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  • ObiFettObiFett Use the Force As You WishRegistered User regular
    MNC Dover wrote: »
    Absorbing Man in my shop just now. I really want him, but at 3k tokens, that's a hard pass. One day...

    I just pulled him from a cache. What should I be doing with him?

    MNC Dover
  • dporowskidporowski Registered User regular
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    dporowski wrote: »
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    lwt1973 wrote: »
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    For me the problem with the whole Series 4/5 stuff is that those cards are generally *very* powerful. They kind of have to be in order for you to spend your tokens on them.

    Making the transition up from Series 2 to Series 3 is rough. The current Series 4/5 system doubles down on that.

    Its unfortunate timing for a lot of the people that started at the open release. Just as you were getting enough series 3 cards to go toe to toe with the sharks prowling from pre-release they give those sharks bigger teeth.

    Sure some of them are very good. Many of them are not. It's just like all pools. There are many series 3 cards that are probably more powerful than any 4/5 cards, and I would say most of the best cards are series 2/3 cards honestly. This is hard to say definitively because something like Darkhawk is not replaceable at all, so in some decks he is the best card and you cannot play the deck without him, but that's...one very specific deck, but if all you want to do is play Darkhawk.dec then yeah, that's a bummer.

    In some kind of alternate universe where the moment you get into pool 3 you can instantly add ten cards to your collection of any pool, I'm going to guess almost all of those are pool 3 cards.

    It's just annoying when you see certain decks that you have no chance to play right now. Darkhawk deck...nope. Bast deck...nope. Shuri deck...nope. Galactus deck...nope. It's not like Hearthstone where you have 30 or 40 cards so you can miss out on a card and even then you can create it usually quickly. Here it's either random or wait for ummmm 5700 tokens as I currently have 300.

    There is no deck that NEEDS Bast. A negative deck will still be super powerful without it. This game has so many viable deck archetypes, I could understand if you needed one of those four cards to compete and ladder, but you don't. You can play a lot of decks, and even if you can't build the "optimal" meta version there are lots and lots of swaps that are probably equivalently good or are just different, not worse.

    Most swaps for a missing pool 3 card are explicit downgrades, and that leaves out the ones that basically define an archetype. "No you're supposed to retreat a lot" and "everyone should have a different collection" have papered over it to some extent, but at some point people will begin to realise "wait, I have to work twice as hard for not even the same result because I don't have..." and they'll bounce. "Intentionally distinct collections between players" only works if a given collection is on average as strong as any other, and Adam Warlock says hi; that doesn't work with random acquisition + varying card strength.

    I do not understand the Adam Warlock point you're making here. If you're trying to say "he's only good with Bast" then he's a very bad card in that deck. Sort any win% and he's in the bottom 3 except for when played, where he's bottom 5. Most of the cards above him are...series 3 cards. So like, he's not only good with Bast. He's just not good at all ever, and he definitely doesn't define an archetype.

    Let's look at another deck, Sera Surfer, arguably one of the best decks in the game. Don't have Brood (the highest when played win rate card in the deck)? Your worst case scenario swap is Storm, who loses 8.5% win rate and goes all the way down to a measly 58% win rate when played. Obviously, you need Sera and Surfer, and there are not replacements for those. So find the deck that you do have the core, build around component for, and build THAT. You can make swaps with very minor reductions in your overall win rate. You'll note too this is why I didn't recommend Maximus for @MNC Dover If you don't have Maximus, you can put in literally Captain America and only lose a few points of win rate.

    "Hat I don't have any pool 3 cards." Okay, you have Devil Dinosaur. The win rate for inclusion in the deck goes from 66% to 60% and the only pool 3 card in the top 12 is Nick Fury, who everyone got for free.

    If your pool 3 unlocks have been some combination of Quake, Ronan, Mordo, Yellowjacket, Crystal, Dagger, Black Bolt, Adam Warlock, Miles, Jane Foster, and nothing else, then I'm sorry. I feel for you. Use your tokens to get a Sera or something. But realistically, your cards are not why you cannot win. The delta between a substitution is just not that big. What you need is the one or two core cards, and then make it work with what you have to fill it out. And if you don't have the core cards, play Devil Dino.

    My pool 3 unlocks until very recently were worse than that actually. :p Absolutely epic.

    I'm purely (as said by ObiFett) commenting that "yeah you can swap, but it's not an equivalent piece". There needs to be a way other than "twiddle thumbs" to fix this, simply; maybe it's all fine if everyone's got a mostly complete pool 3 to work with, and I have a feeling that's the case. But if you've got 5-10 pool 3 cards, you could have anything from "actual workhorses" to "a giant pile of useless shit", and literally not be able to make anything but a budget/semi-functional pool 2+ deck.

