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The [Labor] Thread is entitled to everything it creates

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  • HefflingHeffling No Pic EverRegistered User regular
    Kaputa wrote: »
    One thing these conversations are revealing to me is how little many workers understand about unions.

    "Yeah that sounds cool, but there's no way [the CEO] will ever go for that."

    "I wouldn't be against it, but management would definitely say no."

    No fucking shit guys. There is an absurd but seemingly common misunderstanding that we would need permission from the boss to unionize. The fact that there would never have been any unions if it worked this way doesn't occur to people because apparently none of them were ever taught any labor history.

    "I'm pretty sure our employment contract says we can't."

    I wanna punch whatever lying asshole spread that information. Aside from being false in this case, it is also illegal, but of course no one knows that.

    "What exactly is a union? What does it do?"
    Well at least that one's just a question and not a horrific misunderstanding, but damn, that is something everyone of working age should know.

    I am flabbergasted by the self-injurious ignorance of my coworkers. It's a lesson I've learned before but it never fails to shock and disturb me. I'd say "they should teach more labor history in schools" but I think it's pretty obvious why they do not; the situation I am complaining about is very beneficial to, say, our CEO and owners.

    Despite this, I haven't actually encountered opposition or negative sentiment yet. Of course I'm avoiding those workers who seem to worship our CEO (folks I would describe as having a propensity for boot-licking), so there's a fair amount of self-selection bias here.

    I think the above is a fair question. We all know that Unions will represent the workers to management, but more details would be needed on the specifics of how this is to work. Not all unions are equal, after all.

  • MonwynMonwyn Apathy's a tragedy, and boredom is a crime. A little bit of everything, all of the time.Registered User regular
    Seniority seems like a toxic system in general.

    It is, but the alternative is having the shop union head playing favorites, which is its own level of bullshit.

    uH3IcEi.png
  • mrondeaumrondeau Montréal, CanadaRegistered User regular
    Monwyn wrote: »
    Seniority seems like a toxic system in general.

    It is, but the alternative is having the shop union head playing favorites, which is its own level of bullshit.

    That's not an alternative to seniority, that's what seniority is in practice.
    The alternative is to at least use some random element or another objective factor like "number of time they got fucked by lacking seniority".

    Turn out that unions are not popular when new members have no actual protection because they lack seniority.

    ThawmusMatevMartini_Philosopher
  • HefflingHeffling No Pic EverRegistered User regular
    mrondeau wrote: »
    Monwyn wrote: »
    Seniority seems like a toxic system in general.

    It is, but the alternative is having the shop union head playing favorites, which is its own level of bullshit.

    That's not an alternative to seniority, that's what seniority is in practice.
    The alternative is to at least use some random element or another objective factor like "number of time they got fucked by lacking seniority".

    Turn out that unions are not popular when new members have no actual protection because they lack seniority.

    As opposed to right now, where they have no protections at all.

    Man in the Mists
  • mrondeaumrondeau Montréal, CanadaRegistered User regular
    Heffling wrote: »
    mrondeau wrote: »
    Monwyn wrote: »
    Seniority seems like a toxic system in general.

    It is, but the alternative is having the shop union head playing favorites, which is its own level of bullshit.

    That's not an alternative to seniority, that's what seniority is in practice.
    The alternative is to at least use some random element or another objective factor like "number of time they got fucked by lacking seniority".

    Turn out that unions are not popular when new members have no actual protection because they lack seniority.

    As opposed to right now, where they have no protections at all.

    No, not opposed. No protection because of no union is undistinguishable from no protection because of no seniority.
    Unions decided to use their new members as ablative armour, and then wondered why young people stop caring about unions.

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  • PaladinPaladin Registered User regular
    Do unions vote on leadership

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    Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
  • mrondeaumrondeau Montréal, CanadaRegistered User regular
    Paladin wrote: »
    Do unions vote on leadership

    Yes, and the people with seniority voted to keep using seniority for everything, and to negotiate away all protections for people without seniority during contract negotiations.
    You don't even have to worry about new members revolting if you make sure they either lose their job, or make their working conditions so bad they switch careers.

    I'm pro-unions, but that's a self inflicted wound right there. Short term, self-interested thinking by boomers destroying the credibility of unions for an entire generation.

    MatevjmcdonaldKaputaMan in the MistsIncenjucarjkylefulton
  • zagdrobzagdrob Registered User regular
    Seniority isn't in and of itself the problem. It's a problem or at least can be problematic if abused (as any system), but kind of in one of those 'worst except all the others'. Properly implemented seniority can be about as good and fair a system as you can get with some caveats.

