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Penny Arcade - Comic - Low And Slow

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Low And Slow!

Penny Arcade - Comic - Low And Slow

Videogaming-related online strip by Mike Krahulik and Jerry Holkins. Includes news and commentary.

Read the full story here

Andy Joe

Posts

  • garhentgarhent Registered User regular
    Context of the non-troversy:
    [Pocket Gamer:] Implementing monetisation earlier in the process and conversation is certainly an angle that has seen pushback from some developers.

    Riccitiello: Ferrari and some of the other high-end car manufacturers still use clay and carving knives. It’s a very small portion of the gaming industry that works that way, and some of these people are my favourite people in the world to fight with – they’re the most beautiful and pure, brilliant people. They’re also some of the biggest fucking idiots.

    I’ve been in the gaming industry longer than most anybody — getting to the grey hair and all that. It used to be the case that developers would throw their game over the wall to the publicist and sales force with literally no interaction beforehand. That model is baked into the philosophy of a lot of artforms and medium, and it’s one I am deeply respectful of; I know their dedication and care.

    But this industry divides people between those who still hold to that philosophy and those who massively embrace how to figure out what makes a successful product.

    JR is talking about game developers who don't change their business model to match the times. At my time at EA, he was pushing DLC and new IP. We got a number of new franchises from JR as he rightly realized that EA had to make new IP or it would die rather than pushing out big sports game 20## every year. If you want engagement, putting out DLC and new content on a game keeps people coming back. Opening up games to modding helps as well.

  • RatherDashing89RatherDashing89 Registered User regular
    edited July 2022
    Dozens of quality games with absolutely no monetazation come out every year. Many of them make truckloads of money for their developers, even when said developers make new content for absolutely free.

    In his nonapology he said that by idiots, he meant the small minority of people who created because they want to create something instead of to make as much money as possible in whatever way possible.

    Yes, if your end result must have predatory monetazation, than it is smarter for you to plan that from the beginning. But you can also, just, not to that. And if you're planning on not doing that, than you don't have to take that into account at the start of the development cycle or at any point.

    Since his job was essentially to buy other people's artistic vision and then order them to hamfist monetazation into it, yeah it would have been more convenient for him if they had planned on that from the beginning.

    RatherDashing89 on
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  • DjiemDjiem Registered User regular
    edited July 2022
    My favorite business model is "Make good game"

    *cough* Elden Ring *cough*

    Djiem on
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  • dennisdennis aka bingley Registered User regular
    edited July 2022
    Dozens of quality games with absolutely no monetazation come out every year. Many of them make truckloads of money for their developers, even when said developers make new content for absolutely free.

    In his nonapology he said that by idiots, he meant the small minority of people who created because they want to create something instead of to make as much money as possible I'm whatever way possible.

    Yes, if your end result must have predatory monetazation, than it is smarter for you to plan that from the beginning. But you can also, just, not to that. And if you're planning on not doing that, than you don't have to take that into account at the start of the development cycle or at any point.

    Since his job was essentially to buy other people's artistic vision and then order them to hamfist monetazation into it, yeah it would have been more convenient for him if they had planned on that from the beginning.

    Yeah, you're basically looking at Stardew Valley vs Madden NFL _ITERATION_. To this guy, the SV creator is an idiot. To the rest of us, the SV creator is a successful artist. And operating in Riccitiello's sphere, you could say that's a valid - if impoverished - worldview.

    dennis on
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  • TofystedethTofystedeth Registered User regular
    That's literally the comparison I was thinking of.
    I have a friend who plays the Madden games. I don't think he gets every year, but he probably gets at least every other year. And he enjoys them, but he also spends a ton of time complaining about, especially with regards to monetization and weak iteration. He's certainly never spoken of any recent version as highly as he does SDV.

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  • RatherDashing89RatherDashing89 Registered User regular
    Stardew Valley must have some sort of mindworms involved with its success, because that's the example I had in mind when I posted, too. Terraria is another good example on the "gives stuff away for free and makes all the money" front.

    Man in the Mists
  • dennisdennis aka bingley Registered User regular
    edited July 2022
    Stardew Valley must have some sort of mindworms involved with its success, because that's the example I had in mind when I posted, too. Terraria is another good example on the "gives stuff away for free and makes all the money" front.

    I feel like it comes down to joy as well. You can just feel that those games were made with joy and made to produce joy. I just can't see the same generally describing the AAA cash cows. Yes, they can be entertaining, and even fun. But joy? I'm just not sure it's involved in any part of the process.

    dennis on
    Djiem
  • TofystedethTofystedeth Registered User regular
    Stardew Valley must have some sort of mindworms involved with its success, because that's the example I had in mind when I posted, too. Terraria is another good example on the "gives stuff away for free and makes all the money" front.