    Can you still win? Sure, totally. Can you still ladder? Yep, sure. Is it harder for you than it is for someone who didn't get the shitty cards first? Also yes. That's pure feels-bad, because while "a good deck" is definitely something you want to work towards, there's just... No way to do so. If you're stuck running dino/moon girl at CL 1100 because all you've got is like, Hazmat and shit, "just keep running it" isn't satisfying to play when someone's dropping Leader, Doom, Aero on you every third game. Token gain is painfully slow if you're not pool 3-complete, and the shop just can't handle "the basics of pool 3"; it's for "I want" not "I need".

    Surfer actually helps, because most of a Surfer deck isn't pool 3 I think, but fuck, swapping Maximus for something else is huge, like. And I don't think "have to buy the pass to be usefully competitive" is what anyone wants.

  • CoinageCoinage Heaviside LayerRegistered User regular
    My second S4 card is Maria Hill after Coulson. Ben knows I'm opening these boxes on the clock...

  • MNC DoverMNC Dover Full-time Voice Actor Kirkland, WARegistered User regular
    ObiFett wrote: »
    MNC Dover wrote: »
    Absorbing Man in my shop just now. I really want him, but at 3k tokens, that's a hard pass. One day...

    I just pulled him from a cache. What should I be doing with him?

    First, congrats!

    Second, I’m stupid jealous.

    Third, he’s very strong in Zabu decks, allowing you to double up Spider-Man on turn 5, an extra Aero on t6, another Shang Chi, Hazmat, Drax, Rockslide, etc.

    Think about him as a Faceless Manipulator giving you a second copy of a card on your deck.

    Need a voice actor? Hire me at bengrayVO.com
    Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
    Switch ID: MNC Dover SW-1154-3107-1051
    Steam ID
    Twitch Page
  • ChaosHatChaosHat Hop, hop, hop, HA! Trick of the lightRegistered User regular
    MNC Dover wrote: »
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    milski wrote: »
    Those winrate differences are also absolutely massive and way, way more impactful than I expected. A 6% difference in winrate between an effectively 3/5 and a 3/7 with downside is nuts, no wonder the devs make such minor power adjustments on patches.

    I'd be interested to see what % of Maximus plays in Sera Surfer are actually "with downside." I'm going to guess more often than not he's a vanilla 3/7 on turn 6 which is, yeah, pretty good.

    Most people drop Maximus on t6 to work around the downside and the common sub is Swordmaster, since it’s only a 1 power difference.

    That's what I mean, in the Sera deck Maximus isn't really a 3/7 with downside most of the time. That really explains the difference in Milski's comparison if he's just a 3/7 with no ability 90% of the time.

    MNC Dover
  • akjakakjak Thera Spooky GymRegistered User regular
    I play him in my Cosmo lane a lot

    Switch: SW-4133-1546-2720 (Thera)
    Twitch: akThera
    Steam: Thera
    MNC Doverlwt1973initiatefailure
  • ChaosHatChaosHat Hop, hop, hop, HA! Trick of the lightRegistered User regular
    dporowski wrote: »
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    dporowski wrote: »
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    lwt1973 wrote: »
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    For me the problem with the whole Series 4/5 stuff is that those cards are generally *very* powerful. They kind of have to be in order for you to spend your tokens on them.

    Making the transition up from Series 2 to Series 3 is rough. The current Series 4/5 system doubles down on that.

    Its unfortunate timing for a lot of the people that started at the open release. Just as you were getting enough series 3 cards to go toe to toe with the sharks prowling from pre-release they give those sharks bigger teeth.

    Sure some of them are very good. Many of them are not. It's just like all pools. There are many series 3 cards that are probably more powerful than any 4/5 cards, and I would say most of the best cards are series 2/3 cards honestly. This is hard to say definitively because something like Darkhawk is not replaceable at all, so in some decks he is the best card and you cannot play the deck without him, but that's...one very specific deck, but if all you want to do is play Darkhawk.dec then yeah, that's a bummer.

    In some kind of alternate universe where the moment you get into pool 3 you can instantly add ten cards to your collection of any pool, I'm going to guess almost all of those are pool 3 cards.

    It's just annoying when you see certain decks that you have no chance to play right now. Darkhawk deck...nope. Bast deck...nope. Shuri deck...nope. Galactus deck...nope. It's not like Hearthstone where you have 30 or 40 cards so you can miss out on a card and even then you can create it usually quickly. Here it's either random or wait for ummmm 5700 tokens as I currently have 300.

    There is no deck that NEEDS Bast. A negative deck will still be super powerful without it. This game has so many viable deck archetypes, I could understand if you needed one of those four cards to compete and ladder, but you don't. You can play a lot of decks, and even if you can't build the "optimal" meta version there are lots and lots of swaps that are probably equivalently good or are just different, not worse.

