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Turning Out a New Third Age [WoT TV show]

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  • TofystedethTofystedeth Registered User regular
    Sleep wrote: »
    Wait am I the only one here that realized that’s what tower channeling looked like all this time? Like Jordan did a terrible job conveying it, but
    they mention it a few times throughout the series that tower channeling looks fuckin dumb. Like all other channeling disciplines look at the aes sedi and say, “uh you know you don’t necessarily have to do all the hand motions and shit right? You can just do the weave in your head while standing still.” The big dumb movements in fact make them worse channelers, and are a series long indictment of the aes sedi. They admonish not using the dumb hand movements in their training because the movements are a tradition they hold to kind of blindly even when it leads to bad outcomes.
    He describes them as having unnecessary movements as aids to focus that then lock them into that style. He doesn't describe them as big, dumb, slow movements al a Shyamalan earthbending.
    I thought the lightning and the flicking the axe towards the trolloc were basically perfect. The fireball throwing motions a bit much, and the long drawn out dragging of the stones way too much.
    Especially since in the cold open we see a worse Aes Sedai do more with less.

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  • Gnome-InterruptusGnome-Interruptus Registered User regular
    Different Aes Sendai channel use different movements for the same weaves/spells.
    They make a point in the book that you can tell who trained who by which movements they use.

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  • tinwhiskerstinwhiskers Registered User regular
    Hellbore wrote: »
    Nitsua wrote: »
    Hellbore wrote: »
    For book readers wondering about certain changes, Judkins gave this answer
    ...I am sure you have seen a lot of fans of the books have had concerns about some changes, as I am sure you would have expected. However, a main one seems to be that a woman can be the dragon. Why was this change made if the Dragon is going to be the same anyway as it changes a lot in the world Jordan created e.g. the dragon if a woman can be trained by other woman in the tower etc, or touch Callandor.
    The change we made was not just with the fact that a woman could be the Dragon, the core change we made was that people are NOT 100% convinced that these 3000 year old prophecies are 100% accurate. I think it feels a little bit more true to the world, and you see the characters questioning the prophecies of the Dragon and the details of it much more in the show than in the books (although there are some scenes in the books that show this as well, we've just expanded on that). It seems quite trusting for the Aes Sedai, who trust no one, and especially Moiraine, who trusts less than no one, to believe with 100% certainty ANYTHING that was written thousands of years ago
    I’m going to hard disagree here, this proves that they aren’t as Up on the books and a Lore as they claim to be. Moraine is NOT only going on thousands of years old prophecies, she’s literally going off the words of a foretelling given at the moment of the Dragon’s birth by Gitara Moroso: “ He is born again! I feel him! The Dragon takes his first breath on the slopes of Dragonmount! He is coming! He is coming! Light help us! Light help the world! He lies in the snow and cries like the thunder! He burns like the sun!”

    This is what set her foot to the path of seeking out the Dragon Reborn and searching through the Prophecies for more information on the Dragon. And she KNEW he would be male because foretelling is a Talent and Gitara the strongest at foretelling that any Aes Sedai Alive was aware of at the time and foretellings are 100% Fact, same as the prophecies since that is where those came from too - they weren’t just accepted at face value, they saw their validity over time Time and time again.

    And things like this are Why a number of us are having a hard time believing the show runners have thought this through nor the ramifications of it. Yes, Aes Sedai don’t trust every bit of gossip that comes their way, but they do believe in facts and they know, scientifically (or by the power if you will) that foretellings are fact and that one was as it was happening fact.

    So, again, hard disagree, and they only really needed to do a very small amount of research to learn this, let alone be hardcore into the books as they claim they are.

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    Book stuff
    Gitara's foretelling is;

    "He is born again! I feel him! The Dragon takes his first breath on the slopes of Dragonmount! He is coming! He is coming! Light help us! Light help the world! He lies in the snow and cries like the thunder! He burns like the sun!"

    The "He" there could easily be referring to Lews Therin, regardless of the reincarnation's gender. I still think changing only Moraine to not take Foretellings and prophecies literally changes almost nothing important.

    Mother milk in a cup! Nothing Important, um what?!?
    Book stuff.
    that foretelling literally sets the entire course of Moraine's and Siuan's lives.

