As was foretold, we've added advertisements to the forums! If you have questions, or if you encounter any bugs, please visit this thread: https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/240191/forum-advertisement-faq-and-reports-thread/

Star Citizen | SQ42 | 12 Years. $500 Million. 0 Games.

191012141518

Posts

  • Blah64Blah64 Registered User regular
    I don't mind these sorts of articles. It's been the case that 'Any news is good news' for Star Citizen. Every time one of these negative articles about Star Citizen comes out in the large news sites, it brings in a new wave of players that just heard about it for the first time.

  • ironzergironzerg Registered User regular
    And these new players pay to play, jump in and wonder what all the fuss is about because 12 years later Star Citizen is a pretty crappy game.

    When you strip away all the aspirational fantasies and look at it objectively as it is right now, it's a hot mess of a game. If Star Citizen were to come out of the blue and "launch" in early access on Steam, I'm sure the reviews would quickly dip to negative to mostly negative, probably worse if they were to introduce the same "pay to support" pricing model they have right now.

    And before you ignore what I've said and launch into some pseudo-ad hominem or emotional debate about how mean I am, I've put about $1000 and have been following this for over a decade. I've played on and off multiple times during that period. I consider my opinion about as objective as you can get here.

    Star Citizen just kinda sucks.

  • Stabbity StyleStabbity Style He/Him | Warning: Mothership Reporting Kennewick, WARegistered User regular
    Lucascraft wrote: »
    So a couple insights and opinions here…

    1) CIG raising the price on the all-ships bundle to include all the new ships that have been released over the past year or so is not really news.

    2) Nearly every gaming news outlet and even a few mainstream news outlets have covered this story. Why? Because it’s easy clickbait, and drama drives marketing. Every year news outlets like to shake the hornets nest on Star Citizen, because it’s basically free views and free engagement on their sites and comments sections. But it’s also incredibly lazy journalism.

    3) The thing that annoys me about all this is how sensationalistic this all is, and how clearly biased it is. They are intentionally trying to make people mad by only reporting half the story.

    4) The full story is that yes, CIG is selling a $48,000 bundle, but every ship that currently exists in the game can be purchased for in-game credits just by playing the game. And it’s not even that hard to save up the game currency to build a big personal fleet. That’s the part that never gets reported, or gets buried in a footnote at the end of a sensationalist article.

    5) Nobody is being forced to buy this bundle to play or enjoy the game. You can spend $40 during a sale to buy a starter pack and earn and unlock everything currently available in the game without ever spending another cent beyond that. But news headlines are conveniently ignoring that fact because that is mundane and doesn’t drive clicks.

    Literally any game offering a $48,000 anything package that's not giving you equity in the game deserves to be relentlessly mocked literally any time there's something new to be said about it. I think maybe you've gone nose-blind to how conceptually fucked that is.

    Stabbity_Style.png
  • GnizmoGnizmo Registered User regular
    Lucascraft wrote: »
    So a couple insights and opinions here…

    1) CIG raising the price on the all-ships bundle to include all the new ships that have been released over the past year or so is not really news.

    2) Nearly every gaming news outlet and even a few mainstream news outlets have covered this story. Why? Because it’s easy clickbait, and drama drives marketing. Every year news outlets like to shake the hornets nest on Star Citizen, because it’s basically free views and free engagement on their sites and comments sections. But it’s also incredibly lazy journalism.

    3) The thing that annoys me about all this is how sensationalistic this all is, and how clearly biased it is. They are intentionally trying to make people mad by only reporting half the story.

    4) The full story is that yes, CIG is selling a $48,000 bundle, but every ship that currently exists in the game can be purchased for in-game credits just by playing the game. And it’s not even that hard to save up the game currency to build a big personal fleet. That’s the part that never gets reported, or gets buried in a footnote at the end of a sensationalist article.

    5) Nobody is being forced to buy this bundle to play or enjoy the game. You can spend $40 during a sale to buy a starter pack and earn and unlock everything currently available in the game without ever spending another cent beyond that. But news headlines are conveniently ignoring that fact because that is mundane and doesn’t drive clicks.

    Literally any game offering a $48,000 anything package that's not giving you equity in the game deserves to be relentlessly mocked literally any time there's something new to be said about it. I think maybe you've gone nose-blind to how conceptually fucked that is.

    It seems infinitely less predatory and more above board than literally any of the gacha games that exist.

  • Stabbity StyleStabbity Style He/Him | Warning: Mothership Reporting Kennewick, WARegistered User regular
    Gnizmo wrote: »
    Lucascraft wrote: »
    So a couple insights and opinions here…

    1) CIG raising the price on the all-ships bundle to include all the new ships that have been released over the past year or so is not really news.

    2) Nearly every gaming news outlet and even a few mainstream news outlets have covered this story. Why? Because it’s easy clickbait, and drama drives marketing. Every year news outlets like to shake the hornets nest on Star Citizen, because it’s basically free views and free engagement on their sites and comments sections. But it’s also incredibly lazy journalism.

