As was foretold, we've added advertisements to the forums! If you have questions, or if you encounter any bugs, please visit this thread: https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/240191/forum-advertisement-faq-and-reports-thread/

Turning Out a New Third Age [WoT TV show]

2456724

Posts

  • 38thDoe38thDoe lets never be stupid again wait lets always be stupid foreverRegistered User regular
    I mean if the Dark One really wanted to win maybe poison both pools? And that one other pool?

    Smrtnik
  • CptHamiltonCptHamilton Registered User regular
    38thDoe wrote: »
    I sunk a ton of time into reading these and then rereading them when the new ones finally came out but I dropped off somewhere in college. This guy really needed an editor. There was a lot of reused material in the books, like starting every book with a long section about the wind and the wheel. From reading interviews with other authors I guess they are pressured to make every book approachable to people who haven't read any of the series but that seems insane to me. Who would think to start reading in book 6 skipping the first 6,000 pages or so. Ultimately the best thing that came out of the Wheel of Time is this person's summaries.

    https://three-degrees-below-social.tumblr.com/post/107520367078/isams-wheel-of-time-summary-the-eye-of-the
    Lanfear: I’m just your average flawlessly beautiful woman trapped in an alternate world. This is my disquise, which is not quite as flawlessly beautiful as I actually am.

    Rand: Sounds good to me. Join us.

    Lanfear: I like powerful men. My favorite is the Great Lord of the Dark.

    Rand: Did you say something?

    Lanfear: No. Go Light.

    ————
    Moiraine: My brilliant theory about The Prophecy of the Dragon is that you need to wage war against Illian, because ‘The People of the Dragon’ obviously are the people of Tear. Also, you need to wear a yellow pointed party hat, because that is my understanding of the line “He will bring war.”

    Rand: I have a different interpretation of The Prophecy of the Dragon.

    Moiraine: What would you know about The Prophecy of the Dragon? You’re merely the Dragon Reborn, while I am a busybody.

    Rand: You haven’t been helping me out a lot lately. You didn’t give me any advice in Fal Dara – instead, you ignored me, and after Falme, you said I should simply “wait for the Pattern.”

    Moiraine: That’s what good advisors do. Give advice once a year. And the advice that we do give is poorly thought-out and incorrect.

    Rand: My instinct tells me I should go my own way again.

    Moiriane: That will lead to disaster.

    Rand: It was a disaster when I went to Tear, and took Callandor?

    Moiraine: Yes. That was a disaster because it made me look like an idiot for not advising you to do anything, then being angry when you did something.

    Rand: Well, these are disastrous times.

    ————-
    Rand: Too bad no one killed Couladin when we had the chance.

    Rhuarc: That would violate ji’e’toh.

    Rand: ji’e’toh restricts you from stopping madmen warlords?

    Rhuarc: Yes. The rule is madmen warlords can try to kill you, and everyone near you, and everyone else who isn’t near you, and everyone they know, and everyone they thought was looking at them funny.

    Rand: What does ji’e’toh let me do?

    Rhuarc: You can mutter under your breath.

    Rand: Shaido dogs.

    Rhuarc: Now you’re getting it.

    I started reading the Harry Potter books on the 4th one. They were getting wildly popular around the 3rd one and I was curious what this thick-ass book my little sister was reading was about, so I read it after she finished it. I enjoyed it enough to keep reading the ones after but not enough to go back and read the first 3.

    I forget what one but I started some other series on like book 2 or 3 because I thought I'd bought the first one and, in fact, had accidentally bought a later one. I believe in that case I did go back and read the earlier one(s) afterward.

    Having an editor is how authors end up re-explaining things and recapping previous books in series, because the editor says, "You need to explain what the fuck you're talking about here for people who either haven't read the previous books or read them over the span of the last decade and don't remember."

    I don't think WoT was especially egregious about it. I've read some fantasy series where there's seriously dozens of pages of just straight-up, "Previously on..." recap exposition at the head of each book. The whole wind and the wheel thing at the start of each book was like a page or two, and differed between books.

    PSN,Steam,Live | CptHamiltonian
    SmrtnikElvenshae
  • MancingtomMancingtom Registered User regular
    The thing about Wheel of Time is that it’s super progressive…for the mid-1980s.

    Most of the problematic aspects can be toned down or removed entirely without compromising narrative structure or themes.

    CptHamiltonSleepJragghenSnicketysnickTofystedethFencingsaxShadowhopeWho-PsydElvenshaeKanaGnome-InterruptusCantidestopgapBlackDragon480
  • TofystedethTofystedeth Registered User regular
    38thDoe wrote: »
    I sunk a ton of time into reading these and then rereading them when the new ones finally came out but I dropped off somewhere in college. This guy really needed an editor. There was a lot of reused material in the books, like starting every book with a long section about the wind and the wheel.
    Yes the books were very long and could have used some paring down especially in the middle but you're complaining about a couple paragraphs that get used to set the tone of a thousand page book.
    The intro was not in any way the problem.

    steam_sig.png
    CptHamiltonMancingtomJragghenApogeeFencingsaxReynoldsshrykeSmrtnikElvenshaeKanaGnome-InterruptusMoridin889DamnItCohaagenCantidechrono_traveller
  • HydropoloHydropolo Registered User regular
    One of the trailers indicated that Moiraine thought ANY of the 5 kids could be the dragon, implication being that Egwene and Nyneave are both Ta'vereen (as well that the dragon could be female).

    I would absolutely 100% laugh myself silly at the aneurysms that a lot of sexist folks would have if they made Egwene or Nyneave the dragon instead in this series.

    ApogeeMancingtomSleepFencingsaxSmrtnikCidTheSquidMoridin889BlackDragon480boogedyboo
  • MonwynMonwyn Apathy's a tragedy, and boredom is a crime. A little bit of everything, all of the time.Registered User regular
    The later books feature two extremely drawn-out plotlines that can be cut entirely while losing nothing, and one that could have been massively cut down.

    uH3IcEi.png
    CptHamiltonTofystedethFencingsaxStarZapperBlackDragon480
  • MancingtomMancingtom Registered User regular
    Some plotlines in the second act of the series (the infamous “Slog”) suffered from pacing issues, notably:
    Faile’s kidnapping and the Andoran Succession Crisis, both of which could’ve been handled in one or two books instead of four.

    There were also some issues caused by Jordan not knowing exactly how long the series would be:
    This is really clear with Rand’s madness.

    In Book 3, when Jordan thought the series would be 6 books long, Rand’s doing serial killer shit like posing dead bodies so they bow to him.

    Then he’s basically fine for the next 2.5 books, the only signs of mental illness being rage issues—but no more severe than what a healthy person in similar circumstances might feel.

    That said, I strongly believe the series works best when you can run through them all. The Slog only feels as such if you have to wait two years or more between each installment.

    SleepSnicketysnick38thDoeReynoldsHappylilElfElvenshaeBlackDragon480
  • XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    They've said they're not doing the opening? Bad sign!

    "For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men. Not women. Not beasts...this you can trust."
    Reynolds
  • SnicketysnickSnicketysnick The Greatest Hype Man in WesterosRegistered User regular
    Yeah I am back up to #7 now and just about to hit the lull point I think (from what i remember) that bowl is a harbinger of meandering coming over the horizon heh. That said last time through a few years ago I dont think it was anything like as bad as i remembered, mainly because as you say I was just pounding through books, which covers up a lot of pacing problems.

