Options

Twilight Imperium 4

13

Posts

  • Options
    MrBodyMrBody Registered User regular
    MrBody wrote: »
    Yellow has better higher end techs than red, but red has the better unit upgrades.

    I always thought Space Dock II could use a different kind of boost other than just +2 production.

    "Exhaust this card to have one of your docks produce at the start of movement."

  • Options
    MrBodyMrBody Registered User regular
    Anyone heard of or tried Stellaris Nexus? It's being touted by people as mostly Twilight Imperium with a bit of Stellaris, that plays with up to 7 others in about 1-2 hours

    https://store.steampowered.com/app/1983990/Stellaris_Nexus/

  • Options
    PowerpuppiesPowerpuppies drinking coffee in the mountain cabinRegistered User regular
    I would need somebody to explain what that means i think 😆

    sig.gif
  • Options
    MrBodyMrBody Registered User regular
    Someone made what (supposedly) feels like a major Stellaris mod that tries to very closely recreate "legally distinct" Twilight Imperium as a PC game. Aim to make it faster with simultaneous turns and concludes in 1-2 hours.

  • Options
    MrBodyMrBody Registered User regular
    Geez, these Twilight Wars games are like baby sea turtles. You have to make hundreds of them just so a few survive the dash to the ocean without being deleted from someone going inactive.

  • Options
    kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    edited January 22
    MrBody wrote: »
    Geez, these Twilight Wars games are like baby sea turtles. You have to make hundreds of them just so a few survive the dash to the ocean without being deleted from someone going inactive.

    Yeah, honestly, I've stopped starting new games in Twilight Wars and have moved over to the discord bot:
    kime wrote: »
    Is that a synchronous TI medium?

    To be clear, since the two words are similar, it's an asynchronous platform.

    It didn't have all of PoK yet though, so if I were ever to be able to play live/synchronously again, I'd probably use Tabletop Simulator

    Have you guys tried the discord bot? Full PoK with codices, as well as support for all sorts of variants. You mostly take your turns by pressing buttons in discord threads, and a bot spits out map updates in a special thread. There's a website with a map view. Here's a game I'm in now: https://ti4.westaddisonheavyindustries.com/game/pbd1478

    I tried it out a bit, and yeah. It works pretty great! The UI is never gonna be quite as good as a full app like TW, but you get PoK (which I missed sooooo much), and it's a lot more flexible. So like, you can float windows more easily, adjust things if you made a mistake (and the table's OK with it), replace placers if needed, auto-pass on a variety of things at pseudorandom times you customize so it's not obvious, etc. And it's on discord which does have working notifications at whatever you want, which is something TW lacks.

    And the whole thing is open source, so if you find a bug you can go fix it, if you wanted. Or add a feature, etc.

    Edit: Here's the main server that uses the bot: https://discord.gg/KJUpayuS . That's where you'd go to read the rules and join games and such.

    kime on
    Battle.net ID: kime#1822
    3DS Friend Code: 3110-5393-4113
    Steam profile
  • Options
    MrBodyMrBody Registered User regular
    Was it also your experience that hardly anyone ever wants to negotiate in Twilight Wars? Even in major diplomatic cases like "hey, we need to make SOME kind of solid agreement or I'm going to have to preemptively strike that fleet that has nowhere to go but my production center", I just get silence or a couple vague nothing quips.

    It's like people just want to play with bots, or the nature of having to juggle a dozen games at once just so one can reach the end makes it so you can't pay proper attention to them all.

  • Options
    MrBodyMrBody Registered User regular
    edited January 25
    I am launching a crusade!

    To end the "1 commodity for free Trade refresh" meta.

    People look at it like "I get 5 TG while everyone else gets 2 (average)", but looking at it, that's not really the case.

    It's more "I get 1 TG, another player gets 2" and then you do that 5 times for everyone at the table.

    How often would you make a 1:2 deal? There are circumstances, but as a default meta? Crazy! You're giving up SO much bargaining power as a round 1-2 Trade holder. That free refresh is often the difference between other players affording a round 1 research or 2nd carrier. Denying that is way more valuable than giving yourself one extra TG.

    This madness ends now! Sign my petition, look up local street protests in your area, etc.

    MrBody on
  • Options
    tosoraktosorak Registered User regular
    What do you think is a better price for the free refresh?

  • Options
    kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    tosorak wrote: »
    What do you think is a better price for the free refresh?

    Don't do a free refresh for anyone unless you are gaining something of equivalent-ish value?

    Battle.net ID: kime#1822
    3DS Friend Code: 3110-5393-4113
    Steam profile
  • Options
    PowerpuppiesPowerpuppies drinking coffee in the mountain cabinRegistered User regular
    Game theory inexorably leads to the X-1 across enough deals - it is the best deal for the trade primary players that is still good enough for 4-comm trade secondary players to accept it

    There's a separate very good argument around fun management and delay of game, and that's probably the stronger argument, but the first one is more interesting for me.

