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Turning Out a New Third Age [WoT TV show]

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  • SnicketysnickSnicketysnick The Greatest Hype Man in WesterosRegistered User regular
    Shadowhope wrote: »
    Rafe Judkins did an AMA on Reddit. Spoilers abound but he had some really great answers to a lot of questions.
    My personal favorite: Book 2 spoiler
    Who is playing Selene?
    Lanfear.

    The best answer in there (possible very minor spoilers about a certain horse who may or may not be more than she appears):

    Literally, everyone in horse department knows everything about Bela. There are many elderly czech men who have an eye on Bela's long-term arc in the show and they don't even know what the Wheel of Time is.

    YAAASS

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  • AegeriAegeri Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    I watched the first episode and thought it was pretty good. I'll probably watch the rest at some point, but I'm suitably intrigued so far.

    The Roleplayer's Guild: My blog for roleplaying games, advice and adventuring.
  • HellboreHellbore A bad, bad man Registered User regular
    For book readers wondering about certain changes, Judkins gave this answer
    ...I am sure you have seen a lot of fans of the books have had concerns about some changes, as I am sure you would have expected. However, a main one seems to be that a woman can be the dragon. Why was this change made if the Dragon is going to be the same anyway as it changes a lot in the world Jordan created e.g. the dragon if a woman can be trained by other woman in the tower etc, or touch Callandor.
    The change we made was not just with the fact that a woman could be the Dragon, the core change we made was that people are NOT 100% convinced that these 3000 year old prophecies are 100% accurate. I think it feels a little bit more true to the world, and you see the characters questioning the prophecies of the Dragon and the details of it much more in the show than in the books (although there are some scenes in the books that show this as well, we've just expanded on that). It seems quite trusting for the Aes Sedai, who trust no one, and especially Moiraine, who trusts less than no one, to believe with 100% certainty ANYTHING that was written thousands of years ago

    AegeriCidTheSquid
  • ReynoldsReynolds Gone Fishin'Registered User regular
    "I think it feels a little bit more true to the world" says person outvoted 3-1 by the people who actually created that world.

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    AridholNitsua
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Hellbore wrote: »
    For book readers wondering about certain changes, Judkins gave this answer
    ...I am sure you have seen a lot of fans of the books have had concerns about some changes, as I am sure you would have expected. However, a main one seems to be that a woman can be the dragon. Why was this change made if the Dragon is going to be the same anyway as it changes a lot in the world Jordan created e.g. the dragon if a woman can be trained by other woman in the tower etc, or touch Callandor.
    The change we made was not just with the fact that a woman could be the Dragon, the core change we made was that people are NOT 100% convinced that these 3000 year old prophecies are 100% accurate. I think it feels a little bit more true to the world, and you see the characters questioning the prophecies of the Dragon and the details of it much more in the show than in the books (although there are some scenes in the books that show this as well, we've just expanded on that). It seems quite trusting for the Aes Sedai, who trust no one, and especially Moiraine, who trusts less than no one, to believe with 100% certainty ANYTHING that was written thousands of years ago

    That honestly seems like an even more baffling reason to change it because it makes people's views on the Dragon make even less sense.

    JragghenAridholReynolds
  • AegeriAegeri Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    Considering that their response to a potential person being the Dragon is outright murder, yeah, it doesn't make a lot of sense.

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  • ShadowhopeShadowhope Baa. Registered User regular
    edited November 25
    My biggest complaint so far:

    The reaction to “one of you is the Dragon” is way too muted. Moiraine shouldn’t have said a word to any of them about the possibly of the Dragon, just that they were special and the Dark One wanted them. It should be like saying “One of you is the reincarnation of Judas x Attila x Genghis Khan x Robespierre x Stalin.” It should be a huge “holy fucking shit, which one of us it? One of us is literally the worst person ever!” sort of thing.

    The first season should have built up “the Dragon is serious fucking business” without even necessarily revealing that it’s one of the EF5 or even confirming that the Dragon is reborn, before dropping the hammer on that revelation. Instead, we kind of get a “huh, well that’s odd I suppose, but I don’t really see what all this fuss is about” reaction and then people go about their business without spending much time thinking about the massive (proverbial) fire breathing flying serpent in the room.

