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[Hiberno-Britannic Politics] - We Have Always Been At War With Peppa Pig Land

BogartBogart Gonna Be A Man In MotionRegistered User, Moderator mod
edited November 22 in Debate and/or Discourse
It's not really fine.

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Posts

  • klemmingklemming Registered User regular
    Just wait, someday we'll look back on all this and laugh. Or cry.
    Honestly, it's sometimes hard to tell the difference from a distance.

    Nobody remembers the singer. The song remains.
    AntinumericRingo
  • surrealitychecksurrealitycheck lonely, but not unloved dreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered User regular


    former eu commission, treasury, etc guy and now researcher at lse + journo

    worth reading thread if you want to see details but the short version is that the eu seem to be planning to basically just dump a list of retaliatory measures on the uk gov in talks this week to in effect say "if u touch article 16 we will do all these things and u dont want us to do all these things" - with the detail that rather than having to wait for an arbitration decision to allow retaliatory measures they think they can do a bunch of stuff without needing to wait, so the gov cannot simply defer pain by praying the eu waits for the full process to run its course before doing anything

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  • evilthecatevilthecat Registered User regular
    Good on them but this'll feed right into the victimised lion the UK seemingly wants to push.

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  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    They've been using the EU as a scapegoat for literal decades, nothing was going to change that.

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  • surrealitychecksurrealitycheck lonely, but not unloved dreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered User regular
    evilthecat wrote: »
    Good on them but this'll feed right into the victimised lion the UK seemingly wants to push.

    well, as the current govs approach inherently rests on a contradiction - the eu is an oppressive superstate but also a paper tiger that will fold under the slightest pressure when confronted by Grit and Determination - there was no way they wouldnt enable one side of that narrative. i think theres a good argument that a lot of brexiters need to realise the actual meaning of what living next to a trade superstate that ur not in actually is - the fictional politics of the last 5 years have been enabled by that lack of real, obvious consequences!

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  • jaziekjaziek Registered User regular
    An enemy that is both strong and weak at the same time?

    Hmm, where have I come across that before?

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  • evilthecatevilthecat Registered User regular
    Perhaps the EU just needs to play along.
    On december 24th, germany should fly out whatever luftwaffe bombers they still have lying around and airdrop turkeys and other christmas supplies into london.

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  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    edited November 9
    jaziek wrote: »
    An enemy that is both strong and weak at the same time?

    Hmm, where have I come across that before?

    shhhhh, you'll ruin the ending

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  • japanjapan Registered User regular
    evilthecat wrote: »
    Good on them but this'll feed right into the victimised lion the UK seemingly wants to push.

    well, as the current govs approach inherently rests on a contradiction - the eu is an oppressive superstate but also a paper tiger that will fold under the slightest pressure when confronted by Grit and Determination - there was no way they wouldnt enable one side of that narrative. i think theres a good argument that a lot of brexiters need to realise the actual meaning of what living next to a trade superstate that ur not in actually is - the fictional politics of the last 5 years have been enabled by that lack of real, obvious consequences!

    There's definitely an undercurrent in the EU press of "wtf we've bent over backwards to accommodate these idiots and their misadventure, why are we bothering if they're going to try to pin the blame on us for the consequences regardless"

    Kayne Red Robe
  • CasualCasual Wiggle Wiggle Wiggle Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    edited November 9
    Wowee I sure can't wait to be the collateral in a massive trade war that will devestate living standards here just because idiots need to be taught a lesson about how the world works.

    Honestly any sour grapes I might once have gotten from seeing some of the not rich brexiteers get their comeuppance is completely overshadowed by the knowledge it'll fall indiscriminately on deserving and undeserving alike.

    2022 is going to be such a shit show and I just have no energy for it anymore.

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  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    The UK hasn't been acting in good faith in their Northern Ireland negotiations (are they even negotiating at this point?), so might as well switch over to threats of economic ruination. The UK is going to cast them as the enemy regardless, at least by busting out the big sticks they might, maybe, stop Boris from triggering Article 16.

    One thing I noticed in that tweet chain was a lot of talk about fish. Hopefully there's other stuff that the EU can do because the Tories don't really seem to care all that much about the fishing industry.

    Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
  • japanjapan Registered User regular
    Fishing is another example of the inherent contradiction in the UK government approach to this whole issue.

    It's simultaneously portrayed as an emblematic issue of critical importance, but not important enough to take any actual action over, which leads to this bizarre situation where the UK government is deliberately torpedoing the sector for no other reason than that it's an opportunity to blame the EU for something.

    There's no reason to think that any other industry, sector, segment of society, or aspect of day to day life will be treated any differently.

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  • Redcoat-13Redcoat-13 Registered User regular
    Am I supposed to have sympathy for the fishing industry, who voted something like 90% for Brexit?

