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The [Labor] Thread is entitled to everything it creates

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  • OghulkOghulk Registered User regular
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Oghulk wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Oghulk wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Oghulk wrote: »
    Turns out a pandemic will raise the reservation wage. Shocker!

    Employers don't want to pay more because they aren't going to be able to walk it back later and cut everyone's pay without a lot of uproar

    Which is why, for example, traveling nurses are getting paid like 5x their normal rate to cover at hospitals where they "can't maintain adequate staffing," because they would rather pay a temp contractor more short-term than have full-time staff paid more and have to keep paying them that rate after the pandemic.

    I don't understand why you quoted me on this.

    ...Because what you said is relevant to what I said? I was building off your post?

    Okay see that's why I figured but I'm not seeing the connection. Reservation wage is a labor supply (employees) factor, but you're referring to labor demand (employer) factors. So I just didn't see the connection.

    I mean, you're right! Wages are sticky! But that's a bit separate from higher reservation wages.

    You're talking about supply/demand between wages/job demand from the clean, theoretical model assuming rational economic actors.

    I'm talking about the practical reality of the supply/demand that actually exists right now, where one side has disproportionate control of the scales and will act against their (theoretical, objective) "self-interest" because the economic model that our world operates in isn't about "and therefore, both parties achieve maximum benefit" but "how little benefit can we get away with giving the other side, because we can weather the harm longer than they can"

    I think you're misconstruing something. An increase in the "reservation wage" only means "people aren't willing to work unless the pay goes up". There is no theoretical model or assumption about self-interest in my statement.

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  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    TryCatcher wrote: »
    So, since the railroad supply line is actually critical, the orders already came from above: Go to work or go to jail:
    OMAHA, Neb. — BNSF Railway is asking a federal judge to block a potential strike by two unions began polling workers about a possible strike over the railroad’s new attendance policies, the Associated Press reports.

    BNSF filed suit against the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers and Trainmen and International Association of Sheet Metal, Air, Rail, and Transportation Workers-Transportation Division (SMART-TD), arguing that the issue is a minor dispute, which would not be a reason to strike under federal law. The railroad also said in its suit that a strike could cause “devastating and irreparable harm” and in this case would “strain an already overburdened supply chain.”

    Reading around, the ruling is on Monday, but everybody agrees that the fix is in. Neither the Biden admin or Business America will tolerate any further disruptions to the supply chains, and will destroy anybody that tries.

    Pretty cool how if you're working class the more important your job is the less say you get to have

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  • Ninja Snarl PNinja Snarl P My helmet is my burden. Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered User regular
    Companies charge consumers as much as they possibly can and still remain competitive. They then turn around and pour those profits into the pockets of upper management because the corporate attitude is "fuck anybody who actually makes all this work".

    Common goods getting cheaper can't somehow making the rich insanely more rich and also be dependent on short-changing the people doing the transportation. The pay has gone to shit because the labor power structure in the US has favored rich assholes for near on a hundred years now and they can rip off all the workers to fatten their own wallets with zero penalty.

    Which is why we even have to mandate minimum wage in the first place, because company owners will, historically, absolutely work their workers to death (and their children, if it was legal) while making up all sorts of justifications as to why the poor don't deserve money. The idea that employees get paid less to "pass the savings" on the consumer is total bullshit, all those "savings" going directly to the top few levels of management.

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  • SoggybiscuitSoggybiscuit Tandem Electrostatic Accelerator Registered User regular
    edited January 21
    Common goods getting cheaper doesn’t always help us either. I used to get Carhartt jeans because they lasted me years in heavy industrial work conditions (and were also 100% cotton). When I first started buying then they were union made in Wisconsin I think. Now they are made outside of the US by probably slave labor with inferior materials and they don’t last even a year. Hell, I had a couple pairs just outright split on me. I think they got maybe $5 a pair cheaper, but saving $5 wasn’t worth it for the crap they make now.