    Shadowhope on
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  • HellboreHellbore A bad, bad man Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Hellbore wrote: »
    For book readers wondering about certain changes, Judkins gave this answer
    ...I am sure you have seen a lot of fans of the books have had concerns about some changes, as I am sure you would have expected. However, a main one seems to be that a woman can be the dragon. Why was this change made if the Dragon is going to be the same anyway as it changes a lot in the world Jordan created e.g. the dragon if a woman can be trained by other woman in the tower etc, or touch Callandor.
    The change we made was not just with the fact that a woman could be the Dragon, the core change we made was that people are NOT 100% convinced that these 3000 year old prophecies are 100% accurate. I think it feels a little bit more true to the world, and you see the characters questioning the prophecies of the Dragon and the details of it much more in the show than in the books (although there are some scenes in the books that show this as well, we've just expanded on that). It seems quite trusting for the Aes Sedai, who trust no one, and especially Moiraine, who trusts less than no one, to believe with 100% certainty ANYTHING that was written thousands of years ago

    That honestly seems like an even more baffling reason to change it because it makes people's views on the Dragon make even less sense.

    My reading was that they didn't change it, just Moraine's personal interpretation,
    and I think that giving some skepticism to a collected, written account of several distinct oral prophecies, from thousands of years ago, and translated from a language that no one really speaks any more is a fine move.

    TofystedethCarpySmrtnikCidTheSquidMatev
  • NitsuaNitsua Gloucester, VARegistered User regular
    edited November 25
    Hellbore wrote: »
    For book readers wondering about certain changes, Judkins gave this answer
    ...I am sure you have seen a lot of fans of the books have had concerns about some changes, as I am sure you would have expected. However, a main one seems to be that a woman can be the dragon. Why was this change made if the Dragon is going to be the same anyway as it changes a lot in the world Jordan created e.g. the dragon if a woman can be trained by other woman in the tower etc, or touch Callandor.
    The change we made was not just with the fact that a woman could be the Dragon, the core change we made was that people are NOT 100% convinced that these 3000 year old prophecies are 100% accurate. I think it feels a little bit more true to the world, and you see the characters questioning the prophecies of the Dragon and the details of it much more in the show than in the books (although there are some scenes in the books that show this as well, we've just expanded on that). It seems quite trusting for the Aes Sedai, who trust no one, and especially Moiraine, who trusts less than no one, to believe with 100% certainty ANYTHING that was written thousands of years ago
    I’m going to hard disagree here, this proves that they aren’t as Up on the books and a Lore as they claim to be. Moraine is NOT only going on thousands of years old prophecies, she’s literally going off the words of a foretelling given at the moment of the Dragon’s birth by Gitara Moroso: “ He is born again! I feel him! The Dragon takes his first breath on the slopes of Dragonmount! He is coming! He is coming! Light help us! Light help the world! He lies in the snow and cries like the thunder! He burns like the sun!”

    This is what set her foot to the path of seeking out the Dragon Reborn and searching through the Prophecies for more information on the Dragon. And she KNEW he would be male because foretelling is a Talent and Gitara the strongest at foretelling that any Aes Sedai Alive was aware of at the time and foretellings are 100% Fact, same as the prophecies since that is where those came from too - they weren’t just accepted at face value, they saw their validity over time Time and time again.

    And things like this are Why a number of us are having a hard time believing the show runners have thought this through nor the ramifications of it. Yes, Aes Sedai don’t trust every bit of gossip that comes their way, but they do believe in facts and they know, scientifically (or by the power if you will) that foretellings are fact and that one was as it was happening fact.

    So, again, hard disagree, and they only really needed to do a very small amount of research to learn this, let alone be hardcore into the books as they claim they are.

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  • ShadowhopeShadowhope Baa. Registered User regular
    edited November 25
    Nitsua wrote: »



    Hellbore wrote: »
    For book readers wondering about certain changes, Judkins gave this answer
    ...I am sure you have seen a lot of fans of the books have had concerns about some changes, as I am sure you would have expected. However, a main one seems to be that a woman can be the dragon. Why was this change made if the Dragon is going to be the same anyway as it changes a lot in the world Jordan created e.g. the dragon if a woman can be trained by other woman in the tower etc, or touch Callandor.
    The change we made was not just with the fact that a woman could be the Dragon, the core change we made was that people are NOT 100% convinced that these 3000 year old prophecies are 100% accurate. I think it feels a little bit more true to the world, and you see the characters questioning the prophecies of the Dragon and the details of it much more in the show than in the books (although there are some scenes in the books that show this as well, we've just expanded on that). It seems quite trusting for the Aes Sedai, who trust no one, and especially Moiraine, who trusts less than no one, to believe with 100% certainty ANYTHING that was written thousands of years ago

    I’m going to hard disagree here, this proves that they aren’t as Up on the books and a Lore as they claim to be. Moraine is NOT only going on thousands of years old prophecies, she’s literally going off the words of a foretelling given at the moment of the Dragon’s birth by Gitara Moroso: “ He is born again! I feel him! The Dragon takes his first breath on the slopes of Dragonmount! He is coming! He is coming! Light help us! Light help the world! He lies in the snow and cries like the thunder! He burns like the sun!”

