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[Destiny 2] Wizards of the Ghost

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    PeenPeen Registered User regular
    Here's the thing though, people don't really talk about this but in almost everything in Destiny, you can use what you want and be successful and you should. Destiny's got a huge toolbox of guns and builds and people get really meta poisoned by content creators and groupthink and honestly I think it's bad for the game. I change which guns I use constantly because it keeps the game interesting, and that includes raiding every week. Sure you need specific things to burn a boss down but that's one of of three guns, go nuts, have fun, experiment, blow some stuff up. I glaived my way through Crota's End on Tuesday and it was a ball.

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    StupidStupid Newcastle, NSWRegistered User regular
    edited December 2023
    Kamar wrote: »
    Question. When something like Parting the Veil tells me to be 1770 but then the screen when I die to the boss says I should be 1800, is that last one right and I was just let in lower or is it just an artifact of the way higher difficulty content works? I was looking at two threads for that boss I struggled with so long yesterday. One is everyone agreeing it's ludicrously hard and makes the Legend Campaign final boss fight in that arena seem easy by contrast, the other is a wall of git gud, 30 second fight, with a top upvoted comment denying that the fight is +30 with a downvoted person pointing out that it was an 1800 boss in a 1770 recommended mission. So now I'm curious if I'm bad or undergeared or...
    For me: I had to abandon the Legend difficulty campaign for the final two missions. It was literally impossible for me at my skill level. Not power level, I just couldn't do it at any power. Lightfall (and Neomuna as a whole actually) are a complete miss for me because it's not "fun" content. Yeah I get that people find the old patrols mind-numbingly boring, but I'm not playing this game to prove my prowess as a video game god - I'm playing a game for entertainment. And getting squished like a bug on a windshield that I didn't even see coming is not entertaining.

    Anyway....

    I was able to finish it off later when those two missions came up in the Weekly rotation I would queue for the "Legendary" (not to be confused with "Legend", which is a different thing!) mission and get it done with the help of two randos (who are almost always better than me). It was still a slog even at that. Note this required the use of out-of-game LFG tools, but no mic was needed. It was a bit of bait-and-switch because people likely thought they were queuing for the weekly mission, when in fact they were not.

    Witherhoard is your friend in that final mission though. Be ammo stingy and save it for the boss. Pop him with a hit, then run away until the reticle stops flashing red. Rinse and repeat. Use a SMG for the redbar adds, and a Machinegun for the Tormetors. Slot a special ammo finder to keep Witherhoard fed. I finished it solo in the "Classic" (i.e. easy) difficulty so fast I was actually surprised it was over. Of course that was after some number of hours bashing my head against the harder difficulty wall, so my opinion was likely coloured by that.

    Stupid on

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    Forever ZefiroForever Zefiro cloaked in the midnight glory of an event horizonRegistered User regular
    Kinda surprised there’s no talk about it besides the initial trailer. The new dungeon was pretty fun! Figured out most of it blind. There were a couple things that were not intuitive.

    I enjoyed the theme and exploring. Curious how it feels on additional runs

    2fbg9lin3kdl.jpg
    XBL - Foreverender | 3DS FC - 1418 6696 1012 | Steam ID | LoL
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    PeenPeen Registered User regular
    It was very good, nothing too hard or tedious, very cool vibes, good variety in the encounters, I enjoyed it very much. I'm not sure the loot is enough to bring me back over and over but I'll definitely run it more than one.

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    AspectVoidAspectVoid Registered User regular
    The new Dungeon.

    The bad: The puzzle after the first boss bugged on my group in such a way we thought it was part of the solution and we wasted probably an hour and a half trying to get it to work before resorting to looking up how to do it and finding out it bugged out on us. The final boss felt bad to me until we hit a point about an hour into our attempt at it where things just sort of clicked and I was able to see what the encounter wanted us to do and the thing stopped feeling like a dragged out slog. It feels really light on lore outside of the opening and ending, though there are a bunch of blocked of sections, so there could be a lot there we just didn't get to see in our first run.

    The good: I loved the artistic design of it. The first two boss fights were fun. The traversal between areas was an absolute blast. The difficulty over all felt really good to me. I really appreciate how it encourages you to switch up your builds because different encounters have different design philosophies.