    After the other sisters who heard it are killed by the Black ajah, they (as accepted)are the only 2 non dark friends in the world that know the Dragon is reborn. I believe book 2, is pretty explicit they've both been doing their part to prepare for him the whole time since.

    And just on basic characterization and themes(The whole Blues=causes thing)

    That finding and protecting the Dragon is/has been her entire life's work, is THE defining trait of Moraine. Her quest to find him, her entering the stone to kill Be'lal, her oath to obay him, her sacrifice, her return to help Rand at the end. Etc.

    If anything she is kinda a tropey 'too focused on her career to the exclusion of everything else' character, it defines her that much.

    30 for 30 WoT: Her Every Waking Moment "How Moraine is actually the one who saved creation"

    More generally her not believing the prophecies/foretellings while also ridding all over everywhere hunting for the Dragon seems to have a bit of an internal logic gap.

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  • TofystedethTofystedeth Registered User regular
    edited November 25
    I honestly think it's a case of them having vagueify it to appease Amazon's marketing and not being allowed give that as the reason. A person in the TV industry in SE++ pointed out that fantasy TV audiences are something like 60% women. There has been a lot of executive meddling in the season. Judkins originally wanted 10 episodes and a 2 hours pilot. He got something like 11,000 notes from suits in the first season. From what I've seen of him in interviews and his AMA, as well as much of the the cast and crew (again, at least one his production assistants, Sarah Nakamura who is the show loremaster, has read the series 30+ times) are very familiar with the books and the content and themes and stuff. We have every indication that nothing has changed about who is who in the story. If we have to suffer a few clumsy lines that broaden the initial scope of the mystery and conflict a bit with lore, while the final outcome remains the same, I'm willing to accept that if it means the show actually gets made.

    So far, Amazon's meddling appears to working, as the show has some of their highest watch numbers and completion rates of any of their show premieres. And regular (i.e. non film/TV critics) viewers who aren't book readers seem to not have any issues with pacing or information absorption, at least beyond the standard level where there's always going to be some people who miss some things.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    I honestly think it's a case of them having vagueify it to appease Amazon's marketing and not being allowed give that as the reason. A person in the TV industry in SE++ pointed out that fantasy TV audiences are something like 60% women. There has been a lot of executive meddling in the season. Judkins originally wanted 10 episodes and a 2 hours pilot. He got something like 11,000 notes from suits in the first season. From what I've seen of him in interviews and his AMA, as well as much of the the cast and crew (again, at least one his production assistants, Sarah Nakamura who is the show loremaster, has read the series 30+ times) are very familiar with the books and the content and themes and stuff. We have every indication that nothing has changed about who is who in the story. If we have to suffer a few clumsy lines that broaden the initial scope of the mystery and conflict a bit with lore, while the final outcome remains the same, I'm willing to accept that if it means the show actually gets made.

    So far, Amazon's meddling appears to working, as the show has some of their highest watch numbers and completion rates of any of their show premieres. And regular (i.e. non film/TV critics) viewers who aren't book readers seem to not have any issues with pacing or information absorption, at least beyond the standard level where there's always going to be some people who miss some things.

    Executive meddling and lowering the episode count would explain quite a few things. Both the rushed pace, especially at the start, and the very "More drama! Dumb it down!" approach to many things.

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  • SleepSleep Registered User regular
    edited November 25
    Moraine Book stuff
    Pretty sure she’s the one to point out that some of the prophecies are incomprehensible, and a ton of it coming to pass and what they actually mean are often surprise to her. Yes she has the one fortelling that’s like, “yo this is fuckin happening, it’s go time for the apocalypse”, but after taking up the life cause she reads every prophecy she can find. Even the ones that disagree with each other. She absolutely didn’t take anything in prophecies at face value, except for the one she was in the room for, and a very few that were identifiable and verifiable fence posts like the stone the herons and the dragons

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  • IncindiumIncindium Registered User regular
    After the first three eps I think I'm going to give this one more episode to win me over. There are hints at some interesting stuff in here but the series feels like it's unsuccessfully trying to punch above its weight class. That said, the acting has by and large been quite good.

    I don't really like the settings and everything just feels way too clean for a fantasy romp. The effects in general are also, like, really bad. I very nearly turned it off in the first episode when wizard-lady was doing that air-bending silliness. That looked like something out of early aughts Buffy the Vampire Slayer - not a huge budget Amazon production.