    This is what set her foot to the path of seeking out the Dragon Reborn and searching through the Prophecies for more information on the Dragon. And she KNEW he would be male because foretelling is a Talent and Gitara the strongest at foretelling that any Aes Sedai Alive was aware of at the time and foretellings are 100% Fact, same as the prophecies since that is where those came from too - they weren’t just accepted at face value, they saw their validity over time Time and time again.

    And things like this are Why a number of us are having a hard time believing the show runners have thought this through nor the ramifications of it. Yes, Aes Sedai don’t trust every bit of gossip that comes their way, but they do believe in facts and they know, scientifically (or by the power if you will) that foretellings are fact and that one was as it was happening fact.

    So, again, hard disagree, and they only really needed to do a very small amount of research to learn this, let alone be hardcore into the books as they claim they are.

    Unless of course in this version of the Third Age

    Gitara Moroso said “they” instead of “he.”

    That’d muddy the waters!

    Shadowhope on
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  • ReynoldsReynolds Gone Fishin'Registered User regular
    That only handles the first issue and not the second. And it'd be odd to not believe something you were there to see.

    And then if they didn't see that and only heard/read about it, we're back to just swapping dominos for no reason. "I changed it because I feel like I know better than the three creators."

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    Nitsua
  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    If they changed it to “they” it goes right back to the original problem, where instead of it being a change to how people interpret prophecy it’s just a fundamental lore change they made for the show

    They’re trying to have their cake and eat it; either they intentionally made major changes from the books and they should just own up to it, or they didn’t really know WTF they were doing when they adapted the story

    shrykeReynoldsNitsuaAridholLanlaorn
  • SleepSleep Registered User regular
    Shadowhope wrote: »
    Nitsua wrote: »



    Hellbore wrote: »
    For book readers wondering about certain changes, Judkins gave this answer
    ...I am sure you have seen a lot of fans of the books have had concerns about some changes, as I am sure you would have expected. However, a main one seems to be that a woman can be the dragon. Why was this change made if the Dragon is going to be the same anyway as it changes a lot in the world Jordan created e.g. the dragon if a woman can be trained by other woman in the tower etc, or touch Callandor.
    The change we made was not just with the fact that a woman could be the Dragon, the core change we made was that people are NOT 100% convinced that these 3000 year old prophecies are 100% accurate. I think it feels a little bit more true to the world, and you see the characters questioning the prophecies of the Dragon and the details of it much more in the show than in the books (although there are some scenes in the books that show this as well, we've just expanded on that). It seems quite trusting for the Aes Sedai, who trust no one, and especially Moiraine, who trusts less than no one, to believe with 100% certainty ANYTHING that was written thousands of years ago

    I’m going to hard disagree here, this proves that they aren’t as Up on the books and a Lore as they claim to be. Moraine is NOT only going on thousands of years old prophecies, she’s literally going off the words of a foretelling given at the moment of the Dragon’s birth by Gitara Moroso: “ He is born again! I feel him! The Dragon takes his first breath on the slopes of Dragonmount! He is coming! He is coming! Light help us! Light help the world! He lies in the snow and cries like the thunder! He burns like the sun!”

    This is what set her foot to the path of seeking out the Dragon Reborn and searching through the Prophecies for more information on the Dragon. And she KNEW he would be male because foretelling is a Talent and Gitara the strongest at foretelling that any Aes Sedai Alive was aware of at the time and foretellings are 100% Fact, same as the prophecies since that is where those came from too - they weren’t just accepted at face value, they saw their validity over time Time and time again.

    And things like this are Why a number of us are having a hard time believing the show runners have thought this through nor the ramifications of it. Yes, Aes Sedai don’t trust every bit of gossip that comes their way, but they do believe in facts and they know, scientifically (or by the power if you will) that foretellings are fact and that one was as it was happening fact.

    So, again, hard disagree, and they only really needed to do a very small amount of research to learn this, let alone be hardcore into the books as they claim they are.

    Unless of course in this version of the Third Age

    Gitara Moroso said “they” instead of “he.”

    That’d muddy the waters!


    Under the idea that the cyclical rebirth is not always the same gender he being reborn doesn’t limit what they are now.

    Also throughout the books people regularly question the prophecies of the dragon and reinterpret them differently and incorrectly. Sometimes the question about a prophecy of the dragon is “what the fuck does this prophecy even mean?”