    My wife found me some of the old stuff on eBay in 2019 and the quality difference is remarkable. Given that I wear jeans much less now I’ll be good for another decade probably.

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  • HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    edited January 21
    Companies charge consumers as much as they possibly can and still remain competitive. They then turn around and pour those profits into the pockets of upper management because the corporate attitude is "fuck anybody who actually makes all this work".

    Common goods getting cheaper can't somehow making the rich insanely more rich and also be dependent on short-changing the people doing the transportation. The pay has gone to shit because the labor power structure in the US has favored rich assholes for near on a hundred years now and they can rip off all the workers to fatten their own wallets with zero penalty.

    Which is why we even have to mandate minimum wage in the first place, because company owners will, historically, absolutely work their workers to death (and their children, if it was legal) while making up all sorts of justifications as to why the poor don't deserve money. The idea that employees get paid less to "pass the savings" on the consumer is total bullshit, all those "savings" going directly to the top few levels of management.

    This seems to really be ignoring the actual facts. Transportation was effectively a cartel that had crafted regulation to keep new companies out of the market. It got deregulated. This resulted in greater competition and cheaper transportation costs. Wages for truck drivers were negatively impacted as a knock on effect of this.

    Edit: I would speculate in part because union shops got replaced by non-union ones. Which is a good argument for making unions mandatory.

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  • TryCatcherTryCatcher Registered User regular
    edited January 21
    Bloomberg reporter Jason Schreier with the news that Raven Software QA employees have formed an union and are requesting voluntary recognition:
    BREAKING: Testers at Raven Software, a division of Activision, say they've formed a union and are asking for voluntary recognition. The 34-person unit is the first-ever union in the big-budget video game industry. Filed to Bloomberg Terminal, story coming shortly.
    Sorry, I should clarify: first-ever union in the big-budget video game industry *in North America*.

    You can see the new Game Workers Alliance here:
    Our Principles:

    -Solidarity: The voices of workers should be heard by leadership. By uniting in solidarity, we can ensure our message is further reaching, and more effective. (1/8)

    -Sustainability: Shortened development timelines sacrifice project quality and damage the mental and physical health of our team. “Crunch” is not healthy for any product, worker, or company. (2/8)

    Realistic timelines and development plans are essential to achieving sustainability in the games industry.
    -Transparency: Leadership must communicate openly and frequently about any decisions that will affect the working life of their employees. (3/8)

    Work and quality of life suffer when changes are unpredictable and explanations are withheld.

    -Equity: Quality Assurance Testers deserve respect, appropriate compensation, and career development opportunities. (4/8)

    Quality Assurance is currently an undervalued discipline in the games and software industries. We strive to foster work environments where Quality Assurance Testers are respected and compensated for our essential role in the development process. (5/8)

    -Diversity: All voices deserve to be heard. Empowering underrepresented voices is key to fostering a truly creative and successful work environment. (6/8)

    We ask that Raven Software and Activision leadership voluntarily recognize our union and respect our right to organize without retaliation or interference. (7/8)

    We aim to work together with leadership to create a healthy and prosperous work environment for all people, to develop successful and sustainable products, and to support the enjoyment of our players. (8/8)

    QA is very much the worst treated part of game development as a whole, so this is very good news.

    TryCatcher on
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  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    Even assuming it actually drops prices, cutting costs by crushing wages isnt actually helping.

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  • enc0reenc0re Registered User regular
    edited January 21
    Even assuming it actually drops prices, cutting costs by crushing wages isnt actually helping.

    I agree with what you mean, but it depends on whose wages you're crushing. If some 1%ers make less money and in exchange a service that the working class needs gets cheaper, I'm all for it. Cough, cough, healthcare.

    enc0re on
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  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    enc0re wrote: »
    Even assuming it actually drops prices, cutting costs by crushing wages isnt actually helping.

    I agree with what you mean, but it depends on whose wages your crushing. If some 1%ers make less money and in exchange a service that the working class needs gets cheaper, I'm all for it. Cough, cough, healthcare.

