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Maybe the real [Heroes of the Storm] were the friends we made along the way

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  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    To be more fair, not every new hero/rework was overpowered. There were a handful of new heroes that came out as wet farts that needed to be buffed, and some of the reworks were definitely undertuned as well.

    The best card in Hearthstone is your credit card.
  • The Escape GoatThe Escape Goat incorrigible ruminant they/themRegistered User regular
    forty wrote: »
    To be more fair, not every new hero/rework was overpowered. There were a handful of new heroes that came out as wet farts that needed to be buffed, and some of the reworks were definitely undertuned as well.

    counterpoint: the heroes who came out undertuned are showcases for why you lean towards OP at the start

    heroes who release bad get a reputation, and even if they're buffed up to par later the playerbase still generally thinks of them as a bad hero

    this is why they panicked so hard and buffed Zarya to kingdom come two days after she released bad

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  • MrBodyMrBody Registered User regular
    edited July 11
    SeGaTai wrote: »
    I dare you to invent a game that doesn't generate a meta

    Although the meta is why I first quit LoL. It became TOO dominate. Everyone threw a fit right from champ selection screen if you didn't perfectly fit into the meta. Eventually, Riot forced it into unranked games with pre-game role/lane locking. Zero flexibility. I hated it.

    (the STUPIDly overcomplicated and hidden rune system is why I quit a 2nd time)

    MrBody on
    ApogeeA Dabble Of Thelonius
  • DibbyDibby I'll do my best! Registered User regular
    edited July 11
    forty wrote: »
    To be more fair, not every new hero/rework was overpowered. There were a handful of new heroes that came out as wet farts that needed to be buffed, and some of the reworks were definitely undertuned as well.

    counterpoint: the heroes who came out undertuned are showcases for why you lean towards OP at the start

    heroes who release bad get a reputation, and even if they're buffed up to par later the playerbase still generally thinks of them as a bad hero

    this is why they panicked so hard and buffed Zarya to kingdom come two days after she released bad

    New Hero come out, New Hero strong. New Hero feel fun and good, purchase justified. Have Fun play them.

    vs

    New Hero come out, New Hero bad bad bad. New Hero feel trashcan dumpster fire, purchase feels regret. Have Bad Time play them.

    I was totally okay with the whole approach of New Hero being OP for a while and then getting tuned back down. It did NOT feel good grabbing the new Hero only for them to suck shit. It's also generally easier to pinpoint where a Hero is too strong and how to rein that back in as opposed to "this Hero is too weak; they have a good kit but it's just not working out, and we're not entirely sure what we can pinpoint as the problem here".

    Dibby on
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    fortyThe Escape GoatMMMig
  • WhelkWhelk Registered User regular
    I do think narrowing hero design to single ultimates is a good idea for most heroes. I think they have a 50% success rate with both ults being situational/useful. I'd rather they make an ability that fits the character's kit and tweak as needed. There's too much ability to just let it sit with one good one and one fun one. It leads to degenerate feelings about try-harding and shit like that. Like, Leo's March is crap in 99% of circumstances. Yet if he was forced to take it, I'd feel much better at using it to dodge CC or if there were fun talents attached to it other than at 20.

  • A Half Eaten OreoA Half Eaten Oreo Registered User regular
    edited July 12
    SeGaTai wrote: »
    These are the guys that made every new hero and rework overpowered on purpose just to make ppl play them more and get more data - and I dont think them having to sort that data by two different ults is what made the difference in how they tuned the numbers

    tbf everyone does this thing in particular. also helps with the hype cycle and pushing early sales

    re: the mount thing, yeah no the opportunity costs are still there. it's not instant. you just have much tighter windows to take advantage if the enemy team is paying attention. it's not worse, it's just different.

    a difference that makes offlane in HotS DRAMATICALLY more fun than toplane in league. You're allowed to actually play the game! You're not in an island for 30 minutes bc nobody can be assed to spend all the time walking up there, or instantly losing two towers bc you decided to take the time to walk anywhere else!

    This is actually why I mostly stopped playing HotS and am now a LoL top lane main. Used to love the idea of playing Sonya or Malthael get and advantage in a sidelane and have that be useful in winning the game. But it rarely felt like it was. I ended up switching to playing Johanna cause at the time she was great at grouping then quickly mounting to soak a sidelane then go back to the group (not sure if she’s still good at that). But that wasn’t fun for very long and made me give LoL a shot. I now spend most of my MOBA time pushing a sidelane as Illaoi. It’s incredibly likely I would’ve never stopped playing HotS if mounts were not a thing.

