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[Hiberno-Britannic Politics] - No Thread Title Before Sue Gray Finishes Enquiry

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  • Rhesus PositiveRhesus Positive GNU Terry Pratchett Registered User regular
    It could just be that he's shit under pressure, but it's a behaviour that keeps working

    [Muffled sounds of gorilla violence]
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  • altidaltid Registered User regular
    I know there's no plan and that he's just shit at his job, but I laugh at the thought of somebody having to manage the press on it. How do you even begin to cover for such a waffling disaster of a speech?

  • BogartBogart Gonna Be A Man In Motion Registered User, Moderator mod
    You paste on a fake smile and say the people don't care about the occasional stumble in a speech they want him to get on and deliver Brexit social care or whatever the fuck you care about and you watch the papers back him and go about your day.

    The Express had one this weekend that was genuine North Korea levels of PATRIOT OVERLOAD.

    BORIS IS STILL A WINNER

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  • BogartBogart Gonna Be A Man In Motion Registered User, Moderator mod
    The editor of the Daily Mail is being replaced soon by the editor of the MoS, so this recent period of criticism will soon be replaced by headlines like JOHNSON'S SWEAT TASTES LIKE HONEY and the like.

    autono-wally, erotibot300GiantGeek2020SolarZilla360ElldrenshrykeJazztynicTicaldfjamShadowenSpaffy
  • Lord_AsmodeusLord_Asmodeus goeticSobriquet: Here is your magical cryptic riddle-tumour: I AM A TIME MACHINERegistered User regular
    Boris Johnson -"as a general tactic in life, it's often useful to give the slight impression that you are deliberately pretending not to know what's going on - because the reality may be that you don't know what's going on but people won't be able to tell the difference"

    Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if Labor had not first existed. Labor is superior to capital, and deserves much the higher consideration. - Lincoln
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  • jaziekjaziek Registered User regular
    edited November 2021
    altid wrote: »
    I know there's no plan and that he's just shit at his job, but I laugh at the thought of somebody having to manage the press on it. How do you even begin to cover for such a waffling disaster of a speech?

    I don't know what would make you think that they'd need to cover for it. The papers and the BBC will do that for them, or just ignore it altogether.

    Tories play politics on easy, where it's almost impossible to do anything wrong, and if you somehow manage it, it doesn't matter anyway, because a labour MP will have eaten a sandwich in a weird way, or decided to drink on a train.

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  • RedTideRedTide Registered User regular
    klemming wrote: »
    We are going to be the international Fucked Around and Found Out country for decades.

    Until Old Glory comes and steals that from you too you mean.

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  • CasualCasual Wiggle Wiggle Wiggle Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    jaziek wrote: »

    It's not the sort of talk I want to hear any more than you do, but again, this is the language of a party trying to get elected. These are the things you need to say to not be written off as a Marxist in England. If you don't make these noises, don't even bother showing up for the election.

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  • CasualCasual Wiggle Wiggle Wiggle Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    edited November 2021
    RedTide wrote: »
    klemming wrote: »
    We are going to be the international Fucked Around and Found Out country for decades.

    Until Old Glory comes and steals that from you too you mean.

    The difference between the UK and the USA is that the US is still a superpower, so can act like a cock on the global stage and get away with it. The reality is the UK is a windy little island in the North Sea that was a superpower 100 years ago. People don't have to deal with us, if we're too much trouble they can drop us and take their pick of many other countries in our weight class who don't fuck them around and would be more than happy to take our lunch.

    I'm sorry, but as much as Americans would like to be the best at everything, you cannot and will not beat the UK at being internationally irrelevant any time soon.

    Casual on
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  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    The UK is pretty relevant on the world stage, unless your benchmark for relevance is "is an actual superpower" which I think isn't really useful.

  • mrondeaumrondeau Montréal, CanadaRegistered User regular
    Solar wrote: »
    The UK is pretty relevant on the world stage, unless your benchmark for relevance is "is an actual superpower" which I think isn't really useful.

    The UK is relevant, but the UK is not worth what the UK is asking. Losing trade with the US or EU would hurt. With the UK, it's quite manageable.