    MahnmutCidTheSquid
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    If they changed it to “they” it goes right back to the original problem, where instead of it being a change to how people interpret prophecy it’s just a fundamental lore change they made for the show

    They’re trying to have their cake and eat it; either they intentionally made major changes from the books and they should just own up to it, or they didn’t really know WTF they were doing when they adapted the story

    That's why I think, like a lot of other changes they've made, this was actually entirely about changes they think will make the show sell better. You can see this in the changes to Mat and Perrin's backgrounds. Or in changes to the Whitecloaks and what they are doing. Or in the way they try to immediately establish the Dragon stuff from the word go or rush through straight to the Trolloc attack in only 1 episode so people don't get bored or something.

    I think it's probably entirely about wanting to establish some Big Mystery for this season to revolve around (ie - Who Is The Dragon?) and some belief that this change allows them to (book spoilers):
    more firmly tie Egwene into that mystery.

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  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    Yeah the whole thing reeks of somebody high up caring less about a faithful adaptation than how it focus tests

    ReynoldsGnome-InterruptusNitsuaAridhol
  • ApogeeApogee Lancks In Every Game Ever Registered User regular
    To be fair the books *do* start very slowly. I'm not at all surprised they tweaked it to try and hook people faster, although I'm not entirely on board with the decisions made (i.e. the prophecy stuff). I figure the show will get things more or less as per the books by the end of season 1.

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  • AegeriAegeri Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    Just out of curiosity, but was something from the first episode from the book:
    I didn't think Wheel of Time was as grimdark as say Game of Thrones, but murdering your own wife by accident during the Trollock attack seems to be pretty grimdark. Maybe I am mischaracterizing what I understood about the books though

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  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    No, that’s definitely way more grimdark than the books.

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  • TofystedethTofystedeth Registered User regular
    I mean, the prologue of the first book
    has a guy killing his entire family. Literally everyone with a drop of his blood. Everyone who he ever loved and who ever loved him. And then he kills himself.
    Call it fridging all you want, that's justified, but saying a tragic accident that happens all the time (how many people die in the U.S. when they shoot a home invader that turns out to be a family member?) is grimdark just dilutes the word.

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  • IncindiumIncindium Registered User regular
    edited November 25
    Listening to the audiobook of Eye of the World again after having watched the show and the book is way more grim dark than the show.

    The first book they are talking about spring not happening and wolves moving in on people living outside of their little town. It starts pretty grim. The Dark One's touch on the world is something that people are seeing and feeling in their regular lives.

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  • Raiden333Raiden333 Registered User regular
    Aegeri wrote: »
    Just out of curiosity, but was something from the first episode from the book:
    I didn't think Wheel of Time was as grimdark as say Game of Thrones, but murdering your own wife by axe-ident during the Trollock attack seems to be pretty grimdark. Maybe I am mischaracterizing what I understood about the books though

    Fixed that for ya there

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  • Atlas in ChainsAtlas in Chains Registered User regular
    Shit happens in WoT that still haunts me to this day. It's not as pervasive throughout the series, but it's there and it's rough at times.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    One thing I wanna say in general is that this show is real sloppy about details when it comes to translating things from the books to the show. And I don't mean in terms of changing things (although it changes so many things), but in terms of things it doesn't change but just doesn't try and really get right either.

    Like there's quite a few times already in just 3 episodes where someone is referring to something by the generic name rather then the name that said character would actually use for that thing.

    Just a lot of little things that feel like a lack of attention to details that would be obvious to someone who knew the books well.

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  • AegeriAegeri Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    Raiden333 wrote: »
    Aegeri wrote: »
    Just out of curiosity, but was something from the first episode from the book:
    I didn't think Wheel of Time was as grimdark as say Game of Thrones, but murdering your own wife by axe-ident during the Trollock attack seems to be pretty grimdark. Maybe I am mischaracterizing what I understood about the books though

    Fixed that for ya there

    Look, I am man enough to know when I got it wrong. I appreciate the correction.

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  • IncindiumIncindium Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    One thing I wanna say in general is that this show is real sloppy about details when it comes to translating things from the books to the show. And I don't mean in terms of changing things (although it changes so many things), but in terms of things it doesn't change but just doesn't try and really get right either.

    Like there's quite a few times already in just 3 episodes where someone is referring to something by the generic name rather then the name that said character would actually use for that thing.

    Just a lot of little things that feel like a lack of attention to details that would be obvious to someone who knew the books well.

    Like what? I really don't think changes made are a lack of attention to detail but an attempt to make it more accessible to people who haven't read the books.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited November 25
    Incindium wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    One thing I wanna say in general is that this show is real sloppy about details when it comes to translating things from the books to the show. And I don't mean in terms of changing things (although it changes so many things), but in terms of things it doesn't change but just doesn't try and really get right either.

    Like there's quite a few times already in just 3 episodes where someone is referring to something by the generic name rather then the name that said character would actually use for that thing.