    But, again, the acting is solid and that's really the most important part.

    The effects aren't actually bad though (if they were I'd have noticed watching in 4k on a 75" TV). You just don't like the stylistic choice they made.

    And as others have pointed out the hand motion thing is actually staying true to the books.

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  • TofystedethTofystedeth Registered User regular
    edited November 25
    Sleep wrote: »
    Moraine Book stuff
    Pretty sure she’s the one to point out that some of the prophecies are incomprehensible, and a ton of it coming to pass and what they actually mean are often surprise to her. Yes she has the one fortelling that’s like, “yo this is fuckin happening, it’s go time for the apocalypse”, but after taking up the life cause she reads every prophecy she can find. Even the ones that disagree with each other. She absolutely didn’t take anything in prophecies at face value, except for the one she was in the room for, and a very few that were identifiable and verifiable fence posts like the stone the herons and the dragons

    Yep, definitely in book 3
    Since I just read that chapter last night. When Rand scarpers off and they find out everybody has been dreaming of Callandor and the Stone, Perrin's like, "That's it then? That's the last prophecy he needs to fulfill?" and she goes "Hell no, we don't know what half of it means. It's poetry and allusions and translations. Some of it's pretty obvious but a lot of it isn't."
    That scene also contains a line of prophecy that is one of the first glimpses of my favorite running plot line throughout the series
    Book 4 onward
    "He shall slay his people with the sword of peace, and destroy them with the leaf."

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  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    The magic/CGI doesn’t bother me much at all

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  • SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Fuck Warren Ellis Registered User regular
    Incindium wrote: »
    After the first three eps I think I'm going to give this one more episode to win me over. There are hints at some interesting stuff in here but the series feels like it's unsuccessfully trying to punch above its weight class. That said, the acting has by and large been quite good.

    I don't really like the settings and everything just feels way too clean for a fantasy romp. The effects in general are also, like, really bad. I very nearly turned it off in the first episode when wizard-lady was doing that air-bending silliness. That looked like something out of early aughts Buffy the Vampire Slayer - not a huge budget Amazon production.

    But, again, the acting is solid and that's really the most important part.

    The effects aren't actually bad though (if they were I'd have noticed watching in 4k on a 75" TV). You just don't like the stylistic choice they made.

    And as others have pointed out the hand motion thing is actually staying true to the books.

    Nah, it was rough in a few places. The scene I mentioned but also the scene with the trolls following them across a stream. The first one that comes on screen and then leaps into the water looked really off.
    To be slightly more kind, it seemed a bit like the effects in some of the CW arrowverse shows. It's passable for sure, but in a way that I don't think would be in a film or some HBO productions.

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  • SnicketysnickSnicketysnick The Greatest Hype Man in WesterosRegistered User regular
    Yeah there's definitely some more "tracking hound" type trollocs that look pretty shonky compared to the rest. That's an outlier for me though

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    I've actually liked the Trolloc effects. Probably the best of any of the effects stuff in the show so far.

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  • SnicketysnickSnicketysnick The Greatest Hype Man in WesterosRegistered User regular
    The main stand up trollocs are excellent I think, up there with the lotr orcs as a testament to spending time on a good makeup job, which is probably why the smaller running on all fours ones are so noticeable to me

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  • SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Fuck Warren Ellis Registered User regular
    To be clear though, it's not something that bothers me. I was just expecting a bit more - probably unfairly. Now that my expectations are properly calibrated I think it's totally fine.

  • SmrtnikSmrtnik job boli zub Registered User regular
    The main stand up trollocs are excellent I think, up there with the lotr orcs as a testament to spending time on a good makeup job, which is probably why the smaller running on all fours ones are so noticeable to me

    Probably can go a long way with prosthetics for the stand up ones, but for the dog running ones you can't get a real person to move that way so they have to be full CGI

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  • SnicketysnickSnicketysnick The Greatest Hype Man in WesterosRegistered User regular
    Smrtnik wrote: »
    The main stand up trollocs are excellent I think, up there with the lotr orcs as a testament to spending time on a good makeup job, which is probably why the smaller running on all fours ones are so noticeable to me

    Probably can go a long way with prosthetics for the stand up ones, but for the dog running ones you can't get a real person to move that way so they have to be full CGI