    Most swaps for a missing pool 3 card are explicit downgrades, and that leaves out the ones that basically define an archetype. "No you're supposed to retreat a lot" and "everyone should have a different collection" have papered over it to some extent, but at some point people will begin to realise "wait, I have to work twice as hard for not even the same result because I don't have..." and they'll bounce. "Intentionally distinct collections between players" only works if a given collection is on average as strong as any other, and Adam Warlock says hi; that doesn't work with random acquisition + varying card strength.

    I do not understand the Adam Warlock point you're making here. If you're trying to say "he's only good with Bast" then he's a very bad card in that deck. Sort any win% and he's in the bottom 3 except for when played, where he's bottom 5. Most of the cards above him are...series 3 cards. So like, he's not only good with Bast. He's just not good at all ever, and he definitely doesn't define an archetype.

    Let's look at another deck, Sera Surfer, arguably one of the best decks in the game. Don't have Brood (the highest when played win rate card in the deck)? Your worst case scenario swap is Storm, who loses 8.5% win rate and goes all the way down to a measly 58% win rate when played. Obviously, you need Sera and Surfer, and there are not replacements for those. So find the deck that you do have the core, build around component for, and build THAT. You can make swaps with very minor reductions in your overall win rate. You'll note too this is why I didn't recommend Maximus for @MNC Dover If you don't have Maximus, you can put in literally Captain America and only lose a few points of win rate.

    "Hat I don't have any pool 3 cards." Okay, you have Devil Dinosaur. The win rate for inclusion in the deck goes from 66% to 60% and the only pool 3 card in the top 12 is Nick Fury, who everyone got for free.

    If your pool 3 unlocks have been some combination of Quake, Ronan, Mordo, Yellowjacket, Crystal, Dagger, Black Bolt, Adam Warlock, Miles, Jane Foster, and nothing else, then I'm sorry. I feel for you. Use your tokens to get a Sera or something. But realistically, your cards are not why you cannot win. The delta between a substitution is just not that big. What you need is the one or two core cards, and then make it work with what you have to fill it out. And if you don't have the core cards, play Devil Dino.

    My pool 3 unlocks until very recently were worse than that actually. :p Absolutely epic.

    I'm purely (as said by ObiFett) commenting that "yeah you can swap, but it's not an equivalent piece". There needs to be a way other than "twiddle thumbs" to fix this, simply; maybe it's all fine if everyone's got a mostly complete pool 3 to work with, and I have a feeling that's the case. But if you've got 5-10 pool 3 cards, you could have anything from "actual workhorses" to "a giant pile of useless shit", and literally not be able to make anything but a budget/semi-functional pool 2+ deck.

    Can you still win? Sure, totally. Can you still ladder? Yep, sure. Is it harder for you than it is for someone who didn't get the shitty cards first? Also yes. That's pure feels-bad, because while "a good deck" is definitely something you want to work towards, there's just... No way to do so. If you're stuck running dino/moon girl at CL 1100 because all you've got is like, Hazmat and shit, "just keep running it" isn't satisfying to play when someone's dropping Leader, Doom, Aero on you every third game. Token gain is painfully slow if you're not pool 3-complete, and the shop just can't handle "the basics of pool 3"; it's for "I want" not "I need".

    Surfer actually helps, because most of a Surfer deck isn't pool 3 I think, but fuck, swapping Maximus for something else is huge, like. And I don't think "have to buy the pass to be usefully competitive" is what anyone wants.

    Obviously they are not equivalent pieces, because they'd have to be literally the same card that way. What I mean is that this is something that you can swap and the deck will still have nearly the exact same win rate as it did before.

    What I'm trying to say is that this game is more like making tacos than baking a cake. If you don't have eggs, flour, etc you're not making a cake (don't @ me with your weird eggless flourless cakes) without a grocery store run. If you don't have ground beef for your tacos, you can go grab literally any other protein out of the fridge.

    It is more important to know how to cook than it is to have the best ingredients all the time.

  • Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    The game is like a car you see

    Crippl3MNC Dover
  • DelduwathDelduwath Registered User regular
    The game is like a car you see
    Yeah, you wouldn't download a Marvel Snap.

  • ChaosHatChaosHat Hop, hop, hop, HA! Trick of the lightRegistered User regular
    The game is like a car you see

    No, Snap is like an onion. It has layers.

    Crippl3
  • lwt1973lwt1973 King of Thieves SyndicationRegistered User regular
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    The game is like a car you see

    No, Snap is like an onion. It has layers.

    No, Snap is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're going to get.