    Just a lot of little things that feel like a lack of attention to details that would be obvious to someone who knew the books well.

    Like what? I really don't think changes made are a lack of attention to detail but an attempt to make it more accessible to people who haven't read the books.

    That's my point. They aren't changes, they are just details they don't get right in things they don't change.

    eg -
    Questioners would never refer to themselves as such and would view others referring to them as such as a insult. The kind of insults other Whitecloaks would not want to commit.

    Darkfriends wouldn't refer to the Dark One as the Dark One. That's a term used by non-darkfriends.

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  • IncindiumIncindium Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Incindium wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    One thing I wanna say in general is that this show is real sloppy about details when it comes to translating things from the books to the show. And I don't mean in terms of changing things (although it changes so many things), but in terms of things it doesn't change but just doesn't try and really get right either.

    Like there's quite a few times already in just 3 episodes where someone is referring to something by the generic name rather then the name that said character would actually use for that thing.

    Just a lot of little things that feel like a lack of attention to details that would be obvious to someone who knew the books well.

    Like what? I really don't think changes made are a lack of attention to detail but an attempt to make it more accessible to people who haven't read the books.

    That's my point. They aren't changes, they are just details they don't get right in things they don't change.

    eg -
    Questioners would never refer to themselves as such and would view others referring to them as such as a insult. The kind of insults other Whitecloaks would not want to commit.

    Darkfriends wouldn't refer to the Dark One as the Dark One. That's a term used by non-darkfriends.

    Yeah that's exactly the kind of stuff you simplify for a conversion to the big or small screen. Having two terms meaning the same thing is to confusing for the viewer who has no knowledge of the material.

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  • TofystedethTofystedeth Registered User regular
    edited November 25
    I think those are probably deliberate choices to simplify stuff to ease people in. One of the big complaints a lot of people have about the books is how it just throws a bunch of foreign words at you right away. For some people it's no big deal, for others it gets in the way. Especially in television where you hear the word instead of just reading it, it's sometimes easier to miss fine details like that.
    Like, in the show, they've only referred to myrdraal as Fades and Eyeless so far, but think how many different names for just them that we hear of in Andor alone in book 1, before getting into what different cultures call them.

    The Dark One is similar, with dozens of pseudonyms. Though I do think the distinction between who uses The Dark One and who uses The Great Lord of the Dark is an important one.

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  • Gnome-InterruptusGnome-Interruptus Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    One thing I wanna say in general is that this show is real sloppy about details when it comes to translating things from the books to the show. And I don't mean in terms of changing things (although it changes so many things), but in terms of things it doesn't change but just doesn't try and really get right either.

    Like there's quite a few times already in just 3 episodes where someone is referring to something by the generic name rather then the name that said character would actually use for that thing.

    Just a lot of little things that feel like a lack of attention to details that would be obvious to someone who knew the books well.

    I just remembered an excellent example of the shows failed world building.

    In episode 3:
    When Perrin and Egwene meet the Tinkers, and the Tinkers keep saying all the names associated with them while Perrin and Egwene just sit there dumbfounded and not having a clue.

    In the books, Perrin and Egwene know damn well what a Tinker is, as well as their unsavory reputation, as well as their more prized traits.

    So why in the hell would the Tinkers keep calling themselves all these strange names that the show watchers will have no idea WTF they are, and also have the audience surrogate characters act the same way? Only the book readers will have any idea WTF is going on, but the scene is so hamfisted you want to throw a pillow at the screen.

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  • IncindiumIncindium Registered User regular
    Calling that failed world building seems to be making a mountain out of a molehill.

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  • HellboreHellbore A bad, bad man Registered User regular
    Nitsua wrote: »
    Hellbore wrote: »
    For book readers wondering about certain changes, Judkins gave this answer
    ...I am sure you have seen a lot of fans of the books have had concerns about some changes, as I am sure you would have expected. However, a main one seems to be that a woman can be the dragon. Why was this change made if the Dragon is going to be the same anyway as it changes a lot in the world Jordan created e.g. the dragon if a woman can be trained by other woman in the tower etc, or touch Callandor.
    The change we made was not just with the fact that a woman could be the Dragon, the core change we made was that people are NOT 100% convinced that these 3000 year old prophecies are 100% accurate. I think it feels a little bit more true to the world, and you see the characters questioning the prophecies of the Dragon and the details of it much more in the show than in the books (although there are some scenes in the books that show this as well, we've just expanded on that). It seems quite trusting for the Aes Sedai, who trust no one, and especially Moiraine, who trusts less than no one, to believe with 100% certainty ANYTHING that was written thousands of years ago
    I’m going to hard disagree here, this proves that they aren’t as Up on the books and a Lore as they claim to be. Moraine is NOT only going on thousands of years old prophecies, she’s literally going off the words of a foretelling given at the moment of the Dragon’s birth by Gitara Moroso: “ He is born again! I feel him! The Dragon takes his first breath on the slopes of Dragonmount! He is coming! He is coming! Light help us! Light help the world! He lies in the snow and cries like the thunder! He burns like the sun!”