    Should've got Horse Girl in, smh

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  • TofystedethTofystedeth Registered User regular
    edited November 25
    Smrtnik wrote: »
    The main stand up trollocs are excellent I think, up there with the lotr orcs as a testament to spending time on a good makeup job, which is probably why the smaller running on all fours ones are so noticeable to me

    Probably can go a long way with prosthetics for the stand up ones, but for the dog running ones you can't get a real person to move that way so they have to be full CGI

    Yeah, most of the trollocs, especially when we see them close up are practical effects with a little bit of CG, especially on the faces to fill in the gaps. They're stuntmen (about 25 of them) wearing costumes with stilt prosthetics for the extra height and hoof things. Apparently the masks are fairly modular where the horns and other bits are attached with magnets so they can get more variety of head profiles easily.
    It's the CG heavy trolloc moments that are the ones that tend to suffer.

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  • AegeriAegeri Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    I'm going to be curious to see how the criticism from some of the people who have read the books develops once all the episodes have come out.

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  • TaramoorTaramoor Storyteller Registered User regular
    Aegeri wrote: »
    I'm going to be curious to see how the criticism from some of the people who have read the books develops once all the episodes have come out.

    I think the ones who are already opposed will remain so. For the rest, as long as they nail the big moments they should be okay.

    I know several Ice and Fire readers who were incredibly forgiving as long as the show nailed episode 9 every year. A ton of heavy lifting was done by singular events like the Red Wedding, Ned’s death, The Battle of King’s Landing, The Battle at the Wall, etc.

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  • Jubal77Jubal77 Registered User regular
    For me the early books are so far away from what develops later on adding more to the kids early on is very reasonable to me.

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  • XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    edited November 27
    I just hope we get to the end. Seems unlikely. At least with it bearing any resemblance to how it should be.

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  • TaramoorTaramoor Storyteller Registered User regular
    edited November 26
    Shit happens in WoT that still haunts me to this day. It's not as pervasive throughout the series, but it's there and it's rough at times.

    It’s a weird contradiction in the series, in that seriously traumatic shit happens a LOT but they’re still fairly PG and glossy about everything. Like, this is a slight spoiler, but until Brandon Sanderson takes over in like book twelve, I don’t think a single character or line describes or implies characters ever having to go to the bathroom.

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  • KandenKanden Registered User regular
    I really liked episode 4, I'll admit it,
    the Mat fakeout got me for a second.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Taramoor wrote: »
    Shit happens in WoT that still haunts me to this day. It's not as pervasive throughout the series, but it's there and it's rough at times.

    It’s a weird contradiction in the series, in that seriously traumatic shit happens a LOT but they’re still fairly PG and glossy about everything. Like, this is a slight spoiler, but until Brandon Sanderson takes over in like book twelve, I don’t think a single character or line describes or implies characters ever having to go to the bathroom.

    I don't see how it's a contradiction. The series acknowledges how traumatic this shit is to the characters. It spends a ton of time on this in fact. It's just rarely gory, as a choice by the author.

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  • Raiden333Raiden333 Registered User regular
    Solid laugh out of early in the new episode
    "Is it Nee-nave? I'm sorry if I'm mispronouncing it"

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  • TofystedethTofystedeth Registered User regular
    Episode 4
    hahah that Nynaeve moment was fucking baller
    book stuff
    Even if it's just more misdirection as to who the Dragon really is. There's a reason she's the strongest female Channeler outside a couple of the Forsaken.

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  • TofystedethTofystedeth Registered User regular
    edited November 26
    Kanden wrote: »
    I really liked episode 4, I'll admit it,
    the Mat fakeout got me for a second.
    Yeah, that got me for a sec too, I thought they were going extra dark with some Mordeth possession, but it just being Shadar Logoth's normal hatred of the Shadow was good. I'm glad they're doing more with the effects of the dagger other that it just making him vaguely sick and kind of jerk for a couple books.

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  • MahnmutMahnmut Registered User regular
    Episode 4 re: episode 3
    Okay yeah I think Tinkers are totallly new to the kids, based mostly on Perrin’s phrasing

    I really liked this one, felt cohesive!