    3) The thing that annoys me about all this is how sensationalistic this all is, and how clearly biased it is. They are intentionally trying to make people mad by only reporting half the story.

    4) The full story is that yes, CIG is selling a $48,000 bundle, but every ship that currently exists in the game can be purchased for in-game credits just by playing the game. And it’s not even that hard to save up the game currency to build a big personal fleet. That’s the part that never gets reported, or gets buried in a footnote at the end of a sensationalist article.

    5) Nobody is being forced to buy this bundle to play or enjoy the game. You can spend $40 during a sale to buy a starter pack and earn and unlock everything currently available in the game without ever spending another cent beyond that. But news headlines are conveniently ignoring that fact because that is mundane and doesn’t drive clicks.

    Literally any game offering a $48,000 anything package that's not giving you equity in the game deserves to be relentlessly mocked literally any time there's something new to be said about it. I think maybe you've gone nose-blind to how conceptually fucked that is.

    It seems infinitely less predatory and more above board than literally any of the gacha games that exist.

    Gacha games should also be ridiculed. Also, whataboutism.

    Stabbity_Style.png
  • LucascraftLucascraft Registered User regular
    To be clear, I don't mind the mocking of the 48k bundle in and of itself. I just am tired of the media bias, shit-stirring, and unbalanced reporting.

    Yes, it's very stupid that they're selling a bundle for 48k. It's utterly ridiculous. Half the ships in that bundle do not even exist in the game and are just "concepts" that people are paying money for. And that's stupid!

    But again... my point is that isn't the complete story. Any of the ships that do exist in game can be earned with in-game currency for easy-to-moderate amounts of effort. I just wish that the journalism was a bit more honest. Yeah, it's a catchy headline, but it's not the full truth of the situation. CIG aren't twisting anyone's arm to pay those prices, and you can earn ships in-game without having to pay more than the entry box price of the game, just like any other video game.

  • FiatilFiatil Registered User regular
    edited January 6
    Nothing in the headline suggests that you're being forced to do it.

    The article is 100% accurate, not sensationalist at all, and videogame articles do not require a paragraph explaining to the audience that they're not literally being forced at gunpoint to spend $48K.

    Think how silly it would be if every article discussing the price of a thing required such a disclaimer.

    Yes we understand you can earn those ships in game. Time has value -- it's the most valuable resource any of us have I think! Please stop pretending that the advantage gained from those ships is negligible.

    There are posts in this thread from people who like the game explaining that a great way to earn money early is by running errands for the whales who bought these ships. There's literally a class of capitalist overlords in the game that you can have the privilege of working for because they earn more money in real life than you and spent it on virtual spaceships.

    This is clearly the part everyone is reacting to, and the part that is NOT "just like any other game". The other stuff just feels like long form deflection from that point.

    Fiatil on
    steam_sig.png
  • NEO|PhyteNEO|Phyte They follow the stars, bound together. Strands in a braid till the end.Registered User regular
    Well I guess I'll just figure out how to run all three mining lasers on my MOLE by myself then because apparently it's ridiculous that I can just have other players hop in my ship that is designed to be crewed by multiple people to help me run it. Good talk.

    It was that somehow, from within the derelict-horror, they had learned a way to see inside an ugly, broken thing... And take away its pain.
    Warframe/Steam: NFyt
  • FiatilFiatil Registered User regular
    edited January 6
    NEO|Phyte wrote: »
    Well I guess I'll just figure out how to run all three mining lasers on my MOLE by myself then because apparently it's ridiculous that I can just have other players hop in my ship that is designed to be crewed by multiple people to help me run it. Good talk.

    It is ridiculous if you bought that ship for real money, yes.

    If you did not buy that ship for real money, and everyone were on an equal playing field where you earn ships by "being good at the game and/or playing it", then there is nothing wrong with that.

    It's a pretty clear distinction that I think you already know exists, that I emphasized very clearly in the post you're responding to, that I'm not sure why you would ignore as it results in a rebuttal that doesn't really have anything to do with the post you're responding to.

    No one here has expressed the slightest reservation at the concept of "spaceships in videogames" or "multicrew spaceships in videogames", and acting like that is the point of contention is odd.

    Fiatil on
    steam_sig.png
  • NEO|PhyteNEO|Phyte They follow the stars, bound together. Strands in a braid till the end.Registered User regular
    Mostly I think the issue here for me specifically is I do not conceptually grasp getting this level of upset about spending real money for internet spaceships. Is it dumb? Yeah. Is it unethical? Obviously, because it is a capitalistic indulgence, but I suspect most people complaining about it aren't pulling from that particular well of ethics. Being straightforward about what you get (in theory, I dunno if any ships have had notable reworks between concept and flyable) puts it above gachas at least. Is it going to create a permanent underclass of players that didn't spend lots of money on ships? I'm not sure how it could, unless the full High Fidelity Economy we will presumably get somehow allows the whales to manipulate markets such that it is impossible to get fancier ships than the little stuff.