    A Half Eaten Oreo on
  • The Escape GoatThe Escape Goat incorrigible ruminant they/themRegistered User regular
    SeGaTai wrote: »
    These are the guys that made every new hero and rework overpowered on purpose just to make ppl play them more and get more data - and I dont think them having to sort that data by two different ults is what made the difference in how they tuned the numbers

    tbf everyone does this thing in particular. also helps with the hype cycle and pushing early sales

    re: the mount thing, yeah no the opportunity costs are still there. it's not instant. you just have much tighter windows to take advantage if the enemy team is paying attention. it's not worse, it's just different.

    a difference that makes offlane in HotS DRAMATICALLY more fun than toplane in league. You're allowed to actually play the game! You're not in an island for 30 minutes bc nobody can be assed to spend all the time walking up there, or instantly losing two towers bc you decided to take the time to walk anywhere else!

    This is actually why I mostly stopped playing HotS and am now a LoL top lane main. Used to love the idea of playing Sonya or Malthael get and advantage in a sidelane and have that be useful in winning the game. But it rarely felt like it was. I ended up switching to playing Johanna cause at the time she was great at grouping then quickly mounting to soak a sidelane then go back to the group (not sure if she’s still good at that). But that wasn’t fun for very long and made me give LoL a shot. I now spend most of my MOBA time pushing a sidelane as Illaoi. It’s incredibly likely I would’ve never stopped playing HotS if mounts were not a thing.

    You have my commiserations.

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  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
  • MMMigMMMig Registered User regular
    "Dead game"

    Ha!!

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    Witty signature comment goes here...

    wra
  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    edited July 13
    Those look like the patch notes of a dead game, yeah.

    Pretty sure I saw a tumbleweed blow by while reading them.

    forty on
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  • DibbyDibby I'll do my best! Registered User regular
    "Patch Notes: We patched the game."

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    Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
    MNC Doverfortymilk ducksWhelk
  • MMMigMMMig Registered User regular
    forty wrote: »
    Those look like the patch notes of a dead game, yeah.

    Pretty sure I saw a tumbleweed blow by while reading them.

    No that's actually new content.

    l4lGvOw.png
    Witty signature comment goes here...

    wra
  • MMMigMMMig Registered User regular
    If kt casts pyro on an aba at the top lane of warhead, and aba burrows to bottom lane, the pyro still chases, right?

    It'll prob burn out before reaching aba tho.

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    wra
  • InvictusInvictus Registered User regular
    MMMig wrote: »
    If kt casts pyro on an aba at the top lane of warhead, and aba burrows to bottom lane, the pyro still chases, right?

    It'll prob burn out before reaching aba tho.

    I bet it works like Zeratul, which would mean it chases unless the burrow happens exactly as the pyro would hit, in which case it would detonate harmlessly.

    Generalísimo de Fuerzas Armadas de la República Argentina
    forty
  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    MMMig wrote: »
    forty wrote: »
    Those look like the patch notes of a dead game, yeah.

    Pretty sure I saw a tumbleweed blow by while reading them.

    No that's actually new content.
    bdssqiyh0kp2.png

    The best card in Hearthstone is your credit card.
    Dibby
  • milk ducksmilk ducks Registered User regular
    Those patch notes are the cherry on top of this whole fucking event.

    fortyWhelkDibbySeGaTaiMunkus BeaverMMMig
  • MrBodyMrBody Registered User regular
    edited July 13
    Okay, we've done the worst lvl 20 ult upgrades.

    What would you say is THE worst lvl 20 upgrade, non-ults included?

    I nominate Hanzo's "2 charges of leap", but I'm sure there's worse.


    (I guess we could do 2 categories: objectively worst, and worst given the other lvl 20 choices of that particular hero)

    MrBody on
  • SeGaTaiSeGaTai Registered User regular
    I'm not sure I've ever seen someone pick sharpened stars on genji -
    Q - Shuriken now pierce all enemies hit. Swift Strike's refund grants 1 charge of Shuriken.

    PSN SeGaTai
    MrBodyInquisitor77
  • WhelkWhelk Registered User regular
    SeGaTai wrote: »
    I'm not sure I've ever seen someone pick sharpened stars on genji -
    Q - Shuriken now pierce all enemies hit. Swift Strike's refund grants 1 charge of Shuriken.