    7qmGNt5.png
    D3 Steam #TeamTangent STO
  • TofystedethTofystedeth Registered User regular
    Story time!
    When I was high school I managed to turn several of my friends on to this series. Like...4-6 people. Pretty much simultaneously. At one point we were all reading some book in the series. We also happened to, most of us, be in the same physics class sitting in the same group of tables. Our physics teacher, who was a dang ol' nerd, would often rib us for reading "Robert Jordan bricks".

    One day, one of my friends came to school, with an actual brick that he'd found, on which he'd written with a Sharpie "Robert Jordan."

    Physics comes around, our last class of the day, and he just, sets the brick on the corner of his table.

    End of the period when everyone is just working on homework, asking questions etc., and as we are wont to do we're just talking with each other and being louder than we should be.
    Teacher comes around doing his "You all need to focus" thing, while waving his hands beside his head in a focusing gesture.
    "You're being disruptive. You gotta focus. You gotta fo- is that a Robert Jordan brick?"
    "Yep"
    "Can I have it?"
    "Yep"
    "Thanks! Anyway you gotta focus. Finish up the assignment."
    walks away and turns around "You really mean it? I can keep it?"

    I visited his room a couple years later, cause that was back when you could still just wander into your old high school to visit the teachers, and he still had it in the chalk tray on his chalkboard at the front of class.

    steam_sig.png
    IlpalaMancingtomSnicketysnickCarpyFencingsaxCptHamiltonReynolds38thDoeHappylilElfEtiowsaRhesus PositiveJragghenSleepSmrtnikElvenshaeGnome-InterruptusAntinumericKetarMorganVboogedyboochrono_travellerTheBlackWindNitsuaArdolKristmas Kthulhu
  • ReynoldsReynolds Gone Fishin'Registered User regular
    Hydropolo wrote: »
    One of the trailers indicated that Moiraine thought ANY of the 5 kids could be the dragon, implication being that Egwene and Nyneave are both Ta'vereen (as well that the dragon could be female).

    I would absolutely 100% laugh myself silly at the aneurysms that a lot of sexist folks would have if they made Egwene or Nyneave the dragon instead in this series.

    If they try to Dark Tower movie/FF7R this, I'd be pretty upset. But I wouldn't have much to say, I'd just...not watch it, and warn people before they do if they make it clear they want to be given that information.

    The trailer seemed like a bad sign, but could be written off as pure marketing. I guess we'll really know as soon as we actually hear the prophecy.

    uyvfOQy.png
    Gnome-InterruptusCptHamilton
  • MancingtomMancingtom Registered User regular
    They’re…not going to change who the Dragon is. They’re just playing up the mystery of which one of the Superyouths it is, because that’s good TV.

    Most of the people watching this will not have read the books. The show is coming out weekly. Theorizing as to who the Dragon is makes for good marketing.

    Spoilers for Book 1:
    While Eye of the World’s format makes it painfully obvious who it is, Jordan meant it to be a plot twist.

    TofystedethHappylilElfIlpalaSleepApogeeKanaMoridin889
  • TofystedethTofystedeth Registered User regular
    Mancingtom wrote: »
    They’re…not going to change who the Dragon is. They’re just playing up the mystery of which one of the Superyouths it is, because that’s good TV.

    Most of the people watching this will not have read the books. The show is coming out weekly. Theorizing as to who the Dragon is makes for good marketing.

    Spoilers for Book 1:
    While Eye of the World’s format makes it painfully obvious who it is, Jordan meant it to be a plot twist.

    Yeah
    If nothing else I can't see them spending the money for the massive effort involved in rewriting so much of the story so that it makes sense if anyone else is the Dragon. And frankly Nynaeve and Egwene are important enough they're probably at least a little ta'veren.

    I'm chalking it up to some mix of Moraine being her usually cagey self and Amazon marketing.

    steam_sig.png
    MancingtomIlpalaSleepApogeeGnome-Interruptus
  • MancingtomMancingtom Registered User regular
    I’m betting:

    Speculation for Season 1:
    They move the flashback to the Blood Snow/reveal that Rand was born on Dragonmount to the last episode, playing concurrently with the first time Rand openly channels.

    The shock moment writes itself.

  • ShadowhopeShadowhope Baa. Registered User regular

    I meant to just reread a few scenes, but I basically ended up reading all of A Memory of Light on a plane today.

    Two thoughts:
    Lan’s battle with Barid Bel Medar and everything around it is basically the best part of the entire series.

    Pevara and Androl are the best couple in the series.

    Remember, safety is everyone's concern. We have gone five days without a workplace death.
    MancingtomElvenshaeGnome-InterruptusBlackDragon480
  • MancingtomMancingtom Registered User regular
    Shadowhope wrote: »
    I meant to just reread a few scenes, but I basically ended up reading all of A Memory of Light on a plane today.

    Two thoughts:
    Lan’s battle with Barid Bel Medar and everything around it is basically the best part of the entire series.

    Pevara and Androl are the best couple in the series.

    One of my biggest hopes for the series
    is that they bring Androl and Pevara in as early as possible.

  • LorekLorek Registered User regular
    38thDoe wrote: »
    I mean if the Dark One really wanted to win maybe poison both pools? And that one other pool?

    So there is a reason for this but after thinking about it, yeah it doesn't really pass the smell test.

    Wheel of Time history spoilers
    So at the end of the prior Age, the Dragon comes up with a plan to seal away the Dark One and end the war. The Women think this is a bad idea so not a single female magic user goes along with it. This is the part that is.. yeah sure, monolithic gender group think.

    This results in only male magic users going forward with the plan, which results in the Dark One being sealed (for now) and the male side of magic being corrupted and every male magic user going insane.

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited October 28
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Wow, I do not remember basically any of this.

    My only hope is that the gender politics weirdness is toned down

    Yeah he was definitely trying to do a sexism is bad thing, but the execution was... lacking.

    I'm not sure lacking is the right word. The books are filled with female characters with power, personal goals, agency and concerns that have nothing to do with men. It's just that everything is filtered through a very gender essentialist view that really predates modern ideas of gender identity. It doesn't even have the slightest clue our modern ideas of gender identity exist. I think within that context it's about as anti-sexism as one can get. The series very much presents that idea that women and men aren't equal as complete and utter bullshit and ties that whole idea into the metaphysics of the story itself.

    shryke on
    MancingtomFencingsaxReynoldsElvenshaeShadowhopeGnome-InterruptusCidTheSquidMoridin889AridholBlackDragon480Ardoltinwhiskers
  • 38thDoe38thDoe lets never be stupid again wait lets always be stupid foreverRegistered User regular
    38thDoe wrote: »
    I sunk a ton of time into reading these and then rereading them when the new ones finally came out but I dropped off somewhere in college. This guy really needed an editor. There was a lot of reused material in the books, like starting every book with a long section about the wind and the wheel. From reading interviews with other authors I guess they are pressured to make every book approachable to people who haven't read any of the series but that seems insane to me. Who would think to start reading in book 6 skipping the first 6,000 pages or so. Ultimately the best thing that came out of the Wheel of Time is this person's summaries.

    https://three-degrees-below-social.tumblr.com/post/107520367078/isams-wheel-of-time-summary-the-eye-of-the
    Lanfear: I’m just your average flawlessly beautiful woman trapped in an alternate world. This is my disquise, which is not quite as flawlessly beautiful as I actually am.

    Rand: Sounds good to me. Join us.

    Lanfear: I like powerful men. My favorite is the Great Lord of the Dark.

    Rand: Did you say something?

    Lanfear: No. Go Light.