    "He's sulking in his tent like Achilles! It's the Iliad?...from Homer?! READ A BOOK!!" -Handy
    MNC Doverakjak
  • ChaosHatChaosHat Hop, hop, hop, HA! Trick of the lightRegistered User regular
    lwt1973 wrote: »
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    The game is like a car you see

    No, Snap is like an onion. It has layers.

    No, Snap is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're going to get.

    Maybe a box of chocolates is like Snap. Only one out of every four random treats are any good.

    MNC DoverakjakDoctor Detroit
  • CoinageCoinage Heaviside LayerRegistered User regular
    Coinage wrote: »
    My second S4 card is Maria Hill after Coulson. Ben knows I'm opening these boxes on the clock...
    Okay but seriously, 2 hours later while on my lunch break I open a cache and finally get Dr Doom. Science can't explain

    MNC DoverMuffinatronDoctor Detroit
  • dporowskidporowski Registered User regular
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    dporowski wrote: »
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    dporowski wrote: »
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    lwt1973 wrote: »
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    For me the problem with the whole Series 4/5 stuff is that those cards are generally *very* powerful. They kind of have to be in order for you to spend your tokens on them.

    Making the transition up from Series 2 to Series 3 is rough. The current Series 4/5 system doubles down on that.

    Its unfortunate timing for a lot of the people that started at the open release. Just as you were getting enough series 3 cards to go toe to toe with the sharks prowling from pre-release they give those sharks bigger teeth.

    Sure some of them are very good. Many of them are not. It's just like all pools. There are many series 3 cards that are probably more powerful than any 4/5 cards, and I would say most of the best cards are series 2/3 cards honestly. This is hard to say definitively because something like Darkhawk is not replaceable at all, so in some decks he is the best card and you cannot play the deck without him, but that's...one very specific deck, but if all you want to do is play Darkhawk.dec then yeah, that's a bummer.

    In some kind of alternate universe where the moment you get into pool 3 you can instantly add ten cards to your collection of any pool, I'm going to guess almost all of those are pool 3 cards.

    It's just annoying when you see certain decks that you have no chance to play right now. Darkhawk deck...nope. Bast deck...nope. Shuri deck...nope. Galactus deck...nope. It's not like Hearthstone where you have 30 or 40 cards so you can miss out on a card and even then you can create it usually quickly. Here it's either random or wait for ummmm 5700 tokens as I currently have 300.

    There is no deck that NEEDS Bast. A negative deck will still be super powerful without it. This game has so many viable deck archetypes, I could understand if you needed one of those four cards to compete and ladder, but you don't. You can play a lot of decks, and even if you can't build the "optimal" meta version there are lots and lots of swaps that are probably equivalently good or are just different, not worse.

    Most swaps for a missing pool 3 card are explicit downgrades, and that leaves out the ones that basically define an archetype. "No you're supposed to retreat a lot" and "everyone should have a different collection" have papered over it to some extent, but at some point people will begin to realise "wait, I have to work twice as hard for not even the same result because I don't have..." and they'll bounce. "Intentionally distinct collections between players" only works if a given collection is on average as strong as any other, and Adam Warlock says hi; that doesn't work with random acquisition + varying card strength.

    I do not understand the Adam Warlock point you're making here. If you're trying to say "he's only good with Bast" then he's a very bad card in that deck. Sort any win% and he's in the bottom 3 except for when played, where he's bottom 5. Most of the cards above him are...series 3 cards. So like, he's not only good with Bast. He's just not good at all ever, and he definitely doesn't define an archetype.

    Let's look at another deck, Sera Surfer, arguably one of the best decks in the game. Don't have Brood (the highest when played win rate card in the deck)? Your worst case scenario swap is Storm, who loses 8.5% win rate and goes all the way down to a measly 58% win rate when played. Obviously, you need Sera and Surfer, and there are not replacements for those. So find the deck that you do have the core, build around component for, and build THAT. You can make swaps with very minor reductions in your overall win rate. You'll note too this is why I didn't recommend Maximus for @MNC Dover If you don't have Maximus, you can put in literally Captain America and only lose a few points of win rate.

    "Hat I don't have any pool 3 cards." Okay, you have Devil Dinosaur. The win rate for inclusion in the deck goes from 66% to 60% and the only pool 3 card in the top 12 is Nick Fury, who everyone got for free.

    If your pool 3 unlocks have been some combination of Quake, Ronan, Mordo, Yellowjacket, Crystal, Dagger, Black Bolt, Adam Warlock, Miles, Jane Foster, and nothing else, then I'm sorry. I feel for you. Use your tokens to get a Sera or something. But realistically, your cards are not why you cannot win. The delta between a substitution is just not that big. What you need is the one or two core cards, and then make it work with what you have to fill it out. And if you don't have the core cards, play Devil Dino.

