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[Destiny 2] Horsing Around

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  • CatalaseCatalase Registered User regular
    Again; yes you can't compare it to Y1 due to the gun changes. Which is arguably a new problem; why waste time on an ability that leaves you exposed for a shotgun in the face? Looking at you, shoulder charge.

    "Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination."
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Catalase wrote: »
    Again; yes you can't compare it to Y1 due to the gun changes. Which is arguably a new problem; why waste time on an ability that leaves you exposed for a shotgun in the face? Looking at you, shoulder charge.

    Yeah, the current sandbox is actually worse for a no-one-hit-kill shoulder charge since the TTK is a good chunk faster.

  • PeenPeen tw1tch0rz occasionallyRegistered User regular
    I realize it sounds like I'm being a Bungie apologist or something but honestly I'm just trying to push back against hating stuff before we've seen it or tried it.

    So like in the case of shoulder charge, it's already almost impossible to use in 3s because people see you coming from a mile away and kill you, no great loss there.

    In 6s you can use it, if you're not playing people who are great, but for me at least it's fun as a lead into an engagement with multiple people, I shoulder charge in and kill a guy and dunemarcher his friends and then clean up with a primary. If you try to run around exclusively shoulder charging people they catch on and you just keep getting shotgunned or whatever, it can only really be a tool in the toolbox for situational use.

    So now it can still be that. You can still use it as a mobility tool, same as you could before only better because they extended the range. You can still use the arc one as a lead into an engagement and instead of killing the person you charge you've blinded them and possibly their friends and you can still dunemarcher them and clean up with a primary, it only breaks it a little bit. Suppression shoulder charge already didn't one hit kill a super on impact and imagine if the tracking changes mean it actually works right or at least way better.

    And and, you can still have a one hit KO if you use Peregrine Greaves, they didn't really take it away, they just made us spec for it.

    I'm not saying it's all good, I'm just saying maybe lets see what there is to see before we declare ALL CHANGE BAD.

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  • Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    edited November 19
    Meanwhile, I run around in 6s with Skullfort shoulder charging folks left and right. I'll go on tears of 5+ kills in a row with that + chaperone. It's fun! It's risk v reward. Now Bungie is taking that playstyle and tossing it aside.

    I will of course play and try the new version of crucible. I just know from previous times when they've tried to increase the TTK and in general nerf abilities, it usually feels pretty bad. I'm more than happy to be wrong but I'd really don't think this is one of those situations. I think it's bad timing, especially because we have so many other options right now with a decent halo and other arena shooters to jump into. I was really hoping to tough out Destiny and play all the way through to the final expansion. But this is the kind of stuff that I'm not really sure who or why it's being done. It really feels like it's going overboard in terms of the level of changes they've done, when more targeted changes may have been more beneficial. It just shows that they've been working on this kind of revamp when they could have been working on other stuff.

    And sorry, but Peregrine's niche before was super shutdown. Having to get the setup of an in air shoulder charge (and then wait another 3-4 minutes for another one) is terrible.

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  • shoeboxjeddyshoeboxjeddy Registered User regular
    Peen, it doesn't require extensive testing to recognize that an ability that requires you to close to melee distance without ever shooting the enemy that leaves said enemy alive once it is successfully completed will get you killed. The reason people are so down on this stuff is that we've played the game for years and possess the skill of pattern recognition, something Bungie has never specced into.

    CatalaseDyvim Tvar
  • DisrupterDisrupter Registered User regular
    After playing halo a bit I think I know my personal issue with abilities in destiny. They leave you too exposed. Like I HATE abilities and would be better at destiny if I ignored them because while they can be powerful they are honestly suicide buttons for me most of the time

    Meanwhile in halo nades feel essential and powerful while being way weaker. Why? Cause I don’t have a massive animation lock using them.

    I think destiny abilities could be great if weaker but a lot quicker to use. And then throw in a pick up in the maps that charge your abilities quicker like back when we had special ammo pickups.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Peen, it doesn't require extensive testing to recognize that an ability that requires you to close to melee distance without ever shooting the enemy that leaves said enemy alive once it is successfully completed will get you killed. The reason people are so down on this stuff is that we've played the game for years and possess the skill of pattern recognition, something Bungie has never specced into.

