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[Shin Megami Tensei/Persona Discussion] Demoncraft Throughout The Ages

245

Posts

  • KupiKupi Registered User regular
    Been seeing murmurings that people think AGI is broken since some people hacked their stat value up to 999 and saw no effect on their apparent accuracy, but I feel pretty confident that I miss more often when I'm attacking a high-AGI foe like Inugami. That leads me to believe that AGI actually functions something like the stat of the same name and function from Xenoblade Chronicles: it's not about how much you can succeed but what's the worst you can fail. That is, whoever has higher AGI can't miss (or has the default miss rate), and whoever has lower AGI suffers a bounded penalty to their hit rate. The higher your AGI, the fewer foes you'll meet who can actually make you take that penalty.

    ... or so I assume.

    My favorite musical instrument is the air-raid siren.
  • PLAPLA The process.Registered User regular
    Or maybe it's something stupid like "Physical Accuracy: Skill_Accuracy + ([Attacker_Agi/[Attacker_Lv/5 + 3]] * 6.25) - ([Defender_Agi/[Defender_Lv/5 + 3]] * 6.25)" where Attacker_Agi = 1 to 40 and Attacker_Lv = 1 to 255 again.

    Phys is strong, but Strength-based Almighty that can crit (or absolutely will crit and can't miss with Crit Aura) seems a very pragmatic one trick for every situation. There is a skill that increases crit-damage that turns into a third Pleroma if you can guarantee crits (you can).

  • A duck!A duck! Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited November 24
    PLA wrote: »
    Or maybe it's something stupid like "Physical Accuracy: Skill_Accuracy + ([Attacker_Agi/[Attacker_Lv/5 + 3]] * 6.25) - ([Defender_Agi/[Defender_Lv/5 + 3]] * 6.25)" where Attacker_Agi = 1 to 40 and Attacker_Lv = 1 to 255 again.

    Phys is strong, but Strength-based Almighty that can crit (or absolutely will crit and can't miss with Crit Aura) seems a very pragmatic one trick for every situation. There is a skill that increases crit-damage that turns into a third Pleroma if you can guarantee crits (you can).

    Yeah, Critical Zealot. It lowers non-crit damage, but it's not like that's a problem.

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  • DemonStaceyDemonStacey TTODewback's Daughter In love with the TaySwayRegistered User regular
    Does anyone know the actual +/- of critical zealot?

    That might be too much of an overkill for bosses while giving up some normal battle utility for my own preferences depending on that.

    Basically I want to avoid using critical aura. I don't really like the whole 1 turn boost next turn attack rinse and repeat thing and on a normal fight I'd rather just bonk something right away so losing some damage there(pending how much) could be more trouble than it's worth.

    Just doing like:

    Almighty attack
    Pleroma 1
    Pleroma 2
    Crit boost 1
    Crit boost 2
    resist
    MP when crit skill
    And then... I dunno maybe an accuracy skill if needed or maybe still critical zealot pending the numbers.. If my base crit can get to roughly 50% I'd rather that than using critical aura.

    I'd just always rather hit twice with a 50% chance to crit than skip a turn then hit once with a 100% chance to crit.

    Plus with all the magasuhi increasing skills you can get omo-crit up for guaranteed crits pretty often.

  • PLAPLA The process.Registered User regular
    edited November 24
    Critical Zealot seems to change crits from 1.5 to something like 2.0, and non-crits from 1.0 to 0.9. I don't have real numbers, though.

    There is one good Strength-based Almighty with a good crit-rate, that might be fine with the passive Murderous Glee instead of Charge Aura, and one good Strength-based Almighty with a bad crit-rate, that just doesn't crit very much without Crit Aura. The latter hits harder, though.

    In contrast, there are some multi-hit Physicals that seem much better than any Almighty at scoring partial crits with only Murderous Glee, which still results in extra press-turns.

