When I was considering possibilities for unlockable abilities and progression items, I realized something: given how huge BotW's map is, it would be intensely frustrating to come across a world element that you can't interact with yet. Don't have the bombs yet? Too bad, you can't do anything with that cracked wall. Hopefully you don't run out of map markers before you find the bombs, or can otherwise remember which twenty spots on the map you saw a good spot for a bomb! Same for any other gating mechanic I could think of. I think it's a core strength of BotW that, aside from combat stats, nothing locks you out of anything you may discover, only your knowledge of what's required of you. For this specific scope of game, it's better to avoid forcing backtracking, I feel.
It seems like it should be possible to build on this.
Suppose there's a basic set of tools capable of accessing all the game offers. This basic access could mean having to overcome more or more difficult challenges.
Now also suppose there are several other tools to be found that have different functions in combat and physics, which allow alternate solutions that skip or minimize some of these challenges. Add some signposting to hint at or tell of their existence, then let players do as they will.
Crude examples:
- Solve a challenging puzzle to open a gate, or bypass the gate.
- Solve a timed puzzle, or solve the same puzzle without the time limit.
- Fight a troublesome opponent as-is, or counter their most troubling ability.
- Fight a group of opponents as-is, or conveniently neutralize some.
I reason not every challenge would need an alternate approach via these extra tools, just enough to make them feel worth it.
I mean, I'm expecting Tears to be very much More BotW, and that's okay. It's the direct sequel, they're allowed to stick with it.
I'm just hoping after Tears the next Zelda is more of a classic thing, because I like the classic Zelda loop a lot more than the open world thing and there are not actually a lot of competent Zelda-likes being released.
Breath of the Wild rules and if Nintendo decided to backtrack because of a vocal minority who wanted Zelda to be the same forever it would be a tragedy and games would be worse off for it.
Eh. There are things BOTW does better than previous Zelda games, and things that it does worse. There would be nothing wrong with taking a step back in some areas while still trying to move forward in others.
This is where I disagree. What areas should they compromise? Any parts of the game that certain people want reverted or revamped were changed with intent, and are part of the holistic design. I reject the idea that there is inherent value in regression. There needs to be a reason to step backwards beyond just "people liked it before".
You're operating on an assumption that all change is progressive, and therefore rolling back any change is regressive. But if somebody put square wheels on a bike, it wouldn't be regressive to suggest they go back to round wheels.
It's cool if you think BOTW was perfect the way it was, but that doesn't change the fact that some of its changes to the formula were not for the better. And this idea that they shouldn't look back at what the old games got right because that's the past and we gotta move forward is frankly ridiculous.
The fact that you can't have more than 5 people talk about BOTW at length without somebody bringing up their disappointment in a lack of feeling of progression, a complaint that's pretty unique to BOTW, clearly shows that some aspects of Zelda got fucked up in the transition to open world.
I don't like Skyward Sword because I am a big wuss and the spirit realm is too stressful.
Thinking about replaying that game fills me with dread.
And yet I loved Metroid Dread so I dunno what my problem is.
Breath of the Wild rules and if Nintendo decided to backtrack because of a vocal minority who wanted Zelda to be the same forever it would be a tragedy and games would be worse off for it.
Eh. There are things BOTW does better than previous Zelda games, and things that it does worse. There would be nothing wrong with taking a step back in some areas while still trying to move forward in others.
This is where I disagree. What areas should they compromise? Any parts of the game that certain people want reverted or revamped were changed with intent, and are part of the holistic design. I reject the idea that there is inherent value in regression. There needs to be a reason to step backwards beyond just "people liked it before".
You're operating on an assumption that all change is progressive, and therefore rolling back any change is regressive. But if somebody put square wheels on a bike, it wouldn't be regressive to suggest they go back to round wheels.
It's cool if you think BOTW was perfect the way it was, but that doesn't change the fact that some of its changes to the formula were not for the better. And this idea that they shouldn't look back at what the old games got right because that's the past and we gotta move forward is frankly ridiculous.
The fact that you can't have more than 5 people talk about BOTW at length without somebody bringing up their disappointment in a lack of feeling of progression, a complaint that's pretty unique to BOTW, clearly shows that some aspects of Zelda got fucked up in the transition to open world.
The fact that people have complaints means they fucked up something in the transition? The implication is that if they had done it "right" no one would have complaints, or at least no complaints about the things that...who, you?...think are the aspects that got fucked up. That's a bold perspective.
And I think you might want to reread the bolded sentence, out of context, and decide if you think it actually is a reasonable statement to make, or if you're the one to determine "the fact" in relation to changes, and if they were for the better. Your perspective is no more relevant than the person you're dismissing for thinking it's, presumably, perfect.
Plus, it's Zelda, every thing that gets changed is viewed by some as the worst thing that could happen. People bitch that LttP was too on rails, that Wind Waker is kiddy, that Twilight Princess is boring and repetitive, that using 3D to solve puzzles in OoT was a cop out for "real" puzzles, and on and on. The only Zelda anyone will be totally happy with is probably the first one they played, because every other one changes something, and far too many people equate change with "not for the better" simply because it's different.
Tears will absolutely make people mad, because it's a new Zelda game that isn't somehow exactly the same as whatever one they'd prefer, yet simultaneously completely new.
How about we just let it be what it is. It'll have good stuff and bad stuff, and it's pretty certain that it will be most like BotW of any other Zelda game, in the same way LBW was most like LttP.
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I'm personally wondering how much they are going to change about the general landscape. I mean the setting is the proverbial “one year later” or something like that but whole chunks of continent have been thrown into the sky somehow? Or is that the Twilight Realm version of Hyrule? Will we be able to explore the unaltered light realm and then use the shrines or the towers as portals to the equivalent sect of the twilight realm (kinda like ALBW)?
people can have any opinions they want, just don't expect other people to accept them whole as gospel. Especially if you frame them as dogma or axiom.
No, they didn't "drop the ball" with so many things in BotW, you just didn't like them. No, there isn't a lack of rewards, you just didn't like them.
Breath of the Wild rules and if Nintendo decided to backtrack because of a vocal minority who wanted Zelda to be the same forever it would be a tragedy and games would be worse off for it.
Eh. There are things BOTW does better than previous Zelda games, and things that it does worse. There would be nothing wrong with taking a step back in some areas while still trying to move forward in others.
