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[Hiberno-Britannic Politics] - Tory Crime Week Begins With Tory MP Crime

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  • PowerpuppiesPowerpuppies Registered User regular
    2024 is a long way away and there are plenty of reprehensible reprobates ready to replace Johnson. Presumably someone like Raab or Hunt would be equally atrocious in terms of food banks, dead poor people etc. but look slightly less obviously corrupt and criminal and cause less international humiliation.

    It is good news to see them losing support, but I for one won't be happy until ( And I'm starting to think it will never happen) Starmer comes out and says, look at all these specific problems Brexit is causing, we are also the pro EU party and plan to fix them by applying to rejoin. Would that really be such a shot in the foot? Their support would surge at lower age and higher education demographics.

    Nothing really makes support surge at lower age demographics

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  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    I reckon a rejoin party would get spannered at the polls

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  • HerculePyroHerculePyro Banished to the land of wind and ghostsRegistered User regular
    Solar wrote: »
    I reckon a rejoin party would get spannered at the polls

    Much as it pains me to say, yes, they would. In a better world people would see that this is only the start of things, and it's already pretty shit for 99% of us, but in a better world we would never have done this blindingly stupid act of national self-harm in the first fucking place.

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  • klemmingklemming Registered User regular
    Even if there was a public and political will to rejoin, what realistic prospect of it would there be? I think some other countries would veto it with very valid reasons by now.
    At the very least we'd go back in as a less important member, and be expected to do without the exemptions or special treatment we had last time (goodbye Sterling, hello Euro).

    If it ever happens, it's going to be multiple decades away.

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  • CasualCasual Wiggle Wiggle Wiggle Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    It'd pretty much turn into a clusterfuck where even the people in favour of rejoining would want the sweetheart deal we had before and feel entitled to get it. The EU will almost certainly expect a commitment to the Euro and probably Schengen as a prerequisite for even considering it. Then they'd have to make a show of putting us at the back of the queue for membership. All of which is incredibly obvious and foreseeable (and was pointed out by many during the referendum) but will be treated as some kind of Machiavellian betrayal.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited November 2021
    Casual wrote: »
    It'd pretty much turn into a clusterfuck where even the people in favour of rejoining would want the sweetheart deal we had before and feel entitled to get it. The EU will almost certainly expect a commitment to the Euro and probably Schengen as a prerequisite for even considering it. Then they'd have to make a show of putting us at the back of the queue for membership. All of which is incredibly obvious and foreseeable (and was pointed out by many during the referendum) but will be treated as some kind of Machiavellian betrayal.

    Joining the eurozone is something the UK should reject frankly. But yes, Brexit has made that much more difficult in the future.

    shryke on
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  • tbloxhamtbloxham Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Casual wrote: »
    It'd pretty much turn into a clusterfuck where even the people in favour of rejoining would want the sweetheart deal we had before and feel entitled to get it. The EU will almost certainly expect a commitment to the Euro and probably Schengen as a prerequisite for even considering it. Then they'd have to make a show of putting us at the back of the queue for membership. All of which is incredibly obvious and foreseeable (and was pointed out by many during the referendum) but will be treated as some kind of Machiavellian betrayal.

    Joining the eurozone is something the UK should reject frankly. But yes, Brexit has made that much more difficult in the future.

    Indeed, highly skilled politicians had, over nearly 50 years, hammered out an ideal economic and political relationship between the UK and Europe, which was immensely beneficial for both sides but strictly optimal for the UK. The UK being in the eurozone is good for the eurozone, not so good for the UK, so there's no way we get in without the euro.

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  • BogartBogart Turn Around, Bright Eyes Registered User, Moderator mod
    I think re-joining the EU is a long way off. Re-joining the Single Market and the Customs Union is probably a better goal to aim for.

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  • [Expletive deleted][Expletive deleted] The mediocre doctor NorwayRegistered User regular
    Bogart wrote: »
    I think re-joining the EU is a long way off. Re-joining the Single Market and the Customs Union is probably a better goal to aim for.

    You can join Norway, Iceland and Lichtenstein in the EEA non-EU club.