    PLA on
  • DemonStaceyDemonStacey TTODewback's Daughter In love with the TaySwayRegistered User regular
    PLA wrote: »
    Critical Zealot seems to change crits from 1.5 to something like 2.0, and non-crits from 1.0 to 0.9. I don't have real numbers, though.

    There is one good Strength-based Almighty with a good crit-rate, that might be fine with the passive Murderous Glee instead of Charge Aura, and one good Strength-based Almighty with a bad crit-rate, that just doesn't crit very much without Crit Aura. The latter hits harder, though.

    In contrast, there are some multi-hit Physicals that seem much better than any Almighty at scoring partial crits with only Murderous Glee, which still results in extra press-turns.

    Oh hot damn ok that seems very worth it then. Sweet!

    And yea thats what I was saying about the phys skills. Easier to get extra turns with, but less raw damage. That's the benefit of running both. But if fight is res/blocking phys then you are just using almighty anyway so wasting slots on that could end up not being worth it. So if the hardest fights I'm not using phys I might as well go all in on murakamo.

  • TalithTalith 変態という名の紳士 Miami, FLRegistered User regular
    So pump only STR, maybe match VIT to your level, and then completely ignore the other three stats because you can guarantee hit and crit by yourself or bring a cheer leader.

    7244qyoka3pp.gif
    DemonStacey
  • DemonStaceyDemonStacey TTODewback's Daughter In love with the TaySwayRegistered User regular
    Yea that seems to be the takeaway.

    Pick MAG or STR. Go HARD on that one.

    Mix in some VIT as you feel necessary.

  • MaddocMaddoc I'm Bobbin Threadbare, are you my mother? Registered User regular
    edited November 24
    Just by virtue of the balanced innate attribute gains, Nahobino will have Agi on the higher end compared to many demons no matter what

    It definitely seems like the least impactful attribute to raise, which is pretty funny when you consider how much early guides pushed Agi as the most important

    Maddoc on
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  • A duck!A duck! Moderator, ClubPA mod
    Maddoc wrote: »
    Just by virtue of the balanced innate attribute gains, Nahobino will have Agi on the higher end compared to many demons no matter what

    It definitely seems like the least impactful attribute to raise, which is pretty funny when you consider how much early guides pushed Agi as the most important

    Yeah, without touching AGL, MAG and LUCK they all ended in the mid-70s. That's also with finding all the Miman.

  • BarrakkethBarrakketh Registered User regular
    edited November 24
    Area 2 boss spoilers:
    Lahmu round 2! Wow. This one is gonna be tough. Not sure if I'm missing some sort of trick or if this is just one of those real tough ones you need to go in with a good plan for. That move that heals all tentacles in phase 1 is a nightmare. So AoE skills seem right out and you have to focus 1 down at a time as far as I can tell. And manage resources well enough to have enough in the tank for the next 2 phases.
    Wooweee! This is SMT now!

    My experience:
    After failing the first time due to low MP and bad fusion (I removed Agilao from MC because I didn't think I would need it...then the second phase happened and Lahmu's resistances changed).

    After that I fused Muu Shuwuu that had Force Pleroma from Jatayu and Restore from Cironnup. Force Shards from MC, Mazanma from Muu Shuwuu, and King Bufula from King Frost meant that I think I might have prevented him from using Curse of Babylon in the first place, but even if he did it wasn't a memorable event at all.

    The second phase was basically keeping his attack debuffed and my defenses up because Purple Smoke was practically a 1HKO on almost everyone. Swapped Quetzalcotl in over King Frost at that point. Cironnup having Restore means you can use shards and gems to regen MP without resorting to Chakra Drops
    If you want to see a neat strat that relied on a skill I ignored because I didn't think it would work well check this out:


    Taunt is evidently super good. Lahmu wasted so many turns having his Bufula absorbed by Xuanwu that I couldn't help but laugh.

    Barrakketh on
    Rollers are red, chargers are blue....omae wa mou shindeiru
  • DemonStaceyDemonStacey TTODewback's Daughter In love with the TaySwayRegistered User regular
    Oh yea I have actually had a dedicated tank demon from as soon as I could get taunt and will continue that strat all game. Almost high enough to get a Orthrus with the Rakukaja+taunt ability which seems hella good.