    ————
    Moiraine: My brilliant theory about The Prophecy of the Dragon is that you need to wage war against Illian, because ‘The People of the Dragon’ obviously are the people of Tear. Also, you need to wear a yellow pointed party hat, because that is my understanding of the line “He will bring war.”

    Rand: I have a different interpretation of The Prophecy of the Dragon.

    Moiraine: What would you know about The Prophecy of the Dragon? You’re merely the Dragon Reborn, while I am a busybody.

    Rand: You haven’t been helping me out a lot lately. You didn’t give me any advice in Fal Dara – instead, you ignored me, and after Falme, you said I should simply “wait for the Pattern.”

    Moiraine: That’s what good advisors do. Give advice once a year. And the advice that we do give is poorly thought-out and incorrect.

    Rand: My instinct tells me I should go my own way again.

    Moiriane: That will lead to disaster.

    Rand: It was a disaster when I went to Tear, and took Callandor?

    Moiraine: Yes. That was a disaster because it made me look like an idiot for not advising you to do anything, then being angry when you did something.

    Rand: Well, these are disastrous times.

    ————-
    Rand: Too bad no one killed Couladin when we had the chance.

    Rhuarc: That would violate ji’e’toh.

    Rand: ji’e’toh restricts you from stopping madmen warlords?

    Rhuarc: Yes. The rule is madmen warlords can try to kill you, and everyone near you, and everyone else who isn’t near you, and everyone they know, and everyone they thought was looking at them funny.

    Rand: What does ji’e’toh let me do?

    Rhuarc: You can mutter under your breath.

    Rand: Shaido dogs.

    Rhuarc: Now you’re getting it.

    I started reading the Harry Potter books on the 4th one. They were getting wildly popular around the 3rd one and I was curious what this thick-ass book my little sister was reading was about, so I read it after she finished it. I enjoyed it enough to keep reading the ones after but not enough to go back and read the first 3.

    I forget what one but I started some other series on like book 2 or 3 because I thought I'd bought the first one and, in fact, had accidentally bought a later one. I believe in that case I did go back and read the earlier one(s) afterward.

    Having an editor is how authors end up re-explaining things and recapping previous books in series, because the editor says, "You need to explain what the fuck you're talking about here for people who either haven't read the previous books or read them over the span of the last decade and don't remember."

    I don't think WoT was especially egregious about it. I've read some fantasy series where there's seriously dozens of pages of just straight-up, "Previously on..." recap exposition at the head of each book. The whole wind and the wheel thing at the start of each book was like a page or two, and differed between books.

    Thanks, that is interesting to me and makes a lot of sense. The wind thing was just the easiest thing to remember. I probably haven't read through for at least ten years.

  • HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    Hydropolo wrote: »
    One of the trailers indicated that Moiraine thought ANY of the 5 kids could be the dragon, implication being that Egwene and Nyneave are both Ta'vereen (as well that the dragon could be female).

    I would absolutely 100% laugh myself silly at the aneurysms that a lot of sexist folks would have if they made Egwene or Nyneave the dragon instead in this series.

    That would require rewriting literally every part of the series and worldbuilding so...

    I can't think of a good reason for Moraine to think that.

    While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
    shrykeGnome-InterruptusCptHamiltonAridhol
  • HydropoloHydropolo Registered User regular
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    Hydropolo wrote: »
    One of the trailers indicated that Moiraine thought ANY of the 5 kids could be the dragon, implication being that Egwene and Nyneave are both Ta'vereen (as well that the dragon could be female).

    I would absolutely 100% laugh myself silly at the aneurysms that a lot of sexist folks would have if they made Egwene or Nyneave the dragon instead in this series.

    That would require rewriting literally every part of the series and worldbuilding so...

    I can't think of a good reason for Moraine to think that.

    Which part? The Ta'Vereen parts? That wouldn't require much worldbuilding. In fact it would explain a LOT that happens with those two over the series a lot better than just "two prodigies from small town". If the latter part, yeah, I mean, I think you could still do it fairly easy, but... I am doubtful, it was just an amusing though. The "If you guys choked on Captain Marvel, wait till you see this" kind of thought.

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Hydropolo wrote: »
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    Hydropolo wrote: »
    One of the trailers indicated that Moiraine thought ANY of the 5 kids could be the dragon, implication being that Egwene and Nyneave are both Ta'vereen (as well that the dragon could be female).

    I would absolutely 100% laugh myself silly at the aneurysms that a lot of sexist folks would have if they made Egwene or Nyneave the dragon instead in this series.

    That would require rewriting literally every part of the series and worldbuilding so...

    I can't think of a good reason for Moraine to think that.

    Which part? The Ta'Vereen parts? That wouldn't require much worldbuilding. In fact it would explain a LOT that happens with those two over the series a lot better than just "two prodigies from small town". If the latter part, yeah, I mean, I think you could still do it fairly easy, but... I am doubtful, it was just an amusing though. The "If you guys choked on Captain Marvel, wait till you see this" kind of thought.

    The fact that:
    the Dragon is a male channeler seems the most obvious one.

    The entire social perception of both who the Dragon was and what that kind of thing means within their society is fundamental to the story and also the metaphysics of the world.

    ReynoldsGnome-InterruptusCptHamilton
  • MancingtomMancingtom Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Hydropolo wrote: »
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    Hydropolo wrote: »
    One of the trailers indicated that Moiraine thought ANY of the 5 kids could be the dragon, implication being that Egwene and Nyneave are both Ta'vereen (as well that the dragon could be female).

    I would absolutely 100% laugh myself silly at the aneurysms that a lot of sexist folks would have if they made Egwene or Nyneave the dragon instead in this series.

    That would require rewriting literally every part of the series and worldbuilding so...

    I can't think of a good reason for Moraine to think that.

    Which part? The Ta'Vereen parts? That wouldn't require much worldbuilding. In fact it would explain a LOT that happens with those two over the series a lot better than just "two prodigies from small town". If the latter part, yeah, I mean, I think you could still do it fairly easy, but... I am doubtful, it was just an amusing though. The "If you guys choked on Captain Marvel, wait till you see this" kind of thought.

    The fact that:
    the Dragon is a male channeler seems the most obvious one.

    The entire social perception of both who the Dragon was and what that kind of thing means within their society is fundamental to the story and also the metaphysics of the world.
    You still get there by focusing on the reincarnation of the Dragon.

    In the books, most people have no real knowledge of the prophecies—in fact, they're banned in several nations—and assume that the Dragon is on the Dark One's side. In Eye of the World, Mat recalls a merchant's guard who got fired because he had the fringe belief that the Dragon would return to save the world.

    Note this quote from the beginning of Eye of the World: “All was shattered, and all but memory lost, and one memory above all others, of him who brought the Shadow and the Breaking of the World. And him they named Dragon.” Only the White Tower and other educated people are aware that the Dragon fights for the Light—and even then, it's with the assumption that it still means a second Breaking.



    Most regular people also distrust Aes Sedai at best and hate them at best. To them, the Dragon would be bad news regardless of gender.

    But, again, this is just puffing up the mystery to draw in people who haven't read the book. We know Rand is the Dragon. That doesn't mean the show has to tip its hand early.

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited October 29
    Mancingtom wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Hydropolo wrote: »
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    Hydropolo wrote: »
    One of the trailers indicated that Moiraine thought ANY of the 5 kids could be the dragon, implication being that Egwene and Nyneave are both Ta'vereen (as well that the dragon could be female).

    I would absolutely 100% laugh myself silly at the aneurysms that a lot of sexist folks would have if they made Egwene or Nyneave the dragon instead in this series.