    Sic transit gloria mundi.
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  • LucedesLucedes could happen to you, if you're not careful Registered User regular
    Jazz wrote: »
    The Queen having to miss Remembrance Day, of all things, is only reinforcing what I've been feeling for a while now - that she is (and has been) rather more unwell than the palace is letting on.

    Boris Johnson insisted two weeks ago that she was 'on very good form,' per an article in the Guardian.

    so she's like everything else he's vouched for the health of, we presume...

    autono-wally, erotibot300JazzRhesus PositiveKayne Red RobeRingoElldrenZilla360
  • TraceTrace GNU Terry Pratchett; GNU Gus; GNU Carrie Fisher; GNU Adam We Registered User regular
    edited November 2021
    Yeah she's 95 and just had her husband of however many years die. I'd be surprised if she makes it to her next birthday.

    Trace on
  • KarlKarl Registered User regular
    Solar wrote: »
    I reckon a rejoin party would get spannered at the polls

    And every general election for the next decade or two.

    And this is all based on the assumption that all members of the EU would even let us back in.

    Hint: France will gleefully use its veto for many years to come.

  • klemmingklemming Registered User regular
    We are going to be the international Fucked Around and Found Out country for decades.

    Nobody remembers the singer. The song remains.
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  • japanjapan Registered User regular
    Bogart wrote: »
    I think re-joining the EU is a long way off. Re-joining the Single Market and the Customs Union is probably a better goal to aim for.

    You can join Norway, Iceland and Lichtenstein in the EEA non-EU club.

    EFTA is on record that they would want specific assurances as well as governance controls before they would even consider admitting the UK, because the relative size of the UK's economy means that they risk it dominating the group, and also that it would suddenly make it a very different negotiating prospect from the EU perspective, risking their current agreements..

    Consider, if you will, how the UK has acted over fisheries, which is a much bigger deal for Norway and Iceland than it is for the UK.

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  • BogartBogart Turn Around, Bright Eyes Registered User, Moderator mod


    YouGov polling around sleaze isn't great reading for Johnson. Still, plenty of time before the next election, and it only matters if people decide it matters.

    I believe Labour are using an opposition day to hold a vote on banning MPs from consultancies and directorships. It's a reasonable move to keep pressure on and the topic in people's minds. Making it more limited than "no second jobs" makes it harder to defend a vote against it, though I'm sure that won't stop the Tories.

    Gnome-InterruptusElldren
  • [Expletive deleted][Expletive deleted] The mediocre doctor NorwayRegistered User regular
    japan wrote: »
    Bogart wrote: »
    I think re-joining the EU is a long way off. Re-joining the Single Market and the Customs Union is probably a better goal to aim for.

    You can join Norway, Iceland and Lichtenstein in the EEA non-EU club.

    EFTA is on record that they would want specific assurances as well as governance controls before they would even consider admitting the UK, because the relative size of the UK's economy means that they risk it dominating the group, and also that it would suddenly make it a very different negotiating prospect from the EU perspective, risking their current agreements..

    Consider, if you will, how the UK has acted over fisheries, which is a much bigger deal for Norway and Iceland than it is for the UK.

    There aren't plenty of fish in the sea, unfortunately.

    I guess we could fight another cod war. I recall the UK didn't exactly cover themselves in glory the last few times we had one.

    (My father's girlfriend's sister works in the EU beaurocracy on fishing stuff. Apparently it's a never-ending headache.)

    Sic transit gloria mundi.
  • CasualCasual Wiggle Wiggle Wiggle Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    The other issue with EEA is it's all of the taxation and none of the representation. You pay all the fees and have to obey all the laws but you have zero say in making any of them. I seriously doubt any in the UK will stand for that either. I don't think it's going to be a much easier sell than full membership because people arguing against it will have a very valid line of attack.

  • Mc zanyMc zany Registered User regular
    The idea behind the EEA is that you get most of the benefits of EU membership but are allowed to break away in certain areas (like fishing) and do their own thing. Naturally such flexibility comes with a price and as Casual says, EEA memebers get very little representation in the power structure.

    If you are wondering, Britain didn't join the EEA because the greater flexibility wasn't flexible enough.