    Sure but thats not what's been going on

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  • Gnome-InterruptusGnome-Interruptus Registered User regular
    enc0re wrote: »
    Even assuming it actually drops prices, cutting costs by crushing wages isnt actually helping.

    I agree with what you mean, but it depends on whose wages you're crushing. If some 1%ers make less money and in exchange a service that the working class needs gets cheaper, I'm all for it. Cough, cough, healthcare.

    Given how little of executive compensation is wages, I think we can hold true that crushing wages is universally bad.

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  • MonwynMonwyn Apathy's a tragedy, and boredom is a crime. A little bit of everything, all of the time.Registered User regular
    Mayabird wrote: »
    Lanz wrote: »
    Political commentator and co-host of the politics and news podcast Citations Needed Adam Johnson writes on the push to let 18-year-old do long haul trucking

    Short version: it’s an attempt to break labor, not solve a shortage of personnel


    I wrote about US media parroting trucking trade group talking points about "labor shortages" while celebrating a new "pilot" program letting teenagers drive semi-trucks

    Left unmentioned: a reduction in unionization, safety standards & 30-50% cut in wages

    https://t.co/P7WWMK0ou5


    I'm just gonna keep tapping the sign

    [Excerpt from cited article in Johnson’s article: “ You can’t solve a problem starting with the wrong diagnosis. If I can’t buy a Porsche for $1.98, that doesn’t mean there’s an automobile shortage. If I can’t get a fine dining meal for a buck, that doesn’t mean there’s a food shortage. And if appropriately skilled humans don’t want to work for me under the conditions I’ve set, that doesn’t mean there’s a human shortage.”]

    5b3bc01d1335b81d008b471e?width=700&format=jpeg&auto=webp

    Pay for truck drivers has dropped as much as 50% since 1980. One driver makes less per hour now than when he started in the 70s. According to this inflation calculator, prices have increased 360% in that time. So you have truckers making possibly half of what they once did during a span when prices more than tripled.

    The article about truck drivers interviews people who opine that truck drivers being bled dry is good actually because it makes stuff cheaper, except all those "savings" ended up going to big box store owners. Wal-Mart thrived, and 90% or more of new truck drivers now burn out bankrupt within six months.


    There isn't a labor shortage. There is a wages shortage.

    This chart is literally incomprehensible. Anyone with a month's experience in logistics will have a solid two dozen follow up questions trying to determine what it's actually measuring.

    uH3IcEi.png
  • Martini_PhilosopherMartini_Philosopher Registered User regular
    enc0re wrote: »
    Even assuming it actually drops prices, cutting costs by crushing wages isnt actually helping.

    I agree with what you mean, but it depends on whose wages your crushing. If some 1%ers make less money and in exchange a service that the working class needs gets cheaper, I'm all for it. Cough, cough, healthcare.

    Sure but thats not what's been going on

    Exactly. Where things haven't been giving is in the profit margins. All of the financialization that's happened since 2000 or thereabouts haven't just chipped away at salaries and net income, it's devastated it. If anything the underlying market pressures for wage increases are now exploding because of that.

    If profit margins have to decrease so wages can re-level at an appropriate point of living wages, then guess what? To hell with profit and let Wall Street suffer the consequences of their own actions.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Companies charge consumers as much as they possibly can and still remain competitive. They then turn around and pour those profits into the pockets of upper management because the corporate attitude is "fuck anybody who actually makes all this work".

    Common goods getting cheaper can't somehow making the rich insanely more rich and also be dependent on short-changing the people doing the transportation. The pay has gone to shit because the labor power structure in the US has favored rich assholes for near on a hundred years now and they can rip off all the workers to fatten their own wallets with zero penalty.

    Which is why we even have to mandate minimum wage in the first place, because company owners will, historically, absolutely work their workers to death (and their children, if it was legal) while making up all sorts of justifications as to why the poor don't deserve money. The idea that employees get paid less to "pass the savings" on the consumer is total bullshit, all those "savings" going directly to the top few levels of management.