This is where I disagree. What areas should they compromise? Any parts of the game that certain people want reverted or revamped were changed with intent, and are part of the holistic design. I reject the idea that there is inherent value in regression. There needs to be a reason to step backwards beyond just "people liked it before".
You're operating on an assumption that all change is progressive, and therefore rolling back any change is regressive. But if somebody put square wheels on a bike, it wouldn't be regressive to suggest they go back to round wheels.
It's cool if you think BOTW was perfect the way it was, but that doesn't change the fact that some of its changes to the formula were not for the better. And this idea that they shouldn't look back at what the old games got right because that's the past and we gotta move forward is frankly ridiculous.
The fact that you can't have more than 5 people talk about BOTW at length without somebody bringing up their disappointment in a lack of feeling of progression, a complaint that's pretty unique to BOTW, clearly shows that some aspects of Zelda got fucked up in the transition to open world.
In a series known for stale mechanical design, yeah, change is good. In an industry that has been struggling in the modern AAA space with mechanical innovation and invention, yeah, change is good.
The “square wheel” analogy doesn’t fit here, because what we are working with are mechanical changes that have been widely accepted as excellent, and more importantly, are completely functional and engineered with purpose. “Square wheels” implies the devs just changed things at random to see what would happen, without consideration of the final product. (Remember the anecdotes about how they built a 2d technical demo/test to see if what they had built was worthwhile?) It’s not fucked up wheels, it’s more like a new kind of bike frame, or a new gear shift system; the bike functions perfectly well, and will get you to the destination just the same. Whether or not you prefer the new or old is a different discussion, and the crux of my whole spiel is that this thread has fallen into a pattern of conflating the two topics.
The fact that people have complaints means they fucked up something in the transition? The implication is that if they had done it "right" no one would have complaints, or at least no complaints about the things that...who, you?...think are the aspects that got fucked up. That's a bold perspective.
Yeah, they fucked up something that pretty much every Zelda game had gotten right in the past. You can still like the end result (as I really enjoyed BOTW), but still acknowledge that there is no meaningful progression after you leave the Plateau.
And I think you might want to reread the bolded sentence, out of context, and decide if you think it actually is a reasonable statement to make, or if you're the one to determine "the fact" in relation to changes, and if they were for the better. Your perspective is no more relevant than the person you're dismissing for thinking it's, presumably, perfect.
While it is subjective on an individual level whether or not some of the changes to Zelda in BOTW were for the worse, it's a fact that a lot of people feel they were. "Taylot Swift is a good musician" is subjective. "A lot of people like Taylor Swift" is a fact.
Plus, it's Zelda, every thing that gets changed is viewed by some as the worst thing that could happen. People bitch that LttP was too on rails, that Wind Waker is kiddy, that Twilight Princess is boring and repetitive, that using 3D to solve puzzles in OoT was a cop out for "real" puzzles, and on and on. The only Zelda anyone will be totally happy with is probably the first one they played, because every other one changes something, and far too many people equate change with "not for the better" simply because it's different.
I actually like pretty much every Zelda game. Warts and all. Oddly enough, the only ones I don't are the first ones I played on the NES. I don't dislike changes just because I view all changes as bad. It does seem like a lot of fans think BOTW should be immune to criticism, which is kind of annoying.
people can have any opinions they want, just don't expect other people to accept them whole as gospel. Especially if you frame them as dogma or axiom.
No, they didn't "drop the ball" with so many things in BotW, you just didn't like them. No, there isn't a lack of rewards, you just didn't like them.
NOT LIKE THING != THING BAD
Its very tiresome and it infects so much of our culture, not just gaming but society in general.
In a series known for stale mechanical design, yeah, change is good. In an industry that has been struggling in the modern AAA space with mechanical innovation and invention, yeah, change is good.
Obviously there is no meeting in the middle on this discussion. We simply disagree on a fundamental level since you seem to think that all change is good, even if it makes something worse.
Yeah to me the lack of items after you leave the plateau is a flaw of the game. Not enough to make it a bad game by any means. I prefer traditional Zelda games with a smaller amount of dungeons.
people can have any opinions they want, just don't expect other people to accept them whole as gospel. Especially if you frame them as dogma or axiom.
No, they didn't "drop the ball" with so many things in BotW, you just didn't like them. No, there isn't a lack of rewards, you just didn't like them.
NOT LIKE THING != THING BAD
Its very tiresome and it infects so much of our culture, not just gaming but society in general.
Yeah it's why I don't ever share my opinion of movies outside of this place. I don't like Marvel/Star Wars any more. But every time I mention it to my friends they act like I just insulted their lives and always want to argue about it. So I just don't watch the movies and never mention it.
I'd argue that BotW had MORE meaningful progression than most Zelda games. The old Zelda formula you go through a dungeon, get a heart, and an item that odds are you will never use again, or at least, very situationally. Every now and then you'll get new clothes that are needed by the next dungeon. BotW you get innate powers that you can use everywhere (beasts), the master sword, different types of clothing that you can swap out for different situations, upgradeable armor, more health and stamina, and you can do these things at your own pace, by your own actions, as opposed to getting them on the game's predetermined schedule.
People keep outright stating that the game has major flaws with it, but every time I've heard someone say what those flaws are, I don't think they are flaws, I think they are the strengths of the game.
I dunno, I absolutely adored the game and its direction and new mechanics, but I still had a few little niggles with it. A recipe book would be fantastic, as would the ability to cook multiple things at once.
There's nothing wrong with criticizing something you like overall.
I think BotW is a really good game (it has some issues, like the lack of permanent weapons and the weird incentives it creates). I'm not sure I would call it a really good Zelda game, in that it diverges so much from the expected patterns. There are very Zelda parts to it, but...
This doesn't make it a bad game, but it does mean it's bad at being something in the vein of OoT. Because it wasn't designed as that.
Also, the game is incredible on a technical level and the engine and all, but thats another topic.
I'd argue that BotW had MORE meaningful progression than most Zelda games. The old Zelda formula you go through a dungeon, get a heart, and an item that odds are you will never use again, or at least, very situationally. Every now and then you'll get new clothes that are needed by the next dungeon. BotW you get innate powers that you can use everywhere (beasts), the master sword, different types of clothing that you can swap out for different situations, upgradeable armor, more health and stamina, and you can do these things at your own pace, by your own actions, as opposed to getting them on the game's predetermined schedule.
