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  • CoinageCoinage Heaviside LayerRegistered User regular
    They could double the tokens and 4 and 5 drop rates and it would still be very slow. Fortunately there's no precedent for Blizzard employees fucking lying let me just take a big sip of water and check if ActiBlizz has been in the news for any reason

  • lwt1973lwt1973 King of Thieves SyndicationRegistered User regular
    5700 more Tokens until Bast.

    Yeah……

    "He's sulking in his tent like Achilles! It's the Iliad?...from Homer?! READ A BOOK!!" -Handy
  • durandal4532durandal4532 Registered User regular
    I've still had the most luck climbing with my Move-based deck so far. Taking someone else's advice in the holiday thread I now basically try to look for good opportunities to snap early (Bifrost is out, I have Heimdall, another move-card, and a card that benefits from movement in my opening hand, etc) and leave any game where I can't predict the outcome pretty handily and especially if someone snaps the last turn, because... yeah your hand probably is good! I've almost never seen someone straight-up bluffing the final turn.

    # (1) Human Torch
    # (1) Iron Fist
    # (1) Yondu
    # (2) Kraven the Hunter
    # (2) Multiple Man
    # (2) Cloak
    # (3) Doctor Strange
    # (3) Vulture
    # (3) Hulk Buster
    # (4) Shang Chi
    # (5) Iron Man
    # (6) Heimdall

    The big benefit of a Move-focused deck is that it means that when I do win I tend to get 2/4/8 points instead of the 1-2 that I tended to get with a Patriot deck. It felt like I was winning 60% of my matches with Patriot, but that meant that I needed to play so many to climb. With Heimdall I can be like BAM did you do the math to realize that Iron Man would move from the right to the middle putting him alongside Heimdall and the now 16-power Human Torch?

    Also Multiple Man + Hulkbuster is so fun. You get a bunch of basically 5/7 cards that you can spread around, and if you happen to have Shuri's Lab oh boy those are now 5/20 because Hulkbuster counts as re-'playing' a card.

    Another good trick is if you pop a Vulture off of the Cloning Vats you get a 3/8 Vulture in your hand. I just really enjoy how much movement can mess with people's planning. I've had so many times where someone stacked 40-odd power on the right location only for it to be completely worthless.

    It's definitely a bit dependent on having your hand get filled in a correct order, pulling Iron Fist after Multiple Man or Vulture is out is a lot less useful. And having your whole opening hand filled with Cloak/Doctor Strange/Hulk Buster/Shang Chi certainly blows. But in general you can make it very hard for the other person to figure out what locations are actually in play at the end of the game. Though I do think maybe I should swap out Shang Chi with Storm. It feels great to totally annihilate a Devil Dinosaur, but I feel like having the ability to change a losing flooded zone to a winning one at the end of the game and get rid of annoying zones is probably more generally useful.

    Take a moment to donate what you can to Critical Resistance and Black Lives Matter.
    Local H JayAbsurdProposition
  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver You don't have to attend every argument you are invited to. Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    Yeah the best advice I can think of for this game is to treat it like poker: press your early advantage and get them to fold, and fold when your odds drop

    Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
    Smurph
  • MuffinatronMuffinatron Registered User regular
    For me the problem with the whole Series 4/5 stuff is that those cards are generally *very* powerful. They kind of have to be in order for you to spend your tokens on them.

    Making the transition up from Series 2 to Series 3 is rough. The current Series 4/5 system doubles down on that.

    Its unfortunate timing for a lot of the people that started at the open release. Just as you were getting enough series 3 cards to go toe to toe with the sharks prowling from pre-release they give those sharks bigger teeth.

    PSN: Holy-Promethium
  • ChaosHatChaosHat Hop, hop, hop, HA! Trick of the lightRegistered User regular
    Yeah the best advice I can think of for this game is to treat it like poker: press your early advantage and get them to fold, and fold when your odds drop

    This is literally the entire game. You should be retreating in about a third of your games. Hoogland showed his retreat ratio on stream, and his average cubes per game is like .38. Climbing is about playing edges and the odds over time.

  • ChaosHatChaosHat Hop, hop, hop, HA! Trick of the lightRegistered User regular
    For me the problem with the whole Series 4/5 stuff is that those cards are generally *very* powerful. They kind of have to be in order for you to spend your tokens on them.

    Making the transition up from Series 2 to Series 3 is rough. The current Series 4/5 system doubles down on that.

    Its unfortunate timing for a lot of the people that started at the open release. Just as you were getting enough series 3 cards to go toe to toe with the sharks prowling from pre-release they give those sharks bigger teeth.

    Sure some of them are very good. Many of them are not. It's just like all pools. There are many series 3 cards that are probably more powerful than any 4/5 cards, and I would say most of the best cards are series 2/3 cards honestly. This is hard to say definitively because something like Darkhawk is not replaceable at all, so in some decks he is the best card and you cannot play the deck without him, but that's...one very specific deck, but if all you want to do is play Darkhawk.dec then yeah, that's a bummer.

    In some kind of alternate universe where the moment you get into pool 3 you can instantly add ten cards to your collection of any pool, I'm going to guess almost all of those are pool 3 cards.

  • lwt1973lwt1973 King of Thieves SyndicationRegistered User regular
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    For me the problem with the whole Series 4/5 stuff is that those cards are generally *very* powerful. They kind of have to be in order for you to spend your tokens on them.

    Making the transition up from Series 2 to Series 3 is rough. The current Series 4/5 system doubles down on that.

    Its unfortunate timing for a lot of the people that started at the open release. Just as you were getting enough series 3 cards to go toe to toe with the sharks prowling from pre-release they give those sharks bigger teeth.

    Sure some of them are very good. Many of them are not. It's just like all pools. There are many series 3 cards that are probably more powerful than any 4/5 cards, and I would say most of the best cards are series 2/3 cards honestly. This is hard to say definitively because something like Darkhawk is not replaceable at all, so in some decks he is the best card and you cannot play the deck without him, but that's...one very specific deck, but if all you want to do is play Darkhawk.dec then yeah, that's a bummer.