    My pool 3 unlocks until very recently were worse than that actually. :p Absolutely epic.

    I'm purely (as said by ObiFett) commenting that "yeah you can swap, but it's not an equivalent piece". There needs to be a way other than "twiddle thumbs" to fix this, simply; maybe it's all fine if everyone's got a mostly complete pool 3 to work with, and I have a feeling that's the case. But if you've got 5-10 pool 3 cards, you could have anything from "actual workhorses" to "a giant pile of useless shit", and literally not be able to make anything but a budget/semi-functional pool 2+ deck.

    Can you still win? Sure, totally. Can you still ladder? Yep, sure. Is it harder for you than it is for someone who didn't get the shitty cards first? Also yes. That's pure feels-bad, because while "a good deck" is definitely something you want to work towards, there's just... No way to do so. If you're stuck running dino/moon girl at CL 1100 because all you've got is like, Hazmat and shit, "just keep running it" isn't satisfying to play when someone's dropping Leader, Doom, Aero on you every third game. Token gain is painfully slow if you're not pool 3-complete, and the shop just can't handle "the basics of pool 3"; it's for "I want" not "I need".

    Surfer actually helps, because most of a Surfer deck isn't pool 3 I think, but fuck, swapping Maximus for something else is huge, like. And I don't think "have to buy the pass to be usefully competitive" is what anyone wants.

    Obviously they are not equivalent pieces, because they'd have to be literally the same card that way. What I mean is that this is something that you can swap and the deck will still have nearly the exact same win rate as it did before.

    What I'm trying to say is that this game is more like making tacos than baking a cake. If you don't have eggs, flour, etc you're not making a cake (don't @ me with your weird eggless flourless cakes) without a grocery store run. If you don't have ground beef for your tacos, you can go grab literally any other protein out of the fridge.

    It is more important to know how to cook than it is to have the best ingredients all the time.

    Yeah, but if a single card swap is a 6% win rate differential, then while both players are making tacos, one has to make their own tortillas first.

    I realise fresh homemade tortillas are better, but you know what I mean, dammit.

  • Crippl3Crippl3 oh noRegistered User regular
    Valkyrie in my shop, and me with only 4100 tokens

  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver You don't have to attend every argument you are invited to. Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    Comparing it to cooking seems like a really forced analogy.

    It’s more like the Mario kart version of Texas hold ‘em.

    Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
  • ChaosHatChaosHat Hop, hop, hop, HA! Trick of the lightRegistered User regular
    dporowski wrote: »
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    dporowski wrote: »
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    dporowski wrote: »
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    lwt1973 wrote: »
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    For me the problem with the whole Series 4/5 stuff is that those cards are generally *very* powerful. They kind of have to be in order for you to spend your tokens on them.

    Making the transition up from Series 2 to Series 3 is rough. The current Series 4/5 system doubles down on that.

    Its unfortunate timing for a lot of the people that started at the open release. Just as you were getting enough series 3 cards to go toe to toe with the sharks prowling from pre-release they give those sharks bigger teeth.

    Sure some of them are very good. Many of them are not. It's just like all pools. There are many series 3 cards that are probably more powerful than any 4/5 cards, and I would say most of the best cards are series 2/3 cards honestly. This is hard to say definitively because something like Darkhawk is not replaceable at all, so in some decks he is the best card and you cannot play the deck without him, but that's...one very specific deck, but if all you want to do is play Darkhawk.dec then yeah, that's a bummer.

    In some kind of alternate universe where the moment you get into pool 3 you can instantly add ten cards to your collection of any pool, I'm going to guess almost all of those are pool 3 cards.

    It's just annoying when you see certain decks that you have no chance to play right now. Darkhawk deck...nope. Bast deck...nope. Shuri deck...nope. Galactus deck...nope. It's not like Hearthstone where you have 30 or 40 cards so you can miss out on a card and even then you can create it usually quickly. Here it's either random or wait for ummmm 5700 tokens as I currently have 300.

    There is no deck that NEEDS Bast. A negative deck will still be super powerful without it. This game has so many viable deck archetypes, I could understand if you needed one of those four cards to compete and ladder, but you don't. You can play a lot of decks, and even if you can't build the "optimal" meta version there are lots and lots of swaps that are probably equivalently good or are just different, not worse.

    Most swaps for a missing pool 3 card are explicit downgrades, and that leaves out the ones that basically define an archetype. "No you're supposed to retreat a lot" and "everyone should have a different collection" have papered over it to some extent, but at some point people will begin to realise "wait, I have to work twice as hard for not even the same result because I don't have..." and they'll bounce. "Intentionally distinct collections between players" only works if a given collection is on average as strong as any other, and Adam Warlock says hi; that doesn't work with random acquisition + varying card strength.