People keep outright stating that the game has major flaws with it, but every time I've heard someone say what those flaws are, I don't think they are flaws, I think they are the strengths of the game.
I've heard this argument before. I think it simultaneously exaggerates the "useless item" problem of previous Zelda games and exaggerates the utility of post-Plateau upgrades in BOTW.
Yes, every Zelda game had an item or two that was useless outside of its dungeon, but most of them became regularly used tools for the rest of the game.
Honestly, the only champion ability that I found useful was that super jump because it saved me a little stamina when climbing. So I had to easy stamina food less often. Such a meaningful upgrade.
And when I wasn't required to change clothes because of temperature, the minor stat boosts often weren't worth the time it took to change.
In a series known for stale mechanical design, yeah, change is good. In an industry that has been struggling in the modern AAA space with mechanical innovation and invention, yeah, change is good.
Obviously there is no meeting in the middle on this discussion. We simply disagree on a fundamental level since you seem to think that all change is good, even if it makes something worse.
You've dropped the context. You're ignoring the rest of the words around what I'm saying. In the context of a series that has been criticized for stagnancy, which is part of the AAA subset of the industry that has been criticized for stagnancy, change is an intelligent route to take. That's easy to see, yeah? Business wise, or creativity wise, change makes sense here. Whether or not you agree with the route is the subjective piece.
Certain mechanical parts of Breath of the Wild are often brought up as problems that need fixing ("square wheels", as you said) and not a mechanical design choice that I do not prefer. This is the major point that I feel is being passed over and ignored.
I'd argue that BotW had MORE meaningful progression than most Zelda games. The old Zelda formula you go through a dungeon, get a heart, and an item that odds are you will never use again, or at least, very situationally. Every now and then you'll get new clothes that are needed by the next dungeon. BotW you get innate powers that you can use everywhere (beasts), the master sword, different types of clothing that you can swap out for different situations, upgradeable armor, more health and stamina, and you can do these things at your own pace, by your own actions, as opposed to getting them on the game's predetermined schedule.
People keep outright stating that the game has major flaws with it, but every time I've heard someone say what those flaws are, I don't think they are flaws, I think they are the strengths of the game.
I've heard this argument before. I think it simultaneously exaggerates the "useless item" problem of previous Zelda games and exaggerates the utility of post-Plateau upgrades in BOTW.
Yes, every Zelda game had an item or two that was useless outside of its dungeon, but most of them became regularly used tools for the rest of the game.
Honestly, the only champion ability that I found useful was that super jump because it saved me a little stamina when climbing. So I had to easy stamina food less often. Such a meaningful upgrade.
And when I wasn't required to change clothes because of temperature, the minor stat boosts often weren't worth the time it took to change.
It's the difference between things being generally useful, but having multiple routes to a goal, vs being rarely useful, but unique in their abilities. It doesn't feel like progression to me to use an item in a way that was specifically designed to use that item. It's like calling gaining a specific item in an adventure game progression. And I know that the zelda items did have uses outside of their dungeons, but honestly I rarely used them outside of specific scenarios - I used the boomerang in fights, but things like the bow and different arrow types? Not really. Most are a pain to use compared to just using the sword, so why would I bother.
That may be the big disconnect, the old zelda style often felt more like a puzzle adventure game, whereas BotW feels more like an open world rpg (eg elder scrolls) to me. They have very different feels of what 'progression' even means.
people can have any opinions they want, just don't expect other people to accept them whole as gospel. Especially if you frame them as dogma or axiom.
No, they didn't "drop the ball" with so many things in BotW, you just didn't like them. No, there isn't a lack of rewards, you just didn't like them.
NOT LIKE THING != THING BAD
But like a thing = thing good right?
There is a lack of rewards because the types of "rewards" are very slim for a huge open world game, especially a Zelda game where the series is known for there being all kinds of "stuff" to find and Link having a huge arsenal of items/weapons/spells to use.
I liked how many different types of clothes there were and how you could dye them. That was pretty much my only motivation for peeking around every corner to find something.
I wasn't going to find secret weapons, because they're all breakable.
I wasn't going to find any new items or gadgets that altered or enhanced traversal.
I wasn't going to find any new glyphs.
I wasn't going to find any spells to cast.
I wasn't going to find any fun special items like the invisibility cape or Cane of Byrna
Not a lack of rewards compared to what? Forspoken?
No, I don't consider random crafting mats and ingredients that are all over the fucking place to worthwhile exploration incentives.
No, I am not super stoked at finding my 60th Orb or my 300th Korok Seed.
Yes, the Great Fairies were fabulous and finding them was amusing.
For all you have to do to get access to the classic tunic, I remember thinking this is nice and all but....this is it? Just clothes?
While I had my preferred weapon "types" I never cared anything about them, or felt attached to them, because they were all breakable garbage, I just grabbed whatever because it didn't actually matter. I never got to feel like "Oh *wow* look what I found. I love *this* thing." Later on they just became "random thing to use while Master Sword is recharging".
Breath of the Wild's open world is great to wander around and look it, and it's a wonderful playground for the Glyph's you're given and how you can do ridiculous things with the enemies and the physics, but it was a let down for me because I wanted to scour every inch of the map hoping for some kind of secret thing or new weapon, tool, item, spell, anything and there was nothing.
The first time I tried to fight a Lynel, I got my ass handed to me, turned around and ran away thinking "Welp, guess I'm not fighting this enemy until much later". By the end of the game I was getting into Lynel fights just for fun. How is that not meaningful progression? It's not classic Zelda-style "I got item X, now I can access area Y" (though there is some of that - you can't get into Gerudo Town without the right outfit, can't get into Goron City without fireproof armor or a stupid amount of elixirs) but your character definitely becomes more powerful over the course of the game. Arguably the whole point of the game is to explore until you become powerful enough to go to Hyrule Castle. Sure you can make a beeline for the castle straight from the Great Plateau but you probably won't last too long. To say there is no progression after the Plateau is silly - you've got Shrine orb upgrades, Rune ability upgrades, Divine Beast abilities, armor upgrades, unique items like the Master Sword and Hylian Shield (plus more in the DLC), as well as combat mechanics you can learn and master. The whole game revolves around turning Link from a shirtless boy with a tree branch to an unstoppable death machine.
