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Posts

  • initiatefailureinitiatefailure Registered User regular
    edited January 2023
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    Some credence to the leaked patch notes being authentic:

    esq1epab4pmn.png

    as someone that has both leadered and been leadered while playing a lot of deathwave last season... cards that frustrate players are fine actually? you're not supposed to just win all the time because you had big donkier 6s that you could cheat out through a stax piece

    edit: also I have been messing around with this
    2n9irg0m2z7n.jpeg

    It's doing pretty well so far. I wanted to see if omega could be good enough lol. my early thoughts are that he can be, but the payoff isn't even really that much on the other lanes.

    initiatefailure on
  • milskimilski Poyo! Registered User regular
    I played that Omega Zabu list some, although I don't have Luke Cage so Typhoid Mary is much higher risk. I personally found Jubilee to be extremely bad and Omega Red to be very hard to make work, but playing Enchantress and White Queen as substitutions works alright to just throw out a lot of stats.

    As far as Leader goes, the issue I have is that he's too simple as a tech card while being too punishing to a too wide variety of decks. The solution to "vomit out a bunch of stats T6" being "there's a T6 card that just gives you all the stats your opponent plays +4" is kind of silly, and it incidentally punishes almost every archetype except the heavily synergistic decks that buff specific on-board threats. Other tech cards can be extremely powerful and easily win the game, but they aren't generically useful; Leader is the equivalent of if Enchantress had "reveals last, turn off all Ongoing abilities" or Shang-Chi had "destroy the opponent's highest power card anywhere on the board", and yeah, Leader is priced higher to justify being more broadly useful, but maybe the anti-vomit-stats card could be cheaper and more targeted in some fashion.

    I ate an engineer
    BloodySlothChaosHat
  • discriderdiscrider Registered User regular
    Omega is good for go wide if you Onslaught him basically.
    Otherwise it's more an opposite Mojo where you get punished if you don't play here, so you use him to open up other locations for Prof X, etc

  • Doctor DetroitDoctor Detroit Registered User regular
    Yeah, Leader can whiff. I’ve played him and lost. I’ve had him played against me and won.

    It feels like any significant change will just kill the card, or make it incredibly niche.

  • ChaosHatChaosHat Hop, hop, hop, HA! Trick of the lightRegistered User regular
    Zabu turn 3 into Shuri Absorbing Man on 4. Jessica Jones on 5.

    Valkyrie on 6.
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    Some credence to the leaked patch notes being authentic:

    esq1epab4pmn.png

    as someone that has both leadered and been leadered while playing a lot of deathwave last season... cards that frustrate players are fine actually? you're not supposed to just win all the time because you had big donkier 6s that you could cheat out through a stax piece

    edit: also I have been messing around with this
    2n9irg0m2z7n.jpeg

    I think Leader and Leech are vital and necessary checks on things like Deathwave and other decks that just dump value on 6. They're important to make sure playing the early game is important, and we're all not just playing the greediest fucking slow roll decks.

    Having said that, a few things. One, Leech already does this job pretty fucking well, but he does it in a way where you're really trading turn 5 for it because he adds such little power to the board. Leader doesn't really have that issue, he's adding your power to the board also. You can also draw into something on 6 after being Leeched.

    I also really dislike how little counterplay there is for Leader. So, if you're playing Patriot and you suspect Enchantress, you can play Invisible Woman. You can spread Patriot and Mystique to separate locations, which does lower your top end because you can't Onslaught, but it's better than being blown out, or you can play the odds game and go for it. You see this with basically every other control card. How can I mitigate Shang-Chi, or Cosmo, etc.

    With Leader that doesn't exist for the decks he's good into. If they're winning a lane and within Leader's power range of another, they just win. You can't make them have it, you can rarely force them to make a mistake on it. He's not a brainless play as a lot of people say, but it's not a super challenging one either. He's just unfun on both ends, he's not rewarding to play with or lose to.