    More importantly, we've literally been here before. We know what a non-one-hit-kill shoulder charge looks like and it sucks so bad they made it 1HKO. And that was, again, with a slower TTK and no special weapons. There's no reason to think this will somehow work out better this time around.

    And using as a mobility tool is even worse as a design goal honestly because now you are taking something cool that embodies the power fantasy of the class and instead of having it do the thing it says it does, you are instead making the smart use of it the non-intuitive and less exciting one. This is the whole problem the Behemoth melee has had all along and it's just terrible.

  • Knight_Knight_ Dead Dead Dead Registered User regular
    honestly it’s all worth it if i don’t spent 3 minutes of every crucible match dying to dawnblade on spawn

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  • PeenPeen tw1tch0rz occasionallyRegistered User regular
    We don't agree, that's fine, the last thing I'll say is that the weapon sandbox will still be what it is and that's among the most diverse and interesting that Destiny's had, so I think PvP will still be just fine regardless of what happens with abilities.

  • Zombie GandhiZombie Gandhi Registered User regular
    I think saying "they should have been working on other things" trivializes the refactor work necessary to do this individualized ability cooldown time thing.

    Yeah, I hate the shoulder charge choice. I continue to think (mostly driven by paranoia and resentment), that the sandbox team is run by people who don't play Titan. But like, we've been yelling for literal years for the ability to differentiate behavior between PVP and PVE, and that's happened, and is happening more after this. And we've been trying to say for years "change super charge to make it more about engagement and less about hiding" and that's changing. And we've been asking for balance and differences to differentiate and encourage build diversity, and this gives some of those choices. The idea that maybe Recovery->Intellect isn't the default choice because maybe you want to spec into grenade spam with your high Discipline + Demolitionist build seems interesting enough to at least give a glance.

    Is some of it off the fucking mark? Yep. Are all abilities getting hit because of the ghost of shatterdive? Yes. Are these changes still an indicator in broad infrastructure improvements to how Destiny can be adjusted to keep things moving seasonally and provide more granularity in player choice? Yes. And ultimately, I think having that toolset is worthwhile, even if I feel that they also overcorrected explicitly to accommodate future balance changes, exotics, and Void/Arc/Solar 3.0

    It's going to suck in several ways, but I think we're falling into the human trap of ignoring great positives for the glaring negatives.

    Peenlakhesis
  • shoeboxjeddyshoeboxjeddy Registered User regular
    I'm just at my limit of "Yes, the decisions they've made are bad and obviously so, but there is Potential for them to make good decisions too! So that's exciting." Nah, until they fix their BAD decision making apparatus, I refuse to be excited again. It's the most Destiny thing imaginable to finally add separation between PvE and PvP (something that was obviously needed like 7 years ago) and take that opportunity to... make laughably bad sandbox decisions. Then they'll say "We're taking community feedback into account of our tremendously poor judgment." Then the fix will come as a part of a paid content update and the community will be meant to throw them a parade for only ruining the game for 5 months or so. I'm so, so tired of it.

    Dyvim Tvar
  • The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    Then take a break! Do something else, play a different game. If it's not bringing you joy, move on.

    It's a video game! It is here for fun. If it's not fun for you, that's okay. You can infact stop!

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  • The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    On the actual changes: personally, I think slowing the game down a tad is no bad thing. I'd frankly like to see similar changes to weapons - bump the ttk up a tad for most things (like going from .6 to .9 ttk levels of tad).

    Tweak specials so they're not one shot, one kill without meeting some kind of condition. (Snipers and shottys are the big culprits here, but it's not like FRs aren't quietly terrifying either). The current game is very twitchy at points, and I think that squishes out some of the more interesting skill expression.

    Little nervous about flux grenade, simply because I don't think one shots on a long cooldown with a precise requirement are fun in pvp. Mind, I don't think one shots are very fun in general.