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  • jaziekjaziek Registered User regular
    edited November 2021
    Casual wrote: »
    jaziek wrote: »

    It's not the sort of talk I want to hear any more than you do, but again, this is the language of a party trying to get elected. These are the things you need to say to not be written off as a Marxist in England. If you don't make these noises, don't even bother showing up for the election.

    I'm not surprised they're doing it, and I'm completely aware of why.

    It's the continued insistence that this is a party that I, someone who likes the idea of social democracy, should for some reason want to vote for, that amuses me. Or that the Labour party still has anything whatsoever to offer to people who care about actually fixing things, or avoiding a climate apocalypse.



    Also just...

    Lol.

    Even Armando Iannucci wouldn't have written something like that.

    jaziek on
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  • RingoRingo He/Him a distinct lack of substanceRegistered User regular
    Solar wrote: »
    The UK is pretty relevant on the world stage, unless your benchmark for relevance is "is an actual superpower" which I think isn't really useful.

    It was literally a comparison between the UK and the US about who can become an international pariah faster. So the US being a superpower is directly related. Also about hypothetical future irrelevance on the international stage, which would indicate the UK currently still holds an amount of international power they could lose

    So you're absolutely right, its just not germane to the post in question

    Sterica wrote: »
    I know my last visit to my grandpa on his deathbed was to find out how the whole Nazi werewolf thing turned out.
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  • pezgenpezgen Registered User regular
    jaziek wrote: »
    Casual wrote: »
    jaziek wrote: »

    It's not the sort of talk I want to hear any more than you do, but again, this is the language of a party trying to get elected. These are the things you need to say to not be written off as a Marxist in England. If you don't make these noises, don't even bother showing up for the election.

    I'm not surprised they're doing it, and I'm completely aware of why.

    It's the continued insistence that this is a party that I, someone who likes the idea of social democracy, should for some reason want to vote for, that amuses me. Or that the Labour party still has anything whatsoever to offer to people who care about actually fixing things, or avoiding a climate apocalypse.



    Also just...

    Lol.

    Even Armando Iannucci wouldn't have written something like that.

    Maybe it plays well in the CBI conference hall, but the only thing I can think of when I hear the word "fiduciary" is the bank song from Mary Poppins.

    Zilla360Kayne Red RobeFencingsaxSporkAndrewBethrynGnome-InterruptusShadowen
  • CasualCasual Wiggle Wiggle Wiggle Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    jaziek wrote: »
    Casual wrote: »
    jaziek wrote: »

    It's not the sort of talk I want to hear any more than you do, but again, this is the language of a party trying to get elected. These are the things you need to say to not be written off as a Marxist in England. If you don't make these noises, don't even bother showing up for the election.

    I'm not surprised they're doing it, and I'm completely aware of why.

    It's the continued insistence that this is a party that I, someone who likes the idea of social democracy, should for some reason want to vote for, that amuses me. Or that the Labour party still has anything whatsoever to offer to people who care about actually fixing things, or avoiding a climate apocalypse.



    Also just...

    Lol.

    Even Armando Iannucci wouldn't have written something like that.

    You can keep asking that question as much as you like, but you're going to keep getting the same answer. Because under FPTP voting green will give you a Tory government who are much further away on the political spectrum from the social democracy you want then Labour are.

    And yes yes yes Labour are not a social democratic party but they're closer to it than a party that is hostile to social democracy as a concept and considers it an extreme form of Marxism that needs to be stamped out.

    shrykeEinzel
  • jaziekjaziek Registered User regular
    Casual wrote: »
    jaziek wrote: »
    Casual wrote: »
    jaziek wrote: »

    It's not the sort of talk I want to hear any more than you do, but again, this is the language of a party trying to get elected. These are the things you need to say to not be written off as a Marxist in England. If you don't make these noises, don't even bother showing up for the election.

    I'm not surprised they're doing it, and I'm completely aware of why.

    It's the continued insistence that this is a party that I, someone who likes the idea of social democracy, should for some reason want to vote for, that amuses me. Or that the Labour party still has anything whatsoever to offer to people who care about actually fixing things, or avoiding a climate apocalypse.



    Also just...

    Lol.

    Even Armando Iannucci wouldn't have written something like that.