    They believed the lies from people like Farage and Boris who never gave a shit about them before, that it would be better and are now surprised it’s not despite all the warnings.

    I’d not be surprised that if you asked them how they’d vote now knowing how things are, they’d still vote Brexit because they’ll still carry on believing that this is just a transition period and honestly this time it’ll be better.

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  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    japan wrote: »
    Fishing is another example of the inherent contradiction in the UK government approach to this whole issue.

    It's simultaneously portrayed as an emblematic issue of critical importance, but not important enough to take any actual action over, which leads to this bizarre situation where the UK government is deliberately torpedoing the sector for no other reason than that it's an opportunity to blame the EU for something.

    There's no reason to think that any other industry, sector, segment of society, or aspect of day to day life will be treated any differently.

    They don't seem to give a damn about the financial services industry, and that's one that is a huge percentage of the economy and, one would think, populated by the sort of people that the Tories would be willing to listen to.

    If the Tories aren't willing to help the banks, then they're probably not helping any industry. Maybe they'll help out an old buddy from Eton with a bit of light corruption, but that's about it.

    Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
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  • autono-wally, erotibot300autono-wally, erotibot300 love machine Registered User regular
    would it be illegal to crowdfund a lobby?

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  • evilthecatevilthecat Registered User regular
    would it be illegal to crowdfund a lobby?

    are you trying to start a superPAC?
    because I think that's how you start a superPAC...

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  • AldoAldo Hippo Hooray Registered User regular
    would it be illegal to crowdfund a lobby?

    Isn't that what all lobbies are? Just... funds from a very limited crowd funneled to a few specific lads with impressive rolodexes.

    LordSolarMachariuszepherin
  • CasualCasual Wiggle Wiggle Wiggle Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    would it be illegal to crowdfund a lobby?

    That's pretty much what charity/advocacy groups like stonewall are.

    Gnome-InterruptusZilla360
  • tinwhiskerstinwhiskers Registered User regular
    evilthecat wrote: »
    Perhaps the EU just needs to play along.
    On december 24th, germany should fly out whatever luftwaffe bombers they still have lying around and airdrop turkeys and other christmas supplies into london.

    An all time classic

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  • TroggTrogg Registered User regular
    would it be illegal to crowdfund a lobby?
    You're literally describing a trade union.

  • Brovid HasselsmofBrovid Hasselsmof [Growling historic on the fury road] Registered User regular
    God damn you Bogart, you got my hopes up with the thread title

    Commander ZoomZilla360
  • tbloxhamtbloxham Registered User regular
    Redcoat-13 wrote: »
    Am I supposed to have sympathy for the fishing industry, who voted something like 90% for Brexit?

    They believed the lies from people like Farage and Boris who never gave a shit about them before, that it would be better and are now surprised it’s not despite all the warnings.

    I’d not be surprised that if you asked them how they’d vote now knowing how things are, they’d still vote Brexit because they’ll still carry on believing that this is just a transition period and honestly this time it’ll be better.

    Voted for brexit in the ridiculous situation where they knew what damn fish they were catching, and how that fish is far less popular in the UK than it is in the EU! Like, their own area of expertise. The very fish and shellfish they pulled from the ocean and sold told them, "you need to remain in the EU"

    "That is cool" - Abraham Lincoln
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  • HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    tbloxham wrote: »
    Redcoat-13 wrote: »
    Am I supposed to have sympathy for the fishing industry, who voted something like 90% for Brexit?

    They believed the lies from people like Farage and Boris who never gave a shit about them before, that it would be better and are now surprised it’s not despite all the warnings.

    I’d not be surprised that if you asked them how they’d vote now knowing how things are, they’d still vote Brexit because they’ll still carry on believing that this is just a transition period and honestly this time it’ll be better.

    Voted for brexit in the ridiculous situation where they knew what damn fish they were catching, and how that fish is far less popular in the UK than it is in the EU! Like, their own area of expertise. The very fish and shellfish they pulled from the ocean and sold told them, "you need to remain in the EU"

    No, see, they were supposed to be able to kick all the French out of British waters so they could get all the fish, and then sell even more to the EU.

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  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    tbloxham wrote: »
    Redcoat-13 wrote: »
    Am I supposed to have sympathy for the fishing industry, who voted something like 90% for Brexit?

    They believed the lies from people like Farage and Boris who never gave a shit about them before, that it would be better and are now surprised it’s not despite all the warnings.

    I’d not be surprised that if you asked them how they’d vote now knowing how things are, they’d still vote Brexit because they’ll still carry on believing that this is just a transition period and honestly this time it’ll be better.

    Voted for brexit in the ridiculous situation where they knew what damn fish they were catching, and how that fish is far less popular in the UK than it is in the EU! Like, their own area of expertise. The very fish and shellfish they pulled from the ocean and sold told them, "you need to remain in the EU"

    No, see, they were supposed to be able to kick all the French out of British waters so they could get all the fish, and then sell even more to the EU.