    PSN|AspectVoid
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    Forever ZefiroForever Zefiro cloaked in the midnight glory of an event horizonRegistered User regular
    Peen wrote: »
    It was very good, nothing too hard or tedious, very cool vibes, good variety in the encounters, I enjoyed it very much. I'm not sure the loot is enough to bring me back over and over but I'll definitely run it more than one.

    Unfortunately I only got like a hundred bows, and a shirt. Definitely want to get that new special ammo sidearm, as well as the exotic.

    2fbg9lin3kdl.jpg
    XBL - Foreverender | 3DS FC - 1418 6696 1012 | Steam ID | LoL
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    PeenPeen Registered User regular
    Yeah I got arms, a helmet, and one rocket sidearm with an absolutely terrible roll (shoutout to Loose Change for being the latest perk I get really, really mad when I see).

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    JayKaosJayKaos Registered User regular
    Lore definitely felt very light, feel like I had no idea what if any stakes there were. I got the bond though and it's literally a bunch of glowsticks so I'm happy with it. Loved the design for the boss too

    Steam | SW-0844-0908-6004 and my Switch code
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    OwenashiOwenashi Registered User regular
    JayKaos wrote: »
    Lore definitely felt very light, feel like I had no idea what if any stakes there were. I got the bond though and it's literally a bunch of glowsticks so I'm happy with it. Loved the design for the boss too

    I'm feeling like more lore will be added as more parts of the castle opens up.

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    AspectVoidAspectVoid Registered User regular
    Owenashi wrote: »
    JayKaos wrote: »
    Lore definitely felt very light, feel like I had no idea what if any stakes there were. I got the bond though and it's literally a bunch of glowsticks so I'm happy with it. Loved the design for the boss too

    I'm feeling like more lore will be added as more parts of the castle opens up.

    I'm really hoping we get more lore for the area itself. We really only have lore for the Warlords from their interactions with the Iron Lords, and I'd love to get more on them and the Dark Age.

    PSN|AspectVoid
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    shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    JayKaos wrote: »
    Lore definitely felt very light, feel like I had no idea what if any stakes there were. I got the bond though and it's literally a bunch of glowsticks so I'm happy with it. Loved the design for the boss too

    Yeah, that was my main complaint too. I liked the overall look and gameplay and such but there's zero story here. Which is weird because the previous dungeons have all been pretty good about having something.

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    Forever ZefiroForever Zefiro cloaked in the midnight glory of an event horizonRegistered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    JayKaos wrote: »
    Lore definitely felt very light, feel like I had no idea what if any stakes there were. I got the bond though and it's literally a bunch of glowsticks so I'm happy with it. Loved the design for the boss too

    Yeah, that was my main complaint too. I liked the overall look and gameplay and such but there's zero story here. Which is weird because the previous dungeons have all been pretty good about having something.

    There isn’t zero story, though yes the first run through is pretty light

    On subsequent runs you get more lore as you can dispel the locks on those doors and collect the bones

    2fbg9lin3kdl.jpg
    XBL - Foreverender | 3DS FC - 1418 6696 1012 | Steam ID | LoL
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    PeenPeen Registered User regular
    New Iron Banner mode is kind of a mess. You really need your team to be working together to cover a bank and cover each other so you can actually get crests banked and so far some people get it and most people really don't so most matches start slow and then snowball in one direction or the other. I love Supremacy but I wish this was normal Supremacy, not whatever this is, but maybe it'll get better once people actually know how it works.

    I did enjoy watching streamers on my lunch break yesterday confidently assert that the mode was trash 30 minutes after it launched, there's no hot take like a Destiny hot take and nobody hates things that are more complicated than "click head lol" more than the Destiny PvP community.

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    ArteenArteen Adept ValeRegistered User regular
    I mostly just shoot people and forget about the objective for most of the match.

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    DacDac Registered User regular
    https://www.ign.com/articles/bungie-devs-say-atmosphere-is-soul-crushing-amid-layoffs-cuts-and-fear-of-total-sony-takeover

    In case you were wondering how things are going over at Bungie.