    In some kind of alternate universe where the moment you get into pool 3 you can instantly add ten cards to your collection of any pool, I'm going to guess almost all of those are pool 3 cards.

    It's just annoying when you see certain decks that you have no chance to play right now. Darkhawk deck...nope. Bast deck...nope. Shuri deck...nope. Galactus deck...nope. It's not like Hearthstone where you have 30 or 40 cards so you can miss out on a card and even then you can create it usually quickly. Here it's either random or wait for ummmm 5700 tokens as I currently have 300.

    "He's sulking in his tent like Achilles! It's the Iliad?...from Homer?! READ A BOOK!!" -Handy
  • ChaosHatChaosHat Hop, hop, hop, HA! Trick of the lightRegistered User regular
    edited January 2023
    lwt1973 wrote: »
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    For me the problem with the whole Series 4/5 stuff is that those cards are generally *very* powerful. They kind of have to be in order for you to spend your tokens on them.

    Making the transition up from Series 2 to Series 3 is rough. The current Series 4/5 system doubles down on that.

    Its unfortunate timing for a lot of the people that started at the open release. Just as you were getting enough series 3 cards to go toe to toe with the sharks prowling from pre-release they give those sharks bigger teeth.

    Sure some of them are very good. Many of them are not. It's just like all pools. There are many series 3 cards that are probably more powerful than any 4/5 cards, and I would say most of the best cards are series 2/3 cards honestly. This is hard to say definitively because something like Darkhawk is not replaceable at all, so in some decks he is the best card and you cannot play the deck without him, but that's...one very specific deck, but if all you want to do is play Darkhawk.dec then yeah, that's a bummer.

    In some kind of alternate universe where the moment you get into pool 3 you can instantly add ten cards to your collection of any pool, I'm going to guess almost all of those are pool 3 cards.

    It's just annoying when you see certain decks that you have no chance to play right now. Darkhawk deck...nope. Bast deck...nope. Shuri deck...nope. Galactus deck...nope. It's not like Hearthstone where you have 30 or 40 cards so you can miss out on a card and even then you can create it usually quickly. Here it's either random or wait for ummmm 5700 tokens as I currently have 300.

    There is no deck that NEEDS Bast. A negative deck will still be super powerful without it. This game has so many viable deck archetypes, I could understand if you needed one of those four cards to compete and ladder, but you don't. You can play a lot of decks, and even if you can't build the "optimal" meta version there are lots and lots of swaps that are probably equivalently good or are just different, not worse.

    ChaosHat on
  • MuffinatronMuffinatron Registered User regular
    lwt1973 wrote: »
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    For me the problem with the whole Series 4/5 stuff is that those cards are generally *very* powerful. They kind of have to be in order for you to spend your tokens on them.

    Making the transition up from Series 2 to Series 3 is rough. The current Series 4/5 system doubles down on that.

    Its unfortunate timing for a lot of the people that started at the open release. Just as you were getting enough series 3 cards to go toe to toe with the sharks prowling from pre-release they give those sharks bigger teeth.

    Sure some of them are very good. Many of them are not. It's just like all pools. There are many series 3 cards that are probably more powerful than any 4/5 cards, and I would say most of the best cards are series 2/3 cards honestly. This is hard to say definitively because something like Darkhawk is not replaceable at all, so in some decks he is the best card and you cannot play the deck without him, but that's...one very specific deck, but if all you want to do is play Darkhawk.dec then yeah, that's a bummer.

    In some kind of alternate universe where the moment you get into pool 3 you can instantly add ten cards to your collection of any pool, I'm going to guess almost all of those are pool 3 cards.

    It's just annoying when you see certain decks that you have no chance to play right now. Darkhawk deck...nope. Bast deck...nope. Shuri deck...nope. Galactus deck...nope. It's not like Hearthstone where you have 30 or 40 cards so you can miss out on a card and even then you can create it usually quickly. Here it's either random or wait for ummmm 5700 tokens as I currently have 300.

    And then you have cards like Knull that just wreck face.

    PSN: Holy-Promethium
  • ChaosHatChaosHat Hop, hop, hop, HA! Trick of the lightRegistered User regular
    lwt1973 wrote: »
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    For me the problem with the whole Series 4/5 stuff is that those cards are generally *very* powerful. They kind of have to be in order for you to spend your tokens on them.

    Making the transition up from Series 2 to Series 3 is rough. The current Series 4/5 system doubles down on that.

    Its unfortunate timing for a lot of the people that started at the open release. Just as you were getting enough series 3 cards to go toe to toe with the sharks prowling from pre-release they give those sharks bigger teeth.

    Sure some of them are very good. Many of them are not. It's just like all pools. There are many series 3 cards that are probably more powerful than any 4/5 cards, and I would say most of the best cards are series 2/3 cards honestly. This is hard to say definitively because something like Darkhawk is not replaceable at all, so in some decks he is the best card and you cannot play the deck without him, but that's...one very specific deck, but if all you want to do is play Darkhawk.dec then yeah, that's a bummer.

    In some kind of alternate universe where the moment you get into pool 3 you can instantly add ten cards to your collection of any pool, I'm going to guess almost all of those are pool 3 cards.

    It's just annoying when you see certain decks that you have no chance to play right now. Darkhawk deck...nope. Bast deck...nope. Shuri deck...nope. Galactus deck...nope. It's not like Hearthstone where you have 30 or 40 cards so you can miss out on a card and even then you can create it usually quickly. Here it's either random or wait for ummmm 5700 tokens as I currently have 300.

    And then you have cards like Knull that just wreck face.