    That would require rewriting literally every part of the series and worldbuilding so...

    I can't think of a good reason for Moraine to think that.

    Which part? The Ta'Vereen parts? That wouldn't require much worldbuilding. In fact it would explain a LOT that happens with those two over the series a lot better than just "two prodigies from small town". If the latter part, yeah, I mean, I think you could still do it fairly easy, but... I am doubtful, it was just an amusing though. The "If you guys choked on Captain Marvel, wait till you see this" kind of thought.

    The fact that:
    the Dragon is a male channeler seems the most obvious one.

    The entire social perception of both who the Dragon was and what that kind of thing means within their society is fundamental to the story and also the metaphysics of the world.
    You still get there by focusing on the reincarnation of the Dragon.

    In the books, most people have no real knowledge of the prophecies—in fact, they're banned in several nations—and assume that the Dragon is on the Dark One's side. In Eye of the World, Mat recalls a merchant's guard who got fired because he had the fringe belief that the Dragon would return to save the world.

    Note this quote from the beginning of Eye of the World: “All was shattered, and all but memory lost, and one memory above all others, of him who brought the Shadow and the Breaking of the World. And him they named Dragon.” Only the White Tower and other educated people are aware that the Dragon fights for the Light—and even then, it's with the assumption that it still means a second Breaking.



    Most regular people also distrust Aes Sedai at best and hate them at best. To them, the Dragon would be bad news regardless of gender.

    But, again, this is just puffing up the mystery to draw in people who haven't read the book. We know Rand is the Dragon. That doesn't mean the show has to tip its hand early.

    This isn't really true though.
    In the books people have little knowledge of the specifics of the prophecies of the Dragon, but who the Dragon was and the fact that he's bad and that he will be reborn are common knowledge everywhere we see. Same with the fact that male channelers are scary and bad news. Men who channel are even going around calling themselves the Dragon. And all these things are vital parts of the story and what it means to the characters.

    And of course Moraine of all people should know this shit.

    shryke on
    ReynoldsSmrtnikGnome-InterruptusMoridin889Aridhol
  • DocDoc Registered User, ClubPA regular
    Is this any more problematic than (Dune spoilers):
    the Kwisatz Haderach being the lone male capable of wielding massive prescience that Reverend Mothers of the Bene Gesserit only have a glimpse of? From how the recent Dune movie went, it seems like they're pretty explicitly staying on that path.

  • MancingtomMancingtom Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Mancingtom wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Hydropolo wrote: »
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    Hydropolo wrote: »
    One of the trailers indicated that Moiraine thought ANY of the 5 kids could be the dragon, implication being that Egwene and Nyneave are both Ta'vereen (as well that the dragon could be female).

    I would absolutely 100% laugh myself silly at the aneurysms that a lot of sexist folks would have if they made Egwene or Nyneave the dragon instead in this series.

    That would require rewriting literally every part of the series and worldbuilding so...

    I can't think of a good reason for Moraine to think that.

    Which part? The Ta'Vereen parts? That wouldn't require much worldbuilding. In fact it would explain a LOT that happens with those two over the series a lot better than just "two prodigies from small town". If the latter part, yeah, I mean, I think you could still do it fairly easy, but... I am doubtful, it was just an amusing though. The "If you guys choked on Captain Marvel, wait till you see this" kind of thought.

    The fact that:
    the Dragon is a male channeler seems the most obvious one.

    The entire social perception of both who the Dragon was and what that kind of thing means within their society is fundamental to the story and also the metaphysics of the world.
    You still get there by focusing on the reincarnation of the Dragon.

    In the books, most people have no real knowledge of the prophecies—in fact, they're banned in several nations—and assume that the Dragon is on the Dark One's side. In Eye of the World, Mat recalls a merchant's guard who got fired because he had the fringe belief that the Dragon would return to save the world.

    Note this quote from the beginning of Eye of the World: “All was shattered, and all but memory lost, and one memory above all others, of him who brought the Shadow and the Breaking of the World. And him they named Dragon.” Only the White Tower and other educated people are aware that the Dragon fights for the Light—and even then, it's with the assumption that it still means a second Breaking.



    Most regular people also distrust Aes Sedai at best and hate them at best. To them, the Dragon would be bad news regardless of gender.

    But, again, this is just puffing up the mystery to draw in people who haven't read the book. We know Rand is the Dragon. That doesn't mean the show has to tip its hand early.

    This isn't really true though.
    In the books people have little knowledge of the specifics of the prophecies of the Dragon, but who the Dragon was and the fact that he's bad and that he will be reborn are common knowledge everywhere we see. Same with the fact that male channelers are scary and bad news. Men who channel are even going around calling themselves the Dragon. And all these things are vital parts of the story and what it means to the characters.

    And of course Moraine of all people should know this shit.
    All of that can still be true even if they present the potential of a female Dragon.

    Like, men who can channel aren't feared because they could be Dragon, they're feared because they go insane.

    Of note, while Jordan stated that the Dragon is always male, there is a female counterpart who presumably appears in other Ages.

  • JragghenJragghen Registered User regular
    You guys are focusing on the wrong thing.
    of course she doesn't think egwene is the dragon. But she does want her to come, and she's an Aes sedai. It's absolutely a "technically the truth."

    SleepHappylilElfTofystedethSmrtnikElvenshaeMoridin889Aridholstopgap
  • MancingtomMancingtom Registered User regular
    Jragghen wrote: »
    You guys are focusing on the wrong thing.
    of course she doesn't think egwene is the dragon. But she does want her to come, and she's an Aes sedai. It's absolutely a "technically the truth."
    This is what I ultimately expect to be the case.

    I just want to point out that the potential of a female Dragon doesn't break the lore any more than aging Egwene up to 20 or having Moiraine played by a tall actress. Everything that makes the Dragon Reborn scary is still in place, everything that makes a man who can channel bad news is still in place.

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Mancingtom wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Mancingtom wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Hydropolo wrote: »
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    Hydropolo wrote: »
    One of the trailers indicated that Moiraine thought ANY of the 5 kids could be the dragon, implication being that Egwene and Nyneave are both Ta'vereen (as well that the dragon could be female).

    I would absolutely 100% laugh myself silly at the aneurysms that a lot of sexist folks would have if they made Egwene or Nyneave the dragon instead in this series.

    That would require rewriting literally every part of the series and worldbuilding so...

    I can't think of a good reason for Moraine to think that.

    Which part? The Ta'Vereen parts? That wouldn't require much worldbuilding. In fact it would explain a LOT that happens with those two over the series a lot better than just "two prodigies from small town". If the latter part, yeah, I mean, I think you could still do it fairly easy, but... I am doubtful, it was just an amusing though. The "If you guys choked on Captain Marvel, wait till you see this" kind of thought.

    The fact that:
    the Dragon is a male channeler seems the most obvious one.

    The entire social perception of both who the Dragon was and what that kind of thing means within their society is fundamental to the story and also the metaphysics of the world.
    You still get there by focusing on the reincarnation of the Dragon.

    In the books, most people have no real knowledge of the prophecies—in fact, they're banned in several nations—and assume that the Dragon is on the Dark One's side. In Eye of the World, Mat recalls a merchant's guard who got fired because he had the fringe belief that the Dragon would return to save the world.

    Note this quote from the beginning of Eye of the World: “All was shattered, and all but memory lost, and one memory above all others, of him who brought the Shadow and the Breaking of the World. And him they named Dragon.” Only the White Tower and other educated people are aware that the Dragon fights for the Light—and even then, it's with the assumption that it still means a second Breaking.