    Unless I'm just really bad at reading, which I'm not gonna discount the possibility on, there doesn't seem to be any specific thing people are upset at beyond the fact that the option to buy stuff at increasingly absurd prices is there, and all I can really come up with for that is "welcome to capitalism." It's kickstarter backer tiers gone horribly right and they decided to keep rolling with it because it's printing them money.

    It was that somehow, from within the derelict-horror, they had learned a way to see inside an ugly, broken thing... And take away its pain.
    Warframe/Steam: NFyt
  • GnizmoGnizmo Registered User regular
    Gnizmo wrote: »
    Lucascraft wrote: »
    So a couple insights and opinions here…

    1) CIG raising the price on the all-ships bundle to include all the new ships that have been released over the past year or so is not really news.

    2) Nearly every gaming news outlet and even a few mainstream news outlets have covered this story. Why? Because it’s easy clickbait, and drama drives marketing. Every year news outlets like to shake the hornets nest on Star Citizen, because it’s basically free views and free engagement on their sites and comments sections. But it’s also incredibly lazy journalism.

    3) The thing that annoys me about all this is how sensationalistic this all is, and how clearly biased it is. They are intentionally trying to make people mad by only reporting half the story.

    4) The full story is that yes, CIG is selling a $48,000 bundle, but every ship that currently exists in the game can be purchased for in-game credits just by playing the game. And it’s not even that hard to save up the game currency to build a big personal fleet. That’s the part that never gets reported, or gets buried in a footnote at the end of a sensationalist article.

    5) Nobody is being forced to buy this bundle to play or enjoy the game. You can spend $40 during a sale to buy a starter pack and earn and unlock everything currently available in the game without ever spending another cent beyond that. But news headlines are conveniently ignoring that fact because that is mundane and doesn’t drive clicks.

    Literally any game offering a $48,000 anything package that's not giving you equity in the game deserves to be relentlessly mocked literally any time there's something new to be said about it. I think maybe you've gone nose-blind to how conceptually fucked that is.

    It seems infinitely less predatory and more above board than literally any of the gacha games that exist.

    Gacha games should also be ridiculed. Also, whataboutism.

    Less whataboutism and more looking at the models for funding games that are constantly in development. We are well past the point where dropping too much money for no reasons in those games can be stopped as a model. At least this one is less predatory.

  • StericaSterica Yes Registered User, Moderator mod
    The game has been in development for over a decade and is still in alpha. It’s continued existence is predatory, and the people rushing to its defense are the prey.

    YL9WnCY.png
  • The WolfmanThe Wolfman Registered User regular
    This short really put the whole thing with Star Citizen into perspective for me.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUyKe3Yk2QE

    Star Citizen is a game in alpha, being pitched as a storefront. And the only thing they seem to expand is the storefront.

    "The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
  • NEO|PhyteNEO|Phyte They follow the stars, bound together. Strands in a braid till the end.Registered User regular
    Sterica wrote: »
    The game has been in development for over a decade and is still in alpha. It’s continued existence is predatory, and the people rushing to its defense are the prey.

    So are you on team "it was a money extraction scheme from the start", or do you feel that the devs are in over their heads and the game needs a mercy killing?

    It was that somehow, from within the derelict-horror, they had learned a way to see inside an ugly, broken thing... And take away its pain.
    Warframe/Steam: NFyt
  • EchoEcho ski-bap ba-dapModerator mod
    Pardon if I'm enjoying myself in the wrong way, but this is pretty funny. He took over a bounty target NPC ship, and the NPC turret gunners have infinite ammo on ballistic weapons.

    The NPC turret gunners are the first iteration of the coming AI blades you can install on your own ships to fire ze turrets. Presumably without infinite bullets.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRNq5s0Igos

  • ZavianZavian universal peace sounds better than forever war Registered User regular
    i kind of feel like 'how dare people spend thousands of dollars on something they enjoy' can be used against any hobby

    like, you never 'have' to spend thousands of dollars on any given hobby really, but as long as it's being targeted towards grown adults making their own financial decisions I really don't see the problem

  • SiliconStewSiliconStew Registered User regular
    NEO|Phyte wrote: »
    Sterica wrote: »
    The game has been in development for over a decade and is still in alpha. It’s continued existence is predatory, and the people rushing to its defense are the prey.

    So are you on team "it was a money extraction scheme from the start", or do you feel that the devs are in over their heads and the game needs a mercy killing?

    I'm on team Chris Roberts is the same man who never says no to the good idea fairies until upper management fires him that he's always been. Except now there's no upper management.

    Just remember that half the people you meet are below average intelligence.
  • EchoEcho ski-bap ba-dapModerator mod
    I'm on team Chris Roberts is the same man who never says no to the good idea fairies until upper management fires him that he's always been. Except now there's no upper management.