I actually just started BotW last week hoping to play it before the new one comes out. I've had it since launch, but bounced off of it pretty early on because I didn't like the wide-open nature of it - I really prefer the older "there are x number of dungeons" thing. In fact, I skipped it and played through the Link's Awakening remake instead.
So far, I'm liking it, but not really loving it. I've gotten used to the basic "here are your missions on a map, go to them" type of thing - but I really miss the traditional dungeons and it just makes it feel less Zelda-y somehow. Also, my immediate temptation is to kill everything I see, which really isn't the goal of this game. I hate the breaking weapons - I wouldn't mind it as much if they weren't so fragile and I am terrible and switching between weapons/bows in the heat of battle so I have to pause every time and just completely pull myself out of the game.
I also dislike that they introduced crafting/cooking and it's so vital to not dying. I find the way you pause into a menu, select food, and then unpause to put them into the fire to just be another thing pulling me away from actually having fun. Finding hearts when you're hurt is just such an ingrained thing in the series to me that I dislike that mid-battle I'm needing to pause, go into a menu, and eat an apple I baked. In general, that's my biggest issue -that the interface gets in my way of having fun. I hate to constantly pause to change powers, weapons, eat, cook, etc - I never just enjoy playing the game.
I will hopefully play through it this time though - I can see the appeal of going into all the hidden areas for orbs to get higher health and whatnot. I also like the story, music, and art style so far - they are still some of the best of the console. I see what they were doing, but I'm having a hard time so far enjoying it to the extent that other people seemed to. Sometimes games lean towards feeling like a chore, and this one is sort of headed that way for me.
I have played every single Zelda game. Breath of the Wild was the first one I finished/saw credits on. It's almost like people like different things, and people get emotional attachment to franchises/characters, and get upset when a game doesn't fit what they want it to be.
A good example of this for me is The Last of Us Part 2. I played the whole thing. Technically it was a masterpiece of a video game, graphically, storytelling, gameplay, etc. But I didn't like the story of the game. That doens't take away my understanding that it was a very good video game.
It's like any move that has a 99% approval rating on rotten tomatoes/metacritic and you're the 1%. It happens.
My main concern with Tears of the Kingdom right now is that they're re-using the BOTW map. I've already explored every inch of that map. You can clearly see some changes to the landscape in the trailers (not even counting the sky islands), I just hope there are enough changes and additions to the map that it feels genuinely new instead of "Here we go again".
All the 3D Zelda games (OoT, MM, WW, TP, SS) just haven't been able to be good, rewarding Zelda-like enough games compared to isometric, proper, traditional Zelda games. The triangle wheel that is the third axis really only introduces problems in getting the game rolling right.
Then along comes BotW and finally makes an enjoyable 3D Zelda spin-off experience that actually works on its own merits instead of simply trying to imitate the traditional Zelda games in 3D.
Goosing around a bit of course but I will go so far as saying that BotW is the best 3D Zelda experience and every single isometric Zelda ranks above the other 3D ones, despite still considering them enjoyable games.
I mean, I'm expecting Tears to be very much More BotW, and that's okay. It's the direct sequel, they're allowed to stick with it.
I'm just hoping after Tears the next Zelda is more of a classic thing, because I like the classic Zelda loop a lot more than the open world thing and there are not actually a lot of competent Zelda-likes being released.
Every Zelda game has sky-high expectations to be a master piece and absolute classic. I personally wouldn't mind a Mario Galaxy 2 situation (which I liked better than the original game). Similar to the last game, but the content is just way better, there's more of it, and honed (on average the content is better). Now, there is the long development time to take into account. We're looking at over 6 years since Breath of the Wild was released when Tears of the Kingdom comes out. Content creation takes an insane amount of time (for a little personal context, I spent over 300 hours creating a map in the FPS game Prodeus which lasted an average of 30-40 minutes of gameplay time), so if it looks largely similar (assets, etc.), the expectation for lots of new content should be pretty high.
I swear there's more Zelda talk here than in the Zelda thread.
Anyway, looks like the Tales of Symphonia remaster released today. Anybody played it yet? I'm on the fence and love the game but not really sure if it's worth it at least without a sale.
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I swear there's more Zelda talk here than in the Zelda thread.
Anyway, looks like the Tales of Symphonia remaster released today. Anybody played it yet? I'm on the fence and love the game but not really sure if it's worth it at least without a sale.
Everyone is slagging this for the port quality. It's the PS3 "remaster" of the 30 FPS PS2 version except even worse. More crashes, artifacts from AI upscaling (including weird lines in the font), literally the longest loading times of any platform. So you're basically playing the same game except worse but portably.
I swear there's more Zelda talk here than in the Zelda thread.
Anyway, looks like the Tales of Symphonia remaster released today. Anybody played it yet? I'm on the fence and love the game but not really sure if it's worth it at least without a sale.
Everyone is slagging this for the port quality. It's the PS3 "remaster" of the 30 FPS PS2 version except even worse. More crashes, artifacts from AI upscaling (including weird lines in the font), literally the longest loading times of any platform. So you're basically playing the same game except worse but portably.
Pretty much what I expected. Love the game and want to support Tales games on Nintendo hardware but it does seem overpriced for what it is. I'll probably wait for a sale. Luckily Bandai Namco games go on sale all the time.
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Switch (JeffConser): SW-3353-5433-5137 Wii U: Skeldare - 3DS: 1848-1663-9345
PM Me if you add me!
BotW opinions aside, SS literally brought my daughter to tears.
We just finished SS after a nearly 2-year break. She was quite invested into the ending and was quite happy when we defeated Demise.
But oh how the tears started flowing when Fi said she had to sleep in the sword forever. She didn’t want Fi to go and I’m not gonna lie, it hit me in the feels seeing her like that.
Funny how most people were annoyed at Fi and she was so attached to her. Really puts a fresh perspective when you see the same experience through a younger player’s eyes.
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I swear there's more Zelda talk here than in the Zelda thread.
Anyway, looks like the Tales of Symphonia remaster released today. Anybody played it yet? I'm on the fence and love the game but not really sure if it's worth it at least without a sale.
Everyone is slagging this for the port quality. It's the PS3 "remaster" of the 30 FPS PS2 version except even worse. More crashes, artifacts from AI upscaling (including weird lines in the font), literally the longest loading times of any platform. So you're basically playing the same game except worse but portably.