    Now two-tier systems are absolute bullshit on their face. I don't blame anyone who hires in on the bottom of a two tier and getting told 'no matter how much seniority you may get, you'll never ever get what we have since your hire date is after X' for saying unions are a bunch of bullshit.

    FencingsaxGnizmojmcdonaldHacksawKaputaAntinumericMan in the MistsElendilGnome-InterruptusNobeard
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited May 11
    zagdrob wrote: »
    Seniority isn't in and of itself the problem. It's a problem or at least can be problematic if abused (as any system), but kind of in one of those 'worst except all the others'. Properly implemented seniority can be about as good and fair a system as you can get with some caveats.

    Now two-tier systems are absolute bullshit on their face. I don't blame anyone who hires in on the bottom of a two tier and getting told 'no matter how much seniority you may get, you'll never ever get what we have since your hire date is after X' for saying unions are a bunch of bullshit.

    You get two-tier systems outside of unions too. Everyone after X hire data getting a different retirement package, if they get any at all, or similar.

    It seems like a general reaction to attempts to cutback on compensation packages.

    shryke on
    jmcdonald
  • mrondeaumrondeau Montréal, CanadaRegistered User regular
    zagdrob wrote: »
    Seniority isn't in and of itself the problem. It's a problem or at least can be problematic if abused (as any system), but kind of in one of those 'worst except all the others'. Properly implemented seniority can be about as good and fair a system as you can get with some caveats.

    Now two-tier systems are absolute bullshit on their face. I don't blame anyone who hires in on the bottom of a two tier and getting told 'no matter how much seniority you may get, you'll never ever get what we have since your hire date is after X' for saying unions are a bunch of bullshit.

    You can mitigate the problems with seniority by adding other factors, like "how often person was harmed by lack of seniority", to give a chance to new members, but that mean that senior members will sometime not get what they want...

  • HefflingHeffling No Pic EverRegistered User regular
    mrondeau wrote: »
    Heffling wrote: »
    mrondeau wrote: »
    Monwyn wrote: »
    Seniority seems like a toxic system in general.

    It is, but the alternative is having the shop union head playing favorites, which is its own level of bullshit.

    That's not an alternative to seniority, that's what seniority is in practice.
    The alternative is to at least use some random element or another objective factor like "number of time they got fucked by lacking seniority".

    Turn out that unions are not popular when new members have no actual protection because they lack seniority.

    As opposed to right now, where they have no protections at all.

    No, not opposed. No protection because of no union is undistinguishable from no protection because of no seniority.
    Unions decided to use their new members as ablative armour, and then wondered why young people stop caring about unions.

    No protection due to lack of seniority has a solution, though. Work towards seniority.
    No protection due to Right To Work has no solution.

    And if we find seniority to be too flawed, what alternative do you propose that's better?

  • mrondeaumrondeau Montréal, CanadaRegistered User regular
    Heffling wrote: »
    mrondeau wrote: »
    Heffling wrote: »
    mrondeau wrote: »
    Monwyn wrote: »
    Seniority seems like a toxic system in general.

    It is, but the alternative is having the shop union head playing favorites, which is its own level of bullshit.

    That's not an alternative to seniority, that's what seniority is in practice.
    The alternative is to at least use some random element or another objective factor like "number of time they got fucked by lacking seniority".

    Turn out that unions are not popular when new members have no actual protection because they lack seniority.

    As opposed to right now, where they have no protections at all.

    No, not opposed. No protection because of no union is undistinguishable from no protection because of no seniority.
    Unions decided to use their new members as ablative armour, and then wondered why young people stop caring about unions.

    No protection due to lack of seniority has a solution, though. Work towards seniority.
    No protection due to Right To Work has no solution.

    And if we find seniority to be too flawed, what alternative do you propose that's better?

    "Work towards seniority" is not realistic when "no seniority" means "worse job security than no union" and "worse working conditions than no union."
    At the very least, unions have to acknowledge that non-senior members have rights too, and stop using them as ablative armour, if they want to remain relevant.

    ElvenshaeGnizmoMan in the MistsIncenjucar
  • TryCatcherTryCatcher Registered User regular
    zagdrob wrote: »
    Seniority isn't in and of itself the problem. It's a problem or at least can be problematic if abused (as any system), but kind of in one of those 'worst except all the others'. Properly implemented seniority can be about as good and fair a system as you can get with some caveats.

