Unfortunately part of the issue with "just skip ARR" is that, well, Heavensward kind of assumes that you played through the story of ARR and have some measure of attachment to (or at the very least prior knowledge of) the characters.
The main story of that expansion has entire sections that's just to clean up loose ends from the final patch of ARR! One of the main party members is from the 2.4 boss fight! There's significant callbacks to the 2.1 trial!
I have to imagine that jumping straight into Heavensward in medias res has got to be very confusing.
ARR 2.0 itself isn't even that bad, either - the main slogs are the feast before Titan and the shaggy dog story before Garuda, and those both got cut down a ton in a big update last expansion. Patch 2.1-2.3 can be somewhat rough, but have been shortened now, and I'd argue that 2.4-2.55 are just good.
It's "bad" in comparison to later expansions, but I'd argue that even the ARR story is above par when it comes to MMORPGs in general.
Also, well, the base game including Heavensward is available in the free trial so you don't even need to shell out any cash until you're many hours in.
the thing about video game stories is they're largely all bad so even if you say one is good i assume you're grading on the scale of the medium
I think this is only true if we think that video game stories are only conveyed through the writing and dialogue. The best game stories are, in my opinion, told through all of the elements of the medium, including visuals, music, and dialogue. What I tend to think is most special though, is when they tell stories in a way that couldn't be told in any other medium.
I'll give two examples:
Spoilers for Brothers: Tale of Two Sons.
In this game, you control two brothers, a younger brother and and older one, on a quest to get some kind of medicine for their sick mother. The way that you control it is that each brother is controlled using one analog stick. Like most video game stuff, there are things one brother can do, and the other can't. For example, the little brother almost drowns at the beginning of the story, and he is afraid of water throughout the rest of the time, and so the big brother has to go grab him, and carry him through water. Near the end of the game the older brother has to sacrifice himself to protect the younger one when they are getting the medicine, and he dies. Now the right analog stick is just lifeless, and does nothing throughout the whole last act, on the journey back. In the final stretch on the trek home, the road just before your house is washed out, and the younger brother has to cross a raging river to get the medicine back home. He summons his courage and goes into the water, but is quickly overwhelmed and starts to drown. But them you feel the faintest bit of movement and vibration in the right side of the controller, as the memory of the older brother helps him summon the strength to push through. You have to use both analog sticks to make it through the final river. If you play that game, and aren't walloped by the storytelling at that point, I don't know what to tell you.
Another example, Journey, has no writing or dialogue to speak of, really. The entire story of
youth, adolescence, adulthood, aging, injury, death, and transcendence, and reanimation
is told through the environment, and what it physically feels like to control the character at different points. The tale of companionship, and loss of companionship is all told through the mechanics. Freedom, fear and limitation are all conveyed beautifully. Of course, I'm pulling up one of the greatest examples ever, but this is one of the best "stories" ever told, and all without any dialogue. That's why I think its so limiting to discuss video game stories as just their writing.
Unfortunately part of the issue with "just skip ARR" is that, well, Heavensward kind of assumes that you played through the story of ARR and have some measure of attachment to (or at the very least prior knowledge of) the characters.
The main story of that expansion has entire sections that's just to clean up loose ends from the final patch of ARR! One of the main party members is from the 2.4 boss fight! There's significant callbacks to the 2.1 trial!
I have to imagine that jumping straight into Heavensward in medias res has got to be very confusing.
ARR 2.0 itself isn't even that bad, either - the main slogs are the feast before Titan and the shaggy dog story before Garuda, and those both got cut down a ton in a big update last expansion. Patch 2.1-2.3 can be somewhat rough, but have been shortened now, and I'd argue that 2.4-2.55 are just good.
It's "bad" in comparison to later expansions, but I'd argue that even the ARR story is above par when it comes to MMORPGs in general.
Also, well, the base game including Heavensward is available in the free trial so you don't even need to shell out any cash until you're many hours in.
Yeah, ARR is the foundation for the entire storyline. If you skip it, you might get to the better stuff sooner but you're probably not going to get the same impact because you've skipped over a ton of characterization and instigating events. And when FF14 is a storyline that builds on everything that came before then missing that foundation isn't really conducive to understanding what's happening and more importantly why.
That's why I don't think ARR is bad and something to be skipped. If someone thinks it's a slog and they want to skip it, on their own head be it but it's their choice. If someone is interested in the game though and looking to try it I'm not gonna preemptively poison their expectations, I'll let them experience it for themselves and they can form their own opinions. Maybe they fall off it for whatever reason, maybe they're engrossed, either one's fine because everyone's entitled to their own opinion on what they enjoy.