    It's bad.
    Along with the recent layoffs, this has resulted in a massive decay in morale within the company, according to IGN’s sources, one of whom told us that the mood within the studio has been “soul-crushing” over the last month. And it doesn’t sound like management is making any significant efforts toward improving the atmosphere, either. According to those still with the company, employee frustration and sadness in the days and weeks following the layoffs was met with a surprising amount of indifference or even outright flippancy or hostility from management. Several people we spoke to told us that leaders had reiterated, across multiple meetings, that they couldn’t guarantee there wouldn’t be more layoffs, with two specifically recalling chief people officer Holly Barbacovi outright stating that layoffs were a “lever” the company would pull again.
    Others said they were rebuffed repeatedly and discouraged from even discussing the layoffs whenever they tried to ask questions. Employees in one department recalled a post-layoffs Q&A session where a department head was asked if leadership taking salary cuts to prevent layoffs had been considered, only to respond that Bungie was “not that type of company.”
    Former and current QA department members at Bungie tell us that in the last year, the team has seen increasing workloads and responsibilities, with more and more disciplinary actions taken for seemingly minor infractions. They also perceive growing hostility from team and company leadership, including a meeting in which QA was said to be referred to by leaders as “non-developers.” In total, sources tell us that over 10% of Bungie’s internal QA department was either fired or laid off between early October and early November, including both the reported layoffs and the departures leading up to them.
    "I’m angry. I’m upset. This isn’t what I came here to do,” one person said. “It feels like many higher ups aren’t listening to the data and are like, ‘We just need to win our fans back, they still like us.’ No. They don’t...We got rid of some of our most knowledgeable beloved folks who have been here for 20+ years. Everyday I walk in afraid that I or my friends are next. No one is safe."

    This is a fraction of what's in the article.

    Steam: catseye543
    PSN: ShogunGunshow
    Origin: ShogunGunshow
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    Zombie GandhiZombie Gandhi Registered User regular
    It is crazy to me how much of my impression of Bungie as a studio shifted in the past 6 months or so.

    Like I really thought better of them.

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    DacDac Registered User regular
    What's been made clear is that, while Bungie as a whole seems decent, the management is the classic example of a corporate parasitic organism.

    Steam: catseye543
    PSN: ShogunGunshow
    Origin: ShogunGunshow
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    SyphonBlueSyphonBlue The studying beaver That beaver sure loves studying!Registered User regular
    Dac wrote: »
    https://www.ign.com/articles/bungie-devs-say-atmosphere-is-soul-crushing-amid-layoffs-cuts-and-fear-of-total-sony-takeover

    In case you were wondering how things are going over at Bungie.

    It's bad.
    Along with the recent layoffs, this has resulted in a massive decay in morale within the company, according to IGN’s sources, one of whom told us that the mood within the studio has been “soul-crushing” over the last month. And it doesn’t sound like management is making any significant efforts toward improving the atmosphere, either. According to those still with the company, employee frustration and sadness in the days and weeks following the layoffs was met with a surprising amount of indifference or even outright flippancy or hostility from management. Several people we spoke to told us that leaders had reiterated, across multiple meetings, that they couldn’t guarantee there wouldn’t be more layoffs, with two specifically recalling chief people officer Holly Barbacovi outright stating that layoffs were a “lever” the company would pull again.
    Others said they were rebuffed repeatedly and discouraged from even discussing the layoffs whenever they tried to ask questions. Employees in one department recalled a post-layoffs Q&A session where a department head was asked if leadership taking salary cuts to prevent layoffs had been considered, only to respond that Bungie was “not that type of company.”
    Former and current QA department members at Bungie tell us that in the last year, the team has seen increasing workloads and responsibilities, with more and more disciplinary actions taken for seemingly minor infractions. They also perceive growing hostility from team and company leadership, including a meeting in which QA was said to be referred to by leaders as “non-developers.” In total, sources tell us that over 10% of Bungie’s internal QA department was either fired or laid off between early October and early November, including both the reported layoffs and the departures leading up to them.
    "I’m angry. I’m upset. This isn’t what I came here to do,” one person said. “It feels like many higher ups aren’t listening to the data and are like, ‘We just need to win our fans back, they still like us.’ No. They don’t...We got rid of some of our most knowledgeable beloved folks who have been here for 20+ years. Everyday I walk in afraid that I or my friends are next. No one is safe."