    Occasionally somebody in the community pushes hard for "X=2" which is "i refresh everyone, you pay me the comms you got >2" but it always meets some resistance from people who think it's mathematically wrong and more resistance from people who don't want to ever discuss it in their games

    Also "i get 5 total, each of my opponents gets 2" is a much, much better deal than "i get 1, one of my opponents gets 2" so i don't at all agree with your assertion that it's crazy. It would take weird circumstances for me to turn down "we all get money but i get twice as much as the next highest person."

    sig.gif
  • Options
    MMMigMMMig Registered User regular
    r1 r2 is so early that anything more than 1 tg is too much cost.

    Getting a tech that early or 1 round slower on getting extra planets isn't THAT important.

    l4lGvOw.png
    Witty signature comment goes here...

    wra
  • Options
    PowerpuppiesPowerpuppies drinking coffee in the mountain cabinRegistered User regular
    I'm basically on board with denying X-1 in an alternate universe where there's no collective bargaining or colluding to punish you for not offering X-1. I think you could sometimes get a better deal, and if there's no asymmetric retaliation you might give up one or more of your TG payments for refreshing an opponent because it helps them so much.

    sig.gif
  • Options
    MrBodyMrBody Registered User regular
    edited January 27
    I'll clarify then that blanket deny is (almost) as bad idea as blanket refresh.

    It's not a single decision for "5 TG for me, 2-3 for everyone else".
    It's "1 TG for me, 2-3 for another player" to be decided 5 separate times.
    Many times there will be another player where you're better off going 0/0 with them.

    This is especially true in round 1 & 2 when everyone has a "resource hump" they have to clear if they want to take advantage of tech/warfare. Often, those extra TGs make the difference in clearing the hump or not. Just barely clearing the hump with your +3 TGs while everyone else misses it (no tech or 2nd carrier) puts you ahead of everyone more than others clearing the hump and you clearing it just a little more. Trade goods give a decreasing marginal value the more you get. (and dear lord, the number of times I see people give everyone a refresh, only to immediately blow all 8 TGs on a luxury flagship they didn't need). Weigh that 1 extra TG against how likely their 2-3 will let them clear that hump, how much the hump will benefit them, and what position they're in to get in your way with an early boost.

    The idea that the entire table must collectively punish anyone who strays from a meta really annoys me. Like, why even bother playing a game at that point? Just sit 6 bots down and have them all follow a strict "acceptable meta" flowchart until it's over. I still remember my first and last game with the Space Cats Peace Turtles community where one guy raged at me all game because I wouldn't sell him the Speaker token. "You're SUPPOSED to! It's STUPID not to! You're not playing right!", and took every opportunity to lash out at me pettily.

    Also, further recent proof how overpowered Blue techs are.
    4msxl2oqbe22.png

    MrBody on
  • Options
    kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    MrBody wrote: »
    The idea that the entire table must collectively punish anyone who strays from a meta really annoys me. Like, why even bother playing a game at that point? Just sit 6 bots down and have them all follow a strict "acceptable meta" flowchart until it's over. I still remember my first and last game with the Space Cats Peace Turtles community where one guy raged at me all game because I wouldn't sell him the Speaker token. "You're SUPPOSED to! It's STUPID not to! You're not playing right!", and took every opportunity to lash out at me pettily.

    Well that person sounds great.

    .....

    Battle.net ID: kime#1822
    3DS Friend Code: 3110-5393-4113
    Steam profile
  • Options
    PowerpuppiesPowerpuppies drinking coffee in the mountain cabinRegistered User regular
    edited January 28
    It's a negotiation game and hurting your opponents by not doing them a favor that costs you nothing is very dangerous, you have to manage that table heat. I'm not sure there's anything wrong with retaliating for a refusal to refresh, or with currying favor with someone who is mad about not being refreshed, assisting them in their retaliation. I'm not looking to defend whatever odd ducks behaved badly toward you, but in general I think X-1 is correct play, after second and third order retaliation / extortion / collective bargaining considerations, and I don't think anybody is playing wrong if they expect an X-1. It seems like we can't say somebody is not playing right if they extort an X-1 first round. On what basis would we excoriate them, etc

    c18c4cf3-f778-47bf-a2aa-305f032d9e6e_text.gif

    Powerpuppies on
    sig.gif
  • Options
    MrBodyMrBody Registered User regular
    People do stuff all the time that cost them "nothing" yet screw over plays that others were hoping to make, mostly with strategy card timings early on. People seem to take that fine with no vendetta. Yet bargain basement trade refreshes is this weird exception where everyone feels entitled for someone else to help them out. "No, I wanted the benefit from another strategy card AND all the commodities from Trade!"