    Now two-tier systems are absolute bullshit on their face. I don't blame anyone who hires in on the bottom of a two tier and getting told 'no matter how much seniority you may get, you'll never ever get what we have since your hire date is after X' for saying unions are a bunch of bullshit.

    Every union that I've seen that signed any form of two-tier system saw their power vastly reduced in the following 5 years or so. Everybody starts asking themselves "Am I next on the chopping block?" which is an issue for the whole "collective" thing.

    Yeah yeah they are a poison pill from the owners and an evil plot to reduce labor power, ok. But any union leadership that falls for it is too stupid, too naive or too corrupt to be entrusted with power. Is a self correcting problem, though is not only the leadership that pays the price.

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  • PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    The seniority thing is absolutely poisonous to a union.

    Unions should instead be pushing for a hiring freeze and get the workforce reduction via attrition as people leave/retire. Or the company offers a severance package, or...

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  • PaladinPaladin Registered User regular
    I don't know about real unions, but student unions have the perk of people graduating from their positions regularly

    Marty: The future, it's where you're going?
    Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
  • LoserForHireXLoserForHireX Registered User regular
    Unions, like any democratic organization, are only as good and competent as their voting members.

    "The only way to get rid of a temptation is to give into it." - Oscar Wilde
    "We believe in the people and their 'wisdom' as if there was some special secret entrance to knowledge that barred to anyone who had ever learned anything." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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  • KaputaKaputa Registered User regular
    edited May 13
    Seniority and the two tier thing shouldn't be conflated. The former is problematic and we can debate its pros and cons. The latter is indefensible garbage and, as others have pointed out, makes younger workers less invested in/actively resentful towards their union, for entirely justifiable reasons.
    Heffling wrote: »
    Kaputa wrote: »
    One thing these conversations are revealing to me is how little many workers understand about unions.

    "Yeah that sounds cool, but there's no way [the CEO] will ever go for that."

    "I wouldn't be against it, but management would definitely say no."

    No fucking shit guys. There is an absurd but seemingly common misunderstanding that we would need permission from the boss to unionize. The fact that there would never have been any unions if it worked this way doesn't occur to people because apparently none of them were ever taught any labor history.

    "I'm pretty sure our employment contract says we can't."

    I wanna punch whatever lying asshole spread that information. Aside from being false in this case, it is also illegal, but of course no one knows that.

    "What exactly is a union? What does it do?"
    Well at least that one's just a question and not a horrific misunderstanding, but damn, that is something everyone of working age should know.

    I am flabbergasted by the self-injurious ignorance of my coworkers. It's a lesson I've learned before but it never fails to shock and disturb me. I'd say "they should teach more labor history in schools" but I think it's pretty obvious why they do not; the situation I am complaining about is very beneficial to, say, our CEO and owners.

    Despite this, I haven't actually encountered opposition or negative sentiment yet. Of course I'm avoiding those workers who seem to worship our CEO (folks I would describe as having a propensity for boot-licking), so there's a fair amount of self-selection bias here.

    I think the above is a fair question. We all know that Unions will represent the workers to management, but more details would be needed on the specifics of how this is to work. Not all unions are equal, after all.
    Yeah, you're right. I've spent at least couple hours this week in phone conversations with labor-related government officials and representatives of trade unions. Despite my passion for this, I did not have much understanding of how creating a union works or how unions are structured and governed. I knew the basics, but that's it.

    However, representatives of NLRB and an SEIU-affiliated union in my state have cleared up a lot for me. A woman I spoke with at length at the Office of Labor-Management Standards - to whom I was referred by my region's NLRB - was not only very helpful, but also really excited and fascinated that I was calling her to talk about this. I got the impression that it was pretty rare for a working class dude to call her office and ask for the nuts and bolts of how this stuff works.

    And the woman I spoke with at the SEIU affiliate happily spent over an hour on the phone with me today, advising me on all sorts of matters from union governance structures, usual rates of dues (often less than many seem to think!), common management anti-union tactics and how to resist them, and many other facets of the organizing process. One thing I found interesting was our conversation about racial divides and how management might exploit them. In my naive head, this was a one sided thing where management would exploit the racism of white workers to divide them against our Hispanic comrades. She pointed out that they can take the opposite route as well (sometimes simultaneously), playing on the insecurities and (totally justified) fear of racism that our non-white workers might feel. They may employ rhetoric along the lines of "Those white workers don't care about migrant workers like you, they're trying to improve conditions for themselves and they'll betray you for a buck, don't trust them." The fact that this fear tactic actually has legitimate historical justification only makes it more effective. I honestly never considered that aspect of it, though whether the bosses at my company are that clever is unknown to me..