  • evilthecatevilthecat Registered User regular
    Mc zany wrote: »
    The idea behind the EEA is that you get most of the benefits of EU membership but are allowed to break away in certain areas (like fishing) and do their own thing. Naturally such flexibility comes with a price and as Casual says, EEA memebers get very little representation in the power structure.

    If you are wondering, Britain didn't join the EEA because the greater flexibility wasn't flexible enough.

    I disagree.
    They didn't join because if you're screaming "SOVRINTEEEEH" at the top of your lungs and want all the foreign bureaucrats to die then, as the government, you can't join a group where you have to abide by 99% of the rules you are currently abiding by but have 0% say regarding their content.

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  • [Expletive deleted][Expletive deleted] The mediocre doctor NorwayRegistered User regular
    About half of the political parties here in Norway are for negotiating a "better agreement" that would give us all the benefits and none of the drawbacks by allowing us a la carte acceptence of individual EU laws and regulations, and then withdrawing from the EEA. (I'm sure if you asked any representatives of the EU about this they'd fall off their chair laughing.)

    A majority of the population is for remaining in the EEA, though. And the traditionally largest parties on each side are very much in favor of remaining.

    Sic transit gloria mundi.
  • SharpyVIISharpyVII Registered User regular
    A taxi exploded yesterday outside Liverpool women's hospital, it's been declared a terrorist incident:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/live/2021/nov/15/liverpool-womens-hospital-blast-police-hold-news-conference-live


    One dead (believed to be a suspect themselves) and four arrested.

    The taxi driver managed to escape and appears to have averted disaster by locking the suspects in his taxi.

  • CasualCasual Wiggle Wiggle Wiggle Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    SharpyVII wrote: »
    A taxi exploded yesterday outside Liverpool women's hospital, it's been declared a terrorist incident:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/live/2021/nov/15/liverpool-womens-hospital-blast-police-hold-news-conference-live


    One dead (believed to be a suspect themselves) and four arrested.

    The taxi driver managed to escape and appears to have averted disaster by locking the suspects in his taxi.

    Yeah if that rumor is true the taxi driver deserves a medal.

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  • evilthecatevilthecat Registered User regular
    Casual wrote: »
    SharpyVII wrote: »
    A taxi exploded yesterday outside Liverpool women's hospital, it's been declared a terrorist incident:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/live/2021/nov/15/liverpool-womens-hospital-blast-police-hold-news-conference-live


    One dead (believed to be a suspect themselves) and four arrested.

    The taxi driver managed to escape and appears to have averted disaster by locking the suspects in his taxi.

    Yeah if that rumor is true the taxi driver deserves a medal.

    Police spokesperson says that that is an unsubstantiated rumor atm.
    Also several fundraisers popping up over this, although the family is only aware of one official one soooo be careful whom you give your money.

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  • honoverehonovere Registered User regular
    Shell is moving its business from the Netherlands to the UK. Less taxes, easier buybacks, and I think recently they've been successfully sued by climate activists in the Netherlands, if I remember that correctly.

    Get ready for Brexit success parties.

  • MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    honovere wrote: »
    Shell is moving its business from the Netherlands to the UK. Less taxes, easier buybacks, and I think recently they've been successfully sued by climate activists in the Netherlands, if I remember that correctly.

    Get ready for Brexit success parties.

    Odds that this ends up a FoxConn situation?

    Corporation moves into the UK, gets all sorts of tax breaks, influences politicians, and does fuck all at best, drags down at worst, the local economy, and the Corporation pays fuck all in taxation?

    But as long as the politicians keep getting the cheddar, who cares about the other stuff, right?

  • LordSolarMachariusLordSolarMacharius Red wine with fish Registered User regular
    Casual wrote: »
    Yeah if that rumor is true the taxi driver deserves a medal.

    Parts of it are definitely not true. The explosive went off while the taxi was still moving; the driver was miraculously not killed, and managed to get out of the vehicle on his own before collapsing.

    (It's still possible that he sussed things out and helped save lives, but he didn't trap the suspect and run.)