    Most regular people also distrust Aes Sedai at best and hate them at best. To them, the Dragon would be bad news regardless of gender.

    But, again, this is just puffing up the mystery to draw in people who haven't read the book. We know Rand is the Dragon. That doesn't mean the show has to tip its hand early.

    This isn't really true though.
    In the books people have little knowledge of the specifics of the prophecies of the Dragon, but who the Dragon was and the fact that he's bad and that he will be reborn are common knowledge everywhere we see. Same with the fact that male channelers are scary and bad news. Men who channel are even going around calling themselves the Dragon. And all these things are vital parts of the story and what it means to the characters.

    And of course Moraine of all people should know this shit.
    All of that can still be true even if they present the potential of a female Dragon.

    Like, men who can channel aren't feared because they could be Dragon, they're feared because they go insane.

    Of note, while Jordan stated that the Dragon is always male, there is a female counterpart who presumably appears in other Ages.
    Women don't go insane when they channel though and this is also pretty common knowledge. Like all the associations with the Dragon that everyone knows are: guy, channels, bad person who killed his whole family and a ton of other people because male channelers go crazy, will come back and holy shit that's bad. The Dragon is not just "some person" to people, there's specific things associated with the idea of The Dragon that are integral to how they are viewed by people, including the characters themselves.

    The idea of a female Dragon does not make any sense within the world of WOT or the metaphysics. And especially not for someone like Moraine who 100% knows this shit down pact.

    ReynoldsElvenshaeGnome-InterruptustinwhiskersAridholNitsua
  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Mancingtom wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Mancingtom wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Hydropolo wrote: »
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    Hydropolo wrote: »
    One of the trailers indicated that Moiraine thought ANY of the 5 kids could be the dragon, implication being that Egwene and Nyneave are both Ta'vereen (as well that the dragon could be female).

    I would absolutely 100% laugh myself silly at the aneurysms that a lot of sexist folks would have if they made Egwene or Nyneave the dragon instead in this series.

    That would require rewriting literally every part of the series and worldbuilding so...

    I can't think of a good reason for Moraine to think that.

    Which part? The Ta'Vereen parts? That wouldn't require much worldbuilding. In fact it would explain a LOT that happens with those two over the series a lot better than just "two prodigies from small town". If the latter part, yeah, I mean, I think you could still do it fairly easy, but... I am doubtful, it was just an amusing though. The "If you guys choked on Captain Marvel, wait till you see this" kind of thought.

    The fact that:
    the Dragon is a male channeler seems the most obvious one.

    The entire social perception of both who the Dragon was and what that kind of thing means within their society is fundamental to the story and also the metaphysics of the world.
    You still get there by focusing on the reincarnation of the Dragon.

    In the books, most people have no real knowledge of the prophecies—in fact, they're banned in several nations—and assume that the Dragon is on the Dark One's side. In Eye of the World, Mat recalls a merchant's guard who got fired because he had the fringe belief that the Dragon would return to save the world.

    Note this quote from the beginning of Eye of the World: “All was shattered, and all but memory lost, and one memory above all others, of him who brought the Shadow and the Breaking of the World. And him they named Dragon.” Only the White Tower and other educated people are aware that the Dragon fights for the Light—and even then, it's with the assumption that it still means a second Breaking.



    Most regular people also distrust Aes Sedai at best and hate them at best. To them, the Dragon would be bad news regardless of gender.

    But, again, this is just puffing up the mystery to draw in people who haven't read the book. We know Rand is the Dragon. That doesn't mean the show has to tip its hand early.

    This isn't really true though.
    In the books people have little knowledge of the specifics of the prophecies of the Dragon, but who the Dragon was and the fact that he's bad and that he will be reborn are common knowledge everywhere we see. Same with the fact that male channelers are scary and bad news. Men who channel are even going around calling themselves the Dragon. And all these things are vital parts of the story and what it means to the characters.

    And of course Moraine of all people should know this shit.
    All of that can still be true even if they present the potential of a female Dragon.

    Like, men who can channel aren't feared because they could be Dragon, they're feared because they go insane.

    Of note, while Jordan stated that the Dragon is always male, there is a female counterpart who presumably appears in other Ages.
    Women don't go insane when they channel though and this is also pretty common knowledge. Like all the associations with the Dragon that everyone knows are: guy, channels, bad person who killed his whole family and a ton of other people because male channelers go crazy, will come back and holy shit that's bad. The Dragon is not just "some person" to people, there's specific things associated with the idea of The Dragon that are integral to how they are viewed by people, including the characters themselves.

    The idea of a female Dragon does not make any sense within the world of WOT or the metaphysics. And especially not for someone like Moraine who 100% knows this shit down pact.
    As I recall, Wilders absolutely do go nuts, it's just the Aes Sedai hush it up. The books make it pretty clear that the whole "male channelers can't be trusted" is a Dark One ploy more than a specific thing.

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Mancingtom wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Mancingtom wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Hydropolo wrote: »
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    Hydropolo wrote: »
    One of the trailers indicated that Moiraine thought ANY of the 5 kids could be the dragon, implication being that Egwene and Nyneave are both Ta'vereen (as well that the dragon could be female).

    I would absolutely 100% laugh myself silly at the aneurysms that a lot of sexist folks would have if they made Egwene or Nyneave the dragon instead in this series.

    That would require rewriting literally every part of the series and worldbuilding so...

    I can't think of a good reason for Moraine to think that.

    Which part? The Ta'Vereen parts? That wouldn't require much worldbuilding. In fact it would explain a LOT that happens with those two over the series a lot better than just "two prodigies from small town". If the latter part, yeah, I mean, I think you could still do it fairly easy, but... I am doubtful, it was just an amusing though. The "If you guys choked on Captain Marvel, wait till you see this" kind of thought.

    The fact that:
    the Dragon is a male channeler seems the most obvious one.

    The entire social perception of both who the Dragon was and what that kind of thing means within their society is fundamental to the story and also the metaphysics of the world.
    You still get there by focusing on the reincarnation of the Dragon.

    In the books, most people have no real knowledge of the prophecies—in fact, they're banned in several nations—and assume that the Dragon is on the Dark One's side. In Eye of the World, Mat recalls a merchant's guard who got fired because he had the fringe belief that the Dragon would return to save the world.

    Note this quote from the beginning of Eye of the World: “All was shattered, and all but memory lost, and one memory above all others, of him who brought the Shadow and the Breaking of the World. And him they named Dragon.” Only the White Tower and other educated people are aware that the Dragon fights for the Light—and even then, it's with the assumption that it still means a second Breaking.



    Most regular people also distrust Aes Sedai at best and hate them at best. To them, the Dragon would be bad news regardless of gender.

    But, again, this is just puffing up the mystery to draw in people who haven't read the book. We know Rand is the Dragon. That doesn't mean the show has to tip its hand early.

    This isn't really true though.
    In the books people have little knowledge of the specifics of the prophecies of the Dragon, but who the Dragon was and the fact that he's bad and that he will be reborn are common knowledge everywhere we see. Same with the fact that male channelers are scary and bad news. Men who channel are even going around calling themselves the Dragon. And all these things are vital parts of the story and what it means to the characters.

    And of course Moraine of all people should know this shit.
    All of that can still be true even if they present the potential of a female Dragon.

    Like, men who can channel aren't feared because they could be Dragon, they're feared because they go insane.