    Gotta admire the scope though. If they can pull off the server meshing (it's in (very) small-scale testing now), they've done something nobody else has on that scale.

  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    Server meshing would be huge, and hopefully the manage to get it working since that'd be huge for all sorts of games. The big worry for me is that they're putting all this effort into developing a game that has full open PVP as a core element. Open PVP is one of those things that game designers think sounds like fun and that they can implement with 'real consequences' and all that, but there's a lot of dead games out there where it didn't work out.

    Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
  • EchoEcho ski-bap ba-dapModerator mod
    Yeah, right now there's just one system with four planets and a dozen moons, and with 100-ish players per server the PVP hotspots can get crowded.

    I've played for two months now though, and I have had one (1) hostile encounter with another player. I was out mining, and someone did a missile lock on me and fired one single missile that I dodged, but did nothing else before I had the time to casually stroll out of there.

    When Pyro (the next system) is released, I think a lot of PVP is going to move there.

  • NEO|PhyteNEO|Phyte They follow the stars, bound together. Strands in a braid till the end.Registered User regular
    NEO|Phyte wrote: »
    Sterica wrote: »
    The game has been in development for over a decade and is still in alpha. It’s continued existence is predatory, and the people rushing to its defense are the prey.

    So are you on team "it was a money extraction scheme from the start", or do you feel that the devs are in over their heads and the game needs a mercy killing?

    I'm on team Chris Roberts is the same man who never says no to the good idea fairies until upper management fires him that he's always been. Except now there's no upper management.
    Echo wrote: »
    I'm on team Chris Roberts is the same man who never says no to the good idea fairies until upper management fires him that he's always been. Except now there's no upper management.

    Gotta admire the scope though. If they can pull off the server meshing (it's in (very) small-scale testing now), they've done something nobody else has on that scale.

    This right here pretty well encapsulates where I sit on the whole thing. CR is an overambitious fool chasing the dream game he's always wanted, and being the man at the top instead of just part of the devteam means he might actually get it this time. I definitely have some concerns regarding how much of his Vision is compatible with fun gameplay, but that's more a problem for if/when they get things closer to a finished state. Just a matter of waiting to see where things end up at this point. If the endeavor ends up never reaching to where it promised and dies out, it can join Eternal Crusade in the list of games I put more money than was sensible in.

    It was that somehow, from within the derelict-horror, they had learned a way to see inside an ugly, broken thing... And take away its pain.
    Warframe/Steam: NFyt
  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    Echo wrote: »
    Yeah, right now there's just one system with four planets and a dozen moons, and with 100-ish players per server the PVP hotspots can get crowded.

    I've played for two months now though, and I have had one (1) hostile encounter with another player. I was out mining, and someone did a missile lock on me and fired one single missile that I dodged, but did nothing else before I had the time to casually stroll out of there.

    When Pyro (the next system) is released, I think a lot of PVP is going to move there.

    The playing experience is going to be all over the place for the next whatever time period as they roll out additional systems that will lower the player density and then bust out the server meshing which will spike it way up.

    I'm expecting that server meshing is going to lead to a hot mess of unfun for a while due to the increase in the number of targets and the people interested in targeting them. I have no idea if their various accountability mechanisms will hold up. Probably not, but maybe this time it'll all work out.

    Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
  • LucascraftLucascraft Registered User regular
    It's going to happen in phases, like any other PVP game.

    First they'll add the AI response behavior and beef up landing zone security. Then players will find all the exploits and "dead zones" on the map where the AI can't get to, and CIG will fix those. And then after that it will just become a game of cat and mouse, where a new exploit or trick will be found, and CIG will have to counter that as well.

    If you look at the star map on the CIG website, the Terra star system is only one jump away from Stanton. It is supposed to be a fully high security zone with a strong military and law enforcement presence. Hopefully they are planning on building out the Terra system sooner rather than later, because they need to get a 100% safe zone into the game for the people that are completely adverse to PVP in any shape or form.

    I do not remember if it was an official source, or just logical speculation by a content creator, but a couple years ago I remember hearing that the logical plan would be to start building jumps from system to system, working towards the Odin system, since that's the star system they're building for SQ42. Odin is three jumps away from Stanton. It goes Stanton --> Pyro --> Nyx --> Odin. Terra is in the opposite direction from that, but it connects to Stanton and would extend the jump chain.

  • EchoEcho ski-bap ba-dapModerator mod
    I will absolutely say that ignoring SC for a decade was the right thing for me to do, though. We'll see if they start delivering faster now that Squadron 42 is "feature complete".

  • StericaSterica Yes Registered User, Moderator mod
    Zavian wrote: »
    i kind of feel like 'how dare people spend thousands of dollars on something they enjoy' can be used against any hobby

    like, you never 'have' to spend thousands of dollars on any given hobby really, but as long as it's being targeted towards grown adults making their own financial decisions I really don't see the problem
    When I order $48,000 worth of LEGO, I get $48,000 worth of LEGO. Not the red bricks and some green bricks and an IOU that still hasn’t delivered a decade later.