    Struck a really nice balance with
    The Aes Sedai— showing a plausible mix of infighting, professionalism, and cameraderie

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  • TaramoorTaramoor Storyteller Registered User regular
    edited November 26
    shryke wrote: »
    Taramoor wrote: »
    Shit happens in WoT that still haunts me to this day. It's not as pervasive throughout the series, but it's there and it's rough at times.

    It’s a weird contradiction in the series, in that seriously traumatic shit happens a LOT but they’re still fairly PG and glossy about everything. Like, this is a slight spoiler, but until Brandon Sanderson takes over in like book twelve, I don’t think a single character or line describes or implies characters ever having to go to the bathroom.

    I don't see how it's a contradiction. The series acknowledges how traumatic this shit is to the characters. It spends a ton of time on this in fact. It's just rarely gory, as a choice by the author.

    It’s dark, at times, but not grimdark, and overall optimistic and hopeful about people,

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  • TofystedethTofystedeth Registered User regular
    edited November 26
    shryke wrote: »
    Taramoor wrote: »
    Shit happens in WoT that still haunts me to this day. It's not as pervasive throughout the series, but it's there and it's rough at times.

    It’s a weird contradiction in the series, in that seriously traumatic shit happens a LOT but they’re still fairly PG and glossy about everything. Like, this is a slight spoiler, but until Brandon Sanderson takes over in like book twelve, I don’t think a single character or line describes or implies characters ever having to go to the bathroom.

    I don't see how it's a contradiction. The series acknowledges how traumatic this shit is to the characters. It spends a ton of time on this in fact. It's just rarely gory, as a choice by the author.

    Yeah, trauma and how you deal with it is actually a huge factor in the books, and
    book (uhhh, 7 through like 11 I think)
    One of the most important character arcs is Rand dealing with the trauma of all of the things that have happened, and keep happening, and the absolutely cosmic responsibility on his shoulders. He tries to go the whole "hard man making hard decisions" route for several books and it just makes things worse for himself and his loved ones and the world at large. To the point where it's clear that in the state he's in, him winning over The Dark One would be nearly as bad as TDO winning. The turning point is him allowing himself to be emotionally vulnerable, among other things.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited November 26
    shryke wrote: »
    Taramoor wrote: »
    Shit happens in WoT that still haunts me to this day. It's not as pervasive throughout the series, but it's there and it's rough at times.

    It’s a weird contradiction in the series, in that seriously traumatic shit happens a LOT but they’re still fairly PG and glossy about everything. Like, this is a slight spoiler, but until Brandon Sanderson takes over in like book twelve, I don’t think a single character or line describes or implies characters ever having to go to the bathroom.

    I don't see how it's a contradiction. The series acknowledges how traumatic this shit is to the characters. It spends a ton of time on this in fact. It's just rarely gory, as a choice by the author.

    Yeah, trauma and how you deal with it is actually a huge factor in the books, and
    book (uhhh, 7 through like 11 I think)
    One of the most important character arcs is Rand dealing with the trauma of all of the things that have happened, and keep happening, and the absolutely cosmic responsibility on his shoulders. He tries to go the whole "hard man making hard decisions" route for several books and it just makes things worse for himself and his loved ones and the world at large. To the point where it's clear that in the state he's in, him winning over The Dark One would be nearly as bad as TDO winning. The turning point is him allowing himself to be emotionally vulnerable, among other things.

    Spoilers for the whole book series:
    This is in fact explicitly the Dark Ones entire plan. That's how it wins. By traumatizing Rand to the point that he destroys the wheel. This is laid out in metaphor in I believe the prologue of Book 8. The big play for the DO is to turn the Dragon. Killing everyone by brute force is the distasteful and crass backup plan.

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  • SmrtnikSmrtnik job boli zub Registered User regular
    Episode 4
    hahah that Nynaeve moment was fucking baller
    book stuff
    Even if it's just more misdirection as to who the Dragon really is. There's a reason she's the strongest female Channeler outside a couple of the Forsaken.

    I don't remember any of this stuff from the book.

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  • JragghenJragghen Registered User regular
    I like how the beginning of the episode
    addressed the hand-waveyness by not having Logain do it.

    Looking like women get white threads and men get black and that'll be the level of colors we'll see.

    Really liking how they showed the madness, too.

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  • KandenKanden Registered User regular
    Ep 4 weaving aesthetics
    I really liked how Logain's weaves started white and we're chased by the black, like all of his stuff is constantly being corrupted by the taint on saidin.