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  • BizazedoBizazedo Registered User regular
    edited November 19
    I can respect that a ton of work goes into...well, most things I consume. I appreciate that, I do. If someone is working their hardest at something and accomplishes milestones, good for them. I give my honest thumbs up.

    That being said, as an end-user / paying customer, I can appreciate that a ton of work goes into something while simultaneously not caring. It doesn't matter to me, as a customer, about how much effort went into something if I think the end product is going to be terrible. Don't get me wrong, I'm not supporting or saying abusive things towards the creators, but I also don't think wondering what the fuck someone is doing or expressing that I don't understand how they came to a decision is bad.

    English, or language in general, is a helluva thing, though, and as we now pretty much type words out as if we're speaking them, things can sound more harsh than it's actually intended. We don't write thesis papers or articles anymore where we re-read them or prepare them for both maximum impact and specifically targeted intent. We shoot from the hip!

    The shoulder charge change, and a few others, fall into this category for me. I just don't understand how that decision makes sense in the grand scheme of things and it makes me worry about all the changes because they think this change is appropriate.

    The only thing that makes sense to me is that they're just changing things to change the meta and that requires making some things terrible with the overall goal of making Crucible different. It seems to me that change is more important than individual changes making sense. Shoulder Charge is just a victim of "They said they don't like OHKOs, kill them all to change up Crucible, don't spend the time to examine everything individually".

    I'm sure they'll revert it or modify Peregrine Greaves so you don't need to be airborne.

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  • Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    It just sucks to feel like I finally "gotten good" at Destiny only for them to upend the table on me and change a bunch of mechanics. I'll go into it with an open mind but it really may be time for a break.

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  • ObiFettObiFett Use the Force As You WishRegistered User regular
    It just sucks to feel like I finally "gotten good" at Destiny only for them to upend the table on me and change a bunch of mechanics. I'll go into it with an open mind but it really may be time for a break.

    That break made easier by other shooters being out right now, I assume

  • Zombie GandhiZombie Gandhi Registered User regular
    They absolutely 100% change shit sometimes just to change it, or because something has high use, or because insert reason.

    They somewhat pursue "balance" but change for the sake of change and to create a new experimental environment is one of their principles.

    It can rub the wrong way, I think I hit acceptance a long time ago. But yeah the line about "live game means we can update" also means "we can fuck around and find out!"

  • DisrupterDisrupter Registered User regular
    They like to mix up the meta for the sake of change and it’s probably smart. It makes big releases of dlc feel more like sequels and new experiences rather than just more content

    All the biggest dlcs upended the pvp meta in a big way. Ttk had first sub setting, forsaken had the removal of double primary, shadow keep had armor 2.0, beyond light had stasis and the new way of making subclasses

    Witch queen getting this half step back to d2 y1 is interesting. The only think I don’t like is the flux ohk. It feels like they don’t get it. Ohk isn’t more ok if it’s rarer. In fact it’s less so. I’d rather engage an arc strider assuming they have a ohk nade than assuming they don’t abs being mad when it happened to be off it’s 4 min cooldown

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  • shoeboxjeddyshoeboxjeddy Registered User regular
    Then take a break! Do something else, play a different game. If it's not bringing you joy, move on.

    It's a video game! It is here for fun. If it's not fun for you, that's okay. You can infact stop!

    I'm already there. I'm in my break. I retain the right to throw rotten tomatoes at their constant stepping on of rakes. There's this "funny" dynamic where if you're playing the game and complaining, you're told to leave it if you hate it so much. Then if you stop playing and criticize it (because it was bad enough to stop playing it), people wonder why you're even talking about it if you don't play it. It's almost as if there's not good counter arguments and this is a rhetorical dance to try to force a positive only discussion. In short, nah. Knock it off.

    shrykeCatalaseDyvim Tvar
  • ArteenArteen Adept ValeRegistered User regular
    edited November 19
    Then take a break! Do something else, play a different game. If it's not bringing you joy, move on.

    It's a video game! It is here for fun. If it's not fun for you, that's okay. You can infact stop!