    It's kind of the ur example of single developer passion project that gets huge success. It was first announced back when Steam greenlight was a thing and got a ton of follows, and then when it finally came out years later it sold something like 1.5 million copies within the first couple of years. All of which went to that single developer.

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    Man in the MistsDjiemH3Knuckles
  • Man in the MistsMan in the Mists Registered User regular
    It was so successful that developer is now making another game, The Haunted Chocolatier.

    https://youtu.be/kJy7LF789lo

    dennisAndy JoeTofystedethQuidH3KnucklesAegeri
  • dennisdennis aka bingley Registered User regular
    I came across this headline about how Jordan Peele's latest movie Nope hopes to make $50M in it's first weekend and it made me think of the parallels between this topic and the movie business. Peele seems to be more along the lines of ConcernedApe (the makder of Stardew Valley), making stories because he has a vision and wants to see it executed. It's not just a product to him but actual art. They're lower budget movies that make less money (though still highly profitable). This is compared to some "Movie In Production" that might change directors four or five times. The person executing it is somewhat irrelevant. It's a Movie Product that has to be made, and the people who make it are less relevant. It's more about getting the movie out so you can get all the merchandising in place as well.

    TofystedethDjiem
  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    I mean sports games are designed by their nature to have paid dlc and incremental updates. Like I enjoy MLB the show, but I dont' expect it to not be a baseball game every year. I think all kinds of gaming can exist without one being like bankrupt because you don't like sports games.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    pleasepaypreacher.net
    H3Knuckles
  • DjiemDjiem Registered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    I mean sports games are designed by their nature to have paid dlc and incremental updates. Like I enjoy MLB the show, but I dont' expect it to not be a baseball game every year. I think all kinds of gaming can exist without one being like bankrupt because you don't like sports games.

    Similarly, people like the creator of Stardew Valley aren't "fucking idiots" because they wanted to make a game rather than wanting to make money.

    Man in the MistsdennisYoungFreyH3KnucklesMoridin889Aegeri
  • KalTorakKalTorak One way or another, they all end up in the Undercity.Registered User regular
    Djiem wrote: »
    My favorite business model is "Make good game"

    *cough* Elden Ring *cough*

    but think how much better Elden Ring could be if every time you tried to kill Malenia you had to either wait five minutes or pay a dollar

  • dennisdennis aka bingley Registered User regular
    edited July 2022
    The one bit of context I was missing (I should have google searched) until Jerry's post is that John Riccitello is the CEO of Unity. Jesus wept. As if I already had enough reasons as a developer to hate using Unity.

    (Also, it suddenly makes more sense that even though our company has made zero income in the last couple of years, Unity started making us pay for Unity based on us having taken a PPP loan to avoid firing everyone/folding. They counted that as "income" that triggered having to pay for licenses. With this absolute piece of shit at the wheel, that's the behavior I would expect.)

    dennis on
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  • QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    It was so successful that developer is now making another game, The Haunted Chocolatier.

    https://youtu.be/kJy7LF789lo

    Something that is far, far more likely to get my money and time than whatever IP EA is going to crank out since I am so utterly, utterly tired of companies trying to min max every single cent they can obtain from me with shitty practices.

    If the goal is to maximize profits then yeah, he's right. If the goal is to make an actually good game then "monetization" is the worst way to ensure that happens and is not at all required to make a good profit.

    DjiemMan in the Mists
  • jwalkjwalk Registered User regular
    the one interaction I had with him left such a dirty rotten taste in my mouth that I felt the need to login here after like 8 years just to say, as a former employee/minion/slave, EAT A BAG OF DIRTY DICKS John Riccitiello!!

    dennisDjiemRingoMan in the Mists
  • MatriasMatrias Registered User regular
    edited July 2022
    Perceptions are funny, Unity had a lot of grass root good feels attatched to it over the years but in actuality it is a lot closer to what people perceive Epic as (and vice versa is true too - Epic is good to Devs).

    Anyways does Tycho's attached post seem like a subtle dig at Robert Khoo to anyone else?

    Matrias on
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  • H3KnucklesH3Knuckles But we decide which is right and which is an illusion.Registered User regular
    edited July 2022
    @Matrias I don't think it's talking about Khoo. If it's about anyone in particular, I think it's talking about the website service that they accidentally sold the site to once upon a time. The business that Lowtax got flak from other site creators for agreeing to try to improve the reputation of? The leaked logs of internal communications in which the owner and one of the other employees talked shit about Jerry & Mike were something else.

    *looks up name* eFront, that's it.