    Of note, while Jordan stated that the Dragon is always male, there is a female counterpart who presumably appears in other Ages.
    Women don't go insane when they channel though and this is also pretty common knowledge. Like all the associations with the Dragon that everyone knows are: guy, channels, bad person who killed his whole family and a ton of other people because male channelers go crazy, will come back and holy shit that's bad. The Dragon is not just "some person" to people, there's specific things associated with the idea of The Dragon that are integral to how they are viewed by people, including the characters themselves.

    The idea of a female Dragon does not make any sense within the world of WOT or the metaphysics. And especially not for someone like Moraine who 100% knows this shit down pact.
    As I recall, Wilders absolutely do go nuts, it's just the Aes Sedai hush it up. The books make it pretty clear that the whole "male channelers can't be trusted" is a Dark One ploy more than a specific thing.
    Male channelers go nuts eventually cause of the taint. The distrust of them is not some sort of ploy, it's just a kind of common knowledge based on what happens.

    Wilders don't go nuts like men do, they just die horribly. I believe it's described as days of horrible suffering and they don't know any way to stop it once it begins.

    SmrtnikElvenshaeApogeeGnome-InterruptusCptHamiltonKanastopgapNitsua
  • HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    Mancingtom wrote: »
    Jragghen wrote: »
    You guys are focusing on the wrong thing.
    of course she doesn't think egwene is the dragon. But she does want her to come, and she's an Aes sedai. It's absolutely a "technically the truth."
    This is what I ultimately expect to be the case.

    I just want to point out that the potential of a female Dragon doesn't break the lore any more than aging Egwene up to 20 or having Moiraine played by a tall actress. Everything that makes the Dragon Reborn scary is still in place, everything that makes a man who can channel bad news is still in place.

    It does. Serious ending spoilers:
    The Dragon has to be using the tainted half of the source. They have to be the one to have tried to seal the Bore in the previous age, getting their half tainted in the process. The insanity produced by the taint is what allows Lewis Therin's memories to bleed through, and those memories are necessary to know how to seal the Bore correctly the second time. All of it was a necessary part of the Pattern.

    While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
    shrykeGnome-Interruptus
  • iguanacusiguanacus Desert PlanetRegistered User regular
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Mancingtom wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Mancingtom wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Hydropolo wrote: »
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    Hydropolo wrote: »
    One of the trailers indicated that Moiraine thought ANY of the 5 kids could be the dragon, implication being that Egwene and Nyneave are both Ta'vereen (as well that the dragon could be female).

    I would absolutely 100% laugh myself silly at the aneurysms that a lot of sexist folks would have if they made Egwene or Nyneave the dragon instead in this series.

    That would require rewriting literally every part of the series and worldbuilding so...

    I can't think of a good reason for Moraine to think that.

    Which part? The Ta'Vereen parts? That wouldn't require much worldbuilding. In fact it would explain a LOT that happens with those two over the series a lot better than just "two prodigies from small town". If the latter part, yeah, I mean, I think you could still do it fairly easy, but... I am doubtful, it was just an amusing though. The "If you guys choked on Captain Marvel, wait till you see this" kind of thought.

    The fact that:
    the Dragon is a male channeler seems the most obvious one.

    The entire social perception of both who the Dragon was and what that kind of thing means within their society is fundamental to the story and also the metaphysics of the world.
    You still get there by focusing on the reincarnation of the Dragon.

    In the books, most people have no real knowledge of the prophecies—in fact, they're banned in several nations—and assume that the Dragon is on the Dark One's side. In Eye of the World, Mat recalls a merchant's guard who got fired because he had the fringe belief that the Dragon would return to save the world.

    Note this quote from the beginning of Eye of the World: “All was shattered, and all but memory lost, and one memory above all others, of him who brought the Shadow and the Breaking of the World. And him they named Dragon.” Only the White Tower and other educated people are aware that the Dragon fights for the Light—and even then, it's with the assumption that it still means a second Breaking.



    Most regular people also distrust Aes Sedai at best and hate them at best. To them, the Dragon would be bad news regardless of gender.

    But, again, this is just puffing up the mystery to draw in people who haven't read the book. We know Rand is the Dragon. That doesn't mean the show has to tip its hand early.

    This isn't really true though.
    In the books people have little knowledge of the specifics of the prophecies of the Dragon, but who the Dragon was and the fact that he's bad and that he will be reborn are common knowledge everywhere we see. Same with the fact that male channelers are scary and bad news. Men who channel are even going around calling themselves the Dragon. And all these things are vital parts of the story and what it means to the characters.

    And of course Moraine of all people should know this shit.
    All of that can still be true even if they present the potential of a female Dragon.

    Like, men who can channel aren't feared because they could be Dragon, they're feared because they go insane.

    Of note, while Jordan stated that the Dragon is always male, there is a female counterpart who presumably appears in other Ages.
    Women don't go insane when they channel though and this is also pretty common knowledge. Like all the associations with the Dragon that everyone knows are: guy, channels, bad person who killed his whole family and a ton of other people because male channelers go crazy, will come back and holy shit that's bad. The Dragon is not just "some person" to people, there's specific things associated with the idea of The Dragon that are integral to how they are viewed by people, including the characters themselves.

    The idea of a female Dragon does not make any sense within the world of WOT or the metaphysics. And especially not for someone like Moraine who 100% knows this shit down pact.
    As I recall, Wilders absolutely do go nuts, it's just the Aes Sedai hush it up. The books make it pretty clear that the whole "male channelers can't be trusted" is a Dark One ploy more than a specific thing.
    It's less that Wilders go nuts as it is they tend to do shit with the power without realizing it, up to and including drawing/using too much as to burn themselves out. This means they can in the heat of the moment do some colossal fucked up shit. And the distrust of male channelers might be stoked a bit by the Dark one over the years, but it's absolutely rooted in fact. If you are a male, and a channeler you will eventually go mad. And when you break bad it's bad news bears for everyone around you. To touch on what shryke was talking about earlier one of the more common ways to refer to The Dragon is as Kinslayer, cause even if everybody doesn't know the specifics of how he died everybody ABSOLUTELY knows that he went insane, killed his whole family and then turned a normal house into a fucking huge volcano that still smokes to this day thousands of years later.

    shrykeJragghenTofystedethReynoldsSmrtnikElvenshaeGnome-Interruptus
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited October 29
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    Mancingtom wrote: »
    Jragghen wrote: »
    You guys are focusing on the wrong thing.
    of course she doesn't think egwene is the dragon. But she does want her to come, and she's an Aes sedai. It's absolutely a "technically the truth."
    This is what I ultimately expect to be the case.

    I just want to point out that the potential of a female Dragon doesn't break the lore any more than aging Egwene up to 20 or having Moiraine played by a tall actress. Everything that makes the Dragon Reborn scary is still in place, everything that makes a man who can channel bad news is still in place.

    It does. Serious ending spoilers:
    The Dragon has to be using the tainted half of the source. They have to be the one to have tried to seal the Bore in the previous age, getting their half tainted in the process. The insanity produced by the taint is what allows Lewis Therin's memories to bleed through, and those memories are necessary to know how to seal the Bore correctly the second time. All of it was a necessary part of the Pattern.

    My only quibble is:
    I'm not sure if the Taint was actually necessary. I got the impression from the ending of TGS where he's on Dragonmount that the voice in his head is ultimately unconnected to the Taint and it's just a function of the weird fact that he's a specific person being reborn and once he fully accepts what he is, it vanishes since he stops trying to fight it.

    shryke on
  • MancingtomMancingtom Registered User regular
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    Mancingtom wrote: »
    Jragghen wrote: »
    You guys are focusing on the wrong thing.
    of course she doesn't think egwene is the dragon. But she does want her to come, and she's an Aes sedai. It's absolutely a "technically the truth."
    This is what I ultimately expect to be the case.