    Hoping to hear back soon from the Teamsters local I called as well.

    This has gone from a vague "I want to do this" to "I know how to do this, at least on paper" over the last week. Actually doing it is another thing of course; I am well aware that unionization efforts usually fail and I'm not deluded about our own chances. But I still think we have a good shot at this and I have a much more coherent and detailed plan of action now.

    One other thing I learned is that my state's Labor Relations Board only deals with public sector unions, and that the NLRB is where I have to turn as a private sector worker. Apparently this is the case in many states.

    I am currently trying to brush up on my long-neglected Spanish in order to better facilitate communication with our migrant workers.

    Kaputa on
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  • MechMantisMechMantis Registered User regular
    Kaputa wrote: »
    Seniority and the two tier thing shouldn't be conflated. The former is problematic and we can debate its pros and cons. The latter is indefensible garbage and, as others have pointed out, makes younger workers less invested in/actively resentful towards their union, for entirely justifiable reasons.
    Heffling wrote: »
    Kaputa wrote: »
    One thing these conversations are revealing to me is how little many workers understand about unions.

    "Yeah that sounds cool, but there's no way [the CEO] will ever go for that."

    "I wouldn't be against it, but management would definitely say no."

    No fucking shit guys. There is an absurd but seemingly common misunderstanding that we would need permission from the boss to unionize. The fact that there would never have been any unions if it worked this way doesn't occur to people because apparently none of them were ever taught any labor history.

    "I'm pretty sure our employment contract says we can't."

    I wanna punch whatever lying asshole spread that information. Aside from being false in this case, it is also illegal, but of course no one knows that.

    "What exactly is a union? What does it do?"
    Well at least that one's just a question and not a horrific misunderstanding, but damn, that is something everyone of working age should know.

    I am flabbergasted by the self-injurious ignorance of my coworkers. It's a lesson I've learned before but it never fails to shock and disturb me. I'd say "they should teach more labor history in schools" but I think it's pretty obvious why they do not; the situation I am complaining about is very beneficial to, say, our CEO and owners.

    Despite this, I haven't actually encountered opposition or negative sentiment yet. Of course I'm avoiding those workers who seem to worship our CEO (folks I would describe as having a propensity for boot-licking), so there's a fair amount of self-selection bias here.

    I think the above is a fair question. We all know that Unions will represent the workers to management, but more details would be needed on the specifics of how this is to work. Not all unions are equal, after all.
    Yeah, you're right. I've spent at least couple hours this week in phone conversations with labor-related government officials and representatives of trade unions. Despite my passion for this, I did not have much understanding of how creating a union works or how unions are structured and governed. I knew the basics, but that's it.

    However, representatives of NLRB and an SEIU-affiliated union in my state have cleared up a lot for me. A woman I spoke with at length at the Office of Labor-Management Standards - to whom I was referred by my region's NLRB - was not only very helpful, but also really excited and fascinated that I was calling her to talk about this. I got the impression that it was pretty rare for a working class dude to call her office and ask for the nuts and bolts of how this stuff works.

    And the woman I spoke with at the SEIU affiliate happily spent over an hour on the phone with me today, advising me on all sorts of matters from union governance structures, usual rates of dues (often less than many seem to think!), common management anti-union tactics and how to resist them, and many other facets of the organizing process. One thing I found interesting was our conversation about racial divides and how management might exploit them. In my naive head, this was a one sided thing where management would exploit the racism of white workers to divide them against our Hispanic comrades. She pointed out that they can take the opposite route as well (sometimes simultaneously), playing on the insecurities and (totally justified) fear of racism that our non-white workers might feel. They may employ rhetoric along the lines of "Those white workers don't care about migrant workers like you, they're trying to improve conditions for themselves and they'll betray you for a buck, don't trust them." The fact that this fear tactic actually has legitimate historical justification only makes it more effective. I honestly never considered that aspect of it, though whether the bosses at my company are that clever is unknown to me..

    Hoping to hear back soon from the Teamsters local I called as well.