  • Rhesus PositiveRhesus Positive GNU Terry Pratchett Registered User regular
    Casual wrote: »
    SharpyVII wrote: »
    A taxi exploded yesterday outside Liverpool women's hospital, it's been declared a terrorist incident:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/live/2021/nov/15/liverpool-womens-hospital-blast-police-hold-news-conference-live


    One dead (believed to be a suspect themselves) and four arrested.

    The taxi driver managed to escape and appears to have averted disaster by locking the suspects in his taxi.

    Yeah if that rumor is true the taxi driver deserves a medal.

    He will be treated like a hero*

    *Get a half-hearted round of applause one evening, then have his effective tax rate hiked up

    [Muffled sounds of gorilla violence]
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  • asurasur Registered User regular
    MorganV wrote: »
    honovere wrote: »
    Shell is moving its business from the Netherlands to the UK. Less taxes, easier buybacks, and I think recently they've been successfully sued by climate activists in the Netherlands, if I remember that correctly.

    Get ready for Brexit success parties.

    Odds that this ends up a FoxConn situation?

    Corporation moves into the UK, gets all sorts of tax breaks, influences politicians, and does fuck all at best, drags down at worst, the local economy, and the Corporation pays fuck all in taxation?

    But as long as the politicians keep getting the cheddar, who cares about the other stuff, right?

    I assume Shell already has tax breaks in the UK, but this doesn't appear to increase them. Shell has a dual UK and Netherland structure and this would be changing it to UK only. They state it's for easier valuation, but I would bet it's due to being held accountable for climate change in the Netherlands.

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  • TastyfishTastyfish Registered User regular
    I can see the UK eventually settling into something EEA like, but it's a big enough country that it'll need it's own bespoke rules and as people have said - the EEA nations don't really want to end up as the asterisk on UK/EU agreements. I think closer alignment with the EU is inevitable, especially if Scotland leaves and does join the EEA, but I don't think we will rejoin in my lifetime.

  • RingoRingo He/Him a distinct lack of substanceRegistered User regular
    Outside of generational values changing, the UK rejoining the EU would probably need to be precipitated by a catastrophic economic event that both convinced UK voters that survival outside the EU was impossible to bear and the EU member nations (France) that a broken UK on their borders was a greater threat than letting the UK in

    Certainly not an impossible situation to arise, but likely to be a dire one that everybody would rather avoid. Labour or the Lib Dems, or anyone really would be better served hitching their wagons to good governance as a platform rather than rejoining the EU. It's not like the Tories don't have a nigh unlimited number of disasters you can point to and shout "We can fo better!"

    Honestly from everything posted here it feels like not even Labour thinks they can do better...

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  • WotanAnubisWotanAnubis Registered User regular
    asur wrote: »
    MorganV wrote: »
    honovere wrote: »
    Shell is moving its business from the Netherlands to the UK. Less taxes, easier buybacks, and I think recently they've been successfully sued by climate activists in the Netherlands, if I remember that correctly.

    Get ready for Brexit success parties.

    Odds that this ends up a FoxConn situation?

    Corporation moves into the UK, gets all sorts of tax breaks, influences politicians, and does fuck all at best, drags down at worst, the local economy, and the Corporation pays fuck all in taxation?

    But as long as the politicians keep getting the cheddar, who cares about the other stuff, right?

    I assume Shell already has tax breaks in the UK, but this doesn't appear to increase them. Shell has a dual UK and Netherland structure and this would be changing it to UK only. They state it's for easier valuation, but I would bet it's due to being held accountable for climate change in the Netherlands.

    Well, the Dutch government suddenly wants to talk about repealing a certain kind of tax that the UK apparently doesn't have so that 'we' can hang on to Shell.

    It's all about the money either way.

  • Alistair HuttonAlistair Hutton Dr EdinburghRegistered User regular
  • TastyfishTastyfish Registered User regular
    He's not a Red Wall one either looking for his pound of flesh, he's the guy that just objects to stuff to stop things going through. The one who opposed upskirting.