    Knull is probably an actively terrible card in this metagame and not very good in a neutral one. I'd wager a lot of people who burnt tokens on him are regretting that now.

    milskiAbsurdProposition
  • ChaosHatChaosHat Hop, hop, hop, HA! Trick of the lightRegistered User regular
    edited January 2023
    Apparently nobody told their Korean team the patch was delayed. Notes leaked on the Korean site. Obviously subject to change.
    leader nerfed 6/3

    aero nerfed 5/7

    galactus nerfed 6/2

    nova nerfed 1/1

    drex buffed 4/5 (+3 power when u guess)

    hazmat buffed 2/2

    black cat buffed 3/7

    nakia buffed 3/2

    Now, the number of Collector's Tokens received by collecting all Series 3 cards with Collector's Treasure will change. Individual payout tokens are not set at 400, but will be 200 to 600. However, the token acquisition rate remains the same.

    On one hand I'm not sure if this is actually that bad for Nova since the plan was to eat him ANYWAYS but man this feels super out of left field. I don't mind buffing the others, but overall nerfs/buffs seem like they're just throwing shit out at a dartboard and they're very stingy with it.

    ChaosHat on
    metaghost
  • SeGaTaiSeGaTai Registered User regular
    That is the annoying part about the meta collection - you can certainly win games with suboptimal lists - but you have no way of knowing if your opponent is playing with a best card in slot list or not.

    Right now you can get away with assuming they don't and still keep a decent WR but that doesn't really feel fun. Like I can play out a match assuming I lose to galactus/knull or a Zabu list if they have absorbing man and decent shot of winning if they don't; but that doesn't feel like its rewarding your decision making. I'm not sure of the rarity of those cards coming down really helps.

    PSN SeGaTai
    Inquisitor77
  • Crippl3Crippl3 oh noRegistered User regular
    oh the patch got delayed? Damn, any new timeframe for it?

  • ChaosHatChaosHat Hop, hop, hop, HA! Trick of the lightRegistered User regular
    SeGaTai wrote: »
    That is the annoying part about the meta collection - you can certainly win games with suboptimal lists - but you have no way of knowing if your opponent is playing with a best card in slot list or not.

    Right now you can get away with assuming they don't and still keep a decent WR but that doesn't really feel fun. Like I can play out a match assuming I lose to galactus/knull or a Zabu list if they have absorbing man and decent shot of winning if they don't; but that doesn't feel like its rewarding your decision making. I'm not sure of the rarity of those cards coming down really helps.

    I don't think you'd be wrong always assuming they have access to it. Whether or not they drew it...

    Except for Knull, because who cares. I've never played a Galactus game where I would have won if only they didn't have Knull, or lost if they did. Like if you can't win by Octopusing out my hand and following it up with a Shang-Chi/Death or whatever the hell, is anything going to help you? Especially in a meta where Enchantress/Shang-Chi are more prevalent than ever outside of pool 2, plus Rogue has been in style for a while.

  • ChaosHatChaosHat Hop, hop, hop, HA! Trick of the lightRegistered User regular
    Crippl3 wrote: »
    oh the patch got delayed? Damn, any new timeframe for it?

    Should be less than a week.

  • akjakakjak Thera Spooky GymRegistered User regular
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    lwt1973 wrote: »
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    For me the problem with the whole Series 4/5 stuff is that those cards are generally *very* powerful. They kind of have to be in order for you to spend your tokens on them.

    Making the transition up from Series 2 to Series 3 is rough. The current Series 4/5 system doubles down on that.

    Its unfortunate timing for a lot of the people that started at the open release. Just as you were getting enough series 3 cards to go toe to toe with the sharks prowling from pre-release they give those sharks bigger teeth.

    Sure some of them are very good. Many of them are not. It's just like all pools. There are many series 3 cards that are probably more powerful than any 4/5 cards, and I would say most of the best cards are series 2/3 cards honestly. This is hard to say definitively because something like Darkhawk is not replaceable at all, so in some decks he is the best card and you cannot play the deck without him, but that's...one very specific deck, but if all you want to do is play Darkhawk.dec then yeah, that's a bummer.

    In some kind of alternate universe where the moment you get into pool 3 you can instantly add ten cards to your collection of any pool, I'm going to guess almost all of those are pool 3 cards.

    It's just annoying when you see certain decks that you have no chance to play right now. Darkhawk deck...nope. Bast deck...nope. Shuri deck...nope. Galactus deck...nope. It's not like Hearthstone where you have 30 or 40 cards so you can miss out on a card and even then you can create it usually quickly. Here it's either random or wait for ummmm 5700 tokens as I currently have 300.

    And then you have cards like Knull that just wreck face.

    Knull is probably an actively terrible card in this metagame and not very good in a neutral one. I'd wager a lot of people who burnt tokens on him are regretting that now.

    Yeah, I held off on buying him because I realized it was just a "win more" card. Probably a Hulk would win in the same situations.

    My card acquisition problem at the moment is that the shop won't even show me series 5 cards. Since I un-pinned Knull it's been cycling between the three series four cards I don't have (well, two now because while waiting for any useable series 5 to show up I earned 3000 more tokens) or an ultimate variant, or Knull again. I don't think I've even ever seen Orka in my shop at all (not that I'd want to). It's just Coulson/Helicarrier erryday.

    Apparently the "will cycle through everything once before repeats" only applies to series 3, not everything else. So yeah.

    I stg, whichever of Darkhawk or Shuri shows up first I'm going to buy just to end my torment.

    (I do kinda want to make an AgaThanos deck though for maximum LULZ)

    Switch: SW-4133-1546-2720 (Thera)
    Twitch: akThera
    Steam: Thera
  • Zombie GandhiZombie Gandhi Registered User regular
    Buffinf Hazmat helps my "sick of grinding let's play Sweet Christmas for a while" deck of 4x Hazmat when Wong and Mystique like to play nice.

    Especially against Zoo/Patriot decks it feels so nice to just slam their entire deck into negatives.

    durandal4532
  • CoinageCoinage Heaviside LayerRegistered User regular
    Adding a casino on the tokens that averages to the same rate as before is beyond parody.