    This has gone from a vague "I want to do this" to "I know how to do this, at least on paper" over the last week. Actually doing it is another thing of course; I am well aware that unionization efforts usually fail and I'm not deluded about our own chances. But I still think we have a good shot at this and I have a much more coherent and detailed plan of action now.

    One other thing I learned is that my state's Labor Relations Board only deals with public sector unions, and that the NLRB is where I have to turn as a private sector worker. Apparently this is the case in many states.

    I am currently trying to brush up on my long-neglected Spanish in order to better facilitate communication with our migrant workers.

    What you are doing is awesome as hell, for the record.

    dkj3oHf.jpg
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  • KaputaKaputa Registered User regular
    edited May 13
    A Starbucks about half an hour north of my town just unionized today! First in my state! I think I might go to the one <10 minutes away for my coffee tomorrow morning and subtly mention it/loudly yell "YOU GUYS SHOULD TOO". Watching this happen to Starbucks after Starbucks is impressing on me how important momentum is to organizing and morale.
    MechMantis wrote: »
    Kaputa wrote: »
    Seniority and the two tier thing shouldn't be conflated. The former is problematic and we can debate its pros and cons. The latter is indefensible garbage and, as others have pointed out, makes younger workers less invested in/actively resentful towards their union, for entirely justifiable reasons.
    Heffling wrote: »
    Kaputa wrote: »
    One thing these conversations are revealing to me is how little many workers understand about unions.

    "Yeah that sounds cool, but there's no way [the CEO] will ever go for that."

    "I wouldn't be against it, but management would definitely say no."

    No fucking shit guys. There is an absurd but seemingly common misunderstanding that we would need permission from the boss to unionize. The fact that there would never have been any unions if it worked this way doesn't occur to people because apparently none of them were ever taught any labor history.

    "I'm pretty sure our employment contract says we can't."

    I wanna punch whatever lying asshole spread that information. Aside from being false in this case, it is also illegal, but of course no one knows that.

    "What exactly is a union? What does it do?"
    Well at least that one's just a question and not a horrific misunderstanding, but damn, that is something everyone of working age should know.

    I am flabbergasted by the self-injurious ignorance of my coworkers. It's a lesson I've learned before but it never fails to shock and disturb me. I'd say "they should teach more labor history in schools" but I think it's pretty obvious why they do not; the situation I am complaining about is very beneficial to, say, our CEO and owners.

    Despite this, I haven't actually encountered opposition or negative sentiment yet. Of course I'm avoiding those workers who seem to worship our CEO (folks I would describe as having a propensity for boot-licking), so there's a fair amount of self-selection bias here.

    I think the above is a fair question. We all know that Unions will represent the workers to management, but more details would be needed on the specifics of how this is to work. Not all unions are equal, after all.
    Yeah, you're right. I've spent at least couple hours this week in phone conversations with labor-related government officials and representatives of trade unions. Despite my passion for this, I did not have much understanding of how creating a union works or how unions are structured and governed. I knew the basics, but that's it.

    However, representatives of NLRB and an SEIU-affiliated union in my state have cleared up a lot for me. A woman I spoke with at length at the Office of Labor-Management Standards - to whom I was referred by my region's NLRB - was not only very helpful, but also really excited and fascinated that I was calling her to talk about this. I got the impression that it was pretty rare for a working class dude to call her office and ask for the nuts and bolts of how this stuff works.

    And the woman I spoke with at the SEIU affiliate happily spent over an hour on the phone with me today, advising me on all sorts of matters from union governance structures, usual rates of dues (often less than many seem to think!), common management anti-union tactics and how to resist them, and many other facets of the organizing process. One thing I found interesting was our conversation about racial divides and how management might exploit them. In my naive head, this was a one sided thing where management would exploit the racism of white workers to divide them against our Hispanic comrades. She pointed out that they can take the opposite route as well (sometimes simultaneously), playing on the insecurities and (totally justified) fear of racism that our non-white workers might feel. They may employ rhetoric along the lines of "Those white workers don't care about migrant workers like you, they're trying to improve conditions for themselves and they'll betray you for a buck, don't trust them." The fact that this fear tactic actually has legitimate historical justification only makes it more effective. I honestly never considered that aspect of it, though whether the bosses at my company are that clever is unknown to me..

    Hoping to hear back soon from the Teamsters local I called as well.

    This has gone from a vague "I want to do this" to "I know how to do this, at least on paper" over the last week. Actually doing it is another thing of course; I am well aware that unionization efforts usually fail and I'm not deluded about our own chances. But I still think we have a good shot at this and I have a much more coherent and detailed plan of action now.