    This is a fraction of what's in the article.

    I hope everyone in the room immediately and spontaneously erupted in raised middle fingers

    LxX6eco.jpg
    PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
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    The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    My decision to uninstall D2 after the lay offs continues to feel good.

    Stick that in your metrics and suck on it, Bungie management

    Ideas hate it when you anthropomorphize them
    Steam: https://steamcommunity.com/id/TheZombiePenguin
    Stream: https://www.twitch.tv/thezombiepenguin/
    Switch: 0293 6817 9891
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    StupidStupid Newcastle, NSWRegistered User regular
    Thing is, they only look at one metric: dollars. They could have baseline zero player engagement and if they are turning a profit from a handful of whales, they consider it a "success".

    I mean, it IS a business, so looking at profitability and cashflow does factor into how you do things, but I've worked for companies where the bottom line on the quarterly report becomes the single most important driving factor on how things are run, and I can attest, that shit ain't fun. The company I was working for lost a solid 1/3 of it's workforce to "retirement" and people leaving for a public works position. You can be sure that when working for a City Council is more attractive than Consulting, something is F-ed up, mate!

    We'll see how many people voluntarily leave before this is over.


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    StupidStupid Newcastle, NSWRegistered User regular
    This just in: Destiny 2 players are idiots.


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    DacDac Registered User regular
    My decision to uninstall D2 after the lay offs continues to feel good.

    Stick that in your metrics and suck on it, Bungie management

    How bad do you have to be at your job for your players to be voicing that they'd actually prefer it if Sony took over the mess?

    My mind keeps going back to that apparently 200 million dollar office they built that now stands virtually empty because oops turns out they didn't grow as expected. Just... Wow, the amount of money that can just evaporate in this industry.

    Steam: catseye543
    PSN: ShogunGunshow
    Origin: ShogunGunshow
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    DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    I doubt they're paradise but I don't recall hearing horror stories from most Sony studios stuff.

    It feels inevitable because I have zero idea who Marathon is actually for. They're almost a decade late to the battle royale game and it isn't a genre where they can really push the strong atmosphere/setting stuff that sets Destiny apart. They'll have solid gun play but that isn't a rare thing in that genre.

    Nod. Get treat. PSN: Quippish
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    PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    I thought marathon was an extraction shooter? Which only has like one real success in tarkov and maybe cod's arcadey dmz? And plenty of failures everywhere else.

    Leadership saying they wouldn't cut their salary over laying more people off would have me doing my resume

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    pleasepaypreacher.net
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    DacDac Registered User regular
    Marathon is supposed to be an extraction shooter, yeah. Presumably adjusted to be more casual-friendly, because 'successful' extraction shooters have so far been punishing - but that's also, I've been told at least, part of their appeal. But even the largest successes have been modest. It's niche.

    This is a hard sell to start, but apparently Bungie also recently brought several Tarkov streamers in to playtest a proof-of-concept build of Marathon. It reportedly didn't go well, and when prompted with the question of if any of them would play Marathon when it was released, no one present raised their hand.

    Now, you can argue that this isn't representative of potential reception, and that it's still very early, and if they *are* trying to make it more casual then of course Tarkov streamers wouldn't like it, etc. etc.. But it wasn't reassuring news for Bungie, who has had to put on hold/cancel other planned projects already, with Marathon supposed to be the basket they're dumping their eggs into.

    Steam: catseye543
    PSN: ShogunGunshow
    Origin: ShogunGunshow
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    Crippl3Crippl3 oh noRegistered User regular
    edited December 2023
    Dac wrote: »
    Marathon is supposed to be an extraction shooter, yeah. Presumably adjusted to be more casual-friendly, because 'successful' extraction shooters have so far been punishing - but that's also, I've been told at least, part of their appeal. But even the largest successes have been modest. It's niche.

    This is a hard sell to start, but apparently Bungie also recently brought several Tarkov streamers in to playtest a proof-of-concept build of Marathon. It reportedly didn't go well, and when prompted with the question of if any of them would play Marathon when it was released, no one present raised their hand.