    I picked that talent once. A single time, but it was ARAM and I was curious. Shingan is super hard to hit two dudes with.

  • ArcTangentArcTangent Registered User regular
    Man, all the online multiplayer games I dabble in have been just godawful the last week, though I didn't see the official announcement until today, so I guess that shows how little I'm engaged in HotS at this point. I was even frustrated enough at other things that I reinstalled Overwatch and gave that another try, only to get the whole triple threat of sexist 14 year olds screaming into the mic, throwers, and just flat out AFK all in a 15 minute span.

    Summer, man. Fucking hell.

  • MMMigMMMig Registered User regular
    Worst lv 20....

    Butcher

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    wra
  • MMMigMMMig Registered User regular
    I think I read that Kara's 20 where he gets a fraction of the other lv1s was basically useless?

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    wra
    MrBody
  • MrBodyMrBody Registered User regular
    There are ones that are worse than Bolt of the Storm, but there isn't a single reason to ever take it on the 4 heroes it's available to. I think Garrosh might be the only one where it would be huge, but he doesn't get it.

    Also the ones that do get it are the ones that need it the least. Illidan, ETC, Sylvanus, Butcher.

  • MMMigMMMig Registered User regular
    edited July 14
    I'll have to disagree on etc, sylv, and butcher.

    Bolt is pretty great utility for all 3 to help engage or escape. Butcher especially since he needs help in both.

    Doesn't thrall also get it?


    Now, nexus swords is mostly trash.

    Also, Artanis' lv20 inner fire seems really bad for a lv 20?

    MMMig on
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    wra
  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    Thrall's technically isn't Bolt of the Storm, it's a Thrall-unique ability that does the teleport + Windfury.

    The best card in Hearthstone is your credit card.
    MMMig
  • InvictusInvictus Registered User regular
    MMMig wrote: »
    I'll have to disagree on etc, sylv, and butcher.

    Bolt is pretty great utility for all 3 to help engage or escape. Butcher especially since he needs help in both.

    Doesn't thrall also get it?


    Now, nexus swords is mostly trash.

    Also, Artanis' lv20 inner fire seems really bad for a lv 20?

    I take Nexus Blades pretty often on Illidan if I've stacked pretty well; the hunt upgrade is fine but I usually want to accentuate teamfight power at that point.

    Generalísimo de Fuerzas Armadas de la República Argentina
  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    The Hunt upgrade would be more worth it if it was something like "Activate to see the selected enemy hero for 10 seconds. You can Hunt this target from any range." Instead it's almost like a win-more button because of the 25% HP threshold. It's pretty trash.

    Otherwise there's a use for all of Illidan's 20 talents. Bolt is always good, even on a high-mobility hero. More AA damage is always good on an AA hero. The Meta upgrade basically gives you a better version of Nexus Blades.

    Bolt on E.T.C. is busted at higher skill tiers because it makes Mosh much easier to land and makes it possible to make some pretty sick plays. The other Mosh upgrade is similar, but you can still be CC'd out of the Mosh effect so it's arguably worse, particularly at higher skill tiers.

    The Escape Goat
  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    Anyway, the real answer to this question is Vile Infection, because 50% of the time a Naz player takes it they don't even have enough stacks to gain the benefit. This percentage goes to 90% in QM.

    SeGaTaimilk ducksA Dabble Of TheloniusWhelk
  • InvictusInvictus Registered User regular
    The Hunt upgrade would be more worth it if it was something like "Activate to see the selected enemy hero for 10 seconds. You can Hunt this target from any range." Instead it's almost like a win-more button because of the 25% HP threshold. It's pretty trash.

    Otherwise there's a use for all of Illidan's 20 talents. Bolt is always good, even on a high-mobility hero. More AA damage is always good on an AA hero. The Meta upgrade basically gives you a better version of Nexus Blades.

    Bolt on E.T.C. is busted at higher skill tiers because it makes Mosh much easier to land and makes it possible to make some pretty sick plays. The other Mosh upgrade is similar, but you can still be CC'd out of the Mosh effect so it's arguably worse, particularly at higher skill tiers.

    Tbh, I mostly just use the hunt upgrade as a true global, with the rest as flavor text.

    Generalísimo de Fuerzas Armadas de la República Argentina
  • MMMigMMMig Registered User regular
    I global-hunt the enemy catas on my core.