    One other thing I learned is that my state's Labor Relations Board only deals with public sector unions, and that the NLRB is where I have to turn as a private sector worker. Apparently this is the case in many states.

    I am currently trying to brush up on my long-neglected Spanish in order to better facilitate communication with our migrant workers.

    What you are doing is awesome as hell, for the record.
    Thank you!

    Kaputa on
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  • ShadowfireShadowfire Vermont, in the middle of nowhereRegistered User regular
    Target workers in VA are filing for NLRB elections.
    Target workers at Store 1292 in Christiansburg, Virginia have petitioned for collective bargaining with the National Labor Relations Board (NLRB) after Target Corporation issued no response to a request for voluntary recognition on April 26th, 2022.

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  • KaputaKaputa Registered User regular
    edited May 13
    Shadowfire wrote: »
    Target workers in VA are filing for NLRB elections.
    Target workers at Store 1292 in Christiansburg, Virginia have petitioned for collective bargaining with the National Labor Relations Board (NLRB) after Target Corporation issued no response to a request for voluntary recognition on April 26th, 2022.
    Fucking yes.

    This is amazing. What is happening? Why can service employees organize all of a sudden? Is it the low unemployment and high demand for work? Is it generational as Shryke hypothesized last page? Is the momentum of seeing it elsewhere and realizing it's actually possible? That last one is what has spurred my coworkers and I more than anything. But I'm not even sure if the three of those combined are sufficient to explain this wave of service sector organizing.

    Kaputa on
    HacksawBullhead
  • Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular
    Kaputa wrote: »
    Shadowfire wrote: »
    Target workers in VA are filing for NLRB elections.
    Target workers at Store 1292 in Christiansburg, Virginia have petitioned for collective bargaining with the National Labor Relations Board (NLRB) after Target Corporation issued no response to a request for voluntary recognition on April 26th, 2022.
    Fucking yes.

    This is amazing. What is happening? Why can service employees organize all of a sudden? Is it the low unemployment and high demand for work? Is it generational as Shryke hypothesized last page? Is the momentum of seeing it elsewhere and realizing it's actually possible? That last one is what has spurred my coworkers and I more than anything. But I'm not even sure if the three of those combined are sufficient to explain this wave of service sector organizing.

    All of the above probably.

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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    Kaputa wrote: »
    Shadowfire wrote: »
    Target workers in VA are filing for NLRB elections.
    Target workers at Store 1292 in Christiansburg, Virginia have petitioned for collective bargaining with the National Labor Relations Board (NLRB) after Target Corporation issued no response to a request for voluntary recognition on April 26th, 2022.
    Fucking yes.

    This is amazing. What is happening? Why can service employees organize all of a sudden? Is it the low unemployment and high demand for work? Is it generational as Shryke hypothesized last page? Is the momentum of seeing it elsewhere and realizing it's actually possible? That last one is what has spurred my coworkers and I more than anything. But I'm not even sure if the three of those combined are sufficient to explain this wave of service sector organizing.

    It's a confluence of factors. The Boomer retirement shift, the collapse of individualism culturally, success breeding success - all are playing a part.

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  • RedTideRedTide Registered User regular
    Kaputa wrote: »
    Shadowfire wrote: »
    Target workers in VA are filing for NLRB elections.
    Target workers at Store 1292 in Christiansburg, Virginia have petitioned for collective bargaining with the National Labor Relations Board (NLRB) after Target Corporation issued no response to a request for voluntary recognition on April 26th, 2022.
    Fucking yes.

    This is amazing. What is happening? Why can service employees organize all of a sudden? Is it the low unemployment and high demand for work? Is it generational as Shryke hypothesized last page? Is the momentum of seeing it elsewhere and realizing it's actually possible? That last one is what has spurred my coworkers and I more than anything. But I'm not even sure if the three of those combined are sufficient to explain this wave of service sector organizing.

    Part of it I think is being driven by the fact that for at least thirty years retail stores did their best to basically staff with second jobbers, just out of high schoolers and part timers whose primary job was child rearing. Management being the only career track.

