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We are canceling the apocalypse! (Final Fantasy XIV)

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Posts

  • EvermournEvermourn Registered User regular
    If you had told me a week ago I'd be tempted to spend US$7 on a tea drinking emote I wouldn't have believed you. But it even works on mounts... I will be strong, its the slippery slope to more and more good stuff in the store when we pay box price + sub already. Or at least wait for a sale.

    Lucid_Seraph
  • SCREECH OF THE FARGSCREECH OF THE FARG #1 PARROTHEAD margaritavilleRegistered User regular
    LD50 wrote: »
    If they were using mods visibly on stream then those were not what I would call bad faith mass reports. They were being reported for something that is an actual TOS violation.

    cop brain shit

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    destroyah87Dhalphirph blakeLucid_SeraphAshtonDragon
  • CaedwyrCaedwyr Registered User regular
    edited May 2022
    There was one major addon element that significantly simplified at least one mechanic (showing visible debuff timers for all party members) that help with both execution and solving of the mechanic. There's other addons discussed in these threads and others that appear to be not uncommon that may or may not have been used by those attempting the clear and which would normally be classified as a trainer or disability type assist program that makes the execution easier.

    My static has people that use some mods, and while certain one are pretty harmless (a plugin that lets them save more than the limited number of fight markers), others make certain mechanics much easier (Cacbot callouts on P3S for rotating fire blasts vs center fire blast that alerts them before we see any tell in the fight).

    My preference is that SE implement some of the quality of life elements common to the mods and basic game fix effects (using XIVAlexander to fix some of the latency/netcode issues so where you live isn't as big of an effect) and either provide some more general guidelines on what is not okay and which they are going to come down hard on people. Suspensions caused by mass-reports because someone has a chat bubble mod installed is not a good look. Suspensions to people running around with mods that show invisible AoE effects or automatic callout alerts before any visual/audio tells, or other mods that allow faster than intended ability usage are things that I don't have an issue with.

    Graphical mods, are something I really don't care about unless they are the one showing AoE markers that the game hides. Feel free to have your Futa-catgirl riding a mini-Alexander. It's your game. I've avoided graphical mods mostly just because I'm the only one who can see those things, so unless it is something like a high-resolution mod I'm not interested and my potato can't run those ones anyways.

    Caedwyr on
  • RonaldoTheGypsyRonaldoTheGypsy Yes, yes Registered User regular
    *stares at fat cat scholar fairy mod and sweats*

    Just_Bri_Thanks
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited May 2022
    LD50 wrote: »
    If they were using mods visibly on stream then those were not what I would call bad faith mass reports.

    when thousands of people are doing something and a handful get banned for it from mass reporting, those are bad faith mass reports and a dogshit rules enforcement approach from the developer

    the end. there is no arguing against this.
    LD50 wrote: »
    OK but don't stream with visible addons?

    Either everyone who streams with addons should be banned or nobody should. That is a universal truth that applies to all forms of rules, regulations, and laws. If it can't be enforced evenly and consistently then it shouldn't exist.
    Caedwyr wrote: »
    others make certain mechanics much easier (Cacbot callouts on P3S for rotating fire blasts vs center fire blast that alerts them before we see any tell in the fight).

    I agree with you in principle but you picked a really silly example because it is both not "much easier" nor is it even significantly earlier. It's about half a GCD early, and knowing doesn't really even make the mechanic easier.

    The go-to example for Cactbot going too far is Fate Calibration Alpha and Beta on TEA, but since that particular mechanic, the only example I can think of, of Cactbot providing information before a human could know it, is that P3S mechanic, and that's simultaneously such a trivial mechanic and also so minor an edge that it barely even bears mentioning.

    Dhalphir on
  • CaedwyrCaedwyr Registered User regular
    edited May 2022
    Eh, there's a couple people in my static who visibly benefit from that extra GCD, especially when learning the fight. That said, I generally agree with you that the example isn't super egregious and that the Fate Calibration Alpha/Beta is a much better example of going too far.

    Caedwyr on
  • SabreMauSabreMau ネトゲしよう 판다리아Registered User regular
    They don't have the resources to sit and watch every Twitch or Youtube stream waiting to see just in case someone loads up some mods. However, if they get a report and look into it and confirm the allegation, they can and should take action. No need to permaban on the first offense, just slap on the wrist, tell them not to do it, short suspension, and they can restore order. My complaint is just that, apparently, for years they let it run rampant in the open regardless of who or how many reported it. There's no shortage of evidence in VODs. That sort of thing breeds a culture of, "Don't worry, just load up whatever plugins you want, SE's not going to notice or even care if they do notice". If they'd been taking action consistently, maybe it wouldn't have gotten so blatant.