MaddocI'm Bobbin Threadbare, are you my mother?Registered Userregular
If you want an MMO to get into that gets straight to what people describe as "the good bits", you're honestly better off checking out the Old Republic.
If you want an MMO to play long term, and also it has a good plot eventually, that's where FFXIV comes in
the thing about video game stories is they're largely all bad so even if you say one is good i assume you're grading on the scale of the medium
I think this is only true if we think that video game stories are only conveyed through the writing and dialogue. The best game stories are, in my opinion, told through all of the elements of the medium, including visuals, music, and dialogue. What I tend to think is most special though, is when they tell stories in a way that couldn't be told in any other medium.
I'll give two examples:
Spoilers for Brothers: Tale of Two Sons.
In this game, you control two brothers, a younger brother and and older one, on a quest to get some kind of medicine for their sick mother. The way that you control it is that each brother is controlled using one analog stick. Like most video game stuff, there are things one brother can do, and the other can't. For example, the little brother almost drowns at the beginning of the story, and he is afraid of water throughout the rest of the time, and so the big brother has to go grab him, and carry him through water. Near the end of the game the older brother has to sacrifice himself to protect the younger one when they are getting the medicine, and he dies. Now the right analog stick is just lifeless, and does nothing throughout the whole last act, on the journey back. In the final stretch on the trek home, the road just before your house is washed out, and the younger brother has to cross a raging river to get the medicine back home. He summons his courage and goes into the water, but is quickly overwhelmed and starts to drown. But them you feel the faintest bit of movement and vibration in the right side of the controller, as the memory of the older brother helps him summon the strength to push through. You have to use both analog sticks to make it through the final river. If you play that game, and aren't walloped by the storytelling at that point, I don't know what to tell you.
Another example, Journey, has no writing or dialogue to speak of, really. The entire story of
youth, adolescence, adulthood, aging, injury, death, and transcendence, and reanimation
is told through the environment, and what it physically feels like to control the character at different points. The tale of companionship, and loss of companionship is all told through the mechanics. Freedom, fear and limitation are all conveyed beautifully. Of course, I'm pulling up one of the greatest examples ever, but this is one of the best "stories" ever told, and all without any dialogue. That's why I think its so limiting to discuss video game stories as just their writing.
Or perhaps those two games are some of the exceptions to the rule implied by "largely all bad"
Like, yes, there are videogames with genuinely good stories out there, I think we can mostly agree on that conceptually even if we disagree on the games in question
But that doesn't immediately disprove the idea that videogame stories tend to get graded on a curve because they're often secondary to the experience overall
in fact i would largely say that when people say that video game stories are good, what they actually mean is "there's a lot of fun characters that talk at you." this is where bioware planted their flag for example. terrible plots. pulp-like without the fun of being pulpy. but it's still fun when an alien tells an anecdote about their past.
this is largely what pulls final fantasy 14 out of the ARR writing. the start of ff14 is bad because it's about you. it's trying to tell a story about the player character becoming a hero. no one gives a shit. you're a video game character, you are gonna be a hero, done. once people start saying that ff14 gets good it's because it stops trying to tell a story about you and starts focusing on the characters that accompany you, to the point that a large swath of the first expansion is a classic JRPG party of you and 3 other NPCs making their way on a pilgrimage to a major plot location. it realizes it can take for granted that the player character is largely just "a guy who is happy to go on adventures and do the right thing" and it doesn't really need to provide a ton of justification past that point.
Man this is cynical to a degree that it makes me feel bad for you! I'm sorry that video game stories have been so disappointing that you have decided the entire medium sucks, I guess!
I still tend to enjoy video games myself and I think the story of FFXIV was great.
Now see, I don't know if I agree that criticism is cynical. A well-laid out point of view with intertextual references and a clear perspective on what works or doesn't for em, praise handed out along with the criticism. While it's totally valid and fair to disagree with criticism and say, "I don't care, I still like it," I don't think that makes criticism cynical.
It reminds me of a bit of an unresolved tension in the medium*, from way back in the day when Roger Ebert said video games aren't art. There was sturm and drang about how dismissive and wrong that was, but there is perpetual resistance within the culture of the medium to engaging critically with games as though they were art. "You just don't like games and I feel sorry for you" as a response to criticism is, to me, almost... Stultifying? Like, engaging enough with games as a medium to have opinions on the shapes of certain narratives, bringing analytical lenses to bear on those shapes, communicating one's opinions on those shapes to an audience of fellow enthusiasts, goodness gracious is that not coming from a place of hate or cynicism or indifference. That one's enjoyment and engagement differs from yours is not cynicism, it's just... Preference.