    I just want to point out that the potential of a female Dragon doesn't break the lore any more than aging Egwene up to 20 or having Moiraine played by a tall actress. Everything that makes the Dragon Reborn scary is still in place, everything that makes a man who can channel bad news is still in place.

    It does. Serious ending spoilers:
    The Dragon has to be using the tainted half of the source. They have to be the one to have tried to seal the Bore in the previous age, getting their half tainted in the process. The insanity produced by the taint is what allows Lewis Therin's memories to bleed through, and those memories are necessary to know how to seal the Bore correctly the second time. All of it was a necessary part of the Pattern.

    Ah, I think I see some confusion about my point:
    I'm not arguing that changing things so the Dragon is always a woman doesn't break lore. I'm arguing that if Lews Therin were reincarnated as Egwene al'Vere, she would still have access to his memories and could use saidin through a circle the same way Rand accesses saidar during the Cleansing and Sealing.

    That said, your idea is not quite how things happened:
    The key to safely sealing the Bore was the True Power, which Lews Therin did not know existed. Rand got access to it through his soullink with Moridin, something that wasn't in play during the Age of Legends.

    The taint is also not the reason Rand has Lews Therin's memories; that's an effect of him...being the Dragon. It happened naturally, well before Rand started showing signs of madness—note the times he unconsciously refers to things only Lews Therin could know in The Shadow Rising and The Fires of Heaven. After the early installment weirdness of The Dragon Reborn, the taint doesn't really start to impact Rand until Lord of Chaos.

    That saidin was corrupted because the Dark One was able to touch it during the Sealing was already common knowledge among channelers before the story begins. What Rand figured out was a) how to blend all three Powers to forge a perfect Seal and b) how to do it without tainting saidin or saidar.

    The importance of gaining Lews Therin's memories is that Rand's inability to integrate his past and present lives was what drove him insane. It was the final refusal of his destiny as the Dragon. Finally doing so is what allowed him to win the right way. Had Darth Rand gone to the Last Battle, he 100% would've killed the Dark One, and we saw what kind of world that would make.

  • iguanacusiguanacus Desert PlanetRegistered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    Mancingtom wrote: »
    Jragghen wrote: »
    You guys are focusing on the wrong thing.
    of course she doesn't think egwene is the dragon. But she does want her to come, and she's an Aes sedai. It's absolutely a "technically the truth."
    This is what I ultimately expect to be the case.

    I just want to point out that the potential of a female Dragon doesn't break the lore any more than aging Egwene up to 20 or having Moiraine played by a tall actress. Everything that makes the Dragon Reborn scary is still in place, everything that makes a man who can channel bad news is still in place.

    It does. Serious ending spoilers:
    The Dragon has to be using the tainted half of the source. They have to be the one to have tried to seal the Bore in the previous age, getting their half tainted in the process. The insanity produced by the taint is what allows Lewis Therin's memories to bleed through, and those memories are necessary to know how to seal the Bore correctly the second time. All of it was a necessary part of the Pattern.

    My only quibble is:
    I'm not sure if the Taint was actually necessary. I got the impression from the ending of TGS where he's on Dragonmount that the voice in his head is ultimately unconnected to the Taint and it's just a function of the weird fact that he's a specific person being reborn and once he fully accepts what he is, it vanishes since he stops trying to fight it.
    Him being able to access those memories is part of his particular brand of madness. The fact that he hears Lews voice in his head as an actual person is also part of his madness. When he learns to really accept this whole Dragon Reborn thing, after his Come to Jesus moment, he understands that the voice isn't actually real, just a manifestation of his own fractured psyche.

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    iguanacus wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    Mancingtom wrote: »
    Jragghen wrote: »
    You guys are focusing on the wrong thing.
    of course she doesn't think egwene is the dragon. But she does want her to come, and she's an Aes sedai. It's absolutely a "technically the truth."
    This is what I ultimately expect to be the case.

    I just want to point out that the potential of a female Dragon doesn't break the lore any more than aging Egwene up to 20 or having Moiraine played by a tall actress. Everything that makes the Dragon Reborn scary is still in place, everything that makes a man who can channel bad news is still in place.

    It does. Serious ending spoilers:
    The Dragon has to be using the tainted half of the source. They have to be the one to have tried to seal the Bore in the previous age, getting their half tainted in the process. The insanity produced by the taint is what allows Lewis Therin's memories to bleed through, and those memories are necessary to know how to seal the Bore correctly the second time. All of it was a necessary part of the Pattern.

    My only quibble is:
    I'm not sure if the Taint was actually necessary. I got the impression from the ending of TGS where he's on Dragonmount that the voice in his head is ultimately unconnected to the Taint and it's just a function of the weird fact that he's a specific person being reborn and once he fully accepts what he is, it vanishes since he stops trying to fight it.
    Him being able to access those memories is part of his particular brand of madness. The fact that he hears Lews voice in his head as an actual person is also part of his madness. When he learns to really accept this whole Dragon Reborn thing, after his Come to Jesus moment, he understands that the voice isn't actually real, just a manifestation of his own fractured psyche.
    I don't think it's part of the madness from the Taint at all. It's just his old memories from his last life imposing themselves on him. The fact that it stops after he fully accepts his role indicates otherwise. Cause he isn't cleansed of the Taint at that point.

    MancingtomMoridin889
  • iguanacusiguanacus Desert PlanetRegistered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    iguanacus wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    Mancingtom wrote: »
    Jragghen wrote: »
    You guys are focusing on the wrong thing.
    of course she doesn't think egwene is the dragon. But she does want her to come, and she's an Aes sedai. It's absolutely a "technically the truth."
    This is what I ultimately expect to be the case.

    I just want to point out that the potential of a female Dragon doesn't break the lore any more than aging Egwene up to 20 or having Moiraine played by a tall actress. Everything that makes the Dragon Reborn scary is still in place, everything that makes a man who can channel bad news is still in place.

    It does. Serious ending spoilers:
    The Dragon has to be using the tainted half of the source. They have to be the one to have tried to seal the Bore in the previous age, getting their half tainted in the process. The insanity produced by the taint is what allows Lewis Therin's memories to bleed through, and those memories are necessary to know how to seal the Bore correctly the second time. All of it was a necessary part of the Pattern.

    My only quibble is:
    I'm not sure if the Taint was actually necessary. I got the impression from the ending of TGS where he's on Dragonmount that the voice in his head is ultimately unconnected to the Taint and it's just a function of the weird fact that he's a specific person being reborn and once he fully accepts what he is, it vanishes since he stops trying to fight it.
    Him being able to access those memories is part of his particular brand of madness. The fact that he hears Lews voice in his head as an actual person is also part of his madness. When he learns to really accept this whole Dragon Reborn thing, after his Come to Jesus moment, he understands that the voice isn't actually real, just a manifestation of his own fractured psyche.
    I don't think it's part of the madness from the Taint at all. It's just his old memories from his last life imposing themselves on him. The fact that it stops after he fully accepts his role indicates otherwise. Cause he isn't cleansed of the Taint at that point.
    I distinctly remember Graendal or maybe Semirhage talking about the hearing of previous lives is a form madness even known during the Age of Legends.

    SleepElvenshaephysi_marcKana
  • MancingtomMancingtom Registered User regular
    edited October 29
    Theory about the Dragon Reborn, spoilers for whole series:
    I think the abilities Zen Rand displays, the protection from the taint and sensing Darkfriends, were always present to lesser degrees.