    LD50
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    I can almost guarantee that thousands of people would have been reporting Limit Max daily over his plugin usage.

  • I needed anime to post.I needed anime to post. boom Registered User regular
    “Second class citizens” lmao

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    Kwoaruph blakehush
  • BahamutZEROBahamutZERO Registered User regular
    Btw @Javen you can check framerate, it's listed at the top of the system configuration window, for some reason. Obscure place for it, but it's there.

    BahamutZERO.gif
  • SCREECH OF THE FARGSCREECH OF THE FARG #1 PARROTHEAD margaritavilleRegistered User regular
    edited May 2022
    they should just let you do and stream whatever. mods are cool. feels like the vast majority of this is people who dont do content getting mad at how people are doing content

    SCREECH OF THE FARG on
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  • SCREECH OF THE FARGSCREECH OF THE FARG #1 PARROTHEAD margaritavilleRegistered User regular
    there's a mod that "gives nald'thal one or two penises". also you can get a jukebox and listen to whatever song you want whenever. this sorta stuff should be in the game

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    Crippl3Lucid_Seraph
  • GrundlestiltskinGrundlestiltskin Behind you!Registered User regular
    edited May 2022
    they should just let you do and stream whatever. mods are cool. feels like the vast majority of this is people who dont do content getting mad at how people are doing content

    I think (speculating) it's more a slippery slope concern that if mods make fights significantly easier (or trivialize certain mechanics), then to make challenging encounters you likely need to build them with those mods in mind; this effectively "punishes" players who either don't want to use them or otherwise can't (console players).

    Grundlestiltskin on
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    KanaRenzoQanamil
  • SCREECH OF THE FARGSCREECH OF THE FARG #1 PARROTHEAD margaritavilleRegistered User regular
    eh just break the mods or throw up your hands. it's more important that I continue to have fun and useful plugins than preventing someone from clearing a fight slightly easier

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  • KanaKana Registered User regular
    Which isn't even a theoretical scenario, that's exactly how it is with WoW raiding. The high end world first raiding teams had team members whose whole job was designing UIs for specific fights. FF14 is smart to limit that stuff, and it lets them design fights around the tools you have.

    A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
    LD50Caedwyr
  • admanbadmanb unionize your workplace Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    they should just let you do and stream whatever. mods are cool. feels like the vast majority of this is people who dont do content getting mad at how people are doing content

    I think (speculating) it's more a slippery slope concern that if mods make fights significantly easier (or trivialize certain mechanics), then to make challenging encounters you likely need to build them with those mods in mind; this effectively "punishes" players who either don't want to use them or otherwise can't (console players).

    yeah, but people aren't getting reported for running cactbot or anything that has a more significant effect on fight difficulty than DelvUI actually showing buffs and debuffs in a way that isn't dogshit. The mass reporting is against people just using visual or QOL addons.

    "slippery slope" is as meaningless an argument as it is for recreational drugs. Material UI isn't going to lead people into cactbot and if it does they can just ban them for using cactbot! Alternately, they don't even have to do that -- they could just stick to the same policy they talk about for damage meters and only ban if it's used to harass or exclude players. It truly does not matter if some random static kills P4S 20% faster than they would've without automatic callouts.

    destroyah87
  • reVersereVerse Attack and Dethrone God Registered User regular
    edited May 2022
    They could create various categories for different types of clears, like they do in the speedrun community. Plugin enabled, discord voice chat, text only no tools, that sort of stuff.

    In game, it wouldn't really matter because once you clear you get the achievement and the weapon same as anyone else, but it could give them a reason to relax on those things a bit.

    How and where and why this information would be displayed is a big ??? from me, though. And who would even keep and check that stuff.

    reVerse on
  • SCREECH OF THE FARGSCREECH OF THE FARG #1 PARROTHEAD margaritavilleRegistered User regular
    Kana wrote: »
    Which isn't even a theoretical scenario, that's exactly how it is with WoW raiding. The high end world first raiding teams had team members whose whole job was designing UIs for specific fights. FF14 is smart to limit that stuff, and it lets them design fights around the tools you have.
    Kana wrote: »
    Which isn't even a theoretical scenario, that's exactly how it is with WoW raiding. The high end world first raiding teams had team members whose whole job was designing UIs for specific fights. FF14 is smart to limit that stuff, and it lets them design fights around the tools you have.