    I'm already there. I'm in my break. I retain the right to throw rotten tomatoes at their constant stepping on of rakes. There's this "funny" dynamic where if you're playing the game and complaining, you're told to leave it if you hate it so much. Then if you stop playing and criticize it (because it was bad enough to stop playing it), people wonder why you're even talking about it if you don't play it. It's almost as if there's not good counter arguments and this is a rhetorical dance to try to force a positive only discussion. In short, nah. Knock it off.

    Here's my perspective from the opposite position. Right now I'm having more fun with Crucible than I've had in a long time! The Trials rework is a huge improvement (mostly), I dared to venture back into Survival to hit Legend again, I've played more Iron Banner than I usually do in a season. Outside of some outliers it's a very fun time.

    All of these sweeping changes make me very wary and it's frustrating to be told "move on" from something I currently enjoy.

    Arteen on
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  • Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    edited November 19
    Nothing feels worse than missing a super, grenade, melee or whatever and then waiting 4 minutes for another (and yes, worse grenades will have faster cooldowns but.. I don't want worse grenades!)

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited November 19
    A lot of the backend changes I think are really great. And probably took the most amount of effort. Separating out abilities so their cooldowns can be balanced individually is a fantastic change for both the players and Bungie. The shift to focus more on gunplay is ... kind of ok? I think it's not a bad idea overall if done correctly but you have to be real careful.

    But the problem is that there's a ton of changes here that seem poorly thought out or motivated by just bad ideas. The removal of one-shot abilities it seems solely based on high-level design goals without any considering put into what that actually does to those abilities. Shoulder Charge is the poster boy for this but HHSN is right there as well and there's others. There's a real lack of memory for how this stuff has literally played out before in exactly this game and a seemingly lack of consideration for what these abilities are even for anymore. Not only are these abilities going to be up much less often, they are now going to be kinda shit as well.

    And that gets into the other major issue with this shift because they didn't just make ability cooldowns longer, they seem to have almost across the board nerfed your ability to mitigate those long cooldowns. And all that's going to do is make existing problems with the balance of builds and loadouts within the sandbox worse. Cause when you look at your build after these changes, the question of what you are gonna build for is going to be even more obvious. You are going to equip stompees or ophidians or one-eye mask. You could dump all your mod slots and stats into trying to unshit one or two or your abilities, but why would you when that will leave you with no room for anything else and it's much easier to simply slap on a neutral game exotic, load up with targeting/scavenger/dexterity/etc mods and go to town. It's already what you do now and these changes are only going to make it worse. Coolguy actually had a great recent video on this here from only a few weeks ago and pointed out exactly this issue. They aren't just nerfing our abilities, they are nerfing our ability to build into our abilities. And that's only going to encourage players to invest in a small range or mods and exotics and stats even more and ignore more diverse ability-based builds and exotics.

    And as much as Bungie has been balancing more often, their track record on responding to any issues these could cause remains somewhat questionable imo. Especially when it comes to feedback. They've done good with make back-end system level changes in pursuit of their overall design but their reactive changes have not been as good. One need only look at what's happened to several parts of stasis over this year. Or what is still happening to Fighting Lion. It does not inspire confidence in their ability to recognize, acknowledge and deal with issues that pop up because of these changes. Now every ability gets the chance to maybe be Coldsnap grenade.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    The other thing that occurs to me is that this will likely only exacerbate the skill-gap in PvP. Cause when I think of what things lower-skill players use to secure kills, I think the list probably looks like:
    - special weapons (because they generally one-shot)
    - abilities (especially one-shot abilities)
    - supers

    The more you emphasize primary gun duels, the more often lower skill players are going to get 3-tapped to the face in 0.87 seconds by a stompee hunter bouncing around their screen as they try to land shots.

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  • PeenPeen tw1tch0rz occasionallyRegistered User regular
    Heads up for Xbox people, Xbox just put their Black Friday deals up and Beyond Light's half off, you can get it for $20.