    You can keep asking that question as much as you like, but you're going to keep getting the same answer. Because under FPTP voting green will give you a Tory government who are much further away on the political spectrum from the social democracy you want then Labour are.

    And yes yes yes Labour are not a social democratic party but they're closer to it than a party that is hostile to social democracy as a concept and considers it an extreme form of Marxism that needs to be stamped out.

    I think that describes labour pretty well too, honestly.

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  • TroggTrogg Registered User regular
    We're racing straight towards the abyss.

    There are two options available to you: do you want to go fast, or go slow? How hard do you want the hand to be on the accelerator when the car hurtles off the cliff?

    Zilla360
  • jaziekjaziek Registered User regular
    edited November 2021
    Trogg wrote: »
    We're racing straight towards the abyss.

    There are two options available to you: do you want to go fast, or go slow? How hard do you want the hand to be on the accelerator when the car hurtles off the cliff?

    Do you want the person driving to be enthusiastically stepping on the gas, or going along at a steady pace whilst condenscendingly telling you that braking or turning are simply not things a car can do?

    jaziek on
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  • TroggTrogg Registered User regular
    I want Labour to be a functioning political party. I want hope for the future of this country. That's what I want.

    Zilla360
  • tbloxhamtbloxham Registered User regular
    Trogg wrote: »
    We're racing straight towards the abyss.

    There are two options available to you: do you want to go fast, or go slow? How hard do you want the hand to be on the accelerator when the car hurtles off the cliff?

    I think it's pretty clear that labor acknowledges there is a cliff. The conservatives want to drive off it. Labor says, "Well, the sweet spot is to drive RIGHT along the edge of the cliff, so we're going to turn, but not too much. There's a lot of cliff enthusiasts on this bus, and we need a few of them on our side"

    The problem is that they are RIGHT. For some reason, drive off a cliff and kill everyone is a very popular policy which seems to be impossible to persuade people not to like. You can talk about how Labor should try and write a more appealing, "Don't die horribly in a cliff accident" manifesto, and try to bring people around on not driving off cliffs, build enthusiasm in the 'not dying' demographic but people seem to just not care. We've gone off cliffs before, we suffered, it was just as bad as we said. All the bad things we said would happen, happened. The people who want us off the cliff, were those who got most injured in the last cliff jump.

    It seems the ONLY way to change these peoples minds even transiently is the threat of violence from a foreign power (WW2 and the cold war). Look over at America. Trump took charge. We went off the cliff. It was an unmitigated disaster for EVERYONE. Rich and poor alike. And now, despite it literally having just happened a few years ago, we see poor people up in arms about immigrant families not being starved to death, and bemoaning a dollar a month in union dues, while the rich ramp up the rhetoric and rage confident that THIS time, they'll be able to cage the beast.

    I don't see a path for how you change peoples minds when direct experience with the bad consequences of their decisions doesn't do it.

    "That is cool" - Abraham Lincoln
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  • jaziekjaziek Registered User regular
    tbloxham wrote: »
    Trogg wrote: »
    We're racing straight towards the abyss.

    There are two options available to you: do you want to go fast, or go slow? How hard do you want the hand to be on the accelerator when the car hurtles off the cliff?

    I think it's pretty clear that labor acknowledges there is a cliff. The conservatives want to drive off it. Labor says, "Well, the sweet spot is to drive RIGHT along the edge of the cliff, so we're going to turn, but not too much. There's a lot of cliff enthusiasts on this bus, and we need a few of them on our side"

    The problem is that they are RIGHT. For some reason, drive off a cliff and kill everyone is a very popular policy which seems to be impossible to persuade people not to like. You can talk about how Labor should try and write a more appealing, "Don't die horribly in a cliff accident" manifesto, and try to bring people around on not driving off cliffs, build enthusiasm in the 'not dying' demographic but people seem to just not care. We've gone off cliffs before, we suffered, it was just as bad as we said. All the bad things we said would happen, happened. The people who want us off the cliff, were those who got most injured in the last cliff jump.