    In a race to the finish line, if the choices are take 2 steps forward while everyone takes 1, or taking zero steps but sending everyone else 2 steps back, I'm going to send everyone else 2 steps back. I wouldn't begrudge anyone for picking the same.

    That's my attitude to a negotiation game where there can be only 1 winner. I will never, ever get upset over getting screwed over as long as that was the best personal play for the screwer to win. "Well played, you ruthless shark, sir." When people start making making moves out of sheer petty revenge is when I get miffed. Everyone should play to finish as strongly as possible.

  • Options
    MrBodyMrBody Registered User regular
    kime wrote: »
    MrBody wrote: »
    The idea that the entire table must collectively punish anyone who strays from a meta really annoys me. Like, why even bother playing a game at that point? Just sit 6 bots down and have them all follow a strict "acceptable meta" flowchart until it's over. I still remember my first and last game with the Space Cats Peace Turtles community where one guy raged at me all game because I wouldn't sell him the Speaker token. "You're SUPPOSED to! It's STUPID not to! You're not playing right!", and took every opportunity to lash out at me pettily.

    Well that person sounds great.

    .....

    I wanted to immediately leave the table, but felt bad for the other players. But after the 3rd warning to the guy that he needed to chill, I apologized to everyone else before quitting on the 2nd to last round.

  • Options
    PowerpuppiesPowerpuppies drinking coffee in the mountain cabinRegistered User regular
    Maybe the people you've played with were jerks about it and inconsistent and obnoxious, for sure. I'm just thinking that if somebody wants to say "it costs you nothing, I'll give you a dollar, i'm extorting your acquiescence by threatening you with retaliation," as a strategic choice, that could be fully rational and lead to enforced X-1 meta and not involve sheer petty revenge

    sig.gif
  • Options
    PowerpuppiesPowerpuppies drinking coffee in the mountain cabinRegistered User regular
    MrBody wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    MrBody wrote: »
    The idea that the entire table must collectively punish anyone who strays from a meta really annoys me. Like, why even bother playing a game at that point? Just sit 6 bots down and have them all follow a strict "acceptable meta" flowchart until it's over. I still remember my first and last game with the Space Cats Peace Turtles community where one guy raged at me all game because I wouldn't sell him the Speaker token. "You're SUPPOSED to! It's STUPID not to! You're not playing right!", and took every opportunity to lash out at me pettily.

    Well that person sounds great.

    .....

    I wanted to immediately leave the table, but felt bad for the other players. But after the 3rd warning to the guy that he needed to chill, I apologized to everyone else before quitting on the 2nd to last round.

    Good for you. Fuck taking shit from a stranger for hours because they don't like your moves in a board game!

    sig.gif
  • Options
    MrBodyMrBody Registered User regular
    edited January 28
    Eh, I'm ashamed I put up with it for a whole hour.

    I'm finishing up the 3 Twilight Wars games I have going, but I think I'm done playing this with online strangers, or at least people outside a little community like this one. Anonymity does crazy things to people.

    We should really get a TW game going with people here, and document it in a thread like the old PbP games.

    MrBody on
  • Options
    PowerpuppiesPowerpuppies drinking coffee in the mountain cabinRegistered User regular
    I'm all in on the async discord bot, no TW for me

    sig.gif
  • Options
    MrBodyMrBody Registered User regular
    Am I the only one who thinks that the "balanced" pre-made map on Twilight Wars is awful?

    I get that saving setup time makes it appealing, but it's terrible. It all boils down to the 3 empty systems bordering Mecatol. No human would ever put an empty system in their own direct path to the center. People are going to use empty or red systems as obstacles to fortify their borders. If someone ever puts such a tile in a central path, it's because that slice is already shaping up to be OP. But that's in a draft mode where one of the things you can pick is...

    ...starting position. This alone makes any pre-generated map on TW unplayable. Starting position is HUGE! Oh, turns out I picked a race with no early game or combat abilities and I'm stuck between a Nekro/N'orr/Mentak. GG? At the very least, why aren't starting positions revealed first BEFORE race selection? Pick Jol-Nar only to get a surprise Nekro neighbor, something that anyone would avoid at all costs in a drafting game.

    And all the empty Mecatol-adjacent systems just compound this problem. Half the board is funneled into the paths of other players at the 2nd ring. An early aggressive race funneled into you is death. It also only further increases the importance of Blue tech mobility.

  • Options
    MMMigMMMig Registered User regular
    edited January 29
    Those premade maps are what came with the official game iirc.

    Those maps with empty spaces near home or MR are fine imo. Aggressive races don't start with blue, and going ham against a neighbor early usually means you also lose terribly.