    Local H Jay
  • DisrupterDisrupter Registered User regular
    Yeah I think less ability usage is bad. I’m for reducing the impact of abilities but they should be used MORE then, not less

    Jay said he doesn’t want fast weaker abilities but that’s exactly what I want. I want to open up with a nade then push a weak enemy. I feel like Currently it’s hit them with a ohk or use non ohk to finish but if you use an ability and don’t secure the kill the recovery time is too long and you die.

    Weaker abilities with lower cooldown will encourage me to use them a bit more blindly to try and soften. But they should also be less punishing to use, less time to ready weapons etc after ability usage

    Let me use them WITH my primary more and less all or nothing (arc buddy is the obvious outlier)

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  • Zombie GandhiZombie Gandhi Registered User regular
    Very curious about Surplus and Wellspring after these changes. I've gotten very attached to Surplus weapons recently, but wondering how potent Wellspring is for taking the edge off.

    In addition, Demolitionist seems like it is going up a tier.

  • PeenPeen tw1tch0rz occasionallyRegistered User regular
    I'm on the other end of the spectrum, I do want fewer abilities. I want to have to use them thoughtfully and in the right moments and have them make a real impact when I do. Also speaking frankly I do want the skill-gap to be real and I want to be able to express the skill I've gained, I don't think Destiny respects a lot of player skill and I know a lot of that is baked into the game and won't go away but I could do without pushing a hunter and having them explode in a cloud of three abilities at once, for example.

    Vladimer
  • CatalaseCatalase Registered User regular
    If I want a game focused on gunplay, there are far superior options to Destiny right now. Like, freaking TONNES of them. Some of them even have dedicated servers.

    What makes D2 unique is the combination of gunplay with abilities.

    "Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination."
  • ObiFettObiFett Use the Force As You WishRegistered User regular
    Catalase wrote: »
    If I want a game focused on gunplay, there are far superior options to Destiny right now. Like, freaking TONNES of them. Some of them even have dedicated servers.

    What makes D2 unique is the combination of gunplay with abilities.

    I'm not super high on Destiny right now, but its gunplay is absolutely top tier. I wouldn't say there are even a handful of superior options to Destiny in that regard.

    GMaster7Peen
  • DisrupterDisrupter Registered User regular
    Peen wrote: »
    I'm on the other end of the spectrum, I do want fewer abilities. I want to have to use them thoughtfully and in the right moments and have them make a real impact when I do. Also speaking frankly I do want the skill-gap to be real and I want to be able to express the skill I've gained, I don't think Destiny respects a lot of player skill and I know a lot of that is baked into the game and won't go away but I could do without pushing a hunter and having them explode in a cloud of three abilities at once, for example.

    My problem with “right moment” abilities is they become rng from the other perspective. If someone has a 4 min cooldown one hit kill ability and I engage them and it happens to be off cooldown I’m at a major disadvantage than if it isn’t.

    That’s not fun.

    Smaller impact but more common use abilities can be planned around from a counter play side.

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  • RaynagaRaynaga Registered User regular
    After my 3rd in a row no solo queue option 3 stack vs 3 randoms beatdown in Trials, I said fuck it and went to Halo Infinite and had a grand time. Super fun.

    They need to figure this shit out or they're going to lose players. Player count increased with the solo queue option according to [email protected] Sweaty youtubers complained and they removed it. Participation has dropped every week since.

    Its a punch in the dick to play 3 matches and get 0 points towards the weekly pinnacle. With the solo queue option it wasn't quite so bad.

    I don't think they realize the level of competition in the space right now.

    Knight_Feloniousmoz
  • GMaster7GMaster7 Goggles Paesano Registered User regular
    I just went to change the thread title to "Happy (Almost) Shanksgiving!" - but I couldn't hit post. Just... physically couldn't do it

    But I refuse to suffer with this madness alone, so now you have to know it too

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  • The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    Disrupter wrote: »
    Peen wrote: »
    I'm on the other end of the spectrum, I do want fewer abilities. I want to have to use them thoughtfully and in the right moments and have them make a real impact when I do. Also speaking frankly I do want the skill-gap to be real and I want to be able to express the skill I've gained, I don't think Destiny respects a lot of player skill and I know a lot of that is baked into the game and won't go away but I could do without pushing a hunter and having them explode in a cloud of three abilities at once, for example.