    Jazz
  • CasualCasual Wiggle Wiggle Wiggle Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    Tastyfish wrote: »
    He's not a Red Wall one either looking for his pound of flesh, he's the guy that just objects to stuff to stop things going through. The one who opposed upskirting.

    I bet he's really fun at parties and has lots of friends.

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  • Alistair HuttonAlistair Hutton Dr EdinburghRegistered User regular
    Tastyfish wrote: »
    He's not a Red Wall one either looking for his pound of flesh, he's the guy that just objects to stuff to stop things going through. The one who opposed upskirting.

    He wrote am article 2 weeks ago on the Express about how beastly the standards commisioner was being to his friend Paterson.

    There is a broad spectrum of motivation here

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  • AldoAldo Hippo Hooray Registered User regular
    asur wrote: »
    MorganV wrote: »
    honovere wrote: »
    Shell is moving its business from the Netherlands to the UK. Less taxes, easier buybacks, and I think recently they've been successfully sued by climate activists in the Netherlands, if I remember that correctly.

    Get ready for Brexit success parties.

    Odds that this ends up a FoxConn situation?

    Corporation moves into the UK, gets all sorts of tax breaks, influences politicians, and does fuck all at best, drags down at worst, the local economy, and the Corporation pays fuck all in taxation?

    But as long as the politicians keep getting the cheddar, who cares about the other stuff, right?

    I assume Shell already has tax breaks in the UK, but this doesn't appear to increase them. Shell has a dual UK and Netherland structure and this would be changing it to UK only. They state it's for easier valuation, but I would bet it's due to being held accountable for climate change in the Netherlands.

    The fun thing is that Johnson c.s. are more concerned with the climate than the Dutch ruling class. The case they lost here, The Urgenda, has been an absolute first and the government is still fighting the outcome tooth and nail and are doing their darnest to not have to do anything.
    asur wrote: »
    MorganV wrote: »
    honovere wrote: »
    Shell is moving its business from the Netherlands to the UK. Less taxes, easier buybacks, and I think recently they've been successfully sued by climate activists in the Netherlands, if I remember that correctly.

    Get ready for Brexit success parties.

    Odds that this ends up a FoxConn situation?

    Corporation moves into the UK, gets all sorts of tax breaks, influences politicians, and does fuck all at best, drags down at worst, the local economy, and the Corporation pays fuck all in taxation?

    But as long as the politicians keep getting the cheddar, who cares about the other stuff, right?

    I assume Shell already has tax breaks in the UK, but this doesn't appear to increase them. Shell has a dual UK and Netherland structure and this would be changing it to UK only. They state it's for easier valuation, but I would bet it's due to being held accountable for climate change in the Netherlands.

    Well, the Dutch government suddenly wants to talk about repealing a certain kind of tax that the UK apparently doesn't have so that 'we' can hang on to Shell.

    It's all about the money either way.

    Ah, there doesn't appear to be any support for that outside of the VVD (our local version of the Conservatives, only difference is our sleaze smells a bit like Gouda)

    I think that a huge corporation like Shell doesn't give a fuck about the current rulings and instead looks at a longer term: how easy will it be to keep on influencing the government. I suppose they like their prospects in the UK better than in the EU. They aren't closing their offices (including the beautiful historic HQ building right here in The Hague*), so I guess we won't notice much of a difference.

    *The Hague has two gigantic early 20th century buildings in close proximity to each other: Royal Shell Plc in a neo-renaissance built in 1917 and the Red Elephant in Art Deco style from 1924 for the European headquarters of Esso. The Esso building is taller than Shell's in one of the most obnoxious cases of "who has the biggest?" between two oil companies.

  • CasualCasual Wiggle Wiggle Wiggle Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    Climate change denial is a pretty weird position for the Netherlands of all places. Half the country is below sea level as it is, even minor climate change related sea level rises are going to massively affect them.

    You'd think if anyone would be screaming about doing everything to stick to 1.5c it would be them.

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  • BogartBogart Turn Around, Bright Eyes Registered User, Moderator mod
    As a species we're not noted for recognising our own best interests. A Tory MP the other day got up to say his constituents didn't care about global warming and wanted cheap petrol. His constituency is predicted to be flooded regularly come 2030.

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