    I am almost certain this was the actual thought process.
    (Not just the French, though, everyone except for Good Honest British Fishermen.)

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  • klemmingklemming Registered User regular
    British Waters presumably meaning all the waters?

    Nobody remembers the singer. The song remains.
  • mrondeaumrondeau Montréal, CanadaRegistered User regular
    klemming wrote: »
    British Waters presumably meaning all the waters?

    Given that brexiters still believe that Britannia rules the waves and all that...

    RingoFencingsaxshrykeEinzel
  • reVersereVerse Attack and Dethrone God Registered User regular
    mrondeau wrote: »
    klemming wrote: »
    British Waters presumably meaning all the waters?

    Given that brexiters still believe that Britannia rules the waves and all that...

    Well, if you keep dumping your shit into it, no one else will want it.

    Ticaldfjam
  • TroggTrogg Registered User regular
    klemming wrote: »
    British Waters presumably meaning all the waters?
    50% water, 50% mystery fluid.

    Drinking tap water in England: "Are you feeling lucky, punk?"

  • surrealitychecksurrealitycheck lonely, but not unloved dreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered User regular
    daveNYC wrote: »
    japan wrote: »
    Fishing is another example of the inherent contradiction in the UK government approach to this whole issue.

    It's simultaneously portrayed as an emblematic issue of critical importance, but not important enough to take any actual action over, which leads to this bizarre situation where the UK government is deliberately torpedoing the sector for no other reason than that it's an opportunity to blame the EU for something.

    There's no reason to think that any other industry, sector, segment of society, or aspect of day to day life will be treated any differently.

    They don't seem to give a damn about the financial services industry, and that's one that is a huge percentage of the economy and, one would think, populated by the sort of people that the Tories would be willing to listen to.

    If the Tories aren't willing to help the banks, then they're probably not helping any industry. Maybe they'll help out an old buddy from Eton with a bit of light corruption, but that's about it.

    one of the the funny things about all this is that Brexit as a process broke the normal importance of consultation with industry - because all consultations were in effect making clear our weaknesses ( we need to ask for x yz equivalence, this concession here would be good) and Brexit above all was the political objective + a general resentment felt in the pop at large about banks etc meant that ignoring eg investment banking trade associations was not costly

    however, all the old personal arrangements between companies and mps were still mutually beneficial...

    so in effect the con government has only corporate capture without actual legitimate business policy consultation which is kind of jawdropping when u think about it

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  • RingoRingo He/Him a distinct lack of substanceRegistered User regular
    I have no idea what you just said, but it feels like something that would be good to understand. If you @surrealitycheck or anyone else wanna try dumbing this down for me, I would appreciate it

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  • TastyfishTastyfish Registered User regular
    edited November 9
    Often the people who are hired to be regulators are the people from industry, as they the background required to understand the industry, and have industry experience over their academic counterparts (so know where the bodies are buried).

    Also, if you want to hire a senior industry guy - he's going to have to deal with the regulators, so someone who has experience working as a regulator and also has industry experience seems an ideal pick. He knows where the bodies could be, and where the regulators might look.

    This then starts a cycle, where you have to work in industry to get a job regulating it but you are doing that to get a job in industry, and will pick your sucessor to regulate you. This is regulatory capture - the industry is writing the rules, as they picked the guys regulating them and the people doing the regulation expect to be regulated as part of their gov/industry promotion track.

    What @surrealitycheck is saying is that the people advising aren't actually part of the industry any more, they just go from being an advisor to the government due to connections to power, to being someone who uses that experience to set themselves up as someone who has to be hired to give their government insight to companies (rinse repeat). Cutting out the middleman of actually having experience in an industry and just being a chum instead.
    Then the think tank stops paying you, but you have connections to hire yourself as an advisor to industry to explain what the government wants (as it never talked to you). So fishermen are never consulted, their advisors to government were never fishermen but instead old mates of the regulator or minister. The advisor then leaves their gov position to get fishermen to pay him to lobby on their behalf, but in the direction he recommends.

    [edit]Turns out that Boris didn't miss out on the corruption debate due to being at a hospital up North, he got back three hours before the debate...

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  • evilthecatevilthecat Registered User regular
    Tastyfish wrote: »

    [edit]Turns out that Boris didn't miss out on the corruption debate due to being at a hospital up North, he got back three hours before the debate...

    It came up in the special sitting yesterday.
    Something along the lines of "The pm can't even be bothered to turn up. It's a 10 minute walk but he'd rather sit at home drinking a cuppa".