    I think the last ten/fifteen years has seen more people forced into these jobs as their primary means of income and for longer and maybe we've hit some kind of tipping point where enough people are motivated enough to improve things

    Oh and detoxing off of Reaganism as Boomers and Gen X become smaller parts of the work force

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  • KaputaKaputa Registered User regular
    edited May 13
    Here's a hypothesis that I'm thinking about but unsure of:

    The major established unions had become so assimilated into the capitalist structure/defanged/corrupted etc. that, in a perverse way, the degree to which they have declined is actually an enabling factor for a new labor movement, in that their absence provides room for something new to grow. They were unable and/or unwilling to adapt to the US's shift to a service economy, but their decaying mass had to wither away before something more applicable to our current political economy could arise.

    The fact that the major unions are not growing, and that these successes are predominantly achieved by new, independent unions, is part of the basis for this theory.

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  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    edited May 13
    Under employed college graduates are a big part of the wild cat unionization wave too

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  • RedTideRedTide Registered User regular
    Under employed college graduates are a big part of the wild cat unionization wave too

    Agreed and I was trying to say that without saying it because while college grads are likely to lean left I hate the idea that the "Intellectual betters" are somehow the saviors too and I don't want to remotely imply either

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  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    edited May 13
    RedTide wrote: »
    Under employed college graduates are a big part of the wild cat unionization wave too

    Agreed and I was trying to say that without saying it because while college grads are likely to lean left I hate the idea that the "Intellectual betters" are somehow the saviors too and I don't want to remotely imply either

    Yeah I dont think its a "college makes you a better person" deal or whatever, its just combine people who are already inclined to be left wing, fail to give them the future they were promised, and make sure they were more likely to be exposed to the historical tools available to address this failure. Labor organizers in the waiting.

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  • PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    RedTide wrote: »
    Under employed college graduates are a big part of the wild cat unionization wave too

    Agreed and I was trying to say that without saying it because while college grads are likely to lean left I hate the idea that the "Intellectual betters" are somehow the saviors too and I don't want to remotely imply either

    Yeah I dont think its a "college makes you a better person" deal or whatever, its just combine people who are already inclined to be left wing, fail to give them the future they were promised, and make sure they were more likely to be exposed to the historical tools available to address this failure. Labor organizers in the waiting.

    Agreed. College grad just correlates to younger and left leaning.

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  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    edited May 13
    Disaffected academics have been the driving force behind a lot of left wing/worker organization throughout history.

    Education gives you the context and language to talk about what every worker already knows anyway.

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  • LanzLanz Registered User regular
    Under employed college graduates are a big part of the wild cat unionization wave too

    Dynamite! It’s Dynamite!

  • KaputaKaputa Registered User regular
    edited May 14
    RedTide wrote: »
    Under employed college graduates are a big part of the wild cat unionization wave too

    Agreed and I was trying to say that without saying it because while college grads are likely to lean left I hate the idea that the "Intellectual betters" are somehow the saviors too and I don't want to remotely imply either

    Yeah I dont think its a "college makes you a better person" deal or whatever, its just combine people who are already inclined to be left wing, fail to give them the future they were promised, and make sure they were more likely to be exposed to the historical tools available to address this failure. Labor organizers in the waiting.
    This is pretty insightful and tracks well with my lived experience. I went to college for two years, decided programming was boring and instead learned philosophy and political theory, dropped acid a bunch, smoked too much weed and dropped out, and now I'm trying to organize a union.

    I remember sitting there in Java/object oriented programming class, totally ignoring the sleep inducing lecture because I was too busy reading wiki articles about the European colonization of Africa during class. I used to regret my choices. I no longer do.

    Edit - I know we have a lot of coders here and I'm not dissing their field, it is challenging and cool in its way, just not what I wanted to spend my life doing

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  • TefTef Registered User regular
    I’m a blue collar gold miner, but did go to university for a couple years.

    Having more sophisticated means of communication and such is not so much of a boon as one would think. It’s why folks like Kwame Ture (then Stokely Carmichael) was so big on ensuring they had the ‘brothers on the street’ (his words) on board, learning theory, and speaking for the movement.

    What IS an absolutely huge bonus, and we (global labour movement) should be grateful for it, is that the uni class are more likely to have a more secure and stable life (at least, relatively speaking) and are able to dedicate the physical and emotional time, effort, and space required to get shit off the ground.

    Big part of why I was never okay with my fellow blue worker compatriots who liked to shit on office workers. We need them and they need us. I’m management now, so the point is personally moot, but I think it’s an important understanding for any worker

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  • IncenjucarIncenjucar VChatter Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    Seniority also has to be balanced against individual merit or it conflicts with ambition and scares away aggressive self-educators. There are a lot of knowledge-centric jobs where someone can study their ass off and be dramatically more valuable in the workplace than someone who coasts once their foot is in the door.