    My problem with “right moment” abilities is they become rng from the other perspective. If someone has a 4 min cooldown one hit kill ability and I engage them and it happens to be off cooldown I’m at a major disadvantage than if it isn’t.

    That’s not fun.

    Smaller impact but more common use abilities can be planned around from a counter play side.

    Flux grenade is definitely the change i'm leeriest about here - It's just not going to feel good to be on the receiving end of, and missing it is going to feel like arse.

    I'd say in the current sandbox stuff like Storm Grenade and most of the creates a static aoe for a while (Vortex/Solar/Pulse) are in good places - Storm Grenade is scary and does a lot of damage, and frankly, with high disc + double Grenade Kickstarters it's probably a bit too spammable. But it's not a one shot kill, it's got enough of a delay you have time to GTFO (or, conversely, you can predict and outplay people with it by baiting them to dodge into it's blast). So that's where i'd like to see most abilites land balance wise - feels good to use, has a notable effect, but isnt a "lolyoudead" type thing.

    My biggest concern with all of this is that while they're pushing us towards diversifying our builds and really engaging with the build system (A good thing), the tools on the player side arent there - stat distribution on armor is an awful, grindy mechanic overall, and the elemental system is pretty solid... save for it's immense material cost to change things and the lack of any way to save builds. Without any way to more actively alter your armor's stats, it's not a fun system to dig into (most notable with Exotics, which are hell to get the stat distribution you want).

    I also frankly get the impression that this patch is meant to break things and cause chaos because now is actually the perfect time - A couple of months to really see how things go, a new content patch to drive engagement, and then another major content patch to start adjust things according to feedback, complete with the start to big reworks of how subclasses work. (Very curious if the last season of next year might end up being a stasis 3.0 and adding extra stasis supers/greandes, etc. I'd welcome that)

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    They aren't pushing us towards diversifying our builds though. They are specifically doing the opposite. They are deliberately handicapping a whole section of the possible builds. They want to devalue all abilities in PvP which very obviously devalues all ability-based builds in PvP. The likely result is that builds will tilt even further towards non-ability-based exotics and the mods that support them. Shinobu Hunters become Stompeez Hunters.

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  • Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    edited November 20
    Flawless with Jones and Arteen!
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    And then again a few hours later!
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  • OwenashiOwenashi Registered User regular
    rpHB3hl.jpg

    The Thorn armor looks pretty nice in this new screenshot.

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  • ArteenArteen Adept ValeRegistered User regular
    That Thorn armor is definitely not my thing. But hopefully this emphasis on Thorn means we'll finally get a catalyst for it.

    Zombie GandhiPeenOpposingFarce
  • augustaugust where you come from is gone Registered User regular
    On thing that the sliding in Halo Infinite is emphasizing for me is that I hate the sliding in Destiny purely because of the way it looks. The exaggerated way your weapon bobs in Destiny is super distracting to me and makes me feel like I'm not in control of the character even though I'm pretty sure it's just a visual thing. It makes me slide less which makes me even worse at pvp then I already am.

  • OwenashiOwenashi Registered User regular
    edited November 20
    Arteen wrote: »
    That Thorn armor is definitely not my thing. But hopefully this emphasis on Thorn means we'll finally get a catalyst for it.

    I'm hoping to get more weapon-based armor. We got a Sparrow and Ghost Shell based on Hard Light but it'd be dope to have armor based on it too, complete with some sort of bubble set on it that'd change color based on the elemental class you're rocking at the moment.

    Owenashi on
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  • CatalaseCatalase Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    They aren't pushing us towards diversifying our builds though. They are specifically doing the opposite. They are deliberately handicapping a whole section of the possible builds. They want to devalue all abilities in PvP which very obviously devalues all ability-based builds in PvP. The likely result is that builds will tilt even further towards non-ability-based exotics and the mods that support them. Shinobu Hunters become Stompeez Hunters.
    100%. Why would I wasted exotic slot to build around an ability with a five minute uptime when I can run a neutral game exotic instead?

    "Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination."
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