    It seems the ONLY way to change these peoples minds even transiently is the threat of violence from a foreign power (WW2 and the cold war). Look over at America. Trump took charge. We went off the cliff. It was an unmitigated disaster for EVERYONE. Rich and poor alike. And now, despite it literally having just happened a few years ago, we see poor people up in arms about immigrant families not being starved to death, and bemoaning a dollar a month in union dues, while the rich ramp up the rhetoric and rage confident that THIS time, they'll be able to cage the beast.

    I don't see a path for how you change peoples minds when direct experience with the bad consequences of their decisions doesn't do it.

    If we drive right along the edge, we can easily chuck a few of the undesirables off while we're at it! It's a win win!

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    It seems like the basic problem is that Labour probably needs to tack toward the centre in order to pick up enough votes to win a majority.

  • Kayne Red RobeKayne Red Robe Master of Magic ArcanusRegistered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    It seems like the basic problem is that Labour probably needs to tack toward the centre in order to pick up enough votes to win a majority.

    Or they could take a stand on something that actually fires up the Left and/or the working class that is supposedly their base. Which one is the better call is up in the air but it's clear they need to do something if they want to ever win an election again.

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  • jaziekjaziek Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    It seems like the basic problem is that Labour probably needs to tack toward the centre in order to pick up enough votes to win a majority.

    Labour are far far beyond tacking toward the centre. They're basically to the right of the Tories economically at the moment, and trying desperately to mirror them on every social issue to not get hammered in the culture war.

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  • japanjapan Registered User regular
    jaziek wrote: »


    Also just...

    Lol.

    Even Armando Iannucci wouldn't have written something like that.

    [Alan Partridge voice] The only 'F words' I'll be using are ‘foreign investment’, 'fair trade', 'fiscal policy', and 'fiduciary duty', Lynn[/Partridge]

    admit it, you all heard it in your heads

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    It seems like the basic problem is that Labour probably needs to tack toward the centre in order to pick up enough votes to win a majority.

    Or they could take a stand on something that actually fires up the Left and/or the working class that is supposedly their base. Which one is the better call is up in the air but it's clear they need to do something if they want to ever win an election again.

    My point is that it's not necessarily true that "firing up the Left" generates enough votes in the right places to win.

    Firing up the working class just leads to the question of how you do that and what kind of political positions does that involve.

    The biggest democratic divide in the UK seems to be age anyway, not class. And old people vote more.

  • TroggTrogg Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    It seems like the basic problem is that Labour probably needs to tack toward the centre in order to pick up enough votes to win a majority.
    As soon as Labour finishes jettisoning the last remnants of the left, I'm sure they'll be invincible - they can crush the Tories in a landslide.
    Just like the Lib Dems.

  • HerculePyroHerculePyro Banished to the land of wind and ghostsRegistered User regular
    japan wrote: »
    jaziek wrote: »


    Also just...

    Lol.

    Even Armando Iannucci wouldn't have written something like that.

    [Alan Partridge voice] The only 'F words' I'll be using are ‘foreign investment’, 'fair trade', 'fiscal policy', and 'fiduciary duty', Lynn[/Partridge]

    admit it, you all heard it in your heads

    Well, now I do.

    Fencingsax
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Trogg wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    It seems like the basic problem is that Labour probably needs to tack toward the centre in order to pick up enough votes to win a majority.
    As soon as Labour finishes jettisoning the last remnants of the left, I'm sure they'll be invincible - they can crush the Tories in a landslide.
    Just like the Lib Dems.

    I doubt they can win without a lot of left-wing voters either. It just does not seem like they can win with only those voters either.

  • Zilla360Zilla360 21st Century. |She/Her| Trans* Woman In Aviators Firing A Bazooka. ⚛️Registered User regular
    Bad-Beat wrote: »
    https twitter.com /BBCPolitics /status / 1462734323652743173

    The Prime Minister, everyone. This clip is getting absolutely ripped to shreds by the Westminster bubble right now.


    Because we have always been at war with Peppa Pig Land. And War, War never changes. Or gets a decent haircut. :rotate:

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  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    edited November 2021
    jaziek wrote: »
    tbloxham wrote: »
    Trogg wrote: »
    We're racing straight towards the abyss.

    There are two options available to you: do you want to go fast, or go slow? How hard do you want the hand to be on the accelerator when the car hurtles off the cliff?