    SeGaTaiakjakdurandal4532MNC Doverlwt1973MuffinatronAbsurdPropositionDarkewolfe
  • ChaosHatChaosHat Hop, hop, hop, HA! Trick of the lightRegistered User regular
    edited January 2023
    akjak wrote: »
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    lwt1973 wrote: »
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    For me the problem with the whole Series 4/5 stuff is that those cards are generally *very* powerful. They kind of have to be in order for you to spend your tokens on them.

    Making the transition up from Series 2 to Series 3 is rough. The current Series 4/5 system doubles down on that.

    Its unfortunate timing for a lot of the people that started at the open release. Just as you were getting enough series 3 cards to go toe to toe with the sharks prowling from pre-release they give those sharks bigger teeth.

    Sure some of them are very good. Many of them are not. It's just like all pools. There are many series 3 cards that are probably more powerful than any 4/5 cards, and I would say most of the best cards are series 2/3 cards honestly. This is hard to say definitively because something like Darkhawk is not replaceable at all, so in some decks he is the best card and you cannot play the deck without him, but that's...one very specific deck, but if all you want to do is play Darkhawk.dec then yeah, that's a bummer.

    In some kind of alternate universe where the moment you get into pool 3 you can instantly add ten cards to your collection of any pool, I'm going to guess almost all of those are pool 3 cards.

    It's just annoying when you see certain decks that you have no chance to play right now. Darkhawk deck...nope. Bast deck...nope. Shuri deck...nope. Galactus deck...nope. It's not like Hearthstone where you have 30 or 40 cards so you can miss out on a card and even then you can create it usually quickly. Here it's either random or wait for ummmm 5700 tokens as I currently have 300.

    And then you have cards like Knull that just wreck face.

    Knull is probably an actively terrible card in this metagame and not very good in a neutral one. I'd wager a lot of people who burnt tokens on him are regretting that now.

    Yeah, I held off on buying him because I realized it was just a "win more" card. Probably a Hulk would win in the same situations.

    My card acquisition problem at the moment is that the shop won't even show me series 5 cards. Since I un-pinned Knull it's been cycling between the three series four cards I don't have (well, two now because while waiting for any useable series 5 to show up I earned 3000 more tokens) or an ultimate variant, or Knull again. I don't think I've even ever seen Orka in my shop at all (not that I'd want to). It's just Coulson/Helicarrier erryday.

    Apparently the "will cycle through everything once before repeats" only applies to series 3, not everything else. So yeah.

    I stg, whichever of Darkhawk or Shuri shows up first I'm going to buy just to end my torment.

    (I do kinda want to make an AgaThanos deck though for maximum LULZ)

    Orka is actually bugged and not in the game right now, fyi. And again, these leaked patch notes seem to indicate we will NOT see a downgrading of cards, but I'd probably hold on any 5s right now just in case?

    Shuri and Hawk are both pretty specific cards it'd be hard for me to choose one over the other. I'll say I've been exceedingly happy with my random Shuri pull though. She's very fun.

    ChaosHat on
  • SeGaTaiSeGaTai Registered User regular
    In the continued adventures of wins with M'Baku - opponent played leech on 5 while I'm holding M'Baku in hand. Played lockjaw-mbaku on 6 - M'baku goes back in the deck and apparently loses the leech effect - because he jumped right back out and gave me the win

    PSN SeGaTai
    durandal4532akjaklwt1973UrQuanLord88
  • akjakakjak Thera Spooky GymRegistered User regular
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    Crippl3 wrote: »
    oh the patch got delayed? Damn, any new timeframe for it?

    Should be less than a week.
    akjak wrote: »
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    lwt1973 wrote: »
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    For me the problem with the whole Series 4/5 stuff is that those cards are generally *very* powerful. They kind of have to be in order for you to spend your tokens on them.

    Making the transition up from Series 2 to Series 3 is rough. The current Series 4/5 system doubles down on that.

    Its unfortunate timing for a lot of the people that started at the open release. Just as you were getting enough series 3 cards to go toe to toe with the sharks prowling from pre-release they give those sharks bigger teeth.

    Sure some of them are very good. Many of them are not. It's just like all pools. There are many series 3 cards that are probably more powerful than any 4/5 cards, and I would say most of the best cards are series 2/3 cards honestly. This is hard to say definitively because something like Darkhawk is not replaceable at all, so in some decks he is the best card and you cannot play the deck without him, but that's...one very specific deck, but if all you want to do is play Darkhawk.dec then yeah, that's a bummer.

    In some kind of alternate universe where the moment you get into pool 3 you can instantly add ten cards to your collection of any pool, I'm going to guess almost all of those are pool 3 cards.

    It's just annoying when you see certain decks that you have no chance to play right now. Darkhawk deck...nope. Bast deck...nope. Shuri deck...nope. Galactus deck...nope. It's not like Hearthstone where you have 30 or 40 cards so you can miss out on a card and even then you can create it usually quickly. Here it's either random or wait for ummmm 5700 tokens as I currently have 300.

    And then you have cards like Knull that just wreck face.

    Knull is probably an actively terrible card in this metagame and not very good in a neutral one. I'd wager a lot of people who burnt tokens on him are regretting that now.

    Yeah, I held off on buying him because I realized it was just a "win more" card. Probably a Hulk would win in the same situations.

    My card acquisition problem at the moment is that the shop won't even show me series 5 cards. Since I un-pinned Knull it's been cycling between the three series four cards I don't have (well, two now because while waiting for any useable series 5 to show up I earned 3000 more tokens) or an ultimate variant, or Knull again. I don't think I've even ever seen Orka in my shop at all (not that I'd want to). It's just Coulson/Helicarrier erryday.

    Apparently the "will cycle through everything once before repeats" only applies to series 3, not everything else. So yeah.