    Now, you can argue that this isn't representative of potential reception, and that it's still very early, and if they *are* trying to make it more casual then of course Tarkov streamers wouldn't like it, etc. etc.. But it wasn't reassuring news for Bungie, who has had to put on hold/cancel other planned projects already, with Marathon supposed to be the basket they're dumping their eggs into.

    that Marathon streamer anecdote has been passed around and misinterpreted a bunch
    they asked if the game came out tomorrow if they'd play it, as in the early unfinished test build they saw and played. Not that they would play it when it came out, specifically if they would play what they had just playtested again.

    https://www.windowscentral.com/gaming/destiny-2-streamer-says-bungie-held-a-marathon-gameplay-summit-for-tarkov-players-but-nobody-was-interested
    UPDATE: A second, trusted content creator source who also attended the summit said that nobody raised their hand because Marathon was in a pre-alpha state, and that Bungie emphasized that the game was still "years" away.
    UPDATE (November 1, 2023): A trusted content creator source who wished to remain anonymous, and who also attended the summit, reached out to offer us an alternative view of events. They suggested that Bungie was clear that the gameplay experience was a pre-alpha state, and that Marathon was still "years away." The point of the event in their take was specifically to get feedback and help shape the future of the game.

    Crippl3 on
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    DacDac Registered User regular
    Fair enough.

    Steam: catseye543
    PSN: ShogunGunshow
    Origin: ShogunGunshow
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    DiarmuidDiarmuid Amazing Meatball Registered User regular
    Still, they've probably put a couple of years work into Marathon at this point.

    To have that land with a thud can't be encouraging.

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    OptyOpty Registered User regular
    edited December 2023
    Dac wrote: »
    My decision to uninstall D2 after the lay offs continues to feel good.

    Stick that in your metrics and suck on it, Bungie management

    How bad do you have to be at your job for your players to be voicing that they'd actually prefer it if Sony took over the mess?

    My mind keeps going back to that apparently 200 million dollar office they built that now stands virtually empty because oops turns out they didn't grow as expected. Just... Wow, the amount of money that can just evaporate in this industry.

    What I've seen people say is that it's empty more because they pivoted to allowing out-of-state remote work and then doubled down on it while the new HQ was being built. Basically it's empty because they didn't force everyone back to the office after the pandemic "ended" and I don't doubt Bungie folks in those remote states are wondering if that's going to happen eventually based on how their management is described as behaving in that article.

    Opty on
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    CatalaseCatalase Registered User regular
    Diarmuid wrote: »
    Still, they've probably put a couple of years work into Marathon at this point.

    To have that land with a thud can't be encouraging.
    Ignoring it's niche genre aside, years of neglecting Destiny PVP have not engendered alot of goodwill towards their next PVP endeavor from their existing fanbase.

    To say nothing of the fact that it's the same game engine, and therefore susceptible to the same cheat engines plaguing D2 that they've handily not done anything about.

    "Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination."
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    shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Catalase wrote: »
    Diarmuid wrote: »
    Still, they've probably put a couple of years work into Marathon at this point.

    To have that land with a thud can't be encouraging.
    Ignoring it's niche genre aside, years of neglecting Destiny PVP have not engendered alot of goodwill towards their next PVP endeavor from their existing fanbase.

    To say nothing of the fact that it's the same game engine, and therefore susceptible to the same cheat engines plaguing D2 that they've handily not done anything about.

    I think they've done what they can. One of the good things Bungie has been doing is actually using the legal system to go after these cheaters and people sending death threats and shit.

    The problem is almost certainly not a lack of will. It's that it's a genuinely difficult task that maybe isn't even fully doable.

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    shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited December 2023
    Dac wrote: »
    What's been made clear is that, while Bungie as a whole seems decent, the management is the classic example of a corporate parasitic organism.

    Eh. I think there's obviously some classic greed issues with management here but far outstripping that is just plain old bad management. Bungie's problems and this game's problems are looking more and more with every new piece of information we get like just shitty management. Bad decisions, bad culture, dumb bosses.