    Finally, Leader doesn't have any real synergies. You cannot look at a game state on turn 5 and be like "ah they definitely do/don't have Leader." Literally any deck can run him and it's not an indefensible choice unless you're clogging up your own board consistently. Even the decks that obviously are running Leader do not have to modify their play in a way that tells you they have Leader in hand the same way you can see how a Patriot deck change it's play for Doom or Ultron, or a Zola deck change it's deployment if it has Zola or not.

    Other ideas that restrict him to a lane so he'd have to guess (or maybe copy the things played in NOT this lane, so he gets 2/3?) or maybe the first card played would feel a lot fairer. Maybe he needs the Infinaut treatment so you can gamble to get in under him. In those scenarios I could even see giving him more power to compensate for the ability to now play around him.

    BloodySloth
  • Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    The number of times leader whiffs is usually down to them trying to copy an onslaught in a Patriot deck which is one of the few strong counters as Onslaught on his own isn't doing the heavy lifting there, he's just to boost up the effects of Patriot+Blue Marvel. In almost every other scenario leader can sweep a board final round unless they really goof up and like, don't have space for the copies or whatever.

    Personally I find Wong more annoying but I get why these cards are here, they're fun... I just want them too lol

  • I needed anime to post.I needed anime to post. boom Registered User regular
    Yeah one thing that is an issue with tech cards like Leader is that they are universal. It's not like a card game where you have faction or colour requirements and you can go "Well, this is how Red decks answer big fatty type guys, but if you're a Purple deck what your counterplay should be is shang chi" or whatever. So they wind up being on what can feel like a razor thin line where they cross over from being tech plays for certain decks to universal plays. Has Leader reached that point? Hell if I know, I'm not a dev. I don't have access to that data. But if they're nerfing him there's clearly a concern that he's approaching that point and that particular counterplay method doesn't quite work for the game

  • ChaosHatChaosHat Hop, hop, hop, HA! Trick of the lightRegistered User regular
    The number of times leader whiffs is usually down to them trying to copy an onslaught in a Patriot deck which is one of the few strong counters as Onslaught on his own isn't doing the heavy lifting there, he's just to boost up the effects of Patriot+Blue Marvel. In almost every other scenario leader can sweep a board final round unless they really goof up and like, don't have space for the copies or whatever.

    Personally I find Wong more annoying but I get why these cards are here, they're fun... I just want them too lol

    Yeah sometimes people are dumb as fuck and they copy my Patriot Mystique turn 6, or Surfer turn, or something that breaks parity and was obviously on the table and they just turned off their brain and said "I'M UP LEADER IS A LOCK LOL HIT SNAP GG!"

    But maybe we shouldn't balance the game based on people turning off their brain and being dumb. I think Leader hates on specific strategies too hard with basically no deckbuilding cost and minimal effort to do so.

  • AbsurdPropositionAbsurdProposition Registered User regular
    My idea for a change to Leader is for his text to say:

    "On reveal: Make a copy at this location of every card the opponent played this turn"

    People would then have to plan ahead of time to get as much value from leader as possible, by deliberately leaving a lane empty, which also telegraphs him as a play for the opponent.

    discrider
  • discriderdiscrider Registered User regular
    As death/wave, I do like throwing garbage down first to clog up Leader's board before playing Death and Shulk, or going Death/Shulk + Shang-chi without priority.
    But yeah, retreating to random losing deck because maybe Leader sucks.

  • milskimilski Poyo! Registered User regular
    Playing a move deck for shits and giggles and I get an opener of Kraven, Dr. Strange, Cloak into Bar Sinister.

    Why yes, I will snap T1.

    I ate an engineer
  • KetarKetar Come on upstairs we're having a partyRegistered User regular
    That feeling when your opponent flips Leader and your Wong and Hazmat are revealed.

    So good.

    Zombie Gandhi
  • milskimilski Poyo! Registered User regular
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    Zabu turn 3 into Shuri Absorbing Man on 4. Jessica Jones on 5.