  • GundiGundi Serious Bismuth Registered User regular
    pumping strength has always been the most effective way to build SMT protagonists. Occasionally magic works too, but strength is usually better.

  • PLAPLA The process.Registered User regular
    Barrakketh wrote: »
    Cironnup having Restore means you can use shards and gems to regen MP without resorting to Chakra Drops

    That's neat! I didn't realise.

  • DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited November 25
    I also have a somewhat unique way of playing... I have a set party of demons. Playing on normal to make that possible but I just continue to upgrade and fuse those specific ones into higher level ones so it feels like I'm using the same party just slowly growing. 1 tanky, 1 healer (with some spells) and one pure magic dealer with as much coverage as possible. I only have 2 extra demon slots unlocked just for ease of fusions but not going to bother unlocking more because I'm not trying to have a big army of actual usable demons.

    When things get hairy and my demons are dead I'll bring in one of the random special fusions that happen to be sitting around to help finish a rough fight but most of the time by that point it's game over.

    Also just for my own personal sense of balance I'm not gonna use the dampeners and I keeping the elemental items basically just for mitama killing(and I sell any I get beyond 5). I just like to keep my tools on my party instead of items as much as possible.

    That's how I've always played SMT and Persona games but here I find myself fusing and using a majority of the available demons every level or two.
    Oh yea I have not used a single statue/incense/grimoire/sutra yet either. Saving them for my late game demons/when I get more than I need for those demons and know I can safely use the excess on current demons haha.

    I'm the opposite. I use them pretty often throughout. Even one point can sometimes be significant, especially in Hard difficulty. This game is very mathy. So giving a middling demon a point or two in MAG can actually net you a victory where none could prior be had.

    Drez on
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  • KupiKupi Registered User regular
    Oh yea I have actually had a dedicated tank demon from as soon as I could get taunt and will continue that strat all game. Almost high enough to get a Orthrus with the Rakukaja+taunt ability which seems hella good.

    Getting Belphegor with Resist Fire and Resist Light (at minimum) and Resist Force (if you can swing it) is great fun. Then you've got a Taunter who takes half damage from... everything. Just, half damage from all sources.

    ---

    If you read the help topics in the World of Shadows, they mention "classic Compendium blunders to be aware of" such as fusing a raised demon without registering it, or using "register all" with a weaker version of a registered demon in your party. They should also warn you about the classic blunder of fusing and fusing and fusing until you've got, like, two demons in your party and they're both physical attackers. :lol:

    My favorite musical instrument is the air-raid siren.
  • MaddocMaddoc I'm Bobbin Threadbare, are you my mother? Registered User regular
    Gundi wrote: »
    pumping strength has always been the most effective way to build SMT protagonists. Occasionally magic works too, but strength is usually better.

    In fairness, that's partly because SMT protagonists can't even always learn magic

    97H9G7S.png PSN - Masked Unit | FFXIV - Laitarne Gilgamesh
    Gundi
  • PLAPLA The process.Registered User regular
    Someone testing damage said "friendship ended with Hassou Tobi, now Myriad Slashes is my best friend". The low accuracy is a problem, though.

  • MaddocMaddoc I'm Bobbin Threadbare, are you my mother? Registered User regular
    Low accuracy is a deal breaker for me, even if it somehow ends up being better overall

    97H9G7S.png PSN - Masked Unit | FFXIV - Laitarne Gilgamesh
    DragkoniasTalith
  • heenatoheenato Alice Leywind Registered User regular
    I'm in the last area and hoo boy am I losing steam hard. it's been kinda stinkers of sections since the end of area 3 and it's starting to get to me.

    M A G I K A Z A M
  • TalithTalith 変態という名の紳士 Miami, FLRegistered User regular
    I wonder which is larger, the accuracy penalty of those attacks or the bonus provided by the accuracy passives.