    H3Knuckles on
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  • LttlefootLttlefoot Registered User regular
    Marketing wants to be more involved in the product and earlier on. But I remember 20 years ago devs complain that marketing was already too involved. Someone said “with any other product, you make it and tell marketing to figure out how to sell it. With games, marketing tells you what to make”. (I don’t know if the comment about other products is still true). There used to be a space on the form that said “what is your game like (Quake, Simcity, etc.)”

  • DjiemDjiem Registered User regular
    KalTorak wrote: »
    Djiem wrote: »
    My favorite business model is "Make good game"

    *cough* Elden Ring *cough*

    but think how much better Elden Ring could be if every time you tried to kill Malenia you had to either wait five minutes or pay a dollar

    Why isn't there Torrent Armor for $5 that has no gameplay effect in this single-player game?

    dennisH3Knuckles
  • MercadeMercade Registered User regular
    The eFront ICQ logs, damn. That brings me back.

    Switch: SW-1909-0466-9585
    H3Knuckles
  • OverkillengineOverkillengine Registered User regular
    dennis wrote: »
    The one bit of context I was missing (I should have google searched) until Jerry's post is that John Riccitello is the CEO of Unity. Jesus wept. As if I already had enough reasons as a developer to hate using Unity.

    (Also, it suddenly makes more sense that even though our company has made zero income in the last couple of years, Unity started making us pay for Unity based on us having taken a PPP loan to avoid firing everyone/folding. They counted that as "income" that triggered having to pay for licenses. With this absolute piece of shit at the wheel, that's the behavior I would expect.)

    I know from a customer POV I groan when I see Unity because it's either a situation where the devs figured out that the engine is going to have limitations and optimized their game to stay well within them...or an absolute shitshow that may not be completely fixed no matter how many rounds of optimization patches they put out..
    H3Knuckles wrote: »
    @Matrias I don't think it's talking about Khoo. If it's about anyone in particular, I think it's talking about the website service that they accidentally sold the site to once upon a time. The business that Lowtax got flak from other site creators for agreeing to try to improve the reputation of? The leaked logs of internal communications in which the owner and one of the other employees talked shit about Jerry & Mike were something else.

    *looks up name* eFront, that's it.

    Man even reading the detached description of that makes regular SEO/marketing seem like a bastion of morality in a business sector that is not exactly on the up and up by default.


  • islingtonislington Registered User regular
    dennis wrote: »
    The one bit of context I was missing (I should have google searched) until Jerry's post is that John Riccitello is the CEO of Unity. Jesus wept. As if I already had enough reasons as a developer to hate using Unity.

    (Also, it suddenly makes more sense that even though our company has made zero income in the last couple of years, Unity started making us pay for Unity based on us having taken a PPP loan to avoid firing everyone/folding. They counted that as "income" that triggered having to pay for licenses. With this absolute piece of shit at the wheel, that's the behavior I would expect.)

    What I'd like to see is this guy looking at the balance sheet of Coffee Stain, they must be like some sort of mythical beast to his world view. Its a real shame too, because we need more competition in the engine/ platform space, everyone going to unreal 6 is not going to be healthy for the world of gaming in the long term, despite how pretty it might be in the short term.

  • dennisdennis aka bingley Registered User regular
    islington wrote: »
    dennis wrote: »
    The one bit of context I was missing (I should have google searched) until Jerry's post is that John Riccitello is the CEO of Unity. Jesus wept. As if I already had enough reasons as a developer to hate using Unity.

    (Also, it suddenly makes more sense that even though our company has made zero income in the last couple of years, Unity started making us pay for Unity based on us having taken a PPP loan to avoid firing everyone/folding. They counted that as "income" that triggered having to pay for licenses. With this absolute piece of shit at the wheel, that's the behavior I would expect.)

    What I'd like to see is this guy looking at the balance sheet of Coffee Stain, they must be like some sort of mythical beast to his world view. Its a real shame too, because we need more competition in the engine/ platform space, everyone going to unreal 6 is not going to be healthy for the world of gaming in the long term, despite how pretty it might be in the short term.

    If we could, I'd like our company to go to UE. It has nothing to do with being pretty. It has everything to do with Unity being a bit shit, and their developers lacking in the ability to realize it's a bit shit. Because they never actually make anything significant with it. They just make Unity and example projects.

  • LttlefootLttlefoot Registered User regular
    Is unity the reason that battletech (2018) runs so slow on my 2021 pc?

    I’m thinking of trying the Godot engine if I cant get into UE

    V1m
  • TofystedethTofystedeth Registered User regular
    It definitely ran slow on my old computer but I didn't have any issues on my new computer from 2020ish.
    It was eye opening how much faster it animated. All the stuff I thought was just lumbering robots and dramatic slow mo missiles was just it not being able to keep up.

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