    YL9WnCY.png
  • Nova_CNova_C I have the need The need for speedRegistered User regular
    I've long been of the opinion that buying ships with real money at all is silly. I'm unsure how much longevity there is to play for people who unlock the entire progression system right away. Maybe it'll be fine?

    I do know that time and again, companies have been shown to revoke access to paid content (Happens to streaming sites for 'bought' movies and shows), and I have zero faith in CIG or whoever that they will never do something like that. If you have a few grand to burn on buying pretend ships, great, but it is very silly to do, and I don't think it's weird for people to think it's strange or odd or is predatory on the developer's part. No is forced at gunpoint to buy into a pyramid scheme either, but those people go to jail, so having the choice not to do something doesn't absolve anyone. I'm not saying that I think Star Citizen is a scam, I've long been of the opinion that it's not, but I think that selling pretend ships for thousands of dollars is certainly taking the piss, so to speak.

  • LucascraftLucascraft Registered User regular
    I think the concept of "straight to flyable" is generally okay and handled well. People can pay real money to get a ship right away. Or they can wait a quarter after release, and then buy the ship with in-game currency just by playing the game.

    And that's generally how I prefer to play. Yes, I have bought a few ships. But the ships I have bought are generally all very low on the progression path and I have left myself plenty of room for goals to earn in-game. In fact, for me, as someone who likes collecting things, I feel a big part of SC is going to be ship collection. Which is why I'm just over here waiting for them to say "no more wipes." Because while I do enjoy collecting things, I don't enjoy lost effort. So I only want to have to collect these ships once. Which means for now, my time spent in SC is mostly just as a patch-tourist. I log in, I check out the new features and new stuff, and then I go back to just watching the news cycle and consuming YouTube content.

    Personally, however, I do have a problem with selling concept ships. The Banu Merchantman is a great example of why this is a flawed and poor business practice. The BMM has a bit of an infamous reputation at this point of the ship that is in eternal development. In some ways, it's kind of a metaphor for the entire game project. The BMM was in active development and being worked on by (I think) 3 senior ship designers at CIG. Then all 3 of those ship designers got poached away by a startup company that offered them insane salaries to make starships for an NFT game. That loss put an immediate dead stop to the BMM, and now it's back in limbo, with no active work being done on it. If I was someone who paid like $600 for that ship, or whatever the real money cost is, I'd be pretty pissed by this point. Yes, the circumstances are explainable and to a limited degree sympathetic. BUT! As a consumer, the reasons why don't matter. The only thing that matters is that after umpteen years they still haven't delivered the ship that was paid for. And that's pretty dirty.

  • Ninja Snarl PNinja Snarl P My helmet is my burden. Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered User regular
    Sterica wrote: »
    Zavian wrote: »
    i kind of feel like 'how dare people spend thousands of dollars on something they enjoy' can be used against any hobby

    like, you never 'have' to spend thousands of dollars on any given hobby really, but as long as it's being targeted towards grown adults making their own financial decisions I really don't see the problem
    When I order $48,000 worth of LEGO, I get $48,000 worth of LEGO. Not the red bricks and some green bricks and an IOU that still hasn’t delivered a decade later.

    The real question is why would you spend $48,000 dollars on the latter scenario when you know about it ahead of time? It's not a requirement for anything and honestly, if somebody has 48k they can drop on a game, I'd rather the money go to pay salaries for people working on the game than sit in that bank account.

    But mostly I don't care. I think it's a dumb idea and anybody would have to be insane to drop that kinda money here, but mostly I don't give a shit about a scenario that has nothing to do with the actual game itself. Particularly when there's actually unethical stuff out there like gacha games, squeezing kids and people with gambling issues for money under the guise of fake pretty shinies.

  • Mr RayMr Ray Sarcasm sphereRegistered User regular
    edited January 9
    Sterica wrote: »
    Zavian wrote: »
    i kind of feel like 'how dare people spend thousands of dollars on something they enjoy' can be used against any hobby

    like, you never 'have' to spend thousands of dollars on any given hobby really, but as long as it's being targeted towards grown adults making their own financial decisions I really don't see the problem
    When I order $48,000 worth of LEGO, I get $48,000 worth of LEGO. Not the red bricks and some green bricks and an IOU that still hasn’t delivered a decade later.

    The real question is why would you spend $48,000 dollars on the latter scenario when you know about it ahead of time? It's not a requirement for anything and honestly, if somebody has 48k they can drop on a game, I'd rather the money go to pay salaries for people working on the game than sit in that bank account.