    guess what high end world first ffxiv raiding teams have

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    DhalphirDonnicton
  • I needed anime to post.I needed anime to post. boom Registered User regular
    frankly i feel like a lot of debate over should addons be allowed should they not is missing the forest for the trees. i think it's an objectively bad thing when a game's TOS enforcement is primarily decided via mass reports of organized actors. it would be better if they just took a hardline stance and said "we're doin' it to anyone who's done an addon for this raid" even though that would be way more people banned!

    ffxiv's addon policy has existed in abstractions and winkwinknudgenudges and gentlemen's agreements for an embarrassingly long time

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    destroyah87ph blakeLucid_SeraphadmanbCaedwyrSkeithEchoBloodsheed
  • SCREECH OF THE FARGSCREECH OF THE FARG #1 PARROTHEAD margaritavilleRegistered User regular
    edited May 2022
    I agree but the opposite, just let it ride baby

    i mean look at this. this stuff is important. this stuff needs to exist.


    unknown.png

    SCREECH OF THE FARG on
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    Crippl3Lucid_Seraph
  • McMoogleMcMoogle Registered User regular
    edited May 2022
    There isn't a mod in existence/imagination that can make zenos a compelling antagonist.

    McMoogle on
    steam_sig.png
    Lucid_SeraphEvermournBloodsheed
  • RenzoRenzo Registered User regular
    Zenos is awesome, don't do him dirty with a mod like that.

  • CaedwyrCaedwyr Registered User regular
    they should just let you do and stream whatever. mods are cool. feels like the vast majority of this is people who dont do content getting mad at how people are doing content

    If they go down this route then what ends up happening is the game ends up super easy, or the fights end up in a situation where mods are needed. It also means that people playing on console end up excluded from content. It's a short-sighted approach that ends up with some negative consequences for everyone down the road.

    KanaEvermournLD50Bloodsheed
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    WoW fights don't require mods, the raiding community does because WoW raiding requires large numbers of people and highly structured environments which encourages strict rules to adhere to or get out "use these mods to trial in our guild".

    You can clear anything in WoW using none of the mods.

    FFXIV has a much smaller raiding requirement and raid groups are much more personal. Groups don't kick someone for not using cactbot any more than they kick someone for using it.

    And cactbot is far less capable then even the most mundane WoW raiding mods, so the comparison isn't even apt as it stands.

  • Lucid_SeraphLucid_Seraph TealDeer MarylandRegistered User regular
    edited May 2022
    Listen

    I just want a mod that fixes the stupid belly hole on the level 50 female DRG armor.

    that's it!

    *edit* honestly I think ESO's approach to mods is THE healthiest I've seen in games but like... that's a different animal with a community that would have basically rioted if some form of modding hadn't been allowed

    Lucid_Seraph on
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  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited May 2022
    Listen

    I just want a mod that fixes the stupid belly hole on the level 50 female DRG armor.

    that's it!

    *edit* honestly I think ESO's approach to mods is THE healthiest I've seen in games but like... that's a different animal with a community that would have basically rioted if some form of modding hadn't been allowed

    @Lucid_Seraph

    https://www.xivmodarchive.com/mod/protective_drachen_armor

    edit: naturally there are also mods to significantly..er...widen..the gap too, for those who want that.

    Dhalphir on
    Lucid_Seraph
  • Lucid_SeraphLucid_Seraph TealDeer MarylandRegistered User regular
    edited May 2022
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    Listen

    I just want a mod that fixes the stupid belly hole on the level 50 female DRG armor.

    that's it!

    *edit* honestly I think ESO's approach to mods is THE healthiest I've seen in games but like... that's a different animal with a community that would have basically rioted if some form of modding hadn't been allowed

    @Lucid_Seraph

    https://www.xivmodarchive.com/mod/protective_drachen_armor

    edit: naturally there are also mods to significantly..er...widen..the gap too, for those who want that.

    oh no I have seen the ones that make it more, uh, yes

    I actually appreciate the one that made the male version stripperiffic. because I'm here for equal opportunity stripperiffic outfits. it just pisses me off when it's one or the other, y'know?

    Lucid_Seraph on
    See You Space Cowboy: a ttrpg about sad space bounty hunters
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  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    An FF14 static is all about making friends. Real connections. Enjoying our time spent together. Enjoying progging new raids, playing casual new games outside of raids and sharing jokes about which tower people will go in during DSR Thordan Phase. We have each other's back, and that's the most important thing.

    Or so I thought.

