPs, played extremely well in two successful playoff campaigns, was extremely durable and accumulated a bunch of top 10 passing stats along the way.

    Besides beating Brady in his prime twice, those two Giants beat teams that had Favre, Rogers, Ryan and Romo under center.

    The 49ers in 2011 absolutely drilled him into the dirt for four quarters and he still managed to cobble together a win.

    Manning face is a thing and all but the dude still managed to send home the best the league had to offer twice and a lot of emnity comes from that.

    Well, if it's one thing we know about HOF-calibre QBs, it's how effective they are at playing defense, too.

    Well he also holds the record for most passing yards in a post season and in those 2 super bowl seasons he threw a total of two interceptions.

    The conversation about Eli's HOF status is always about post-season performances. The epitome of small sample size.

    I mean it's what sets him and a lot of other hall of famers apart from the Matt Ryan's, Tony Romos and Philip Rivers out there

    Good to know that the primary consideration for enshrinement is to be on a team that has extended periods of success.

    Okay Jerrah, now you're just being contrarian

    If you are making the argument that players who win championships deserve higher consideration over players that don't, then it opens up all kinds arguments about who is or is not enshrined.

    Also, I'm not making the argument that Matt Ryan, Tony Romo, Phillip Rivers, or any other non-Super Bowl winning QB (or other position) should get in. I am questioning the argument you are clearly making that the only thing that gets Eli in is a small sample size of six to eight games where he was not the only player who contributed to those victories.

    From the beginning I have always maintained that Eli will get in because of his Super Bowls. I also maintain that it's a bullshit metric, you goose.

    I don't rightly know how best to gatekeep the HOF because it's always had a massive element of subjectivity to it. Eli's sample size is small and benefited from some dumb luck (a dropped interception in 2008 and a one-legged Gronk in 2012), but there is something to be said about a player performing their best when the pressure is highest vs peers that do the opposite. Compare how he performed especially in crunch time when the Giants ran the best 2-minute offense in football vs say Qaaron Rodgers; who has spent the last decade squandering 13-win seasons with scorless 4th quarters in the playoffs.

    Take all that and how much worse the franchise is since he retired, and I think there is at least room for debate on his candidacy.

    100% this. HOF arguments are pretty silly since there is no set barometer for who gets in. Stafford could get in if the voters look back and value what he's done enough to vote him in.

    Stafford still has years left, let's see how those go. Additionally whether Joe Flacco or Eli get in will determine Staffords likeliness.

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  • admanbadmanb unionize your workplace Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    The Hall of Fame is already just Hall of Very Good. Arguing over it is just a masturbatory exercise.

    Which is still fun so I don't blame anyone for trying. There's just no meaning to it.

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  • Captain InertiaCaptain Inertia Registered User regular
    edited February 15
    The NFL HoF represents like 1% of people who have played, I think it’s pretty elite (this year’s class seems very “we needed to add someone” though)

    Also why the fuck are we talking about Joe Flacco for HoF and not just as a humorous example to not get too worked up about the SB-winning QB

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