    But mostly I don't care. I think it's a dumb idea and anybody would have to be insane to drop that kinda money here, but mostly I don't give a shit about a scenario that has nothing to do with the actual game itself. Particularly when there's actually unethical stuff out there like gacha games, squeezing kids and people with gambling issues for money under the guise of fake pretty shinies.

    The key difference to me is that those gacha games are targeted towards children and people with poor impulse control / who are susceptible to gambling addictions. Star Citizen's $1000+ whale ships are targeted at... whales. Internet nerds with a lot of disposable income who have bought into the hype that Star Citizen will be the BEST GAME EVAR if only enough people keep throwing money at Chris Roberts. So on the one hand yes its kind of predatory because obviously they want you to want to buy the internet spaceships, but on the other hand are you really a predator if your prey runs up to you and enthusiastically jumps down your throat yelling "YAAAAY I LOVE BEING EATEN"?

    Reminds me of a very frank conversation the wife and I had with a Disney employee one time; Disney is obviously a huge corporation that first and foremost wants to make money, but they're also in the business of selling dreams. And that dream can shatter pretty quickly if it becomes obvious that the "happiest place on earth" is only after your money. Which they are, obviously, but under no circumstances must the customer realize this. As she put it, "The mouse wants your money, but he's not going to pry it out of your hands. He wants you to WANT to give him your money." Which seems relevant since Chris Roberts is also in the business of selling dreams.

    Mr Ray on
  • LucascraftLucascraft Registered User regular
    The RSI Apollo has long been my "dream ship" and it is still my ambition to get one and join an org and be part of the medical / support staff. I think it sounds fun from both a gameplay perspective and also from a lite RP perspective.

    When I was first researching and getting into SC, I looked up the Apollo on the RSI storefront and had immediate sticker shock. It was selling for like $375 or something ludicrous like that. For the shortest of split seconds I actually considered that price. After all, it is my dream ship, right? But then my rational brain kicked in and I immediately was like "WTF No fucking way. I'm not paying $375 for an imaginary spaceship." Which, at this point many years later still doesn't exist in the game yet. Hopefully it will soon, because CIG is doing a big push specifically on RSI manufactured ships. They're working on the Apollo, Galaxy, Polaris, and several others all at the same time in an effort to keep everybody speaking the same design language and etc.

    Anyway, getting off topic. That was before I developed my "don't jump straight to your dream ship" rule. The few ships that I have purchased have all been in the low range and even then, I've probably spent too much on ships. My biggest purchase has been the MSR, and I used part of my $1000 covid stimulus check on that, so I didn't feel so bad about that one because it wasn't "my money." It was free money from the gov't. So really, Uncle Sam bought me my MSR.

  • LJDouglasLJDouglas Registered User regular
    One aspect people who have paid real money for ships will have a rude awakening on is ship insurance. While a lot of the fancier packs have lifetime insurance (or insurance for over a decade so basically the lifetime of the game) there are plenty with much shorter periods of insurance for the hulls. They aren't starting the timers of insurance until the game leaves alpha and they've not said exactly how they're planning on it working, but I can't imagine people who have paid hundreds of dollars in their pretend spaceships will be happy when they have to spend millions of in game credits to either reactivate insurance if that's a thing, or just have to go and buy the ship in game outright, possibly including a rep grind to unlock it depending on the ship.

  • dporowskidporowski Registered User regular
    edited January 9
    Mr Ray wrote: »
    Sterica wrote: »
    Zavian wrote: »
    i kind of feel like 'how dare people spend thousands of dollars on something they enjoy' can be used against any hobby

    like, you never 'have' to spend thousands of dollars on any given hobby really, but as long as it's being targeted towards grown adults making their own financial decisions I really don't see the problem
    When I order $48,000 worth of LEGO, I get $48,000 worth of LEGO. Not the red bricks and some green bricks and an IOU that still hasn’t delivered a decade later.

    The real question is why would you spend $48,000 dollars on the latter scenario when you know about it ahead of time? It's not a requirement for anything and honestly, if somebody has 48k they can drop on a game, I'd rather the money go to pay salaries for people working on the game than sit in that bank account.

    But mostly I don't care. I think it's a dumb idea and anybody would have to be insane to drop that kinda money here, but mostly I don't give a shit about a scenario that has nothing to do with the actual game itself. Particularly when there's actually unethical stuff out there like gacha games, squeezing kids and people with gambling issues for money under the guise of fake pretty shinies.

    The key difference to me is that those gacha games are targeted towards children and people with poor impulse control / who are susceptible to gambling addictions. Star Citizen's $1000+ whale ships are targeted at... whales. Internet nerds with a lot of disposable income who have bought into the hype that Star Citizen will be the BEST GAME EVAR if only enough people keep throwing money at Chris Roberts. So on the one hand yes its kind of predatory because obviously they want you to want to buy the internet spaceships, but on the other hand are you really a predator if your prey runs up to you and enthusiastically jumps down your throat yelling "YAAAAY I LOVE BEING EATEN"?