    I stg, whichever of Darkhawk or Shuri shows up first I'm going to buy just to end my torment.

    (I do kinda want to make an AgaThanos deck though for maximum LULZ)

    Orka is actually bugged and not in the game right now, fyi. And again, these leaked patch notes seem to indicate we will NOT see a downgrading of cards, but I'd probably hold on any 5s right now just in case?

    Shuri and Hawk are both pretty specific cards it'd be hard for me to choose one over the other. I'll say I've been exceedingly happy with my random Shuri pull though. She's very fun.

    I looked at the next set of upcoming 5s and I don't want any of them more than those two. I did just pull Helicarrier from a reserve, just in time for the shop reset this morning! That makes Coulson the last series 4 I don't have.

    Darkhawk/Thanos/Galactus would get me a new archetype, pretty sure I don't wanna do the Galactus cheese and Darkhawk looks more consistent than Thanos.

    Shuri would just be "best in all the things," nice and future-proof, the safe and sane and probably best overall choice. But again, maybe also just a "win more" slot.

    Ahhhhh.

    Switch: SW-4133-1546-2720 (Thera)
    Twitch: akThera
    Steam: Thera
  • milskimilski Poyo! Registered User regular
    Doesn't buffing hazmat actually remove her from the game because her only viable deck is Cere1ro

    I ate an engineer
  • dporowskidporowski Registered User regular
    edited January 2023
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    lwt1973 wrote: »
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    For me the problem with the whole Series 4/5 stuff is that those cards are generally *very* powerful. They kind of have to be in order for you to spend your tokens on them.

    Making the transition up from Series 2 to Series 3 is rough. The current Series 4/5 system doubles down on that.

    Its unfortunate timing for a lot of the people that started at the open release. Just as you were getting enough series 3 cards to go toe to toe with the sharks prowling from pre-release they give those sharks bigger teeth.

    Sure some of them are very good. Many of them are not. It's just like all pools. There are many series 3 cards that are probably more powerful than any 4/5 cards, and I would say most of the best cards are series 2/3 cards honestly. This is hard to say definitively because something like Darkhawk is not replaceable at all, so in some decks he is the best card and you cannot play the deck without him, but that's...one very specific deck, but if all you want to do is play Darkhawk.dec then yeah, that's a bummer.

    In some kind of alternate universe where the moment you get into pool 3 you can instantly add ten cards to your collection of any pool, I'm going to guess almost all of those are pool 3 cards.

    It's just annoying when you see certain decks that you have no chance to play right now. Darkhawk deck...nope. Bast deck...nope. Shuri deck...nope. Galactus deck...nope. It's not like Hearthstone where you have 30 or 40 cards so you can miss out on a card and even then you can create it usually quickly. Here it's either random or wait for ummmm 5700 tokens as I currently have 300.

    There is no deck that NEEDS Bast. A negative deck will still be super powerful without it. This game has so many viable deck archetypes, I could understand if you needed one of those four cards to compete and ladder, but you don't. You can play a lot of decks, and even if you can't build the "optimal" meta version there are lots and lots of swaps that are probably equivalently good or are just different, not worse.

    Most swaps for a missing pool 3 card are explicit downgrades, and that leaves out the ones that basically define an archetype. "No you're supposed to retreat a lot" and "everyone should have a different collection" have papered over it to some extent, but at some point people will begin to realise "wait, I have to work twice as hard for not even the same result because I don't have..." and they'll bounce. "Intentionally distinct collections between players" only works if a given collection is on average as strong as any other, and Adam Warlock says hi; that doesn't work with random acquisition + varying card strength.

    Edit: Pools 4/5, that I'll grant. There may be no direct sub for She-hulk, but "big body you can cheat out" can be replaced, for instance. Surfer or Black Panther are also kind of niche/enabling pieces. Pool 3 is a problem though.

    dporowski on
  • ChaosHatChaosHat Hop, hop, hop, HA! Trick of the lightRegistered User regular
    milski wrote: »
    Doesn't buffing hazmat actually remove her from the game because her only viable deck is Cere1ro

    Uh I think it makes her slightly better in the Wong lists obviously, and since Wong is 2 power I wonder if there isn't a 2erebro build there?

  • milskimilski Poyo! Registered User regular
    As far as Knull goes I would argue he is strong in very specifically Galactus where he let's you play Galactus into any opposing lane and win on raw points from behind in priority in a way that even Death combos don't but that's a hell of a niche.

    I ate an engineer
  • milskimilski Poyo! Registered User regular
    edited January 2023
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    milski wrote: »
    Doesn't buffing hazmat actually remove her from the game because her only viable deck is Cere1ro

    Uh I think it makes her slightly better in the Wong lists obviously, and since Wong is 2 power I wonder if there isn't a 2erebro build there?

    Having to find and play a 1 power card in a 2erebro list and also committing a 4 cost 2 power card to the board in a list that can't gain power with On Reveals seems rough IMO, and Haz Mat Exodia was already worse than Gambit Exodia or any other Wong list.

    milski on
    I ate an engineer
  • milskimilski Poyo! Registered User regular
    As far as Nova goes, 1 power means you don't have priority as often which lets a T3 Armor nuke things more effectively, though it doesn't impact the Seracle build-your-own-Blue-Marvel-T6 plan.

    I ate an engineer
    MNC Dover
  • ObiFettObiFett Use the Force As You WishRegistered User regular
    I've tied so many Galactus players because I predict their play and lock down the lane with Prof X.

    Now those will be wins!

    akjakdiscrider
  • ChaosHatChaosHat Hop, hop, hop, HA! Trick of the lightRegistered User regular
    edited January 2023
    dporowski wrote: »
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    lwt1973 wrote: »
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    For me the problem with the whole Series 4/5 stuff is that those cards are generally *very* powerful. They kind of have to be in order for you to spend your tokens on them.

    Making the transition up from Series 2 to Series 3 is rough. The current Series 4/5 system doubles down on that.