    I think it's pretty clear that labor acknowledges there is a cliff. The conservatives want to drive off it. Labor says, "Well, the sweet spot is to drive RIGHT along the edge of the cliff, so we're going to turn, but not too much. There's a lot of cliff enthusiasts on this bus, and we need a few of them on our side"

    The problem is that they are RIGHT. For some reason, drive off a cliff and kill everyone is a very popular policy which seems to be impossible to persuade people not to like. You can talk about how Labor should try and write a more appealing, "Don't die horribly in a cliff accident" manifesto, and try to bring people around on not driving off cliffs, build enthusiasm in the 'not dying' demographic but people seem to just not care. We've gone off cliffs before, we suffered, it was just as bad as we said. All the bad things we said would happen, happened. The people who want us off the cliff, were those who got most injured in the last cliff jump.

    It seems the ONLY way to change these peoples minds even transiently is the threat of violence from a foreign power (WW2 and the cold war). Look over at America. Trump took charge. We went off the cliff. It was an unmitigated disaster for EVERYONE. Rich and poor alike. And now, despite it literally having just happened a few years ago, we see poor people up in arms about immigrant families not being starved to death, and bemoaning a dollar a month in union dues, while the rich ramp up the rhetoric and rage confident that THIS time, they'll be able to cage the beast.

    I don't see a path for how you change peoples minds when direct experience with the bad consequences of their decisions doesn't do it.

    If we drive right along the edge, we can easily chuck a few of the undesirables off while we're at it! It's a win win!

    IMO, the ugly truth is that a lot of people, in both our countries, think of all of ... this a lot like chemo: it's worth taking a little poison to get rid of "the cancer". :bigfrown:

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  • CasualCasual Wiggle Wiggle Wiggle Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    It seems like the basic problem is that Labour probably needs to tack toward the centre in order to pick up enough votes to win a majority.

    Or they could take a stand on something that actually fires up the Left and/or the working class that is supposedly their base. Which one is the better call is up in the air but it's clear they need to do something if they want to ever win an election again.

    I can't tell you how many more elections Labour need to lose competing with Tories on their own turf before they're willing to give that a shot, but I can confidently say it's more than zero.

    GiantGeek2020CidTheSquidDamnItCohaagen
  • jaziekjaziek Registered User regular
    edited November 2021
    To contrast, here are Welsh Labour doing some things you might actually expect a labour party to do. Not perfect by an extremely long way, but not "selling off the NHS is good, actually".



    It is clearly not impossible to win elections on a manifesto based on something other asset stripping the country and making life worse for minorities, but the UK wide labour party clearly just aren't interested.

    jaziek on
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  • Bad-BeatBad-Beat Registered User regular

    An amazing summary of today's extraordinary speech fuck-up by Boris Johnson from the BBC.

    altidZilla360Dark Raven X
  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    It seems that even for today's BBC, there are still some lines. Not so much policy, of course, as basic (in)competence.

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  • TastyfishTastyfish Registered User regular
    edited November 2021
    Radio 4 coverage was just scathing, they didn't broadcast the Peppapig bit but instead just 30 seconds of him shuffling papers, saying 'forgive me' and then trying (and failing) not to constantly not say "Christ!" under his breath.
    And highlighting that is was never good to be asked "are you OK?".

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  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited November 2021
    It's worked for him literally every time before now.

    Fencingsax on
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  • Lord_AsmodeusLord_Asmodeus goeticSobriquet: Here is your magical cryptic riddle-tumour: I AM A TIME MACHINERegistered User regular
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    It's worked for him literally every time before now.

    It's the kind of thing that comes off as charming. Right until it doesn't.

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  • pezgenpezgen Registered User regular
    I've seen plenty of people asking why *this* seems to be the time when his bumbling, rambling, incoherent schtick is seen as a negative rather than part of his endearing charm. Apparently his speech at the Tory conference was just as awful, but the media didn't make anything like as much fuss about that... so the conclusion seems to be that he has, finally, worn out his welcome with Tory MPs and - possibly to a lesser extent - the rank and file members.

    Which just makes me wonder which appalling individual the men in grey suits are trying to line up to replace him.

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