    Of course it can. If you lower the cost of transportation (or various other things), you can make more sales at a lower price-point by undercutting your competition. The product gets cheaper and the company makes more money.

    Just because there are bad associated effects doesn't mean goods didn't get cheaper while profits went up. It just means that those things are not in and of themselves good things.

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  • enc0reenc0re Registered User regular
    enc0re wrote: »
    Even assuming it actually drops prices, cutting costs by crushing wages isnt actually helping.

    I agree with what you mean, but it depends on whose wages you're crushing. If some 1%ers make less money and in exchange a service that the working class needs gets cheaper, I'm all for it. Cough, cough, healthcare.

    Given how little of executive compensation is wages, I think we can hold true that crushing wages is universally bad.

    I’m thinking more that under a Medicare for All system, physician salaries would probably decrease.

  • HacksawHacksaw J. Duggan Esq. Wrestler at LawRegistered User regular
    TryCatcher wrote: »
    So, since the railroad supply line is actually critical, the orders already came from above: Go to work or go to jail:
    OMAHA, Neb. — BNSF Railway is asking a federal judge to block a potential strike by two unions began polling workers about a possible strike over the railroad’s new attendance policies, the Associated Press reports.

    BNSF filed suit against the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers and Trainmen and International Association of Sheet Metal, Air, Rail, and Transportation Workers-Transportation Division (SMART-TD), arguing that the issue is a minor dispute, which would not be a reason to strike under federal law. The railroad also said in its suit that a strike could cause “devastating and irreparable harm” and in this case would “strain an already overburdened supply chain.”

    Reading around, the ruling is on Monday, but everybody agrees that the fix is in. Neither the Biden admin or Business America will tolerate any further disruptions to the supply chains, and will destroy anybody that tries.

    Pretty cool how if you're working class the more important your job is the less say you get to have

    This potential outcome came up during my last joint workers' council meeting, and the consensus was that if the strike is disallowed, a slowdown should be observed instead. Failing that, allied unions are ready to post bail funds for striking workers who choose to stick it out and fight this nonsense (which flies directly in the face of the First Amendment) in court.

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  • LanzLanz Registered User regular
    Common goods getting cheaper doesn’t always help us either. I used to get Carhartt jeans because they lasted me years in heavy industrial work conditions (and were also 100% cotton). When I first started buying then they were union made in Wisconsin I think. Now they are made outside of the US by probably slave labor with inferior materials and they don’t last even a year. Hell, I had a couple pairs just outright split on me. I think they got maybe $5 a pair cheaper, but saving $5 wasn’t worth it for the crap they make now.

    My wife found me some of the old stuff on eBay in 2019 and the quality difference is remarkable. Given that I wear jeans much less now I’ll be good for another decade probably.

    Obligatory
    The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money.

    Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. Those were the kind of boots Vimes always bought, and wore until the soles were so thin that he could tell where he was in Ankh-Morpork on a foggy night by the feel of the cobbles.

    But the thing was that good boots lasted for years and years. A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that'd still be keeping his feet dry in ten years' time, while the poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet.

    This was the Captain Samuel Vimes 'Boots' theory of socioeconomic unfairness.

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  • MonwynMonwyn Apathy's a tragedy, and boredom is a crime. A little bit of everything, all of the time.Registered User regular
    Oh that chart is also 2017 numbers, lol

    Yeah truckers aren't getting paid that anymore, spot rates are literally 2-2.5x what they were mid-2019

    uH3IcEi.png
  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    enc0re wrote: »
    enc0re wrote: »
    Even assuming it actually drops prices, cutting costs by crushing wages isnt actually helping.

    I agree with what you mean, but it depends on whose wages you're crushing. If some 1%ers make less money and in exchange a service that the working class needs gets cheaper, I'm all for it. Cough, cough, healthcare.

    Given how little of executive compensation is wages, I think we can hold true that crushing wages is universally bad.