    I do not understand the Adam Warlock point you're making here. If you're trying to say "he's only good with Bast" then he's a very bad card in that deck. Sort any win% and he's in the bottom 3 except for when played, where he's bottom 5. Most of the cards above him are...series 3 cards. So like, he's not only good with Bast. He's just not good at all ever, and he definitely doesn't define an archetype.

    Let's look at another deck, Sera Surfer, arguably one of the best decks in the game. Don't have Brood (the highest when played win rate card in the deck)? Your worst case scenario swap is Storm, who loses 8.5% win rate and goes all the way down to a measly 58% win rate when played. Obviously, you need Sera and Surfer, and there are not replacements for those. So find the deck that you do have the core, build around component for, and build THAT. You can make swaps with very minor reductions in your overall win rate. You'll note too this is why I didn't recommend Maximus for @MNC Dover If you don't have Maximus, you can put in literally Captain America and only lose a few points of win rate.

    "Hat I don't have any pool 3 cards." Okay, you have Devil Dinosaur. The win rate for inclusion in the deck goes from 66% to 60% and the only pool 3 card in the top 12 is Nick Fury, who everyone got for free.

    If your pool 3 unlocks have been some combination of Quake, Ronan, Mordo, Yellowjacket, Crystal, Dagger, Black Bolt, Adam Warlock, Miles, Jane Foster, and nothing else, then I'm sorry. I feel for you. Use your tokens to get a Sera or something. But realistically, your cards are not why you cannot win. The delta between a substitution is just not that big. What you need is the one or two core cards, and then make it work with what you have to fill it out. And if you don't have the core cards, play Devil Dino.

    My pool 3 unlocks until very recently were worse than that actually. :p Absolutely epic.

    I'm purely (as said by ObiFett) commenting that "yeah you can swap, but it's not an equivalent piece". There needs to be a way other than "twiddle thumbs" to fix this, simply; maybe it's all fine if everyone's got a mostly complete pool 3 to work with, and I have a feeling that's the case. But if you've got 5-10 pool 3 cards, you could have anything from "actual workhorses" to "a giant pile of useless shit", and literally not be able to make anything but a budget/semi-functional pool 2+ deck.

    Can you still win? Sure, totally. Can you still ladder? Yep, sure. Is it harder for you than it is for someone who didn't get the shitty cards first? Also yes. That's pure feels-bad, because while "a good deck" is definitely something you want to work towards, there's just... No way to do so. If you're stuck running dino/moon girl at CL 1100 because all you've got is like, Hazmat and shit, "just keep running it" isn't satisfying to play when someone's dropping Leader, Doom, Aero on you every third game. Token gain is painfully slow if you're not pool 3-complete, and the shop just can't handle "the basics of pool 3"; it's for "I want" not "I need".

    Surfer actually helps, because most of a Surfer deck isn't pool 3 I think, but fuck, swapping Maximus for something else is huge, like. And I don't think "have to buy the pass to be usefully competitive" is what anyone wants.

    Obviously they are not equivalent pieces, because they'd have to be literally the same card that way. What I mean is that this is something that you can swap and the deck will still have nearly the exact same win rate as it did before.

    What I'm trying to say is that this game is more like making tacos than baking a cake. If you don't have eggs, flour, etc you're not making a cake (don't @ me with your weird eggless flourless cakes) without a grocery store run. If you don't have ground beef for your tacos, you can go grab literally any other protein out of the fridge.

    It is more important to know how to cook than it is to have the best ingredients all the time.

    Yeah, but if a single card swap is a 6% win rate differential, then while both players are making tacos, one has to make their own tortillas first.

    I realise fresh homemade tortillas are better, but you know what I mean, dammit.

    I think this actually exactly makes my point. It is better to be better, than it is to just have everything you need.

  • MNC DoverMNC Dover Full-time Voice Actor Kirkland, WARegistered User regular
    Hey, stop quoting that or remove my "@" in the body. :P

    Need a voice actor? Hire me at bengrayVO.com
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  • DelduwathDelduwath Registered User regular
    Comparing it to cooking seems like a really forced analogy.

    It’s more like the Mario kart version of Texas hold ‘em.
    What's the blue shell? Is it Leader?

  • ChaosHatChaosHat Hop, hop, hop, HA! Trick of the lightRegistered User regular
    edited January 2023
    Comparing it to cooking seems like a really forced analogy.

    It’s more like the Mario kart version of Texas hold ‘em.

    Eh, then they'll just say "It's like playing texas hold 'em but if your opponent had all face cards in their deck and you just had off suit chaff." I mean, you play the person, not the cards either way.

    I don't disagree, but the point is that having the tip top tools is not as important as knowing what to do with them.
    Delduwath wrote: »
    Comparing it to cooking seems like a really forced analogy.