    Reminds me of a very frank conversation the wife and I had with a Disney employee one time; Disney is obviously a huge corporation that first and foremost wants to make money, but they're also in the business of selling dreams. And that dream can shatter pretty quickly if it becomes obvious that the "happiest place on earth" is only after your money. Which they are, obviously, but under no circumstances must the customer realize this. As she put it, "The mouse wants your money, but he's not going to pry it out of your hands. He wants you to WANT to give him your money." Which seems relevant since Chris Roberts is also in the business of selling dreams.

    Las Vegas is much the same. Las Vegas is very literally built around extracting as much money from you as possible, in as many ways as possible. The thing is, in most cases you're going to have such a good time doing it, you'll want to go back and do it again.

    Edit: And like it is not subtle. Everyone knows why everyone else is there. If anyone's actually under the impression Vegas isn't attempting to take your wallet, empty it, sell you a new wallet, then offer you a chance to win something to fill it with (just need to wager that wallet there...) then that person probably also shouldn't be allowed "a fork".

    dporowski on
  • kaidkaid Registered User regular
    Lucascraft wrote: »
    So a couple insights and opinions here…

    1) CIG raising the price on the all-ships bundle to include all the new ships that have been released over the past year or so is not really news.

    2) Nearly every gaming news outlet and even a few mainstream news outlets have covered this story. Why? Because it’s easy clickbait, and drama drives marketing. Every year news outlets like to shake the hornets nest on Star Citizen, because it’s basically free views and free engagement on their sites and comments sections. But it’s also incredibly lazy journalism.

    3) The thing that annoys me about all this is how sensationalistic this all is, and how clearly biased it is. They are intentionally trying to make people mad by only reporting half the story.

    4) The full story is that yes, CIG is selling a $48,000 bundle, but every ship that currently exists in the game can be purchased for in-game credits just by playing the game. And it’s not even that hard to save up the game currency to build a big personal fleet. That’s the part that never gets reported, or gets buried in a footnote at the end of a sensationalist article.

    5) Nobody is being forced to buy this bundle to play or enjoy the game. You can spend $40 during a sale to buy a starter pack and earn and unlock everything currently available in the game without ever spending another cent beyond that. But news headlines are conveniently ignoring that fact because that is mundane and doesn’t drive clicks.

    Literally any game offering a $48,000 anything package that's not giving you equity in the game deserves to be relentlessly mocked literally any time there's something new to be said about it. I think maybe you've gone nose-blind to how conceptually fucked that is.

    The fact they are only offering that package to people who have already spent 10 grand on the game is not something I can find very predatory. It is like the uber tiers in a kick starter the money is not for the things you are getting it is a show of backing a project you support. I can't see ever doing something like that but say what you want CIG has found a way to generate an amazing amount of revenue to make their game and if people want to get in on that and have that kind of money around I don't have any major issues with it. It really isn't that much different than normal development where they go around to find various backers except CIG has managed to do it without having to sacrifice a lot of equity to keep their funding levels up.

  • SageinaRageSageinaRage Registered User regular
    Not very fond of some of these takes here.
    Mr Ray wrote: »
    The key difference to me is that those gacha games are targeted towards children and people with poor impulse control / who are susceptible to gambling addictions. Star Citizen's $1000+ whale ships are targeted at... whales.

    You just repeated yourself. Those are the same person. The fact that you think they're different means that the propaganda is working.
    Disney is obviously a huge corporation that first and foremost wants to make money, but they're also in the business of selling dreams.

    No, Disney is in the business of selling products. You might pay out the nose for a dream trip to disney world, but you are actually receiving the advertised service. Star Citizen is selling thousand dollar IOU's.
    dporowski wrote: »
    Las Vegas is much the same. Las Vegas is very literally built around extracting as much money from you as possible, in as many ways as possible. The thing is, in most cases you're going to have such a good time doing it, you'll want to go back and do it again.

    Edit: And like it is not subtle. Everyone knows why everyone else is there. If anyone's actually under the impression Vegas isn't attempting to take your wallet, empty it, sell you a new wallet, then offer you a chance to win something to fill it with (just need to wager that wallet there...) then that person probably also shouldn't be allowed "a fork".

    People who go to Vegas for a trip, drop a reasonable amount of money, and then leave, are not how Vegas stays in business. Next time you go look at the rows of dead eyed people lining up on slots or video poker.

    And if your position is 'a reasonable person would have seen through the scam', that's just another way of saying 'it's ok to scam vulnerable people', which isn't great.
    kaid wrote: »
    The fact they are only offering that package to people who have already spent 10 grand on the game is not something I can find very predatory.

    Why, it's not predatory to prey on people who have already been preyed upon before? Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, that's ok?


    People are turning themselves inside out here to try to defend this, and it's all bad. The fact that they are trying to charge this much for largely unfinished game content is awful. It's definitely news, and good on news orgs for properly warning people away from it. It's not any better that everything you would pay real money for can be gotten by playing the game - that means that at best, getting it via playing is an awful grind, but at worst it's fraud (for selling something expensively that isn't worth the cost).