    Like, if you look at everything going on with this game, every thing they've said, every bit of information we've gotten or can infer and put together, imo it paints a fairly clear picture of what's wrong with the company right now: they made plans for big expansions in their product line (multiple games and multimedia projects) and offices and all that and they banked all of that expansion on the revenue of the only game they really have out there. And then they continuously underfunded that game's development for years and years. They needed Destiny 2 to prop the company up and they couldn't even bother to actually spend the money on making it function as well as it could or give it the time it needed to polish things up. The underlying message of basically all the Destiny Dev Team communication about why this or that thing isn't happening is "because we don't have the money or manpower to do it along with everything else we were doing, so we had to make cuts somewhere".


    My less well supported take is that a lot of Bungie, especially the old guard types and upper management, got bored of making Destiny years ago and so have not valued it's development. Even though it's literally what's propping the entire company up.

    shryke on
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    KamarKamar Registered User regular
    edited December 2023
    It's such a dumb thing, too, players notice when their successful game is cutting corners and expecting revenue to stay the same as the company chases its next big thing. Priming your fanbase to hate your next product isn't good business.

    Kamar on
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    shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    They didn't even cut open the goose to get all the golden eggs at once. They just stopped feeding it.

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    DacDac Registered User regular
    Kamar wrote: »
    It's such a dumb thing, too, players notice when their successful game is cutting corners and expecting revenue to stay the same as the company chases its next big thing. Priming your fanbase to hate your next product isn't good business.

    Them crying pauperism for why they couldn't do x or y basic features for any other live service was extra galling when juxtaposed against it being the most expensive expansion yet on top of a bevy of shitty monetization.

    Steam: catseye543
    PSN: ShogunGunshow
    Origin: ShogunGunshow
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    CatalaseCatalase Registered User regular
    edited December 2023
    I don’t know how the regional Destiny community accounts are handled (eg DestinyBR or DestinyANZ) but watching multiple streams today that they had set up to promote the dungeon in my region were kinda shocking. If I were in charge of that I’d be hoping nobody was looking too closely

    They had emblems given to the streamers to raffle to viewers as incentive to tune in. The 4 I saw given out went to 3 mods and a VIP.

    At one point two different streamers I had up stopped to remark on it and one even stopped mid dungeon to private message the winner and have a laugh about “oh which streamer did you pick up the emblem from THIS TIME lol” in game since they’re all friends with each other in their little nepotism groups.

    What makes it worse is it happens every season when a new emblem comes out to “win”. You see the same names win out of dozens of people over and over somehow

    Catalase on
    "Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination."
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    OptyOpty Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Catalase wrote: »
    Diarmuid wrote: »
    Still, they've probably put a couple of years work into Marathon at this point.

    To have that land with a thud can't be encouraging.
    Ignoring it's niche genre aside, years of neglecting Destiny PVP have not engendered alot of goodwill towards their next PVP endeavor from their existing fanbase.

    To say nothing of the fact that it's the same game engine, and therefore susceptible to the same cheat engines plaguing D2 that they've handily not done anything about.

    I think they've done what they can. One of the good things Bungie has been doing is actually using the legal system to go after these cheaters and people sending death threats and shit.

    The problem is almost certainly not a lack of will. It's that it's a genuinely difficult task that maybe isn't even fully doable.

    Unfortunately according to that article they laid off their lawyer who was in charge of that stuff, so there's probably a lack of will there now too

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    Knight_Knight_ Dead Dead Dead Registered User regular
    this dungeon is fuckin' hard as hell to solo. i'm having a worse time than i did in ghosts even. just a lot of enemies and a lot of nightmarish nonsense that can kill you and long dps setup phases.

    the second boss being a taken ogre means you're in physics hell for the entire duration and there's so, so many adds that never stop spawning and it's just extremely dangerous.

    aeNqQM9.jpg
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    DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    Very impressed that Bungie manages to muck up the seasonal matchmaking in new and frustrating ways each season.

    Nod. Get treat. PSN: Quippish
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    DiarmuidDiarmuid Amazing Meatball Registered User regular
    Most of the Coil runs I've done have ended with me on my own in the middle of a level three boss fight. These normally don't end well.

    I've had one run where everyone got through to the end.

    I admire their attempts to try something different, but this path they've been on since, I guess, Season of the Deep doesn't really work for match made activities.

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