It strikes me as hard for the medium to grow* when criticism and analysis are viewed as attacks, or as inherently negative. Where's growth and change supposed to come from, ya know?
*(I've been talking video games here, but the phenomenon isn't wholly unique to them. See also: The perennial conversations about how blockbusters don't get enough oscar nominations and people who don't like Marvel movies are pretentious haters or whatever)
It's alright. I got kinda behind on some deadlines and needed to step away from the internet to get some space to a) sort out my brain enough to catch up on those and then b) do said catching up, but all's well for now. I'm sure I'll wander off into the wilderness again at some point
the thing about video game stories is they're largely all bad so even if you say one is good i assume you're grading on the scale of the medium
I think this is only true if we think that video game stories are only conveyed through the writing and dialogue. The best game stories are, in my opinion, told through all of the elements of the medium, including visuals, music, and dialogue. What I tend to think is most special though, is when they tell stories in a way that couldn't be told in any other medium.
I'll give two examples:
Spoilers for Brothers: Tale of Two Sons.
In this game, you control two brothers, a younger brother and and older one, on a quest to get some kind of medicine for their sick mother. The way that you control it is that each brother is controlled using one analog stick. Like most video game stuff, there are things one brother can do, and the other can't. For example, the little brother almost drowns at the beginning of the story, and he is afraid of water throughout the rest of the time, and so the big brother has to go grab him, and carry him through water. Near the end of the game the older brother has to sacrifice himself to protect the younger one when they are getting the medicine, and he dies. Now the right analog stick is just lifeless, and does nothing throughout the whole last act, on the journey back. In the final stretch on the trek home, the road just before your house is washed out, and the younger brother has to cross a raging river to get the medicine back home. He summons his courage and goes into the water, but is quickly overwhelmed and starts to drown. But them you feel the faintest bit of movement and vibration in the right side of the controller, as the memory of the older brother helps him summon the strength to push through. You have to use both analog sticks to make it through the final river. If you play that game, and aren't walloped by the storytelling at that point, I don't know what to tell you.
Another example, Journey, has no writing or dialogue to speak of, really. The entire story of
youth, adolescence, adulthood, aging, injury, death, and transcendence, and reanimation
is told through the environment, and what it physically feels like to control the character at different points. The tale of companionship, and loss of companionship is all told through the mechanics. Freedom, fear and limitation are all conveyed beautifully. Of course, I'm pulling up one of the greatest examples ever, but this is one of the best "stories" ever told, and all without any dialogue. That's why I think its so limiting to discuss video game stories as just their writing.
Or perhaps those two games are some of the exceptions to the rule implied by "largely all bad"
Like, yes, there are videogames with genuinely good stories out there, I think we can mostly agree on that conceptually even if we disagree on the games in question
But that doesn't immediately disprove the idea that videogame stories tend to get graded on a curve because they're often secondary to the experience overall
Well, I think it makes sense that they are graded on a "curve". But rather than refer to as a curve, I would say that they tell stories in a video game-like way. For example, it makes sense that video games will not be very good at telling stories when graded by movie-like standards, just as movies have crappy stories when graded by novel-like standards, and novels have bad stories when told by song-like standards.
I think its true that we have a lot of pedestrian stories, but thats mainly because a lot of people (not you, necessarily) think that "video games" as a whole, are the AAA games with the most marketing behind them. And of course those tend to have relatively mundane or pedestrian stories. Just like the highest budget movies tend to have relatively mundane or pedestrian stories. But the indie and small game development scene is really ripe with interesting and powerful stories that are told in a manner no other medium possibly could. LIke, just in the past couple of years, how would any other medium tell a story like Outer Wilds, Before Your Eyes, How Fish is Made, or Disco Elysium do?
When I decide if I think a game has good storytelling, I usually focus less on if there is a rich, complex, and suprising narrative, and more if the game is able to make me feel or think in ways beyond just the "gamey" ways. And I find that is often the case, even in the big games (God of War, Horizon: Forbidden West, and Elden Ring all passed this test for me). Sorry if that doesn't happen for you, but in my opinion, there is plenty of great storytelling in games.
A friend of mine was asking me about Werewolf: The Apocalypse stuff since they're gonna be getting into a W5 game set in London.
Here's how that went for them:
Shagglehod 12/21/2022 1:36 PM
so what's the general status of werewolves in england now, with the apocalypse having struck?