Pretty much what I expected. Love the game and want to support Tales games on Nintendo hardware but it does seem overpriced for what it is. I'll probably wait for a sale. Luckily Bandai Namco games go on sale all the time.
The sad irony of course being that it's originally a Gamecube game! It's just silly that it runs so badly and I'm pretty sure it's 100% Bamco fucking it up.
I swear there's more Zelda talk here than in the Zelda thread.
Anyway, looks like the Tales of Symphonia remaster released today. Anybody played it yet? I'm on the fence and love the game but not really sure if it's worth it at least without a sale.
Everyone is slagging this for the port quality. It's the PS3 "remaster" of the 30 FPS PS2 version except even worse. More crashes, artifacts from AI upscaling (including weird lines in the font), literally the longest loading times of any platform. So you're basically playing the same game except worse but portably.
Pretty much what I expected. Love the game and want to support Tales games on Nintendo hardware but it does seem overpriced for what it is. I'll probably wait for a sale. Luckily Bandai Namco games go on sale all the time.
The sad irony of course being that it's originally a Gamecube game! It's just silly that it runs so badly and I'm pretty sure it's 100% Bamco fucking it up.
The state of the Tales of Symphonia release for Switch is an outright embarrassment. I'm confident slapping the Cube version into whatever official Nintendo emulation wrapper might exist (presuming they did make one) would run and play far better than all I've seen of the disaster they're selling.
The game is still capped at the halved 30 fps from the unimpressive PS2 downport. On top of that, it has unacceptable slowdowns all over the place. Big room? Game slows to a crawl. Lots of transparency? Game slows to a crawl. Menus that are supposed to be overlaid over the game now have a black background because they screwed up the game so bad a full screen of translucency is too costly to render. Want crashes? You got 'em! Want longer loading times than every other version? You get that too! This is supposed to be a professionally-made product, not a D+ student final project.
Please do not spend money on this version unless you want to see Tales of Symphonia in shambles. While I can't say if the other platforms are in any better shape, I'd strongly encourage looking at them instead. In addition, the original Gamecube version can still be had to the tune of $15 used to $50 used & complete in box, and I just price checked that while writing this post. Please rest assured all the shortcomings of playing on a GC or Wii in SD through your TV's upscaler are more preferable to knowing you were ripped off by a laggy, crashy, broken mess.
I swear there's more Zelda talk here than in the Zelda thread.
Anyway, looks like the Tales of Symphonia remaster released today. Anybody played it yet? I'm on the fence and love the game but not really sure if it's worth it at least without a sale.
Everyone is slagging this for the port quality. It's the PS3 "remaster" of the 30 FPS PS2 version except even worse. More crashes, artifacts from AI upscaling (including weird lines in the font), literally the longest loading times of any platform. So you're basically playing the same game except worse but portably.
Pretty much what I expected. Love the game and want to support Tales games on Nintendo hardware but it does seem overpriced for what it is. I'll probably wait for a sale. Luckily Bandai Namco games go on sale all the time.
The sad irony of course being that it's originally a Gamecube game! It's just silly that it runs so badly and I'm pretty sure it's 100% Bamco fucking it up.
That's really sad. I loved Symphonia back in the day, and the RPG/puzzle dungeon schtick of that era, but... yuck. Knowing I could get a much smoother and better experience through the dark arts over the official release is offputting.
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I have no horse in the recent Zelda race as I fell off the 3D ones way back around Wind Waker and despise open world games in general, though loved ALTTP and Awakening (and Hyrule Warriors, if that counts, but FUCK AGE OF CALAMITY, fucking christ, FUCK that game). I'm just kind of amazed that Nintendo hasn't dipped their toes into either a Zelda Maker in that style, or even some form of randomizer. ALTTPR is pretty much the gold standard of randomizers and has a really substantial following and is regularly highlighted in speedrun kind of stuff. It's super weird to me that they both seemingly are totally uninterested in that space, but also are content to let it grow and develop given how normally litigious and protective they are.
people can have any opinions they want, just don't expect other people to accept them whole as gospel. Especially if you frame them as dogma or axiom.
No, they didn't "drop the ball" with so many things in BotW, you just didn't like them. No, there isn't a lack of rewards, you just didn't like them.
NOT LIKE THING != THING BAD
But like a thing = thing good right?
There is a lack of rewards because the types of "rewards" are very slim for a huge open world game, especially a Zelda game where the series is known for there being all kinds of "stuff" to find and Link having a huge arsenal of items/weapons/spells to use.
I liked how many different types of clothes there were and how you could dye them. That was pretty much my only motivation for peeking around every corner to find something.
I wasn't going to find secret weapons, because they're all breakable.
I wasn't going to find any new items or gadgets that altered or enhanced traversal.
I wasn't going to find any new glyphs.
I wasn't going to find any spells to cast.
I wasn't going to find any fun special items like the invisibility cape or Cane of Byrna
Not a lack of rewards compared to what? Forspoken?
No, I don't consider random crafting mats and ingredients that are all over the fucking place to worthwhile exploration incentives.
No, I am not super stoked at finding my 60th Orb or my 300th Korok Seed.
Yes, the Great Fairies were fabulous and finding them was amusing.
For all you have to do to get access to the classic tunic, I remember thinking this is nice and all but....this is it? Just clothes?
While I had my preferred weapon "types" I never cared anything about them, or felt attached to them, because they were all breakable garbage, I just grabbed whatever because it didn't actually matter. I never got to feel like "Oh *wow* look what I found. I love *this* thing." Later on they just became "random thing to use while Master Sword is recharging".
Breath of the Wild's open world is great to wander around and look it, and it's a wonderful playground for the Glyph's you're given and how you can do ridiculous things with the enemies and the physics, but it was a let down for me because I wanted to scour every inch of the map hoping for some kind of secret thing or new weapon, tool, item, spell, anything and there was nothing.
Breath of the Wild has special abilities hidden in dungeons, exactly like every Zelda.
No, there are not hugely important story abilities just hidden in the middle of nowhere - exactly like every Zelda. Did you also get upset in OoT when you swiped some random grass and only got rupees? Or when you unlocked some puzzle and just some stupid piece of heart?
The game signposts the areas that have important abilities and story pretty heavily. You only have to explore every nook and cranny if you want to - and if you don't want to, then you don't have to! If you follow along the story they make clear the types of things there are to find, it's not like there's a gotcha here.