    It’s more like the Mario kart version of Texas hold ‘em.
    What's the blue shell? Is it Leader?

    You actually already have to be winning to Leader someone effectively. So it's like a Blue Shell you can fire from first place to decimate the hopes and dreams of your opponents.

    I just played the same opponent two games in a row, and won both on a turn 1 Yondu destroying Zabu for an instant retreat.

    ChaosHat on
  • MNC DoverMNC Dover Full-time Voice Actor Kirkland, WARegistered User regular
    Blue Shell - Leader
    Red Shell - Aero
    Triple Red Shell - Dr. Doom
    Lightning Bolt - Leech
    Green Shell - Lizard
    Triple Green Shell - Mysterio
    Banana - Korg
    Triple Banana - Debrii
    Bob-omb - Galactus
    Bullet Bill - Devil Dino
    Golden Mushroom - Angela
    Mushroom - The Collector
    Triple Mushroom - Bishop
    Blooper - Daredevil
    Fireflower - Killmonger
    Star - Armor
    Boomerang Flower - Falcon
    Feather - Nightcrawler
    Piranha Plant - Groot
    Boo - Rogue
    Super Horn - Juggernaut
    Crazy 8 - Thanos
    Coin - Quicksilver

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    Munkus BeaverDoctor DetroitAbsurdProposition
  • ChaosHatChaosHat Hop, hop, hop, HA! Trick of the lightRegistered User regular
    edited January 2023
    Scorpion has to be the green shell right? Maybe Leech is the triple green? Also I think the Mushrooms should be Sera and Electro. They speed you up!

    Boo Rogue is fucking inspired though, as are the bananas.

    Just played what might be the worst player of all time. He Cosmos my Bucky lane. Armors my Hood lane. He then Leeches on my Wave turn, and then snaps.

    Dude. If you weren't confident in the other direct counters I don't know why you're confident enough to snap now.

    ChaosHat on
    MNC Dover
  • ObiFettObiFett Use the Force As You WishRegistered User regular
    I just cant even right now

    Someone tell me the odds of not drawing Patriot 6 games in a row. All games went to turn 6.

  • discriderdiscrider Registered User regular
    Mysterio is the fake ? block

    MNC Dover
  • I needed anime to post.I needed anime to post. boom Registered User regular
    ObiFett wrote: »
    I just cant even right now

    Someone tell me the odds of not drawing Patriot 6 games in a row. All games went to turn 6.

    like 5. maybe 8.

    ObiFettCrippl3
  • MNC DoverMNC Dover Full-time Voice Actor Kirkland, WARegistered User regular
    Not bad suggestions. I went with Lizard because he's green and common, but Scorpion couldn't certainly swap in there. Triple Green Shells is Mephisto because he's 3 green things. :D

    Mushrooms to speed you up in MK, so maybe a ramp metaphor is better. My mind was stuck in the mainline games where Mushrooms = bigger Mario (thus the scaling characters). As for Leech as Lightning Bolt, he fucks over all the cards or in this case the other racers.

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  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver You don't have to attend every argument you are invited to. Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    Golden mushroom would be moon girl.

    In general I think that cards that give you more cards would be the accelerators.

    And the blue shell is whatever bullshit just beat my ass (but specifically Leader, because he only works when you’re behind and he wins the game)

    Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
  • I needed anime to post.I needed anime to post. boom Registered User regular
    weirdly in both mario kart and marvel snap jessica jones is jessica jones

    MNC DoverDoctor Detroit
  • dporowskidporowski Registered User regular
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    Comparing it to cooking seems like a really forced analogy.

    It’s more like the Mario kart version of Texas hold ‘em.

    Eh, then they'll just say "It's like playing texas hold 'em but if your opponent had all face cards in their deck and you just had off suit chaff." I mean, you play the person, not the cards either way.

    I don't disagree, but the point is that having the tip top tools is not as important as knowing what to do with them.

    I think we're speaking orthogonally. You're saying "player actions are more important to climbing than exact deck composition" and yes, I'd say so. No disagreement there, I mean watch how many people Jubilee into an existing Cosmo and get confused when nothing happens.

    My point is that the combination of "all collections intentionally unique/incomplete", "cards within set have varying quality/power level" and "players are head to head with said decks in a ladder environment" means that you're going to have scenarios where Bob just has a harder time laddering than Sue, because he pulled Hazmat, Wasp, Rockslide where she pulled Death, Wave, Aero. That doesn't feel good, even if it's not an impassable barrier. (And Bob is playing against Sues all the time, so can see this.)

    I think in large part the problem goes away once you're mostly through pool 3, or at least far enough to have averaged out the cache luck, but it's there prior for sure, and I think more painful.