    Valkyrie on 6.
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    Some credence to the leaked patch notes being authentic:

    esq1epab4pmn.png

    as someone that has both leadered and been leadered while playing a lot of deathwave last season... cards that frustrate players are fine actually? you're not supposed to just win all the time because you had big donkier 6s that you could cheat out through a stax piece

    edit: also I have been messing around with this
    2n9irg0m2z7n.jpeg

    I think Leader and Leech are vital and necessary checks on things like Deathwave and other decks that just dump value on 6. They're important to make sure playing the early game is important, and we're all not just playing the greediest fucking slow roll decks.

    Having said that, a few things. One, Leech already does this job pretty fucking well, but he does it in a way where you're really trading turn 5 for it because he adds such little power to the board. Leader doesn't really have that issue, he's adding your power to the board also. You can also draw into something on 6 after being Leeched.

    I also really dislike how little counterplay there is for Leader. So, if you're playing Patriot and you suspect Enchantress, you can play Invisible Woman. You can spread Patriot and Mystique to separate locations, which does lower your top end because you can't Onslaught, but it's better than being blown out, or you can play the odds game and go for it. You see this with basically every other control card. How can I mitigate Shang-Chi, or Cosmo, etc.

    With Leader that doesn't exist for the decks he's good into. If they're winning a lane and within Leader's power range of another, they just win. You can't make them have it, you can rarely force them to make a mistake on it. He's not a brainless play as a lot of people say, but it's not a super challenging one either. He's just unfun on both ends, he's not rewarding to play with or lose to.

    Finally, Leader doesn't have any real synergies. You cannot look at a game state on turn 5 and be like "ah they definitely do/don't have Leader." Literally any deck can run him and it's not an indefensible choice unless you're clogging up your own board consistently. Even the decks that obviously are running Leader do not have to modify their play in a way that tells you they have Leader in hand the same way you can see how a Patriot deck change it's play for Doom or Ultron, or a Zola deck change it's deployment if it has Zola or not.

    Other ideas that restrict him to a lane so he'd have to guess (or maybe copy the things played in NOT this lane, so he gets 2/3?) or maybe the first card played would feel a lot fairer. Maybe he needs the Infinaut treatment so you can gamble to get in under him. In those scenarios I could even see giving him more power to compensate for the ability to now play around him.

    The other thing about Leech/Leader is that they cover each other's weaknesses extremely well. Leech loses to decks that play out early or that play big fatties with limited upside or even downside while destroying synergy pieces with poor stats, while Leader loses to decks that play out early or use synergy pieces while punishing playing big fatties. The net result is that even if it isn't necessarily good, a deck that's goal is simply to play very high stats early and Leech + Leader late ceases to be something that punishes specific forms of greedy piles and instead simply becomes a very frustrating form of proactive gameplan with universally decent matchups that also really, really, really brutalized any meta with Death or She Hulk

    I ate an engineer
  • akjakakjak Thera Spooky GymRegistered User regular
    I GOT COULSON FROM A RESERVE SUCK IT TOKEN SHOP

    Switch: SW-4133-1546-2720 (Thera)
    Twitch: akThera
    Steam: Thera
    MNC Dover
  • discriderdiscrider Registered User regular
    Climbing through 30 with the On Reveal Ongoing Patriot deck
    # (0) Wasp
    # (1) Misty Knight
    # (2) Mysterio
    # (3) Ironheart
    # (3) Patriot
    # (3) Lockjaw
    # (3) Storm
    # (4) Wong
    # (5) White Tiger
    # (5) Blue Marvel
    # (6) Doctor Doom
    # (6) Onslaught
    #
    eyJDYXJkcyI6W3siQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiUGF0cmlvdCJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiTWlzdHlLbmlnaHQifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6IkRyRG9vbSJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiV2hpdGVUaWdlciJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiV2FzcCJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiTG9ja2phdyJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiSXJvbmhlYXJ0In0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJXb25nIn0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJTdG9ybSJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiT25zbGF1Z2h0In0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJCbHVlTWFydmVsIn0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJNeXN0ZXJpbyJ9XX0=
    #
    # To use this deck, copy it to your clipboard and paste it from the deck editing menu in Snap.