    I’m thinking more that under a Medicare for All system, physician salaries would probably decrease.

    Why, have their salaries historically been tied to the increase/decrease in costs of medical bills?

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  • KaputaKaputa Registered User regular
    enc0re wrote: »
    enc0re wrote: »
    Even assuming it actually drops prices, cutting costs by crushing wages isnt actually helping.

    I agree with what you mean, but it depends on whose wages you're crushing. If some 1%ers make less money and in exchange a service that the working class needs gets cheaper, I'm all for it. Cough, cough, healthcare.

    Given how little of executive compensation is wages, I think we can hold true that crushing wages is universally bad.

    I’m thinking more that under a Medicare for All system, physician salaries would probably decrease.
    Is there a consensus on this question? Last time I tried to search for info on this I got a lot of "yes it will" and a lot of "no it won't." Didn't spend enough time/don't have enough expertise to know which is true. Googling now gives me a similar result, more "no it won't" responses than I remember, but a lot of those are from pro-M4A organizations.

  • Gnome-InterruptusGnome-Interruptus Registered User regular
    Kaputa wrote: »
    enc0re wrote: »
    enc0re wrote: »
    Even assuming it actually drops prices, cutting costs by crushing wages isnt actually helping.

    I agree with what you mean, but it depends on whose wages you're crushing. If some 1%ers make less money and in exchange a service that the working class needs gets cheaper, I'm all for it. Cough, cough, healthcare.

    Given how little of executive compensation is wages, I think we can hold true that crushing wages is universally bad.

    I’m thinking more that under a Medicare for All system, physician salaries would probably decrease.
    Is there a consensus on this question? Last time I tried to search for info on this I got a lot of "yes it will" and a lot of "no it won't." Didn't spend enough time/don't have enough expertise to know which is true. Googling now gives me a similar result, more "no it won't" responses than I remember, but a lot of those are from pro-M4A organizations.

    I could see the amount you pay to the doctor going down, while the amount the doctor takes home at the end of the day going up.

    Less administrative overhead on dealing with multiple insurers and compliance costs of trying to get reimbursed by same, as well as costs to deal with bad debt from patients that are unable to pay or whose claims get rejected by insurance.

    Consider that the ACA had to fight to get at least 80% of premiums to go towards treatment/ services.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Kaputa wrote: »
    enc0re wrote: »
    enc0re wrote: »
    Even assuming it actually drops prices, cutting costs by crushing wages isnt actually helping.

    I agree with what you mean, but it depends on whose wages you're crushing. If some 1%ers make less money and in exchange a service that the working class needs gets cheaper, I'm all for it. Cough, cough, healthcare.

    Given how little of executive compensation is wages, I think we can hold true that crushing wages is universally bad.

    I’m thinking more that under a Medicare for All system, physician salaries would probably decrease.
    Is there a consensus on this question? Last time I tried to search for info on this I got a lot of "yes it will" and a lot of "no it won't." Didn't spend enough time/don't have enough expertise to know which is true. Googling now gives me a similar result, more "no it won't" responses than I remember, but a lot of those are from pro-M4A organizations.

    Nothing about universal healthcare forces doctor's salaries to go down.

    What does probably force that to happen is cost control measures.

    Since M4A can involve cost control measures, that's a potential outcome.

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  • enc0reenc0re Registered User regular
    I predict physician salaries decreasing from a comparative not a historical perspective. It’s my impression that the more socialist a healthcare system is on a scale from the UK to France to Germany to Switzerland to the United States, the lower the % of GDP expenditure and physician salaries.

  • DoodmannDoodmann Registered User regular
    enc0re wrote: »
    I predict physician salaries decreasing from a comparative not a historical perspective. It’s my impression that the more socialist a healthcare system is on a scale from the UK to France to Germany to Switzerland to the United States, the lower the % of GDP expenditure and physician salaries.

    I would guess that overall salaries decline but it would be more of an evening out between Specialists and General Practitioners so people like Family Doctors would end up getting paid more.