Another disconnect here is that you are talking about exploration like it's a chore that you deserve huge rewards for doing. I enjoyed the game because I was going to explore anyway, and got incremental rewards for doing so. I also enjoy actually doing the puzzles in the shrines, and the mini puzzles for the korok seeds. The puzzles are a reward in and of themselves to me.
So yeah, if you don't like exploration in and of itself, then you're not going to enjoy it here, because you were never going to enjoy it. If you don't enjoy the doing, then there's no reward the game could give you that would make it worth it. But you can also just follow the story bits, do the dungeons, and not strike out into the wild at all.
Funny how most people were annoyed at Fi and she was so attached to her. Really puts a fresh perspective when you see the same experience through a younger player’s eyes.
It helps that they made her less annoying in the Switch version.
people can have any opinions they want, just don't expect other people to accept them whole as gospel. Especially if you frame them as dogma or axiom.
No, they didn't "drop the ball" with so many things in BotW, you just didn't like them. No, there isn't a lack of rewards, you just didn't like them.
NOT LIKE THING != THING BAD
But like a thing = thing good right?
Nope!
I like plenty of things I know are bad. And I dislike plenty of good things.
And you just reworded "I didn't like the rewards" a bunch of times. Your argument still boils down to that. It's a valid reason to NOT LIKE the game! Still doesn't mean BotW is a bad game at all.
Personally, to me, as a person, individually, exploring the world was reward enough, btw, but i'm not crazy to offer that as an argument.
people can have any opinions they want, just don't expect other people to accept them whole as gospel. Especially if you frame them as dogma or axiom.
No, they didn't "drop the ball" with so many things in BotW, you just didn't like them. No, there isn't a lack of rewards, you just didn't like them.
NOT LIKE THING != THING BAD
But like a thing = thing good right?
Nope!
I like plenty of things I know are bad. And I dislike plenty of good things.
And you just reworded "I didn't like the rewards" a bunch of times. Your argument still boils down to that. It's a valid reason to NOT LIKE the game! Still doesn't mean BotW is a bad game at all.
Personally, to me, as a person, individually, exploring the world was reward enough, btw, but i'm not crazy to offer that as an argument.
Why is that crazy? I thought exploring the world was fantastic by itself.
My two cents, the mention of Fi reminded me of why I really love Breath of the Wild. I was not too happy with the path Nintendo was going down and Fi was emblematic of that. Basically Nintendo was acting like gamers needed their hands held constantly. I wouldn’t have been surprised if their next system wiped our butts for us too. A lot of their games were filtering us down set paths. The waggle in Wii games were often designed into making us think we were doing something more sophisticated than what a button press could accomplish. And daddy Nintendo always telling us it was time for a break.
But Breath of the Wild was surprisingly different coming from Nintendo. It was just like “Here’s a big open world with all its dangers and mysteries. Go!” I can see why people would want more structure, but for me it was refreshing that Nintendo stopped handling us like delicate little toddlers.
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Suppose there's a basic set of tools capable of accessing all the game offers. This basic access could mean having to overcome more or more difficult challenges.
Now also suppose there are several other tools to be found that have different functions in combat and physics, which allow alternate solutions that skip or minimize some of these challenges. Add some signposting to hint at or tell of their existence, then let players do as they will.
Crude examples:
- Solve a challenging puzzle to open a gate, or bypass the gate.
- Solve a timed puzzle, or solve the same puzzle without the time limit.
- Fight a troublesome opponent as-is, or counter their most troubling ability.
- Fight a group of opponents as-is, or conveniently neutralize some.
I reason not every challenge would need an alternate approach via these extra tools, just enough to make them feel worth it.
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I'm just hoping after Tears the next Zelda is more of a classic thing, because I like the classic Zelda loop a lot more than the open world thing and there are not actually a lot of competent Zelda-likes being released.
You're operating on an assumption that all change is progressive, and therefore rolling back any change is regressive. But if somebody put square wheels on a bike, it wouldn't be regressive to suggest they go back to round wheels.
It's cool if you think BOTW was perfect the way it was, but that doesn't change the fact that some of its changes to the formula were not for the better. And this idea that they shouldn't look back at what the old games got right because that's the past and we gotta move forward is frankly ridiculous.
The fact that you can't have more than 5 people talk about BOTW at length without somebody bringing up their disappointment in a lack of feeling of progression, a complaint that's pretty unique to BOTW, clearly shows that some aspects of Zelda got fucked up in the transition to open world.
Thinking about replaying that game fills me with dread.
And yet I loved Metroid Dread so I dunno what my problem is.
The fact that people have complaints means they fucked up something in the transition? The implication is that if they had done it "right" no one would have complaints, or at least no complaints about the things that...who, you?...think are the aspects that got fucked up. That's a bold perspective.
And I think you might want to reread the bolded sentence, out of context, and decide if you think it actually is a reasonable statement to make, or if you're the one to determine "the fact" in relation to changes, and if they were for the better. Your perspective is no more relevant than the person you're dismissing for thinking it's, presumably, perfect.
Plus, it's Zelda, every thing that gets changed is viewed by some as the worst thing that could happen. People bitch that LttP was too on rails, that Wind Waker is kiddy, that Twilight Princess is boring and repetitive, that using 3D to solve puzzles in OoT was a cop out for "real" puzzles, and on and on. The only Zelda anyone will be totally happy with is probably the first one they played, because every other one changes something, and far too many people equate change with "not for the better" simply because it's different.
Tears will absolutely make people mad, because it's a new Zelda game that isn't somehow exactly the same as whatever one they'd prefer, yet simultaneously completely new.
How about we just let it be what it is. It'll have good stuff and bad stuff, and it's pretty certain that it will be most like BotW of any other Zelda game, in the same way LBW was most like LttP.
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No, they didn't "drop the ball" with so many things in BotW, you just didn't like them. No, there isn't a lack of rewards, you just didn't like them.
NOT LIKE THING != THING BAD
In a series known for stale mechanical design, yeah, change is good. In an industry that has been struggling in the modern AAA space with mechanical innovation and invention, yeah, change is good.