    Just had a Taj/Onslaughts citadel game.
    Pop quiz, hot shot!

    MNC Dover
  • Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    This felt big brain, could have played my dino but I felt like if I dumped the 2x mojo's and filled the lanes I could take it and so I went for it
    dwnbhgopag3y.png

    MNC Dover
  • AldoAldo Hippo Hooray Registered User regular
    I started playing yesterday and I'm rapidly going up the ranks to some point where I'm no longer just winning from kids. One thing I'm unclear about: how are tie-breaks resolved? I couldn't figure it out from the last two I forced.

    Also: early decks are weird, just a lot of very situational cards without the cards to actually force the required situation.

  • discriderdiscrider Registered User regular
    Ties are broken based on who has the most power, or rather who is most in the lead at the non-tied locations.

    Doctor Detroit
  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    Aldo wrote: »
    I started playing yesterday and I'm rapidly going up the ranks to some point where I'm no longer just winning from kids. One thing I'm unclear about: how are tie-breaks resolved? I couldn't figure it out from the last two I forced.

    Also: early decks are weird, just a lot of very situational cards without the cards to actually force the required situation.

    Total power everywhere resolves tiebreaks. It is possible but rare to actually fully tie as well.

    Nod. Get treat. PSN: Quippish
    Doctor Detroit
  • JohnGriffinJohnGriffin MinnesotaRegistered User regular
    edited January 2023
    Aldo wrote: »
    I started playing yesterday and I'm rapidly going up the ranks to some point where I'm no longer just winning from kids. One thing I'm unclear about: how are tie-breaks resolved? I couldn't figure it out from the last two I forced.

    Also: early decks are weird, just a lot of very situational cards without the cards to actually force the required situation.

    Whoever has the most power total wins.

    If this isn't satisfied it goes to a true tie, which is a required fist bump spider man pointing emoji moment.

    JohnGriffin on
  • milskimilski Poyo! Registered User regular
    It's whoever is winning the lane they are winning by more, Bar with No Name makes the statement its just about total power not fully accurate.

    I ate an engineer
    DevoutlyApatheticdiscriderJohnGriffinInquisitor77MNC DoverMunkus Beaver
  • discriderdiscrider Registered User regular
    edited January 2023
    Also, playing a game against a bot at level 39.
    Play four rocks.
    Expect to lose game against a bot.
    Do not lose the game against a bot.
    Wild.

    I played three rocks into machine world, so maybe I knocked out it's script.

    discrider on
  • AldoAldo Hippo Hooray Registered User regular
    Oh gosh, that is a bit obscure and hard to plan around. Thanks for explaining.

  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    Aldo wrote: »
    Oh gosh, that is a bit obscure and hard to plan around. Thanks for explaining.

    Yeah for me it's easier to just conceptualize it as the winner is whoever has the biggest difference between the two non-tied locations. "Total power" is flat-out wrong in some cases.

  • ChaosHatChaosHat Hop, hop, hop, HA! Trick of the lightRegistered User regular
    Man I keep thinking about a Valkyrie Negative deck but I'm just not certain if it's better to go Surfing with it. I feel like not surfing is a potentially more unexpected play pattern and more likely to catch people off guard.

    Valkyrie just does a good job of removing the negat-I mean downsides of Mister Negative. I just have magical Christmas land dreams of a turn 5 Iron Man followed up by a negative Psylocke in another lane and a Valkyrie in the Iron Man lane. Or you can Psylocke into Negative in the same lane, your opponent mentally writes that lane off as an easy win: SURPRISE IT'S VALKYRIE.