    Its unfortunate timing for a lot of the people that started at the open release. Just as you were getting enough series 3 cards to go toe to toe with the sharks prowling from pre-release they give those sharks bigger teeth.

    Sure some of them are very good. Many of them are not. It's just like all pools. There are many series 3 cards that are probably more powerful than any 4/5 cards, and I would say most of the best cards are series 2/3 cards honestly. This is hard to say definitively because something like Darkhawk is not replaceable at all, so in some decks he is the best card and you cannot play the deck without him, but that's...one very specific deck, but if all you want to do is play Darkhawk.dec then yeah, that's a bummer.

    In some kind of alternate universe where the moment you get into pool 3 you can instantly add ten cards to your collection of any pool, I'm going to guess almost all of those are pool 3 cards.

    It's just annoying when you see certain decks that you have no chance to play right now. Darkhawk deck...nope. Bast deck...nope. Shuri deck...nope. Galactus deck...nope. It's not like Hearthstone where you have 30 or 40 cards so you can miss out on a card and even then you can create it usually quickly. Here it's either random or wait for ummmm 5700 tokens as I currently have 300.

    There is no deck that NEEDS Bast. A negative deck will still be super powerful without it. This game has so many viable deck archetypes, I could understand if you needed one of those four cards to compete and ladder, but you don't. You can play a lot of decks, and even if you can't build the "optimal" meta version there are lots and lots of swaps that are probably equivalently good or are just different, not worse.

    Most swaps for a missing pool 3 card are explicit downgrades, and that leaves out the ones that basically define an archetype. "No you're supposed to retreat a lot" and "everyone should have a different collection" have papered over it to some extent, but at some point people will begin to realise "wait, I have to work twice as hard for not even the same result because I don't have..." and they'll bounce. "Intentionally distinct collections between players" only works if a given collection is on average as strong as any other, and Adam Warlock says hi; that doesn't work with random acquisition + varying card strength.

    I do not understand the Adam Warlock point you're making here. If you're trying to say "he's only good with Bast" then he's a very bad card in that deck. Sort any win% and he's in the bottom 3 except for when played, where he's bottom 5. Most of the cards above him are...series 3 cards. So like, he's not only good with Bast. He's just not good at all ever, and he definitely doesn't define an archetype.

    Let's look at another deck, Sera Surfer, arguably one of the best decks in the game. Don't have Brood (the highest when played win rate card in the deck)? Your worst case scenario swap is Storm, who loses 8.5% win rate and goes all the way down to a measly 58% win rate when played. Obviously, you need Sera and Surfer, and there are not replacements for those. So find the deck that you do have the core, build around component for, and build THAT. You can make swaps with very minor reductions in your overall win rate. You'll note too this is why I didn't recommend Maximus for @MNC Dover If you don't have Maximus, you can put in literally Captain America and only lose a few points of win rate.

    "Hat I don't have any pool 3 cards." Okay, you have Devil Dinosaur. The win rate for inclusion in the deck goes from 66% to 60% and the only pool 3 card in the top 12 is Nick Fury, who everyone got for free.

    If your pool 3 unlocks have been some combination of Quake, Ronan, Mordo, Yellowjacket, Crystal, Dagger, Black Bolt, Adam Warlock, Miles, Jane Foster, and nothing else, then I'm sorry. I feel for you. Use your tokens to get a Sera or something. But realistically, your cards are not why you cannot win. The delta between a substitution is just not that big. What you need is the one or two core cards, and then make it work with what you have to fill it out. And if you don't have the core cards, play Devil Dino.

    ChaosHat on
    milskiakjakMNC Dover
  • ChaosHatChaosHat Hop, hop, hop, HA! Trick of the lightRegistered User regular
    milski wrote: »
    As far as Nova goes, 1 power means you don't have priority as often which lets a T3 Armor nuke things more effectively, though it doesn't impact the Seracle build-your-own-Blue-Marvel-T6 plan.

    I get why it's worse, I just don't get why it needs to be worse. Destroy decks have been on the downswing for a long time and you're already not even seeing the micro destroy packages (say, a Nova with only Carnage or Killmonger) anymore. It's a bummer because I like destroy but there's so much just incidental hate flying around for the archetype, I don't know why it needs to be WORSE.

  • ObiFettObiFett Use the Force As You WishRegistered User regular
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    dporowski wrote: »
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    lwt1973 wrote: »
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    For me the problem with the whole Series 4/5 stuff is that those cards are generally *very* powerful. They kind of have to be in order for you to spend your tokens on them.

    Making the transition up from Series 2 to Series 3 is rough. The current Series 4/5 system doubles down on that.

    Its unfortunate timing for a lot of the people that started at the open release. Just as you were getting enough series 3 cards to go toe to toe with the sharks prowling from pre-release they give those sharks bigger teeth.

    Sure some of them are very good. Many of them are not. It's just like all pools. There are many series 3 cards that are probably more powerful than any 4/5 cards, and I would say most of the best cards are series 2/3 cards honestly. This is hard to say definitively because something like Darkhawk is not replaceable at all, so in some decks he is the best card and you cannot play the deck without him, but that's...one very specific deck, but if all you want to do is play Darkhawk.dec then yeah, that's a bummer.

    In some kind of alternate universe where the moment you get into pool 3 you can instantly add ten cards to your collection of any pool, I'm going to guess almost all of those are pool 3 cards.

    It's just annoying when you see certain decks that you have no chance to play right now. Darkhawk deck...nope. Bast deck...nope. Shuri deck...nope. Galactus deck...nope. It's not like Hearthstone where you have 30 or 40 cards so you can miss out on a card and even then you can create it usually quickly. Here it's either random or wait for ummmm 5700 tokens as I currently have 300.