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  • TofystedethTofystedeth Registered User regular
    Smrtnik wrote: »
    Episode 4
    hahah that Nynaeve moment was fucking baller
    book stuff
    Even if it's just more misdirection as to who the Dragon really is. There's a reason she's the strongest female Channeler outside a couple of the Forsaken.

    I don't remember any of this stuff from the book.

    No basically every scene is completely made up for show except the Egwene and Perrin stuff. Though they borrow elements and conversations from elsewhere. But imo all of it was really good. Captured the spirit of the books.
    Regarding specifically the stuff in the spoiler
    Yeah, wholly made up, but fairly in character that the first large scale channeling she'd do, that she'd be aware of as channeling, would be healing.

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  • JragghenJragghen Registered User regular
    Yeah, episode 4 was pretty easily the best so far. Lots of worldbuilding info dumps without being TOO monotonous, Logain was great, and even from a book differences perspective
    this was basically just condensing a few encounters together for Rand/Mat, and even the Lan/Moiraine/Nynaeve stuff was things that HAPPENED, just off-screen and they weren't there for it, but having them be there made a badass set piece and allowed for exposition

  • IncindiumIncindium Registered User regular
    edited November 26
    Jragghen wrote: »
    I like how the beginning of the episode
    addressed the hand-waveyness by not having Logain do it.

    Looking like women get white threads and men get black and that'll be the level of colors we'll see.

    Really liking how they showed the madness, too.

    Black threads are the taint I think.

    Late book spoiler
    Though given the Black Tower is a thing maybe not?

    Incindium on
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  • HydropoloHydropolo Registered User regular
    Episode 4
    hahah that Nynaeve moment was fucking baller
    book stuff
    Even if it's just more misdirection as to who the Dragon really is. There's a reason she's the strongest female Channeler outside a couple of the Forsaken.
    Nitpick, there are a couple I think on the side of the light who are stronger, mostly among Sewing Circle or Old Ones. Not many though. Nyneave is the strongest of the people that Rand trusts implicitly, which is why she's super important.
    .

    Shadowhope
  • TofystedethTofystedeth Registered User regular
    edited November 26
    Hydropolo wrote: »
    Episode 4
    hahah that Nynaeve moment was fucking baller
    book stuff
    Even if it's just more misdirection as to who the Dragon really is. There's a reason she's the strongest female Channeler outside a couple of the Forsaken.
    Nitpick, there are a couple I think on the side of the light who are stronger, mostly among Sewing Circle or Old Ones. Not many though. Nyneave is the strongest of the people that Rand trusts implicitly, which is why she's super important.
    .
    Bookses
    Nobody among the Sewing Circle as they were all too weak to remain at the Tower. They'd never have let someone with even a fraction of Nynaeve's strength leave. There was one (Sumeko? i think?) who was able to maintain a shield on her, but that was basically just a weird Talent she had. Outside of shielding She was otherwise barely strong enough to light a candle or heal bruises.

    There was Alivia who was stronger, but she showed up very late and was kind of poorly developed and did very little until the last book, so I don't really count her.

    Tofystedeth on
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  • HydropoloHydropolo Registered User regular
    Hydropolo wrote: »
    Episode 4
    hahah that Nynaeve moment was fucking baller
    book stuff
    Even if it's just more misdirection as to who the Dragon really is. There's a reason she's the strongest female Channeler outside a couple of the Forsaken.
    Nitpick, there are a couple I think on the side of the light who are stronger, mostly among Sewing Circle or Old Ones. Not many though. Nyneave is the strongest of the people that Rand trusts implicitly, which is why she's super important.
    .
    Bookses
    Nobody among the Sewing Circle as they were all too weak to remain at the Tower. They'd never have let someone with even a fraction of Nynaeve'd strength leave. There was one (Sumeko? i think?) who was able to maintain a shield on her, but that was basically just a weird Talent she had. Outside of shielding She was otherwise barely strong enough to light a candle or heal bruises.

    There was Alivia who was stronger, but she showed up very late and was kind of poorly developed and did very little until the last book, so I don't really count her.
    Sorry, my mistake, the Sewing Circle folks lived longer. Alivia was the former Damane from the Seanchan.

    Aridhol
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