    I feel like if I'm not surfing the deck would really benefit from Magik because I think the density of high cost cards would make for tough turns. A non surfer build probably wants to run Blue Marvel, Iron Man, White Tiger, and Valkyrie and that's a lot at the top end.

  • DarkewolfeDarkewolfe Registered User regular
    ObiFett wrote: »
    He should copy just power, no abilities

    No I really love when my opponent copies my destroyer.

    What is this I don't even.
  • MNC DoverMNC Dover Full-time Voice Actor Kirkland, WARegistered User regular
    Opened Mojo this morning. Another solid, non-build around card.

    Need a voice actor? Hire me at bengrayVO.com
    Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
    Switch ID: MNC Dover SW-1154-3107-1051
    Steam ID
    Twitch Page
  • Doctor DetroitDoctor Detroit Registered User regular
    Mojo can be sneaky good on Bar Sinister.

    MNC DoverExtreaminatus
  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver You don't have to attend every argument you are invited to. Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    milski wrote: »
    It's whoever is winning the lane they are winning by more, Bar with No Name makes the statement its just about total power not fully accurate.

    Yeah, me and an opponent both got shocked by THAT one once.

    Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
  • KetarKetar Come on upstairs we're having a partyRegistered User regular
    Leader is in the shop for me and I have 1,000 tokens for the first time in quite a while as of yesterday.

    *insert Captain America No I don't think I will img here*

  • ChaosHatChaosHat Hop, hop, hop, HA! Trick of the lightRegistered User regular
    Ketar wrote: »
    Leader is in the shop for me and I have 1,000 tokens for the first time in quite a while as of yesterday.

    *insert Captain America No I don't think I will img here*

    I definitely wouldn't buy him until we know the scope of his rework.

    Doctor DetroitMNC Dover
  • akjakakjak Thera Spooky GymRegistered User regular
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    Man I keep thinking about a Valkyrie Negative deck but I'm just not certain if it's better to go Surfing with it. I feel like not surfing is a potentially more unexpected play pattern and more likely to catch people off guard.

    Valkyrie just does a good job of removing the negat-I mean downsides of Mister Negative. I just have magical Christmas land dreams of a turn 5 Iron Man followed up by a negative Psylocke in another lane and a Valkyrie in the Iron Man lane. Or you can Psylocke into Negative in the same lane, your opponent mentally writes that lane off as an easy win: SURPRISE IT'S VALKYRIE.

    I feel like if I'm not surfing the deck would really benefit from Magik because I think the density of high cost cards would make for tough turns. A non surfer build probably wants to run Blue Marvel, Iron Man, White Tiger, and Valkyrie and that's a lot at the top end.

    This is far and away the best Nega Surfer deck I’ve tried. Very resilient on draws, lots of outs, and lots of power potential. Doesn’t fall flat on its face if you don’t draw Mr Negative.

    The original had Rogue instead of Wolfsbane, but too often I found her a dead card with no targets.
    # (2) Psylocke
    # (3) Ironheart
    # (3) Mystique
    # (3) Silver Surfer
    # (3) Gambit
    # (3) Wolfsbane
    # (3) Brood
    # (3) Zabu
    # (4) Mister Negative
    # (4) Wong
    # (5) Magik
    # (5) Sera
    #
    eyJDYXJkcyI6W3siQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiUHN5bG9ja2UifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6Iklyb25oZWFydCJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiTXlzdGlxdWUifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6IlNpbHZlclN1cmZlciJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiR2FtYml0In0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJXb2xmc2JhbmUifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6IkJyb29kIn0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJaYWJ1In0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJNck5lZ2F0aXZlIn0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJXb25nIn0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJNYWdpayJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiU2VyYSJ9XX0=
    #
    # To use this deck, copy it to your clipboard and paste it from the deck editing menu in Snap.