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  • jaziekjaziek Registered User regular
    https://www.devonlive.com/news/devon-news/exeter-gender-clinic-laurels-not-6161193?fbclid=IwAR2XvifSVf2J0HRiCUmmB6JL7o921Ryq-h7Cakg2KxN0SAuqpwMPukcYoX4

    Remember whenever people bleat on about how it's too easy to transition in the UK, this is the reality.

    Five years without a single new patient, and another 3 more at least before anything will change. It's a fucking disgrace.

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  • HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    jaziek wrote: »
    https://www.devonlive.com/news/devon-news/exeter-gender-clinic-laurels-not-6161193?fbclid=IwAR2XvifSVf2J0HRiCUmmB6JL7o921Ryq-h7Cakg2KxN0SAuqpwMPukcYoX4

    Remember whenever people bleat on about how it's too easy to transition in the UK, this is the reality.

    Five years without a single new patient, and another 3 more at least before anything will change. It's a fucking disgrace.

    I don't know if that's really a counterexample. Seems like the argument would be that it's overloaded with patients because it's too easy to get a referral.

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  • Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    jaziek wrote: »
    https://www.devonlive.com/news/devon-news/exeter-gender-clinic-laurels-not-6161193?fbclid=IwAR2XvifSVf2J0HRiCUmmB6JL7o921Ryq-h7Cakg2KxN0SAuqpwMPukcYoX4

    Remember whenever people bleat on about how it's too easy to transition in the UK, this is the reality.

    Five years without a single new patient, and another 3 more at least before anything will change. It's a fucking disgrace.

    I don't know if that's really a counterexample. Seems like the argument would be that it's overloaded with patients because it's too easy to get a referral.

    The last patient to be admitted to that clinic, Obama was still President and Brexit hadn't been passed yet. That's not "too easy".

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  • ElldrenElldren Is a woman dammit ceterum censeoRegistered User regular
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    jaziek wrote: »
    https://www.devonlive.com/news/devon-news/exeter-gender-clinic-laurels-not-6161193?fbclid=IwAR2XvifSVf2J0HRiCUmmB6JL7o921Ryq-h7Cakg2KxN0SAuqpwMPukcYoX4

    Remember whenever people bleat on about how it's too easy to transition in the UK, this is the reality.

    Five years without a single new patient, and another 3 more at least before anything will change. It's a fucking disgrace.

    I don't know if that's really a counterexample. Seems like the argument would be that it's overloaded with patients because it's too easy to get a referral.

    The last patient to be admitted to that clinic, Obama was still President and Brexit hadn't been passed yet. That's not "too easy".

    Yeah

    If it was a case of too many unserious referrals you would expect a lot more turnover in new patients, not literally zero over 5 years

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  • CasualCasual Wiggle Wiggle Wiggle Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    edited November 10
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    jaziek wrote: »
    https://www.devonlive.com/news/devon-news/exeter-gender-clinic-laurels-not-6161193?fbclid=IwAR2XvifSVf2J0HRiCUmmB6JL7o921Ryq-h7Cakg2KxN0SAuqpwMPukcYoX4

    Remember whenever people bleat on about how it's too easy to transition in the UK, this is the reality.

    Five years without a single new patient, and another 3 more at least before anything will change. It's a fucking disgrace.

    I don't know if that's really a counterexample. Seems like the argument would be that it's overloaded with patients because it's too easy to get a referral.

    If there are a million people a year requiring cancer treatment and we have capacity to do 50,000, the fact we have 950,000 people waiting to be treated for cancer (increasing at that rate every year) is not evidence it is easy to get treated for cancer.

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  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    I work with those clinics quite a lot in terms of feedback and I don't think there's a single GIC in NHS England and Wales which isn't looking at a waiting list measured in years.

    It's not alone in that btw. When it comes to non acute services and mental health services in particular the waiting lists and capacity are absolutely dire. Occasionally it creeps into other areas too; A&E waiting times in some NI hospitals recently were over 40 hours for non life threatening ailments.

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  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    edited November 10
    I think people also don't realise how massively geographical access to healthcare is in this country either. If you live in Redcar and Cleveland for example, don't get ill. Don't get a quality of life annihilating condition. And don't get subject to domestic abuse cos there's about 12 coppers per night available for the entire area and if they do come and you need an ambulance you're lucky if it's same day.

    Solar on
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  • ElldrenElldren Is a woman dammit ceterum censeoRegistered User regular
    Solar wrote: »
    I think people also don't realise how massively geographical access to healthcare is in this country either. If you live in Recar and Cleveland for example, don't get ill. Don't get a quality of life annihilating condition. And don't get subject to domestic abuse cos there's about 12 coppers per night available for the entire area and if they do come and you need an ambulance you're lucky if it's same day.

    As someone with family in Redcar

    Yeah

    Shit is v bad

    fuck gendered marketing
    Zilla360
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