    Sensing Darkfriends:

    -When Rand fights Forsaken in the early part of the series, he sees a "black tendril" that connects them to the Dark One. This is plot important in The Shadow Rising, as cutting this connection is part of how he forces Asmodean to train him.

    -We see other channelers fight Forsaken, notably Nynaeve and Egwene, who never see any such black tendril.

    -Then, people Rand instinctively distrusts—Kadere, Isendre, and Weiramon come to mind—turn out to be Darkfriends.

    -As he slides into despair, getting further and further away from what he's supposed to be, this ability fades. After the epiphany on Dragonmount, it returns strong enough for him to use it consciously and unconsciously drive Darkfriends insane when going all out.



    Protection from the Taint:

    -We see male channelers go mad during the series, usually presented as a complete shattering of the mind (Fedwin Morr) or persistent hallucinations (Androl Genhald). However, Rand displays neither of these traits.

    -Things that are initially presented as Rand's taint madness—his rages, hearing Lews Therin, the instinctive desire to break the Seals, and his later nausea upon seizing saidin—are later revealed to come from other sources. His rage comes from the immense pressure he's under, memories of his Lews Therin are simply part of being the Dragon, which in turn leads to an instinctive understanding that the old Seals must be destroyed in order to properly heal the Bore. His nausea is a consequence of his soullink with Moridin, not the taint.

    -As for where this protection came from—I think that was the ultimate purpose of the Eye of the World. We never get a definitive answer on why 100 Aes Sedai sacrificed their lives to make it. While Moiraine theorizes it was meant to be used to win the Last Battle, that doesn't really make sense. The Horn of Valere and a Seal were inaccessible until the Eye was used. There's no winning the Last Battle without blowing the Horn and breaking that Seal. Instead, it's purpose was to keep the Dragon from losing his mind before he fulfilled his destiny.
    iguanacus wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    iguanacus wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    Mancingtom wrote: »
    Jragghen wrote: »
    You guys are focusing on the wrong thing.
    of course she doesn't think egwene is the dragon. But she does want her to come, and she's an Aes sedai. It's absolutely a "technically the truth."
    This is what I ultimately expect to be the case.

    I just want to point out that the potential of a female Dragon doesn't break the lore any more than aging Egwene up to 20 or having Moiraine played by a tall actress. Everything that makes the Dragon Reborn scary is still in place, everything that makes a man who can channel bad news is still in place.

    It does. Serious ending spoilers:
    The Dragon has to be using the tainted half of the source. They have to be the one to have tried to seal the Bore in the previous age, getting their half tainted in the process. The insanity produced by the taint is what allows Lewis Therin's memories to bleed through, and those memories are necessary to know how to seal the Bore correctly the second time. All of it was a necessary part of the Pattern.

    My only quibble is:
    I'm not sure if the Taint was actually necessary. I got the impression from the ending of TGS where he's on Dragonmount that the voice in his head is ultimately unconnected to the Taint and it's just a function of the weird fact that he's a specific person being reborn and once he fully accepts what he is, it vanishes since he stops trying to fight it.
    Him being able to access those memories is part of his particular brand of madness. The fact that he hears Lews voice in his head as an actual person is also part of his madness. When he learns to really accept this whole Dragon Reborn thing, after his Come to Jesus moment, he understands that the voice isn't actually real, just a manifestation of his own fractured psyche.
    I don't think it's part of the madness from the Taint at all. It's just his old memories from his last life imposing themselves on him. The fact that it stops after he fully accepts his role indicates otherwise. Cause he isn't cleansed of the Taint at that point.
    I distinctly remember Graendal or maybe Semirhage talking about the hearing of previous lives is a form madness even known during the Age of Legends.
    It was Semirhage, and I think she was lying. Her whole job at that point was to break Rand (so that he'd tap into the True Power and join the Shadow, but she didn't know about that part) and her fondest pleasure was torturing people. Rand's fear of madness is an obvious pressure point, so she pressed it.

    Mancingtom on
    shrykeMoridin889
  • IlpalaIlpala Just this guy, y'know TexasRegistered User regular
    edited October 29
    Mancingtom wrote: »
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    Mancingtom wrote: »
    Jragghen wrote: »
    You guys are focusing on the wrong thing.
    of course she doesn't think egwene is the dragon. But she does want her to come, and she's an Aes sedai. It's absolutely a "technically the truth."
    This is what I ultimately expect to be the case.

    I just want to point out that the potential of a female Dragon doesn't break the lore any more than aging Egwene up to 20 or having Moiraine played by a tall actress. Everything that makes the Dragon Reborn scary is still in place, everything that makes a man who can channel bad news is still in place.

    It does. Serious ending spoilers:
    The Dragon has to be using the tainted half of the source. They have to be the one to have tried to seal the Bore in the previous age, getting their half tainted in the process. The insanity produced by the taint is what allows Lewis Therin's memories to bleed through, and those memories are necessary to know how to seal the Bore correctly the second time. All of it was a necessary part of the Pattern.

    Ah, I think I see some confusion about my point:
    I'm not arguing that changing things so the Dragon is always a woman doesn't break lore. I'm arguing that if Lews Therin were reincarnated as Egwene al'Vere, she would still have access to his memories and could use saidin through a circle the same way Rand accesses saidar during the Cleansing and Sealing.

    That said, your idea is not quite how things happened:
    The key to safely sealing the Bore was the True Power, which Lews Therin did not know existed. Rand got access to it through his soullink with Moridin, something that wasn't in play during the Age of Legends.

    The taint is also not the reason Rand has Lews Therin's memories; that's an effect of him...being the Dragon. It happened naturally, well before Rand started showing signs of madness—note the times he unconsciously refers to things only Lews Therin could know in The Shadow Rising and The Fires of Heaven. After the early installment weirdness of The Dragon Reborn, the taint doesn't really start to impact Rand until Lord of Chaos.

    That saidin was corrupted because the Dark One was able to touch it during the Sealing was already common knowledge among channelers before the story begins. What Rand figured out was a) how to blend all three Powers to forge a perfect Seal and b) how to do it without tainting saidin or saidar.

    The importance of gaining Lews Therin's memories is that Rand's inability to integrate his past and present lives was what drove him insane. It was the final refusal of his destiny as the Dragon. Finally doing so is what allowed him to win the right way. Had Darth Rand gone to the Last Battle, he 100% would've killed the Dark One, and we saw what kind of world that would make.

    Minorest of quibbles (late book spoilers):
    If Lews Therin is a distinct entity (up for debate but I lean toward him being so since otherwise Rand just intuits a bunch of random stuff about how things were done in the Age of Legends), I believe he is/was aware of the True Power.
    And Rand found himself filled with an alien power. Not saidin, not saidar, but something else. Something he’d never felt before.

    Oh, Light, Lews Therin suddenly screamed. That’s impossible! We can’t use it! Cast it away! That is death we hold, death and betrayal.

    It is HIM
    .

    Entirely possible this was a natural reaction, but to call it out immediately suggests otherwise.

    EDIT: Actually, I forgot something even more telling, remember Rand's walk through the ter'angreal in Rhuidean, the whole idea behind boring into the Dark One's prison back in the Age of Legends was the discovery of a new power source.

    Ilpala on
    FF XIV - Qih'to Furishu (on Siren), Battle.Net - Ilpala#1975
    Switch - SW-7373-3669-3011
    Fuck Joe Manchin
    ElvenshaeshrykeGnome-InterruptusMoridin889Cantide
Sign In or Register to comment.