  • LeperMessiahLeperMessiah Registered User regular
    I know RNGs can be weird but 4 out of 7 games Savage Land on left and not a single featured location of Eternity Ridge. Not the only weird thing as far as RNG I have seen lately, this morning I had captain Marvel in the shop and then the first box I open had her as well.

  • Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    I tried Wave in my Patriot deck and was losing a lot, decided to try Lockjaw and this is perfect; drop Squirrels or Rocks and then swap out those cards for hopefully a +points card or a neutral one to stack the points on. Feels a lot better and more tricky to see coming, and Lockjaw breaks Deaths Domain as the card you were gonna swap just gets sacrificed for the replacement, works a charm if you get lucky and put him there first

  • Doctor DetroitDoctor Detroit Registered User regular
    Hit 1k tokens. Bought pinned Mystique.

    Lockjaw/Wong/Sera are probably the top 3 I’m missing from Pool 3.

    MNC Doverlwt1973
  • CoinageCoinage Heaviside LayerRegistered User regular
    I should be brave and snap turn 3 because of the power of Oscorp and they skipped 1 and 2. Wave Doom Leader is so good, I am a genius
    rvk7gT0h.jpg
    Oh no

    MNC Dover
  • ChaosHatChaosHat Hop, hop, hop, HA! Trick of the lightRegistered User regular
    Some credence to the leaked patch notes being authentic:

    esq1epab4pmn.png

  • Doctor DetroitDoctor Detroit Registered User regular
    ObiFett wrote: »
    MNC Dover wrote: »
    Absorbing Man in my shop just now. I really want him, but at 3k tokens, that's a hard pass. One day...

    I just pulled him from a cache. What should I be doing with him?

    I dunno. Absorb stuff?

  • Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    edited January 2023
    Hmm maybe a good leader change would be he copies half power (or maybe just 0 power) versions of the cards?

    Local H Jay on
  • ObiFettObiFett Use the Force As You WishRegistered User regular
    He should copy just power, no abilities

    akjak
  • ChaosHatChaosHat Hop, hop, hop, HA! Trick of the lightRegistered User regular
    edited January 2023
    I would like to see him changed to a 5 cost and given the Magik clause.

    Just played against a Patriot player, we have Mindscape so we switch hands. He passes me a hand with Super Skrull, so I'm like cool, let's do that since I Leadered him on 5 due to the Elysium. So what he does to stop this is Carnage his Mystique and Patriot, ensuring he loses the game. So...good job you sure showed me.

    ChaosHat on
  • LeperMessiahLeperMessiah Registered User regular
    MNC Dover wrote: »
    Oh here's the thread.

    I am playing an incredibly apt deck I made called "steal yo shit"

    Well, it's currently called "Steal Mo Shit" after I made some changes but wanted to keep my old decklist in case anything went wrong.

    It got me to plat easy, and part of it was knowing EXACTLY what kind of cards my opponent was playing I had the perfect shit to counter it. It especially gets crazy when I have a copy of their card on the field and in my hand and I know they have exactly one move left to do.

    The amount of people who straight up don't realize that I have their own shit is frankly hilarious

    It’s a thread rule to post any Infinite deck lists and crazy homebrews.

    # (1) Agent 13
    # (1) Mantis
    # (1) Nightcrawler
    # (1) Uatu the Watcher
    # (2) The Collector
    # (2) Cable
    # (2) Sentinel
    # (3) Morph
    # (4) Enchantress
    # (4) Moon Girl
    # (4) White Queen
    # (5) Devil Dinosaur

    The deck fills your hand and the field with cards. Is your opponent playing a discard deck? Hold morph til turn 5 and copy their apoc.

    Uatu is there to scout and bait. Enchantress absolutely hoses ongoing decks when you know they wanna play onslaught (which you will have a good idea if they are holding and planning to play it via white queen). Cable and Mantis help you determine what their overall strategy is and how to hose it.

    The big power plays are collector on t2 and DD/Moon Girl in general. If you play Moon girl on turn six make sure you play sentinel first so your hand is filled to the brim.

    This is a fun deck that works quite well overall, the only change I made was to replace Uatu with Daredevil. Similar feel to the deck overall but not a dead draw after turn 2.

  • ChaosHatChaosHat Hop, hop, hop, HA! Trick of the lightRegistered User regular
    edited January 2023
    I played The Hood to Eternity Range. Oh no you played Armor, now I can't destroy them. Gosh darn it.

    EXCEPT THIS IS A FUCKING VALKYRIE DECK GET WRECKED.

    Seriously the most out of left field card.

    I just won a game where I turn 1 played Ant-Man to a space throne at the second location. Why? BECAUSE OF VALKYRIE.

    ChaosHat on
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