    There is no deck that NEEDS Bast. A negative deck will still be super powerful without it. This game has so many viable deck archetypes, I could understand if you needed one of those four cards to compete and ladder, but you don't. You can play a lot of decks, and even if you can't build the "optimal" meta version there are lots and lots of swaps that are probably equivalently good or are just different, not worse.

    Most swaps for a missing pool 3 card are explicit downgrades, and that leaves out the ones that basically define an archetype. "No you're supposed to retreat a lot" and "everyone should have a different collection" have papered over it to some extent, but at some point people will begin to realise "wait, I have to work twice as hard for not even the same result because I don't have..." and they'll bounce. "Intentionally distinct collections between players" only works if a given collection is on average as strong as any other, and Adam Warlock says hi; that doesn't work with random acquisition + varying card strength.

    I do not understand the Adam Warlock point you're making here. If you're trying to say "he's only good with Bast" then he's a very bad card in that deck. Sort any win% and he's in the bottom 3 except for when played, where he's bottom 5. Most of the cards above him are...series 3 cards. So like, he's not only good with Bast. He's just not good at all ever, and he definitely doesn't define an archetype.

    Let's look at another deck, Sera Surfer, arguably one of the best decks in the game. Don't have Brood (the highest when played win rate card in the deck)? Your worst case scenario swap is Storm, who loses 8.5% win rate and goes all the way down to a measly 58% win rate when played. Obviously, you need Sera and Surfer, and there are not replacements for those. So find the deck that you do have the core, build around component for, and build THAT. You can make swaps with very minor reductions in your overall win rate.

    "Hat I don't have any pool 3 cards." Okay, you have Devil Dinosaur. The win rate for inclusion in the deck goes from 66% to 60% and the only pool 3 card in the top 12 is Nick Fury, who everyone got for free.

    If your pool 3 unlocks have been some combination of Quake, Ronan, Mordo, Yellowjacket, Crystal, Dagger, Black Bolt, Adam Warlock, Miles, Jane Foster, and nothing else, then I'm sorry. I feel for you. Use your tokens to get a Sera or something. But realistically, your cards are not why you cannot win. The delta between a substitution is just not that big. What you need is the one or two core cards, and then make it work with what you have to fill it out. And if you don't have the core cards, play Devil Dino.

    Their point was that there is a difference in win rate and according to what you just posted thats true. Which means that players who are making substitutions do have to "work harder for the same result".

  • ChaosHatChaosHat Hop, hop, hop, HA! Trick of the lightRegistered User regular
    edited January 2023
    ObiFett wrote: »
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    dporowski wrote: »
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    lwt1973 wrote: »
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    For me the problem with the whole Series 4/5 stuff is that those cards are generally *very* powerful. They kind of have to be in order for you to spend your tokens on them.

    Making the transition up from Series 2 to Series 3 is rough. The current Series 4/5 system doubles down on that.

    Its unfortunate timing for a lot of the people that started at the open release. Just as you were getting enough series 3 cards to go toe to toe with the sharks prowling from pre-release they give those sharks bigger teeth.

    Sure some of them are very good. Many of them are not. It's just like all pools. There are many series 3 cards that are probably more powerful than any 4/5 cards, and I would say most of the best cards are series 2/3 cards honestly. This is hard to say definitively because something like Darkhawk is not replaceable at all, so in some decks he is the best card and you cannot play the deck without him, but that's...one very specific deck, but if all you want to do is play Darkhawk.dec then yeah, that's a bummer.

    In some kind of alternate universe where the moment you get into pool 3 you can instantly add ten cards to your collection of any pool, I'm going to guess almost all of those are pool 3 cards.

    It's just annoying when you see certain decks that you have no chance to play right now. Darkhawk deck...nope. Bast deck...nope. Shuri deck...nope. Galactus deck...nope. It's not like Hearthstone where you have 30 or 40 cards so you can miss out on a card and even then you can create it usually quickly. Here it's either random or wait for ummmm 5700 tokens as I currently have 300.

    There is no deck that NEEDS Bast. A negative deck will still be super powerful without it. This game has so many viable deck archetypes, I could understand if you needed one of those four cards to compete and ladder, but you don't. You can play a lot of decks, and even if you can't build the "optimal" meta version there are lots and lots of swaps that are probably equivalently good or are just different, not worse.

    Most swaps for a missing pool 3 card are explicit downgrades, and that leaves out the ones that basically define an archetype. "No you're supposed to retreat a lot" and "everyone should have a different collection" have papered over it to some extent, but at some point people will begin to realise "wait, I have to work twice as hard for not even the same result because I don't have..." and they'll bounce. "Intentionally distinct collections between players" only works if a given collection is on average as strong as any other, and Adam Warlock says hi; that doesn't work with random acquisition + varying card strength.

    I do not understand the Adam Warlock point you're making here. If you're trying to say "he's only good with Bast" then he's a very bad card in that deck. Sort any win% and he's in the bottom 3 except for when played, where he's bottom 5. Most of the cards above him are...series 3 cards. So like, he's not only good with Bast. He's just not good at all ever, and he definitely doesn't define an archetype.

    Let's look at another deck, Sera Surfer, arguably one of the best decks in the game. Don't have Brood (the highest when played win rate card in the deck)? Your worst case scenario swap is Storm, who loses 8.5% win rate and goes all the way down to a measly 58% win rate when played. Obviously, you need Sera and Surfer, and there are not replacements for those. So find the deck that you do have the core, build around component for, and build THAT. You can make swaps with very minor reductions in your overall win rate.

    "Hat I don't have any pool 3 cards." Okay, you have Devil Dinosaur. The win rate for inclusion in the deck goes from 66% to 60% and the only pool 3 card in the top 12 is Nick Fury, who everyone got for free.

    If your pool 3 unlocks have been some combination of Quake, Ronan, Mordo, Yellowjacket, Crystal, Dagger, Black Bolt, Adam Warlock, Miles, Jane Foster, and nothing else, then I'm sorry. I feel for you. Use your tokens to get a Sera or something. But realistically, your cards are not why you cannot win. The delta between a substitution is just not that big. What you need is the one or two core cards, and then make it work with what you have to fill it out. And if you don't have the core cards, play Devil Dino.