    This is what set her foot to the path of seeking out the Dragon Reborn and searching through the Prophecies for more information on the Dragon. And she KNEW he would be male because foretelling is a Talent and Gitara the strongest at foretelling that any Aes Sedai Alive was aware of at the time and foretellings are 100% Fact, same as the prophecies since that is where those came from too - they weren’t just accepted at face value, they saw their validity over time Time and time again.

    And things like this are Why a number of us are having a hard time believing the show runners have thought this through nor the ramifications of it. Yes, Aes Sedai don’t trust every bit of gossip that comes their way, but they do believe in facts and they know, scientifically (or by the power if you will) that foretellings are fact and that one was as it was happening fact.

    So, again, hard disagree, and they only really needed to do a very small amount of research to learn this, let alone be hardcore into the books as they claim they are.

    I really hate the client on mobile phone, I’m so used to the iPad desktop browser client.

    Book stuff
    Gitara's foretelling is;

    "He is born again! I feel him! The Dragon takes his first breath on the slopes of Dragonmount! He is coming! He is coming! Light help us! Light help the world! He lies in the snow and cries like the thunder! He burns like the sun!"

    The "He" there could easily be referring to Lews Therin, regardless of the reincarnation's gender. I still think changing only Moraine to not take Foretellings and prophecies literally changes almost nothing important.

    SleepApogeeHydropoloCidTheSquid
  • Atlas in ChainsAtlas in Chains Registered User regular
    Incindium wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Incindium wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    One thing I wanna say in general is that this show is real sloppy about details when it comes to translating things from the books to the show. And I don't mean in terms of changing things (although it changes so many things), but in terms of things it doesn't change but just doesn't try and really get right either.

    Like there's quite a few times already in just 3 episodes where someone is referring to something by the generic name rather then the name that said character would actually use for that thing.

    Just a lot of little things that feel like a lack of attention to details that would be obvious to someone who knew the books well.

    Like what? I really don't think changes made are a lack of attention to detail but an attempt to make it more accessible to people who haven't read the books.

    That's my point. They aren't changes, they are just details they don't get right in things they don't change.

    eg -
    Questioners would never refer to themselves as such and would view others referring to them as such as a insult. The kind of insults other Whitecloaks would not want to commit.

    Darkfriends wouldn't refer to the Dark One as the Dark One. That's a term used by non-darkfriends.

    Yeah that's exactly the kind of stuff you simplify for a conversion to the big or small screen. Having two terms meaning the same thing is to confusing for the viewer who has no knowledge of the material.

    2 isn't a complicated or difficult number. If the audience can't be trusted with 2, imagine trying to portray
    Rand's love life.

    ReynoldsNitsuashrykePailryderMatev
  • ArchangleArchangle Registered User regular
    Incindium wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Incindium wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    One thing I wanna say in general is that this show is real sloppy about details when it comes to translating things from the books to the show. And I don't mean in terms of changing things (although it changes so many things), but in terms of things it doesn't change but just doesn't try and really get right either.

    Like there's quite a few times already in just 3 episodes where someone is referring to something by the generic name rather then the name that said character would actually use for that thing.

    Just a lot of little things that feel like a lack of attention to details that would be obvious to someone who knew the books well.

    Like what? I really don't think changes made are a lack of attention to detail but an attempt to make it more accessible to people who haven't read the books.

    That's my point. They aren't changes, they are just details they don't get right in things they don't change.

    eg -
    Questioners would never refer to themselves as such and would view others referring to them as such as a insult. The kind of insults other Whitecloaks would not want to commit.

    Darkfriends wouldn't refer to the Dark One as the Dark One. That's a term used by non-darkfriends.

    Yeah that's exactly the kind of stuff you simplify for a conversion to the big or small screen. Having two terms meaning the same thing is to confusing for the viewer who has no knowledge of the material.

    2 isn't a complicated or difficult number. If the audience can't be trusted with 2, imagine trying to portray
    Rand's love life.
    Oh, that item in the spoiler is easy!
    MV5BOTY2NDY4OGUtYWE0Ni00NWZiLWI3NDktYmE2YWM3Njc3YmRkXkEyXkFqcGdeQXVyMTIxOTU1MjQ3._V1_.jpg

    SmrtnikAridholRhesus Positivechrono_travellerboogedybooMatev
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited November 25
    Incindium wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Incindium wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    One thing I wanna say in general is that this show is real sloppy about details when it comes to translating things from the books to the show. And I don't mean in terms of changing things (although it changes so many things), but in terms of things it doesn't change but just doesn't try and really get right either.