    Things changed when the Yoshi-P secret plugin task force attacked. Thanks to Yoshi-P and his holy crusade against the use of third-party illegal plugins, I now know the truth about my static members. They were never my friends at all. I now know they were using plugins to find out just exactly how long was left on my radiant shield buff. Just how long was left on that card the AST just gave me. They were even looking at my damage numbers. Such unforgiveable acts cannot go unanswered. Thanks to Yoshi-P I now know that an FF14 raiding static is about making friends, friends who don't use plugins. Friends who don't use ACT. Friends who care. Consider this my resignation.

  • SCREECH OF THE FARGSCREECH OF THE FARG #1 PARROTHEAD margaritavilleRegistered User regular
    Caedwyr wrote: »
    they should just let you do and stream whatever. mods are cool. feels like the vast majority of this is people who dont do content getting mad at how people are doing content

    If they go down this route then what ends up happening is the game ends up super easy, or the fights end up in a situation where mods are needed. It also means that people playing on console end up excluded from content. It's a short-sighted approach that ends up with some negative consequences for everyone down the road.

    they've been going down this route since the game released, this isn't a theoretical situation. you are seeing fight design influenced by almost a decade of unchecked plugin development. given that, do you feel that your prophecy is reflected in the reality of the game?

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  • TcheldorTcheldor Registered User regular
    Caedwyr wrote: »
    they should just let you do and stream whatever. mods are cool. feels like the vast majority of this is people who dont do content getting mad at how people are doing content

    If they go down this route then what ends up happening is the game ends up super easy, or the fights end up in a situation where mods are needed. It also means that people playing on console end up excluded from content. It's a short-sighted approach that ends up with some negative consequences for everyone down the road.

    they've been going down this route since the game released, this isn't a theoretical situation. you are seeing fight design influenced by almost a decade of unchecked plugin development. given that, do you feel that your prophecy is reflected in the reality of the game?

    I don't feel like the fights are designed around or influenced by plugin development at all...

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  • SCREECH OF THE FARGSCREECH OF THE FARG #1 PARROTHEAD margaritavilleRegistered User regular
    I agree, the game has had unchecked plugin development and the fights are not super easy, nor are they required to clear fights, and console players are not excluded from content. The theoretical situation posed is reality

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    Dhalphir
  • AshtonDragonAshtonDragon AKA The Nix Registered User regular
    My impression of SE is that they are trying to discourage addons and third party stuff so that it doesn't get too rampant or game breaking, but they don't want to get too heavy handed about it. They clearly don't want to go around banning everyone willy nilly, but they do want to keep up the impression that addons shouldn't be used. Especially so recently after their recent post about it, I don't actually blame them for handing out the temporary bans that they did when the reports came in. I wouldn't fault anyone here for criticizing their approach, though.

    On the other hand, I do blame anyone who's reporting people to SE. That kind of shit is incredibly childish. I really hope no one here is defending that kind of cop bullshit. It'd be one thing if people were using third party tools to bully others, like shitting on people who parse badly, but reporting someone for UI tweeks (or even for something that gives them some small advantage, as long as they're not hurting anyone or doing it in PVP) is a joke.

  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    Tcheldor wrote: »
    Caedwyr wrote: »
    they should just let you do and stream whatever. mods are cool. feels like the vast majority of this is people who dont do content getting mad at how people are doing content

    If they go down this route then what ends up happening is the game ends up super easy, or the fights end up in a situation where mods are needed. It also means that people playing on console end up excluded from content. It's a short-sighted approach that ends up with some negative consequences for everyone down the road.

    they've been going down this route since the game released, this isn't a theoretical situation. you are seeing fight design influenced by almost a decade of unchecked plugin development. given that, do you feel that your prophecy is reflected in the reality of the game?

    I don't feel like the fights are designed around or influenced by plugin development at all...

    Correct. They are not. Despite rampant plugin use.

  • CaedwyrCaedwyr Registered User regular
    edited May 2022
    Caedwyr wrote: »
    they should just let you do and stream whatever. mods are cool. feels like the vast majority of this is people who dont do content getting mad at how people are doing content

    If they go down this route then what ends up happening is the game ends up super easy, or the fights end up in a situation where mods are needed. It also means that people playing on console end up excluded from content. It's a short-sighted approach that ends up with some negative consequences for everyone down the road.

    they've been going down this route since the game released, this isn't a theoretical situation. you are seeing fight design influenced by almost a decade of unchecked plugin development. given that, do you feel that your prophecy is reflected in the reality of the game?