    Their point was that there is a difference in win rate and according to what you just posted thats true. Which means that players who are making substitutions do have to "work harder for the same result".

    I dunno I guess I just don't think 2% win rate is keeping someone from infinite. Like this is a game where you should be retreating over 1/3rd of your games even if you have every single card.

    Like the Brood to Storm example goes from high 60% to high 50% win rate. I'm sorry if a high 50% win rate isn't good enough for you?

    ChaosHat on
  • milskimilski Poyo! Registered User regular
    Those winrate differences are also absolutely massive and way, way more impactful than I expected. A 6% difference in winrate between an effectively 3/5 and a 3/7 with downside is nuts, no wonder the devs make such minor power adjustments on patches.

    I ate an engineer
  • akjakakjak Thera Spooky GymRegistered User regular
    edited January 2023
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    milski wrote: »
    As far as Nova goes, 1 power means you don't have priority as often which lets a T3 Armor nuke things more effectively, though it doesn't impact the Seracle build-your-own-Blue-Marvel-T6 plan.

    I get why it's worse, I just don't get why it needs to be worse. Destroy decks have been on the downswing for a long time and you're already not even seeing the micro destroy packages (say, a Nova with only Carnage or Killmonger) anymore. It's a bummer because I like destroy but there's so much just incidental hate flying around for the archetype, I don't know why it needs to be WORSE.

    You're not? There was a budget control deck posted that was at the top of reddit a couple days ago, that then became everyone playing it that specifically had nova/killmonger on 6 as a strategy.

    My Sera/Surfer deck, which is my own most successful deck also runs it. It's "Surfer at home" for when we don't draw Surfer.

    I mean, with Patriot still being such a top tier deck, I'm surprised nearly everyone isn't packing a pocket Killmonger still. Ultron is rampant and the deck runs absolutely 0 defense against being Killmonger'd.

    akjak on
    Switch: SW-4133-1546-2720 (Thera)
    Twitch: akThera
    Steam: Thera
  • ChaosHatChaosHat Hop, hop, hop, HA! Trick of the lightRegistered User regular
    edited January 2023
    akjak wrote: »
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    milski wrote: »
    As far as Nova goes, 1 power means you don't have priority as often which lets a T3 Armor nuke things more effectively, though it doesn't impact the Seracle build-your-own-Blue-Marvel-T6 plan.

    I get why it's worse, I just don't get why it needs to be worse. Destroy decks have been on the downswing for a long time and you're already not even seeing the micro destroy packages (say, a Nova with only Carnage or Killmonger) anymore. It's a bummer because I like destroy but there's so much just incidental hate flying around for the archetype, I don't know why it needs to be WORSE.

    You're not? There was a budget control deck posted that was at the top of reddit a couple days ago, that then became everyone playing it that specifically had nova/killmonger on 6 as a strategy.

    My Sera/Surfer deck, which is my own most successful deck also runs it. It's "Surfer at home" for when we don't draw Surfer.

    I mean, with Patriot still being such a top tier deck, I'm surprised nearly everyone isn't packing a pocket Killmonger still. Ultron is rampant and the deck runs absolutely 0 defense against being Killmonger'd.

    This tier list from launch has a lot more Nova and at higher tiers. Deathwave rarely runs Nova anymore. Now, like you said, lots of decks CAN run it, but it's a long way from it's heyday. There's just a LOT of Armor out there.

    Patriot also usually loses priority into turn 6 so you can't Killmonger me anyways. Also legitimately so many Killmonger players will get horny to off my Squirrel Girl and Misty Knight on turn 3 and just be like "oh yeah...Ultron."

    Like I don't think Nova is/was breaking anything and he has a lower playrate than Iceman so I don't think you can argue he's too ubiquitous. Nova/Destroy just out here catching strays.

    ChaosHat on
  • akjakakjak Thera Spooky GymRegistered User regular
    IT'S FUCKING COULSON AGAIN I'M NEVER GOING TO SEE ANOTHER CARD IN MY SHOP EVER AM I

    Switch: SW-4133-1546-2720 (Thera)
    Twitch: akThera
    Steam: Thera
  • MNC DoverMNC Dover Full-time Voice Actor Kirkland, WARegistered User regular
    Absorbing Man in my shop just now. I really want him, but at 3k tokens, that's a hard pass. One day...

    Need a voice actor? Hire me at bengrayVO.com
    Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
    Switch ID: MNC Dover SW-1154-3107-1051
    Steam ID
    Twitch Page
  • ChaosHatChaosHat Hop, hop, hop, HA! Trick of the lightRegistered User regular
    milski wrote: »
    Those winrate differences are also absolutely massive and way, way more impactful than I expected. A 6% difference in winrate between an effectively 3/5 and a 3/7 with downside is nuts, no wonder the devs make such minor power adjustments on patches.

    I'd be interested to see what % of Maximus plays in Sera Surfer are actually "with downside." I'm going to guess more often than not he's a vanilla 3/7 on turn 6 which is, yeah, pretty good.

  • MNC DoverMNC Dover Full-time Voice Actor Kirkland, WARegistered User regular
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    milski wrote: »
    Those winrate differences are also absolutely massive and way, way more impactful than I expected. A 6% difference in winrate between an effectively 3/5 and a 3/7 with downside is nuts, no wonder the devs make such minor power adjustments on patches.

    I'd be interested to see what % of Maximus plays in Sera Surfer are actually "with downside." I'm going to guess more often than not he's a vanilla 3/7 on turn 6 which is, yeah, pretty good.

    Most people drop Maximus on t6 to work around the downside and the common sub is Swordmaster, since it’s only a 1 power difference.

    Need a voice actor? Hire me at bengrayVO.com
    Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
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