    7244qyoka3pp.gif
  • Andy JoeAndy Joe The AdirondacksRegistered User regular
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  • PLAPLA The process.Registered User regular
    Even with Dragon Eye, Myriad Slashes will sometimes miss. And it's five chances to miss with every use. Anything that guarantees a crit also guarantees a hit, though. And there's a passive that makes misses not cost press-turns.

  • TalithTalith 変態という名の紳士 Miami, FLRegistered User regular
    That is safeguard, right? I saw that on Valk and thought about using it on my mages when they just want to nuke the screen using their forte spells against a group of mixed resistance enemies.

    7244qyoka3pp.gif
  • ZundeZunde Registered User regular
    I just did a double take when my Mephisto just decided to slap a boss weak to fire for 12,088 damage with +9 Agibarion.

    Talithcj iwakuraAndy JoePolaritie
  • PLAPLA The process.Registered User regular
    Talith wrote: »
    That is safeguard, right? I saw that on Valk and thought about using it on my mages when they just want to nuke the screen using their forte spells against a group of mixed resistance enemies.

    Yeah.

  • ZundeZunde Registered User regular
    In the fourth big area the first section i decided to explore had the dude who sells you Miman locations

    talk about lucky

  • TalithTalith 変態という名の紳士 Miami, FLRegistered User regular
    Man, the area 3 boss...
    Was a complete joke of a fight if you remove her pylons. She couldn't even use her unique attack because it does nothing without power. I wonder if she just kills you with it if you leave all her pylons up.

    7244qyoka3pp.gif
    Gundi
  • cj iwakuracj iwakura The Rhythm Regent Chantry of NightmaresRegistered User regular
    I love the sheer verticality in some of these areas. I hope the later ones keep the trend going.

    ePITGr0.png
    Talith
  • GundiGundi Serious Bismuth Registered User regular
    Talith wrote: »
    Man, the area 3 boss...
    Was a complete joke of a fight if you remove her pylons. She couldn't even use her unique attack because it does nothing without power. I wonder if she just kills you with it if you leave all her pylons up.

    I wonder if you get any special reward for fighting them without doing any of them.

    Also is... Abdiel... nice? A nice archangel? In my Shin Megami Tensei?

  • TcheldorTcheldor Registered User regular
    Gundi wrote: »
    Talith wrote: »
    Man, the area 3 boss...
    Was a complete joke of a fight if you remove her pylons. She couldn't even use her unique attack because it does nothing without power. I wonder if she just kills you with it if you leave all her pylons up.

    I wonder if you get any special reward for fighting them without doing any of them.

    Also is... Abdiel... nice? A nice archangel? In my Shin Megami Tensei?
    if you leave them all up she has 8 press turns

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  • KaputaKaputa Registered User regular
    Area 2 is funny in the randomness of its boss encounters.
    "oh, there's the student I need to talk-"
    *French werewolf dandy drops from the ceiling*

    "Looks like this bridge is the way to-"
    *suddenly attacked by Irish swordsman*

    Drez
  • ZundeZunde Registered User regular
    My favorite part of SMTV game is doing the point meme every time a demon i recognize from folklore pops up.

    TcheldorTalithMaddoccj iwakura
  • KupiKupi Registered User regular
    Area 3 seems to be the point where you go, "oh yeah, there were all those guys that ate my face back in the previous zones? I wonder if I can bop them now" and then you absolutely can bop them.

    I've been fixated on that to the extent that after I finally start moving forward, there were a lot of side-quests of the form "I need you to--" "This thing?" "... yes." :lol:

    My favorite musical instrument is the air-raid siren.
  • KaputaKaputa Registered User regular
    edited November 26
    Kupi wrote: »
    Area 3 seems to be the point where you go, "oh yeah, there were all those guys that ate my face back in the previous zones? I wonder if I can bop them now" and then you absolutely can bop them.
    I find that some of them provide intermediate steps on the ladder toward the next boss.
    Like, the bird and the tortoise in the first area are the next two fights after clearing that area, before fighting Loupe Garou. The others are still a bit too strong for me (lvl 36, up against Loki), but a couple are almost within reach.