    Like there's quite a few times already in just 3 episodes where someone is referring to something by the generic name rather then the name that said character would actually use for that thing.

    Just a lot of little things that feel like a lack of attention to details that would be obvious to someone who knew the books well.

    Like what? I really don't think changes made are a lack of attention to detail but an attempt to make it more accessible to people who haven't read the books.

    That's my point. They aren't changes, they are just details they don't get right in things they don't change.

    eg -
    Questioners would never refer to themselves as such and would view others referring to them as such as a insult. The kind of insults other Whitecloaks would not want to commit.

    Darkfriends wouldn't refer to the Dark One as the Dark One. That's a term used by non-darkfriends.

    Yeah that's exactly the kind of stuff you simplify for a conversion to the big or small screen. Having two terms meaning the same thing is to confusing for the viewer who has no knowledge of the material.

    People are more then capable of understanding this stuff from context. Unless your plan is to write specifically for the dumbest of the dumb and deliberately spell out every single thing for them in laborious detail.

    EDIT: And they dropped ta'veren in the opening scene and still haven't explained wtf that means like 3 episodes later.

    shryke on
    ReynoldsAtlas in ChainsPailryderNitsua
  • AridholAridhol Daddliest Catch Registered User regular
    edited November 25
    Incindium wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Incindium wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    One thing I wanna say in general is that this show is real sloppy about details when it comes to translating things from the books to the show. And I don't mean in terms of changing things (although it changes so many things), but in terms of things it doesn't change but just doesn't try and really get right either.

    Like there's quite a few times already in just 3 episodes where someone is referring to something by the generic name rather then the name that said character would actually use for that thing.

    Just a lot of little things that feel like a lack of attention to details that would be obvious to someone who knew the books well.

    Like what? I really don't think changes made are a lack of attention to detail but an attempt to make it more accessible to people who haven't read the books.

    That's my point. They aren't changes, they are just details they don't get right in things they don't change.

    eg -
    Questioners would never refer to themselves as such and would view others referring to them as such as a insult. The kind of insults other Whitecloaks would not want to commit.

    Darkfriends wouldn't refer to the Dark One as the Dark One. That's a term used by non-darkfriends.

    Yeah that's exactly the kind of stuff you simplify for a conversion to the big or small screen. Having two terms meaning the same thing is to confusing for the viewer who has no knowledge of the material.
    Having a darkfriend say "the dark one" instead of the WAY BETTER "Great Lord of the Dark" isn't making it more accessible. It's making it stupid.

    Edit:
    It has to be said again though, the actress that played the darkfriend was amazing and loved all those scenes.

    I think we have to give some perspective to the complaints here. None of this stuff so far will keep me from watching the show but it isn't raising my hopes that's all.

    I still think it's good and deserves the 7ish rating it has which truth be told is pretty good for a first season fantasy show.

    Aridhol on
    shrykeReynoldsGnome-InterruptusNitsua
  • TaramoorTaramoor Storyteller Registered User regular
    edited November 25
    Episode 3 watched

    Loved most of it, a few nitpickems.

    Loved [includes book stuff]:
    Nynaeve and Lan. Every moment with the two of them together was equal parts magic and hilarious.

    Thom. Excellent cowboy aesthetic they’ve given him. I wanted to see the cloak, the harp, and the flute, but those aren’t a huge deal in the grand scheme of things. It occurred to me while I was watching it that Thom really doesn’t do a whole lot before Whitebridge except teach the boys how to juggle. The burial of the Aeil and pointing out the red hair was great, nice that they didn’t have Mat say something like “Rand has hair like that” and hamfist the point.

    Rand and Mat. Good dynamic here, especially before they get to town. I know Mat’s descent into shitty possessed person is going to happen super fast, because television, but I hope they can hold off and slow play it for at least a couple more episodes.

    The Tua’tha’an. Nice bright colors, a lot of small details in the camp for book nerds to wallow in. No mention of the Way of the Leaf, but that might come later or not at all. It’s kind of important, so I hope they don’t cut it.

    Thom’s song. I love that it could easily be read as applying to Thom, Rand, or Mat, and it’s a catchy little tune. I love that they seem to be using the songs to drive home character points and exposition rather than just “because they were in the book” Hopefully they can have more than one or two songs.