    I am noticing that the people using plug-ins seem to be having a substantially easier time picking up fights this tier and there is starting to become more social pressures to use the addons or fall behind. Up until the recent letter and crackdown, the general mood was shifting from don't ask don't tell to open discussion and advocation for addon use.

    Caedwyr on
  • MaratastikMaratastik Just call me Mara, please! Registered User regular
    edited May 2022
    Bwaaaaah? I've been raiding this entire tier and haven't seen anything like that at all. I've never used any kind of overlay or call out bot. I just have ACT running in the background so I can check my dps afterwards. But I've never felt like I've been at a disadvantage. I still progressed through the raid tier as fast as I always do. Nor have I felt any pressure to use that stuff. If anything, I do better than my co-tank who does use cactbot. He always brings up that my callouts come earlier than his cactbot. Because I actually know the rhythm of the fight and when stuff is coming up. The idea that I'm holding a group back by not using it is laughable.

    If anything I think using call out bots makes you a weaker player, not a better one. UI overlays that adjust the size and position of timers? Who in the fuck even gives a shit? Having it doesn't make you perform any better, it's literally just a QoL thing. I don't use any because I've never personally felt the need to, but the idea that some of the UI changes I've seen streamers using allows them to perform better than me is laughable.

    Now plugins that actually show AOE telegraphs that don't appear in game. Those can fuck all the way off. That is actual cheating.



    Maratastik on
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  • admanbadmanb unionize your workplace Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited May 2022
    The only credit I'd give addons is that they smooth things out, not actually make you better. Human callouts will usually be better timed and better tuned to what your group needs to know than Cactbot, but Cactbot is never going to forget whether you're on the part of the fight where mech 1 is followed by mech 2a or by mech 2b. If that saves you 1/10 or 1/20 pulls that's 5-10% faster prog.

    UI mods are pretty similar tbh. I went into my 3rd or 4th P1S reclear on a Tuesday and forgot that DelvUI was disabled, so the only way I could see my Monk buffs/debuffs was by looking at the top right corner of my screen. My DPS... didn't drop very much, because I knew the fight and my class well enough that I could afford to shift focus, but that was on a fight I knew really well on a class I'm pretty good with. It makes complete sense to be that ex-WoW players who came in to blind-prog Eden with maybe eight hours of target dummy practice as their total experience in the game would gravitate towards a high-info UI. Just like it makes sense that Sfia plays like a god even though he can't see his cooldowns without dropping his eyes all the way to the bottom of his screen.

    admanb on
  • BahamutZEROBahamutZERO Registered User regular
    edited May 2022
    putting your buff bar near the middle of the screen or wherever you put your eyes most of the time is important on monk yeah
    on several jobs, but on monk in particular, it's definitely the most "buffs matter" rotation.

    BahamutZERO on
    BahamutZERO.gif
    KanaAldoEcho
  • admanbadmanb unionize your workplace Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    yeah. A fair number of classes track debuffs and I still like Delv because it lets you size the icons instead of the awful default ones, but the default debuff bar was completely fine for Bard DOTs.

  • CaedwyrCaedwyr Registered User regular
    This is going to vary from group to group. In my static, one player improved immensely on their learning speed on a couple of fights (and we later discovered they had started using cacbot) and another person stopped being clipped by aoes and was very vocal in encouraging everyone to use all the addons they could find (EX3 was where we had a lot of discussions around this). My static may be an outlier, but having been down this road before in other MMOs I can see the exact same patterns and conversations starting up and know where it ends up every single time if left unchecked.

    As for has it affected the encounter design? Probably not yet. The developers have not indicated they are taking it into account in their encounter design, but there are two real outcomes to this situation as time goes on.
    1. Certain styles of encounters become very easy for many of the players because of widespread uptake of addons that can trivialize/simplify these types of encounters, and there becomes a stronger and stronger social pressure over time to use the addons. Devs may or may not react to community comments about fights being too easy by reducing how often they design these types of encounters.
    2. Developers start taking the addons into account in encounter design.

    That all said, I agree that the devs need to seriously look at stealing a whole host of things from addons, because there are a lot of ways they could improve their UI and QoL for players. Trying to put the genie back in the bottle on this one, would in my mind, show the developers as out of touch with a sizeable portion of their playerbase. Some addons have 1M+ downloads.

    My preference is that firmer lines are written down about the types of addons that are verboten and the developers incorporate many of the most in-demand addon features into the base UI. Certain areas of the game, like housing design interface are quite player unfriendly compared to what can be done in an addon and has been done in other games like Wildstar.

    Qanamil
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