    I think the premade maps are pretty great overall.

    MMMig on
    l4lGvOw.png
    Witty signature comment goes here...

    wra
  • Options
    MrBodyMrBody Registered User regular
    Hell, I'd probably be fine too if you got to pick your starting location in a draft.

  • Options
    kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    Yeah, another (slightly smaller but still relevant) reason that I'm probably not starting any more TW games and just gonna use the Async Bot exclusively. You can build the map however you want there. Pretty much every game uses some variation of Milty draft, which is much nicer than the TW options.

    Battle.net ID: kime#1822
    3DS Friend Code: 3110-5393-4113
    Steam profile
  • Options
    MrBodyMrBody Registered User regular
    I'm gonna poke around the Discord bot tonight.

  • Options
    kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    MrBody wrote: »
    I'm gonna poke around the Discord bot tonight.

    Ask if you have questions!

    Battle.net ID: kime#1822
    3DS Friend Code: 3110-5393-4113
    Steam profile
  • Options
    PowerpuppiesPowerpuppies drinking coffee in the mountain cabinRegistered User regular
    @MMMig i think we are maybe about to join the same game on async bot!

    sig.gif
  • Options
    MrBodyMrBody Registered User regular
    Is there a fresh invite for the discord bot?

  • Options
    PowerpuppiesPowerpuppies drinking coffee in the mountain cabinRegistered User regular
    DM sent

    sig.gif
  • Options
    MrBodyMrBody Registered User regular
    It worked!

    Is there anything worthwhile to be found in "Absol's mod" or any of the codices?

  • Options
    PowerpuppiesPowerpuppies drinking coffee in the mountain cabinRegistered User regular
    The codices are straight improvements and everyone plays with them digitally i think

    Absol's agendas and relics are improvements imo but reasonable people can disagree. They're viewed as a variant like frankendraft or discordant suns.

    I haven't looked hard enough at her techs to have much of an opinion

    sig.gif
  • Options
    kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    I've never tried Absol's but I'd like to. In particular the Agendas I've browsed look like the make the Agenda phase a lot more relevant, where it often can... not have any real decisions for lots of players a lot of the time. Especially if you have like, Xxcha in the game :lol:

    Like Powerpuppies said, the Codices should always be included unless you know what you're doing and are trying something strange deliberately.

    I'm in my first game of Discordant Suns just as of yesterday, which is definitely interesting. (It adds like 20+ new fanmade factions.) I wouldn't recommend it until you're really familiar with the real game, but it looks like a lot of promise for more variety.

    Battle.net ID: kime#1822
    3DS Friend Code: 3110-5393-4113
    Steam profile
  • Options
    PowerpuppiesPowerpuppies drinking coffee in the mountain cabinRegistered User regular
    I like the idea of adding a purge effect to relics that otherwise stink if you draw them late

    sig.gif
  • Options
    MMMigMMMig Registered User regular
    @MMMig i think we are maybe about to join the same game on async bot!

    Oh, cool! Which game is it?

    Oh you're pupps!!!??!?!?


    Thank the gods... I was worried you might be Yssaril in another game. His game with me as a neighbor.... isn't going so well. 😞

    l4lGvOw.png
    Witty signature comment goes here...

    wra
  • Options
    PowerpuppiesPowerpuppies drinking coffee in the mountain cabinRegistered User regular
    I do love some smelly goblins but no I'm your 🤡 🐢 rival

    sig.gif
  • Options
    JokermanJokerman Everything EverywhereRegistered User regular
    How...does the Discord bot work? do you need to be a memeber of a discord to join a game?

    Should you know how to play before starting here?

  • Options
    kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    Jokerman wrote: »
    How...does the Discord bot work? do you need to be a memeber of a discord to join a game?

    Should you know how to play before starting here?

    It's all done in discord, so yeah you have to join the server to play. Then you just wait for someone to start a game that sounds good to you and ask to join. Or start your own.

    If you don't know how to play TI4, I'd recommend starting your own game and mentioning that'll it'll be in part a learning game for you. There aren't really any rules on what kind of games you're allowed to make as long as everyone at the table is on the same page.

    Battle.net ID: kime#1822
    3DS Friend Code: 3110-5393-4113
    Steam profile
  • Options
    tosoraktosorak Registered User regular
    My total experience prior to playing on discord was one IRL game that was abandoned halfway through. Now I've successfully completed one game on Discord and have a decent chance to win my 2nd game!

    I'd say just jump on in, there's plenty of time between turns to look stuff up and if you aren't sure ask. While there is some hidden information (Action Cards, Secret Objectives), revealing your ACs or SOs isn't the end of the world. Usually your opponents are busy trying to accomplish their own plans and can't spare many actions to spoil yours, even if they know what you are trying to do.

Sign In or Register to comment.