    Switch: SW-4133-1546-2720 (Thera)
    Twitch: akThera
    Steam: Thera
  • KetarKetar Come on upstairs we're having a partyRegistered User regular
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    Ketar wrote: »
    Leader is in the shop for me and I have 1,000 tokens for the first time in quite a while as of yesterday.

    *insert Captain America No I don't think I will img here*

    I definitely wouldn't buy him until we know the scope of his rework.

    I wouldn't be buying him even if there was absolutely no reworking expected.

    akjakMagell
  • Vann DirasVann Diras Registered User regular
    Oof keep being indecisive about pinning a card and let brood slip by, feeling remorse now

  • Doctor DetroitDoctor Detroit Registered User regular
    Damn, somebody just Magneto’d my Patriot away from Onslaught. I still won, but it cost me progress on BOTH “Win with 4 cards” AND “Win with 20+ power”.

    Local H Jay
  • Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    Magneto and Aero seem to backfire as often as they steal a win

  • The JudgeThe Judge The Terwilliger CurvesRegistered User regular
    akjak wrote: »
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    Man I keep thinking about a Valkyrie Negative deck but I'm just not certain if it's better to go Surfing with it. I feel like not surfing is a potentially more unexpected play pattern and more likely to catch people off guard.

    Valkyrie just does a good job of removing the negat-I mean downsides of Mister Negative. I just have magical Christmas land dreams of a turn 5 Iron Man followed up by a negative Psylocke in another lane and a Valkyrie in the Iron Man lane. Or you can Psylocke into Negative in the same lane, your opponent mentally writes that lane off as an easy win: SURPRISE IT'S VALKYRIE.

    I feel like if I'm not surfing the deck would really benefit from Magik because I think the density of high cost cards would make for tough turns. A non surfer build probably wants to run Blue Marvel, Iron Man, White Tiger, and Valkyrie and that's a lot at the top end.

    This is far and away the best Nega Surfer deck I’ve tried. Very resilient on draws, lots of outs, and lots of power potential. Doesn’t fall flat on its face if you don’t draw Mr Negative.

    The original had Rogue instead of Wolfsbane, but too often I found her a dead card with no targets.
    # (2) Psylocke
    # (3) Ironheart
    # (3) Mystique
    # (3) Silver Surfer
    # (3) Gambit
    # (3) Wolfsbane
    # (3) Brood
    # (3) Zabu
    # (4) Mister Negative
    # (4) Wong
    # (5) Magik
    # (5) Sera
    #
    eyJDYXJkcyI6W3siQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiUHN5bG9ja2UifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6Iklyb25oZWFydCJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiTXlzdGlxdWUifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6IlNpbHZlclN1cmZlciJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiR2FtYml0In0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJXb2xmc2JhbmUifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6IkJyb29kIn0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJaYWJ1In0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJNck5lZ2F0aXZlIn0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJXb25nIn0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJNYWdpayJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiU2VyYSJ9XX0=
    #
    # To use this deck, copy it to your clipboard and paste it from the deck editing menu in Snap.

    First time out with this deck proved the following equation:

    Zabu + Magik on 5 + Wong/Mystique together on 6 + Gambit there on 7 = uncontrollable urge to make finger guns/PEW PEW PEW PEW noises

    Last pint: Turmoil CDA / Barley Brown's - Untappd: TheJudge_PDX
    akjak
  • CoinageCoinage Heaviside LayerRegistered User regular
    nda2axwl77aa1.jpg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=23ad3b2db22c83b189801f1179ff6a1799e35474
    I am going to become the Joker

    SeGaTaiakjakMNC DoverMagell
  • Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    I'm actually fine with it, with the stipulation that they put bad luck protection in so you can't go on extended 200 streaks. But, with my experience in destiny, they rarely if ever do that so, booooo

    Magell
  • CoinageCoinage Heaviside LayerRegistered User regular
    He also said there's bad luck protection. It's purely trying to trick your dumb brain.

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