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  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    Hey, remember in the previous Labor Thread when it was mentioned that employers were falsely advertising pay rates and/or positions that they had no intention of honoring?

    Here's more reporting on that.

    NEW: Corporations like McDonalds and Staples promise fake pay rates and false positions only to take it away in the final offer.

    Applicants often have no choice but to accept or risk losing unemployment benefits.

    Our investigation with eoinhiggins_ uncovered this scam.

    Until this fraudulent behavior is reined in or punished, workers will continue to be mistreated, lied to, and manipulated.

    https://eoinhiggins.substack.com/p/a-must-watch-new-report-on-the-job

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  • CalicaCalica Registered User regular
    Why would you lose unemployment for turning down a fraudulent job offer?

  • mrondeaumrondeau Montréal, CanadaRegistered User regular
    Calica wrote: »
    Why would you lose unemployment for turning down a fraudulent job offer?

    Probably because the kind of legislation that makes you lose unemployment only cares about the "turning down a job offer" part.

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  • Martini_PhilosopherMartini_Philosopher Registered User regular
    mrondeau wrote: »
    Calica wrote: »
    Why would you lose unemployment for turning down a fraudulent job offer?

    Probably because the kind of legislation that makes you lose unemployment only cares about the "turning down a job offer" part.

    Quite a bit more insidious than that.

    This is part of a wave following the 2008 financial implosion where GOP controlled states, in trying to keep unemployment from looking like the absolute disaster that it was, changed the benefits laws to say that not only did you have to prove you were looking for a job but that you had to accept an "honest" offer or else not being able to get your unemployment bennies next time you needed them. Thus, the amount needed to be collected was drawn down and thus the state didn't need to collect this tax and thus something something better world for everyone. See: Florida whose latest financial crisis was the fact that they severely undercollected any and all unemployment and couldn't pay out what meager benefits they did promise without the federal government stepping in and giving them funds. Anyways, these changes in the law resulted in several lawsuits many of which were dragged on for long enough the states won by default since by the time courts heard them the people involved were employed our permanently out of the job market thus making the underlying issue moot. Fast forward to now and the same laws have been changed to not only keep you from being on the rolls next time you lose a job through no fault of your own but also to immediately kick you off your current term of unemployment (no matter how many guaranteed weeks you have left to go) if you turn down a job. For any reason.

    So if you were making anything above minimum wage, fuck you. You should be working you lazy slob, how dare you exist on the public's dime. Even if that dime is something you paid for through various payroll deductions. You should have thought of that before you lost your job or better yet, why weren't you simply born wealthy so you don't even have to worry about this kind of thing. Because, fuck you.

    In short, you would lose your benefits because the cruelty is the point.

    All opinions are my own and in no way reflect that of my employer.
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  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    Or to put it more succinctly: Means-testing is an excuse to be cruel without having to own it.

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  • ShadowfireShadowfire Vermont, in the middle of nowhereRegistered User regular
    edited January 22
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  • MegaMan001MegaMan001 CRNA Rochester, MNRegistered User regular
    Shadowfire wrote: »

    This is fucking wild as hell.

    For those who don't have time to read, a group of nurses and interventional radiology technicians (people who treat acute blood clot events, like strokes) found a nearby healthcare organization that had way more money and benefits to offer.

    The entire team ended up taking new jobs after their current employer refused to match their new offers.

    The legal team at their current employer got some fucking judge to grant an injunction and now the staff aren't working at their new jobs or their old.

    I am in the business of saving lives.
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  • Lord_AsmodeusLord_Asmodeus goeticSobriquet: Here is your magical cryptic riddle-tumour: I AM A TIME MACHINERegistered User regular
    Part of the argument of their current employer is also that them leaving would be a health risk for the community because their hospital is one for treating severe problems and the hospital they're moving to is one for initial treatment (I think, I could be misreading this). But A. Now NEITHER hospital has access to these experts, which seems like way more of a health risk to me and B. Based on the article, the only thing realistically keeping their new workplace from doing everything their old one did is... the presence of sufficient experts to deal with them. Experts like them. And the new hospital is in the same community area as the old one.