    A lot of unions build this into their structure, like the apprentice, journeyman, etc. system, or certifications. You also need to have some flex in these systems for new areas of expertise, because sometimes something is being done for the first time ever.

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  • enc0reenc0re Registered User regular
    edited May 14
    I’m curious about a question that came up earlier. I’ve only ever helped organize a union with cards that came premade by an outside union. But I am very favorable to workers organizing their own, independent shops.

    So do you just make up your own cards (hopefully vetted by someone)? Or is there a prescribed template to follow?

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  • KaputaKaputa Registered User regular
    edited May 14
    Me: "Hey you guys hear that the Starbucks up in [town half an hour north of me] unionized? You guys should too!"

    Starbucks worker: "Wow really [that town]? No way!"

    Me: "Yeah, don't respond too positively if the manager's around tho."

    Worker: "Oh, uh, I think we're all set."

    Manager, now addressing me - "We don't allow solicitation in our stores!"

    lol.

    In retrospect I might not want to do that again as I wouldn't want to provoke a worker into outing themselves, but that was an amusing interaction.
    enc0re wrote: »
    I’m curious about a question that came up earlier. I’ve only ever organized a union with cards that came premade by an outside union. But I am very favorable to workers organizing their own, independent shops.

    So do you just make up your own cards (hopefully vetted by someone)? Or is there a prescribed template to follow?
    You can make your own cards, essentially it just has to say something along the lines of "I authorize Target Workers United to represent me in collective bargaining". Maybe I'm forgetting a minor requirement or two for it to be legit, but the NLRB rep I talked to made it sound like as long as you make it a clear statement of desire to be represented by the union in question then you're good to make your own. Googling "UAW card template" or something like that can give something to work off of, but it doesn't have to be formatted the exact same way or anything.

    union-authorization-card-sample-card.png

    I intend to basically copy this, obviously replacing the union's name with our own and removing the "or chartered local union" part since that doesn't apply to ours. I don't know if the "Would you participate in an organizing committee" part is legally required or not but I don't see any downside to including it.


    edit- sorry for initially sloppy post, it was before I had drank the alienated product of that guy's labor so I was a little foggy

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  • KaputaKaputa Registered User regular
    edited May 17
    Starbucks is at over 70 stores successfully unionized now. It's more than doubled over the past few weeks (the count was less than 30 in mid-April). Starbucks is going hard on pretty much every union busting technique short of physical violence, it seems, of both the legal and illegal varieties. My favorite so far is promising to give raises to everyone in stores that *haven't* unionized. Ironically, this means that Starbucks Workers United has already succeeded in raising the pay of all Starbucks employees, unionized or not (at least at corporate stores, dunno if Schultz's promise applies to franchises). Hopefully, the workers at those stores recognize that it is the union indirectly getting them a raise and not Schultz's generosity. So far the company's scummy reaction to this organization effort just seems to be pissing people off, I've seen no sign that it has weakened the movement's momentum, and I hope that stays true.

    Someone posted that the first Target store is holding a union vote, which is rad; what I did not know, is that they are unionizing under the IWW! Yes, that IWW. Pretty awesome, at least if the current IWW is ideologically oriented along the lines of the IWW of old.

    An Apple Store is holding its first union vote too, first in the US I believe.

    Also, if Axios is to be believed, Schultz was Hillary's top pick for prospective labor secretary back in 2016, which is fitting and darkly hilarious.

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  • Metzger MeisterMetzger Meister Registered User regular
    ONE BIG UNION

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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Axios is not to be believed.

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  • MillMill Registered User regular
    Well during my infusion, after a shit ton of channel flipping because basic cable is still full of mostly unwatchable shit. Settled on C-SPAN where the house was voting on the reauthorization of Workforce Innovation and Opportunity Act. Surprising no one, no actual republican voted in favor of it. The clown they had come up to talk about why she was opposed, used the horseshit about unions not representing workers and then got into some stupid ass spiel about the left, so I didn't finish listening to her bullshit, partly because my infusion had finished at that point. The GOP was also butthurt that all their bullshit amendments got voted down.

    So unless someone convinces two dumbasses to kill the filibuster, it probably doesn't get out of the senate. With unions coming back though, expect to see lots of horseshit where the right tries to make unions and workers two separate things.

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