The “square wheel” analogy doesn’t fit here, because what we are working with are mechanical changes that have been widely accepted as excellent, and more importantly, are completely functional and engineered with purpose. “Square wheels” implies the devs just changed things at random to see what would happen, without consideration of the final product. (Remember the anecdotes about how they built a 2d technical demo/test to see if what they had built was worthwhile?) It’s not fucked up wheels, it’s more like a new kind of bike frame, or a new gear shift system; the bike functions perfectly well, and will get you to the destination just the same. Whether or not you prefer the new or old is a different discussion, and the crux of my whole spiel is that this thread has fallen into a pattern of conflating the two topics.
While it is subjective on an individual level whether or not some of the changes to Zelda in BOTW were for the worse, it's a fact that a lot of people feel they were. "Taylot Swift is a good musician" is subjective. "A lot of people like Taylor Swift" is a fact.
I actually like pretty much every Zelda game. Warts and all. Oddly enough, the only ones I don't are the first ones I played on the NES. I don't dislike changes just because I view all changes as bad. It does seem like a lot of fans think BOTW should be immune to criticism, which is kind of annoying.
Its very tiresome and it infects so much of our culture, not just gaming but society in general.
Obviously there is no meeting in the middle on this discussion. We simply disagree on a fundamental level since you seem to think that all change is good, even if it makes something worse.
Yeah it's why I don't ever share my opinion of movies outside of this place. I don't like Marvel/Star Wars any more. But every time I mention it to my friends they act like I just insulted their lives and always want to argue about it. So I just don't watch the movies and never mention it.
People keep outright stating that the game has major flaws with it, but every time I've heard someone say what those flaws are, I don't think they are flaws, I think they are the strengths of the game.
There's nothing wrong with criticizing something you like overall.
This doesn't make it a bad game, but it does mean it's bad at being something in the vein of OoT. Because it wasn't designed as that.
Also, the game is incredible on a technical level and the engine and all, but thats another topic.
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I've heard this argument before. I think it simultaneously exaggerates the "useless item" problem of previous Zelda games and exaggerates the utility of post-Plateau upgrades in BOTW.
Yes, every Zelda game had an item or two that was useless outside of its dungeon, but most of them became regularly used tools for the rest of the game.
Honestly, the only champion ability that I found useful was that super jump because it saved me a little stamina when climbing. So I had to easy stamina food less often. Such a meaningful upgrade.
And when I wasn't required to change clothes because of temperature, the minor stat boosts often weren't worth the time it took to change.
You've dropped the context. You're ignoring the rest of the words around what I'm saying. In the context of a series that has been criticized for stagnancy, which is part of the AAA subset of the industry that has been criticized for stagnancy, change is an intelligent route to take. That's easy to see, yeah? Business wise, or creativity wise, change makes sense here. Whether or not you agree with the route is the subjective piece.
Certain mechanical parts of Breath of the Wild are often brought up as problems that need fixing ("square wheels", as you said) and not a mechanical design choice that I do not prefer. This is the major point that I feel is being passed over and ignored.
It's the difference between things being generally useful, but having multiple routes to a goal, vs being rarely useful, but unique in their abilities. It doesn't feel like progression to me to use an item in a way that was specifically designed to use that item. It's like calling gaining a specific item in an adventure game progression. And I know that the zelda items did have uses outside of their dungeons, but honestly I rarely used them outside of specific scenarios - I used the boomerang in fights, but things like the bow and different arrow types? Not really. Most are a pain to use compared to just using the sword, so why would I bother.
That may be the big disconnect, the old zelda style often felt more like a puzzle adventure game, whereas BotW feels more like an open world rpg (eg elder scrolls) to me. They have very different feels of what 'progression' even means.
But like a thing = thing good right?
There is a lack of rewards because the types of "rewards" are very slim for a huge open world game, especially a Zelda game where the series is known for there being all kinds of "stuff" to find and Link having a huge arsenal of items/weapons/spells to use.
I liked how many different types of clothes there were and how you could dye them. That was pretty much my only motivation for peeking around every corner to find something.
I wasn't going to find secret weapons, because they're all breakable.
I wasn't going to find any new items or gadgets that altered or enhanced traversal.
I wasn't going to find any new glyphs.
I wasn't going to find any spells to cast.
I wasn't going to find any fun special items like the invisibility cape or Cane of Byrna
Not a lack of rewards compared to what? Forspoken?
No, I don't consider random crafting mats and ingredients that are all over the fucking place to worthwhile exploration incentives.
No, I am not super stoked at finding my 60th Orb or my 300th Korok Seed.
Yes, the Great Fairies were fabulous and finding them was amusing.
For all you have to do to get access to the classic tunic, I remember thinking this is nice and all but....this is it? Just clothes?
While I had my preferred weapon "types" I never cared anything about them, or felt attached to them, because they were all breakable garbage, I just grabbed whatever because it didn't actually matter. I never got to feel like "Oh *wow* look what I found. I love *this* thing." Later on they just became "random thing to use while Master Sword is recharging".
Breath of the Wild's open world is great to wander around and look it, and it's a wonderful playground for the Glyph's you're given and how you can do ridiculous things with the enemies and the physics, but it was a let down for me because I wanted to scour every inch of the map hoping for some kind of secret thing or new weapon, tool, item, spell, anything and there was nothing.
So far, I'm liking it, but not really loving it. I've gotten used to the basic "here are your missions on a map, go to them" type of thing - but I really miss the traditional dungeons and it just makes it feel less Zelda-y somehow. Also, my immediate temptation is to kill everything I see, which really isn't the goal of this game. I hate the breaking weapons - I wouldn't mind it as much if they weren't so fragile and I am terrible and switching between weapons/bows in the heat of battle so I have to pause every time and just completely pull myself out of the game.
I also dislike that they introduced crafting/cooking and it's so vital to not dying. I find the way you pause into a menu, select food, and then unpause to put them into the fire to just be another thing pulling me away from actually having fun. Finding hearts when you're hurt is just such an ingrained thing in the series to me that I dislike that mid-battle I'm needing to pause, go into a menu, and eat an apple I baked. In general, that's my biggest issue -that the interface gets in my way of having fun. I hate to constantly pause to change powers, weapons, eat, cook, etc - I never just enjoy playing the game.
I will hopefully play through it this time though - I can see the appeal of going into all the hidden areas for orbs to get higher health and whatnot. I also like the story, music, and art style so far - they are still some of the best of the console. I see what they were doing, but I'm having a hard time so far enjoying it to the extent that other people seemed to. Sometimes games lean towards feeling like a chore, and this one is sort of headed that way for me.