    Much faster than hearthing and better view.

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    wra
  • MMMigMMMig Registered User regular
    I'm sure morales has a 20 that's weak... I prob never read them all.

    Ray ray's trait 20 is kinda meh.

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    wra
  • MrBodyMrBody Registered User regular
    MMMig wrote: »
    I'm sure morales has a 20 that's weak... I prob never read them all.

    Ray ray's trait 20 is kinda meh.

    2nd Opinion- Reduce grenade cooldown to 2 seconds if you hit 2 or more heroes. This is pretty pointless because if you're hitting that many heroes, then you can get nearly the same effect from her level ONE grenade talent (3 second cooldown no matter what, which is arguable better).

    MMMig
  • MrBodyMrBody Registered User regular
    Stitches' Gas Bag

    Goes into the "not the worst on its own, by why would you ever pick it over the competition?" category

  • MMMigMMMig Registered User regular
    I wonder if we can get fan to take Alarak's Hasty Bargain and activate it multiple times.
    Activate to permanently reduce Alarak's Sadism by 4% and reset the cooldowns of his Basic Abilities.

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    wra
  • MMMigMMMig Registered User regular
    Oh btw, for those of you that don't follow him, Winter Gaming has started playing hots since the announcement.

    He's been big on SC2 for a very long time (casting mainly) and seems to be enjoying hots.

    He's brand new to the game so still learning heroes and such. He's hilarious though so I recommend watching him.

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    wra
    MNC Dover
  • The Escape GoatThe Escape Goat incorrigible ruminant they/themRegistered User regular
    MrBody wrote: »
    There are ones that are worse than Bolt of the Storm, but there isn't a single reason to ever take it on the 4 heroes it's available to. I think Garrosh might be the only one where it would be huge, but he doesn't get it.

    Also the ones that do get it are the ones that need it the least. Illidan, ETC, Sylvanus, Butcher.

    ah yes, bolt, the talent that is the same as the summoner spell literally everyone chooses to bring in League and is attached to a mid-tier item with no other attributes in DotA that's still considered one of the best in the game, is bad

    Like, on Illidan and Sylvanas I could see you calling it not the best, since they're already extremely sticky champions. And Butcher is slanted away from it by having one of the best ult upgrades in this game, though a melee carry who needs to be able to stick to his targets would still very much want it in vacuum. But the guy who expressly wants to get himself into a precise position in the middle of the enemy team doesn't want an instant teleport?

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  • MrBodyMrBody Registered User regular
    MrBody wrote: »
    There are ones that are worse than Bolt of the Storm, but there isn't a single reason to ever take it on the 4 heroes it's available to. I think Garrosh might be the only one where it would be huge, but he doesn't get it.

    Also the ones that do get it are the ones that need it the least. Illidan, ETC, Sylvanus, Butcher.

    ah yes, bolt, the talent that is the same as the summoner spell literally everyone chooses to bring in League and is attached to a mid-tier item with no other attributes in DotA that's still considered one of the best in the game, is bad

    Like, on Illidan and Sylvanas I could see you calling it not the best, since they're already extremely sticky champions. And Butcher is slanted away from it by having one of the best ult upgrades in this game, though a melee carry who needs to be able to stick to his targets would still very much want it in vacuum. But the guy who expressly wants to get himself into a precise position in the middle of the enemy team doesn't want an instant teleport?

    I agree. In the completely different circumstances and contexts of LoL and DotA, Flash and Blink Dagger are amazing.

    Flash is better than the other competing options.

    Blink dagger has a range of half the screen and a 15 second cooldown.

    Neither of those are the case for Bolt.

  • milk ducksmilk ducks Registered User regular
    Yeah Bolt is Blink Dagger, and it is wildly powerful on anyone who has access to it.

    The Escape GoatMunkus Beaver
  • A Dabble Of TheloniusA Dabble Of Thelonius It has been a doozy of a dayRegistered User regular
    Escape alone would sell me on bolt for so many heroes. Instead of just realizing that it's impossible to outrun anything so I guess I'll just chuck an ability at valla before she kills me.

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  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver You don't have to attend every argument you are invited to. Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    Part of the issue is that getting caught out because of bad positioning isn't as detrimental to your team in hots compared to League/DotA. And in hots, it's competing with other level 20 talents (which inherently have a TON of power).

    Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
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