    I'm not going to say that people can't play or enjoy the game if they want, but you definitely don't have to defend these objectively shitty sales practices. I play some gacha games but I'm not going to defend the business model.

    sig.gif
  • RiboflavinRiboflavin Registered User regular
    I'm only here for Squadron 42 whenever it comes out. Maybe Star Citizen if it is "finalized" and proves to be awesome.

    However, when I hear figures like those massive packages I'm like "I'll be damned if I buy a game to be the person a whale gets to dominate."

    I can only speak for myself but its a big turn off.

  • Stabbity StyleStabbity Style He/Him | Warning: Mothership Reporting Kennewick, WARegistered User regular
    Riboflavin wrote: »
    I'm only here for Squadron 42 whenever it comes out. Maybe Star Citizen if it is "finalized" and proves to be awesome.

    However, when I hear figures like those massive packages I'm like "I'll be damned if I buy a game to be the person a whale gets to dominate."

    I can only speak for myself but its a big turn off.

    Good news, in 2016 they said Squadron 42 was nearly finished, so you know, any day now I'm sure it'll be out.

    https://www.tomshardware.com/news/squadron-42-delayed-star-citizen,32846.html

    Stabbity_Style.png
  • kaidkaid Registered User regular
    Riboflavin wrote: »
    I'm only here for Squadron 42 whenever it comes out. Maybe Star Citizen if it is "finalized" and proves to be awesome.

    However, when I hear figures like those massive packages I'm like "I'll be damned if I buy a game to be the person a whale gets to dominate."

    I can only speak for myself but its a big turn off.

    The funny thing even the alpha is not very whale dominated. Purchasing a ship with money gets you immediate access to it when it is available and when things go live some kind of insurance and then in a quarter it becomes available on the in game shops. Also during a lot of the in game holidays there are free fly events where you can freely rent some/all ships for the duration of the event to play with them. Some of the biggest whales I know in SC just recommend getting the 45 dollar game pack with a basic ship as it is all you really need to get access to everything in game.

  • LucascraftLucascraft Registered User regular
    edited January 9
    The absolute best time to get into Star Citizen is either during IAE during Q3 or during Fleet Week in the spring. Those are their biggest sale and marketing pushes of the year. And they always do a full free fly with nearly every ship. Sometimes even with ships that aren't officially released yet. Like for example during the last IAE they made the C1 Spirit free-flyable and that ship wasn't even released at the time.

    IAE is Intergalactic Aerospace Expo or something like that. It's an all-ships sale with an in-game convention hall dedicated to various ship manufacturers, rotating every couple days, and you can try any of the ships made by those manufacturers for free. And then there's always a final "fly everything" at the end.

    The other great time to get in is in the spring, during "Fleet Week" which is another expo, but with a focus only on military ships. So it's a bit smaller in scale but still big. And it's still a big marketing drive on the website.

    Either one of those events put the starter game packages on sale, and they do free flys in game so you can try tons of ships for free. If anyone is ever on the fence about it, I would always recommend waiting until IAE or Fleet Week.

    Lucascraft on
  • Blah64Blah64 Registered User regular
    Lucascraft wrote: »
    The absolute best time to get into Star Citizen is either during IAE during Q3 or during Fleet Week in the spring. Those are their biggest sale and marketing pushes of the year. And they always do a full free fly with nearly every ship. Sometimes even with ships that aren't officially released yet. Like for example during the last IAE they made the C1 Spirit free-flyable and that ship wasn't even released at the time.

    IAE is Intergalactic Aerospace Expo or something like that. It's an all-ships sale with an in-game convention hall dedicated to various ship manufacturers, rotating every couple days, and you can try any of the ships made by those manufacturers for free. And then there's always a final "fly everything" at the end.

    The other great time to get in is in the spring, during "Fleet Week" which is another expo, but with a focus only on military ships. So it's a bit smaller in scale but still big. And it's still a big marketing drive on the website.

    Either one of those events put the starter game packages on sale, and they do free flys in game so you can try tons of ships for free. If anyone is ever on the fence about it, I would always recommend waiting until IAE or Fleet Week.

    Those are also usually the worst times to play since the servers cannot keep up with the demand.

  • ArbitraryDescriptorArbitraryDescriptor changed Registered User regular
    edited January 9
    Why, it's not predatory to prey on people who have already been preyed upon before? Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, that's ok?
    Who is being fooled? They're buying an IOU and they know it's an IOU.

    Show me someone dropping $50k on SC that doesn't have at least twice that in cars / boats that they rarely use and doesn't know what they're buying, and I'll entertain the idea that terms "predator" and "prey" aren't deeply hyperbolic when applied to this context.

    Because, man, they sure seem to be.

    ArbitraryDescriptor on
Sign In or Register to comment.