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  • MegaMan001MegaMan001 CRNA Rochester, MNRegistered User regular
    I'm not indifferent to that argument, but you can't keep people at a job when there's no contract. There's a reason why I've never taken an anesthesia gig when they produced a non compete.

    I am in the business of saving lives.
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  • LilnoobsLilnoobs Alpha Queue Registered User regular
    edited January 22
    I am indifferent. If the community health was so important, they would pay the workers better and provide better work life conditions.

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  • HakkekageHakkekage Space Whore Academy summa cum laudeRegistered User regular
    Shadowfire wrote: »

    Hate when news articles don’t link to the filings, or explain the legal theories at issue. From what I can tell, ThedaCare is suing Ascension, not the 11 employees at issue, and the claim seems based on some sort of poaching/unfair business practice, not labor law, but there is no way to tell unless a journalist for once reads the complaint or posts it (unless it was filed under seal but the hearing was open to the public it seems)

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  • Gnome-InterruptusGnome-Interruptus Registered User regular
    If it is based on some anti poaching law, it would be interesting if they end up getting it struck down due to freedom of speech/ freedom of association grounds

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  • HakkekageHakkekage Space Whore Academy summa cum laudeRegistered User regular
    If it is based on some anti poaching law, it would be interesting if they end up getting it struck down due to freedom of speech/ freedom of association grounds

    There is not likely to be an anti poaching law, but poaching an entire team under certain conditions (ie a covid surge) may meet some WI common law definition of an unfair business practice in that industry. But I do not understand the claim because no one has posted the complaint!!

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Hakkekage wrote: »
    Shadowfire wrote: »

    Hate when news articles don’t link to the filings, or explain the legal theories at issue. From what I can tell, ThedaCare is suing Ascension, not the 11 employees at issue, and the claim seems based on some sort of poaching/unfair business practice, not labor law, but there is no way to tell unless a journalist for once reads the complaint or posts it (unless it was filed under seal but the hearing was open to the public it seems)

    But as a journalist law is hard and complicated and I don't want to.

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  • HakkekageHakkekage Space Whore Academy summa cum laudeRegistered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Hakkekage wrote: »
    Shadowfire wrote: »

    Hate when news articles don’t link to the filings, or explain the legal theories at issue. From what I can tell, ThedaCare is suing Ascension, not the 11 employees at issue, and the claim seems based on some sort of poaching/unfair business practice, not labor law, but there is no way to tell unless a journalist for once reads the complaint or posts it (unless it was filed under seal but the hearing was open to the public it seems)

    But as a journalist law is hard and complicated and I don't want to.

    That’s why some local news orgs have specific court beats or, and bless the ones that do this, download the relevant filings and embed them in the article. I could try to hunt for this Wisconsin trial court docket but won’t bc im not trying to follow this case.

    Anyway, words of caution re jumping to conclusions on the outcome of just the temporary injunction hearing. The injunction was entered Friday and lasts only until Monday where there is another hearing to decide whether, after more time for the parties to hash things out, the standards are met to maintain the status quo while the claims are litigated. Nothing has been decided on the merits and it tbh seems only incidentally related to any broader labor issues (like bargaining power disparity).

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  • enc0reenc0re Registered User regular
    “Poaching” (which is a shitty, loaded term) typically refers to another company actively headhunting employees. In this case 1/12 employees got a new gig at Ascension for more money. They told their colleagues and 6 more applied and got jobs at Ascension. I bet there was some referral bonuses involved. All employees are at-will.

    If ThedaCare manages to sustain the injunction restraining their freedom of employment, at a minimum those employees serfs should be entitled to a huge hourly rate while being forced to work for ThedaCare.

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  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    Weird how they are "at-will" yet apparently that only means "works at the will of the employer," and not "quits at the will of the employee."

    Almost like that's the actual intent of the law.

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