A good example of this for me is The Last of Us Part 2. I played the whole thing. Technically it was a masterpiece of a video game, graphically, storytelling, gameplay, etc. But I didn't like the story of the game. That doens't take away my understanding that it was a very good video game.
It's like any move that has a 99% approval rating on rotten tomatoes/metacritic and you're the 1%. It happens.
Then along comes BotW and finally makes an enjoyable 3D Zelda spin-off experience that actually works on its own merits instead of simply trying to imitate the traditional Zelda games in 3D.
Goosing around a bit of course but I will go so far as saying that BotW is the best 3D Zelda experience and every single isometric Zelda ranks above the other 3D ones, despite still considering them enjoyable games.
Every Zelda game has sky-high expectations to be a master piece and absolute classic. I personally wouldn't mind a Mario Galaxy 2 situation (which I liked better than the original game). Similar to the last game, but the content is just way better, there's more of it, and honed (on average the content is better). Now, there is the long development time to take into account. We're looking at over 6 years since Breath of the Wild was released when Tears of the Kingdom comes out. Content creation takes an insane amount of time (for a little personal context, I spent over 300 hours creating a map in the FPS game Prodeus which lasted an average of 30-40 minutes of gameplay time), so if it looks largely similar (assets, etc.), the expectation for lots of new content should be pretty high.
Anyway, looks like the Tales of Symphonia remaster released today. Anybody played it yet? I'm on the fence and love the game but not really sure if it's worth it at least without a sale.
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Everyone is slagging this for the port quality. It's the PS3 "remaster" of the 30 FPS PS2 version except even worse. More crashes, artifacts from AI upscaling (including weird lines in the font), literally the longest loading times of any platform. So you're basically playing the same game except worse but portably.
Pretty much what I expected. Love the game and want to support Tales games on Nintendo hardware but it does seem overpriced for what it is. I'll probably wait for a sale. Luckily Bandai Namco games go on sale all the time.
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We just finished SS after a nearly 2-year break. She was quite invested into the ending and was quite happy when we defeated Demise.
But oh how the tears started flowing when Fi said she had to sleep in the sword forever. She didn’t want Fi to go and I’m not gonna lie, it hit me in the feels seeing her like that.
Funny how most people were annoyed at Fi and she was so attached to her. Really puts a fresh perspective when you see the same experience through a younger player’s eyes.
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The sad irony of course being that it's originally a Gamecube game! It's just silly that it runs so badly and I'm pretty sure it's 100% Bamco fucking it up.
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The game is still capped at the halved 30 fps from the unimpressive PS2 downport. On top of that, it has unacceptable slowdowns all over the place. Big room? Game slows to a crawl. Lots of transparency? Game slows to a crawl. Menus that are supposed to be overlaid over the game now have a black background because they screwed up the game so bad a full screen of translucency is too costly to render. Want crashes? You got 'em! Want longer loading times than every other version? You get that too! This is supposed to be a professionally-made product, not a D+ student final project.
Please do not spend money on this version unless you want to see Tales of Symphonia in shambles. While I can't say if the other platforms are in any better shape, I'd strongly encourage looking at them instead. In addition, the original Gamecube version can still be had to the tune of $15 used to $50 used & complete in box, and I just price checked that while writing this post. Please rest assured all the shortcomings of playing on a GC or Wii in SD through your TV's upscaler are more preferable to knowing you were ripped off by a laggy, crashy, broken mess.
Don't have to take my word for it either:
Check out the RPGSite Review that focuses on the quality of the Remastered port.
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That's really sad. I loved Symphonia back in the day, and the RPG/puzzle dungeon schtick of that era, but... yuck. Knowing I could get a much smoother and better experience through the dark arts over the official release is offputting.
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I have no horse in the recent Zelda race as I fell off the 3D ones way back around Wind Waker and despise open world games in general, though loved ALTTP and Awakening (and Hyrule Warriors, if that counts, but FUCK AGE OF CALAMITY, fucking christ, FUCK that game). I'm just kind of amazed that Nintendo hasn't dipped their toes into either a Zelda Maker in that style, or even some form of randomizer. ALTTPR is pretty much the gold standard of randomizers and has a really substantial following and is regularly highlighted in speedrun kind of stuff. It's super weird to me that they both seemingly are totally uninterested in that space, but also are content to let it grow and develop given how normally litigious and protective they are.
Breath of the Wild has special abilities hidden in dungeons, exactly like every Zelda.
No, there are not hugely important story abilities just hidden in the middle of nowhere - exactly like every Zelda. Did you also get upset in OoT when you swiped some random grass and only got rupees? Or when you unlocked some puzzle and just some stupid piece of heart?
The game signposts the areas that have important abilities and story pretty heavily. You only have to explore every nook and cranny if you want to - and if you don't want to, then you don't have to! If you follow along the story they make clear the types of things there are to find, it's not like there's a gotcha here.
Another disconnect here is that you are talking about exploration like it's a chore that you deserve huge rewards for doing. I enjoyed the game because I was going to explore anyway, and got incremental rewards for doing so. I also enjoy actually doing the puzzles in the shrines, and the mini puzzles for the korok seeds. The puzzles are a reward in and of themselves to me.
So yeah, if you don't like exploration in and of itself, then you're not going to enjoy it here, because you were never going to enjoy it. If you don't enjoy the doing, then there's no reward the game could give you that would make it worth it. But you can also just follow the story bits, do the dungeons, and not strike out into the wild at all.
This is why they were kicked off the Metroid Prime 4 project.
It helps that they made her less annoying in the Switch version.
I like plenty of things I know are bad. And I dislike plenty of good things.
And you just reworded "I didn't like the rewards" a bunch of times. Your argument still boils down to that. It's a valid reason to NOT LIKE the game! Still doesn't mean BotW is a bad game at all.
Personally, to me, as a person, individually, exploring the world was reward enough, btw, but i'm not crazy to offer that as an argument.
Why is that crazy? I thought exploring the world was fantastic by itself.
But Breath of the Wild was surprisingly different coming from Nintendo. It was just like “Here’s a big open world with all its dangers and mysteries. Go!” I can see why people would want more structure, but for me it was refreshing that Nintendo stopped handling us like delicate little toddlers.