    Kaputa on
  • GundiGundi Serious Bismuth Registered User regular
    you can fight the toitle and beat him before leaving the first area. It's hard, but doable. You can fight the bird maybe halfway through the second area.

    The rest of the area 1 optional bosses don't try em unless you're around lvl 40 at least.

    For the area 2 optional bosses, except for Big Ellie Boy, you can do all the ones you have access to at about the time you get to them. They're hard but not impossible.

    KaputaOneAngryPossum
  • KupiKupi Registered User regular
    Just beat the Demon What Made That Huge Crater.
    I am sorely tempted to take Amanozoka's resistances and find some essences with Resist Fire and Resist Ice and just roll out around with three blockers and never taking full damage from anything but Physical. Who says a caster needs skill slots, that's what Gems are for.

    My favorite musical instrument is the air-raid siren.
  • WotanAnubisWotanAnubis Registered User regular
    Kaputa wrote: »
    Area 2 is funny in the randomness of its boss encounters.
    "oh, there's the student I need to talk-"
    *French werewolf dandy drops from the ceiling*

    "Looks like this bridge is the way to-"
    *suddenly attacked by Irish swordsman*

    Got to find some way to make sure players get to see those sweet new demons.

    Andy Joe
  • TalithTalith 変態という名の紳士 Miami, FLRegistered User regular
    Kupi wrote: »
    Just beat the Demon What Made That Huge Crater.
    I am sorely tempted to take Amanozoka's resistances and find some essences with Resist Fire and Resist Ice and just roll out around with three blockers and never taking full damage from anything but Physical. Who says a caster needs skill slots, that's what Gems are for.
    It's a shame heavenly counter is a unique skill. If I eventually play through again I'd probably try a high VIT/MAG magitank build and something like heavenly counter would be ideal.

    Has anyone tried Omagatoki: Luck? The only other magatsuhi I've tried are

    Eternal Prayer : Full HP recovery, ailment and/or death recovery for all allies (stock included). (you still have to swap members in but it can stabilize a struggling fight)
    Freikugel EX : Severe Almighty attack based on level to 1 foe. (fun to use and look at but if you are able to get high bonus fusions and some incenses on your mons then it gets severely outclassed)

    7244qyoka3pp.gif
  • GundiGundi Serious Bismuth Registered User regular
    edited November 26
    Megatushi skills that I have found really useful are:

    Rasetsu feast: Gives maximimum debuff for all stats to all enemies for standard timelimit. (Without skills it's 3 turns)
    Fairy Banquet: Gives maximum buffs to all stats for all allies for standard timelimit.

    -Both are really good to pop at the beginning of a boss fight. Once you have the buffs and/or debuffs up it's really easy to keep them up and it makes a big difference in a lot of fights. Worthless if the boss has the ability to remove debuffs or remove buffs though.

    Accursed Poison: Gives the worst status effect available to one enemy and applies one level of debuff to all their stats.

    -This one is also great for any bossfight that isn't immune to seal, as it prioritizes seal over any other status effect. Sealing their skills can prevent bosses from healing, allow you to a useful demon that you wouldn't otherwise wouldn't want to use because they have a weakness to one of the bosses favorite attacks, and it just basically lets you get a free turn or two on the boss. Even if they're sealed they will still try and use skills, which wastes their turn. And few bosses can do enough damage with just regular attacks to be truly dangerous.

    Besides that mana and healing skills aren't that good for boss fights but are real good for just running around in regular fights, and I should mention there's one skill I saw, Expanded Critical Aura, which seems like a situational better version of the default critical skill in that it also guarantees 100% accuracy, but only applies to strength based attacks. So you'd have to think about what party your using with it but with some parties it'd be a straight upgrade.

    Gundi on
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