    Dana. Loved how charming and sarcastic she was. A good sell to contrast that with the Children from the previous episode who were far more upfront about being terrible. Darkfriends get in trouble when they say “The Dark One”, but a nice mention of orders and information coming through dreams.

    Egwene and Perrin, the fire lighting moment was nice, but everything else felt a tad blah, and I actually got lost in that one overhead shot of them running from the wolves. Couldn’t parse what I was looking at, which sucked because everything else has been shot so meticulously.

    That one match cut, holy shit.

    Nits [includes book stuff]:
    Biomes seem disorganized. They’re separated for a day and suddenly Rand and Mat are atop a mountain or at the bottom of a quarry, Egg and Pear are in a barren tundra, and Moiraine, Alan,and Nynaeve are in a rainforest?

    No mention of the endless winter, the Dark One touching the world.

    Rand hulk-busting through a door was nice, but I rather liked the lightning strike from the book. I guess it would’ve been a little obvious though.

    Thom’s moustaches are not the least bit pull-able. I demand a refund.

    The Dark One wanting to break the wheel didn’t seem to be common knowledge in the book. Dark friends took the oaths for money or power or revenge or as a joke until they suddenly met a Fade in person. I guess it’s not impossible but it seemed odd.

    The Dark One and the Forsaken are not unknowns. The way she name-dropped Ishamael was odd. A big part of the first book is that the myths are wrong and say the Dark One and all the Forsaken were sealed by the Creator at the moment of Creation.

    Even more on board now.

    Taramoor on
    nUzGRMY.gif
    twitch.tv/Taramoor
    @TaramoorPlays
    MahnmutShadowhopeGnome-InterruptusApogeePailryderArdol
  • SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Fuck Warren Ellis Registered User regular
    After the first three eps I think I'm going to give this one more episode to win me over. There are hints at some interesting stuff in here but the series feels like it's unsuccessfully trying to punch above its weight class. That said, the acting has by and large been quite good.

    I don't really like the settings and everything just feels way too clean for a fantasy romp. The effects in general are also, like, really bad. I very nearly turned it off in the first episode when wizard-lady was doing that air-bending silliness. That looked like something out of early aughts Buffy the Vampire Slayer - not a huge budget Amazon production.

    But, again, the acting is solid and that's really the most important part.

    Shadowhope
  • MahnmutMahnmut Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    One thing I wanna say in general is that this show is real sloppy about details when it comes to translating things from the books to the show. And I don't mean in terms of changing things (although it changes so many things), but in terms of things it doesn't change but just doesn't try and really get right either.

    Like there's quite a few times already in just 3 episodes where someone is referring to something by the generic name rather then the name that said character would actually use for that thing.

    Just a lot of little things that feel like a lack of attention to details that would be obvious to someone who knew the books well.

    I just remembered an excellent example of the shows failed world building.

    In episode 3:
    When Perrin and Egwene meet the Tinkers, and the Tinkers keep saying all the names associated with them while Perrin and Egwene just sit there dumbfounded and not having a clue.

    In the books, Perrin and Egwene know damn well what a Tinker is, as well as their unsavory reputation, as well as their more prized traits.

    So why in the hell would the Tinkers keep calling themselves all these strange names that the show watchers will have no idea WTF they are, and also have the audience surrogate characters act the same way? Only the book readers will have any idea WTF is going on, but the scene is so hamfisted you want to throw a pillow at the screen.

    Oh you know, I could be wrong, but in episode 3
    I don’t know that Egwene and Perrin have never heard of Tinkers , just really shell shocked and not at all expecting Tinkers— Aram was being more sarcastic than helpful with synonyms? I am curious to see what details fall out or don’t in episode 4 when the kids are more verbal

    Steam/LoL: Jericho89
    Smrtnik
  • TofystedethTofystedeth Registered User regular
    Yeah the big sweeping movement they're using for some of the channeling is one of my least favorite changes. I understand they have to make it look like she's doing something for TV audiences, but it's too much.

    steam_sig.png
    Reynolds
  • SleepSleep Registered User regular
    edited November 25
    Wait am I the only one here that realized that’s what tower channeling looked like all this time? Like Jordan did a terrible job conveying it, but
    they mention it a few times throughout the series that tower channeling looks fuckin dumb. Like all other channeling disciplines look at the aes sedi and say, “uh you know you don’t necessarily have to do all the hand motions and shit right? You can just do the weave in your head while standing still.” The big dumb movements in fact make them worse channelers, and are a series long indictment of the aes sedi. They admonish not using the dumb hand movements in their training because the movements are a tradition they hold to kind of blindly even when it leads to bad outcomes.

    Sleep on
    IlpalaIncindiumJragghenSmrtnikApogeePailryderHappylilElfCidTheSquid
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