MechMantis 12/21/2022 1:37 PM
as I understand they tend to wander Soho in the rain with Chinese menus in their hands
Posts
edit: this is the best totp i have ever done
as a Hardcore Gamer, i believe that real games should not reward casuals with fun, since they do not deserve it
The main story of that expansion has entire sections that's just to clean up loose ends from the final patch of ARR! One of the main party members is from the 2.4 boss fight! There's significant callbacks to the 2.1 trial!
I have to imagine that jumping straight into Heavensward in medias res has got to be very confusing.
ARR 2.0 itself isn't even that bad, either - the main slogs are the feast before Titan and the shaggy dog story before Garuda, and those both got cut down a ton in a big update last expansion. Patch 2.1-2.3 can be somewhat rough, but have been shortened now, and I'd argue that 2.4-2.55 are just good.
It's "bad" in comparison to later expansions, but I'd argue that even the ARR story is above par when it comes to MMORPGs in general.
Also, well, the base game including Heavensward is available in the free trial so you don't even need to shell out any cash until you're many hours in.
every game should make you actively weep while playing as well as cause you to bleed from at least two separate places
I think this is only true if we think that video game stories are only conveyed through the writing and dialogue. The best game stories are, in my opinion, told through all of the elements of the medium, including visuals, music, and dialogue. What I tend to think is most special though, is when they tell stories in a way that couldn't be told in any other medium.
I'll give two examples:
Spoilers for Brothers: Tale of Two Sons.
Another example, Journey, has no writing or dialogue to speak of, really. The entire story of
i should try that on dates "pay me 20$ and i'll refrain from telling you my childhood trauma"
Yeah, ARR is the foundation for the entire storyline. If you skip it, you might get to the better stuff sooner but you're probably not going to get the same impact because you've skipped over a ton of characterization and instigating events. And when FF14 is a storyline that builds on everything that came before then missing that foundation isn't really conducive to understanding what's happening and more importantly why.
That's why I don't think ARR is bad and something to be skipped. If someone thinks it's a slog and they want to skip it, on their own head be it but it's their choice. If someone is interested in the game though and looking to try it I'm not gonna preemptively poison their expectations, I'll let them experience it for themselves and they can form their own opinions. Maybe they fall off it for whatever reason, maybe they're engrossed, either one's fine because everyone's entitled to their own opinion on what they enjoy.
My god imagine the back and forth where you both extort each other to avoid awkward conversation topics.
pleasepaypreacher.net
"But if you're a drama vampire, pay me $30 and I will spill ALL that messy tea for you"
If you want an MMO to play long term, and also it has a good plot eventually, that's where FFXIV comes in
there has not been a phrase that has so quickly lept into my permanent lexicon since "fatty daddy"
Or perhaps those two games are some of the exceptions to the rule implied by "largely all bad"
Like, yes, there are videogames with genuinely good stories out there, I think we can mostly agree on that conceptually even if we disagree on the games in question
But that doesn't immediately disprove the idea that videogame stories tend to get graded on a curve because they're often secondary to the experience overall
Now see, I don't know if I agree that criticism is cynical. A well-laid out point of view with intertextual references and a clear perspective on what works or doesn't for em, praise handed out along with the criticism. While it's totally valid and fair to disagree with criticism and say, "I don't care, I still like it," I don't think that makes criticism cynical.
It reminds me of a bit of an unresolved tension in the medium*, from way back in the day when Roger Ebert said video games aren't art. There was sturm and drang about how dismissive and wrong that was, but there is perpetual resistance within the culture of the medium to engaging critically with games as though they were art. "You just don't like games and I feel sorry for you" as a response to criticism is, to me, almost... Stultifying? Like, engaging enough with games as a medium to have opinions on the shapes of certain narratives, bringing analytical lenses to bear on those shapes, communicating one's opinions on those shapes to an audience of fellow enthusiasts, goodness gracious is that not coming from a place of hate or cynicism or indifference. That one's enjoyment and engagement differs from yours is not cynicism, it's just... Preference.
It strikes me as hard for the medium to grow* when criticism and analysis are viewed as attacks, or as inherently negative. Where's growth and change supposed to come from, ya know?
*(I've been talking video games here, but the phenomenon isn't wholly unique to them. See also: The perennial conversations about how blockbusters don't get enough oscar nominations and people who don't like Marvel movies are pretentious haters or whatever)
wasn't he in jail
It's alright. I got kinda behind on some deadlines and needed to step away from the internet to get some space to a) sort out my brain enough to catch up on those and then b) do said catching up, but all's well for now. I'm sure I'll wander off into the wilderness again at some point
When being a sexy motherfucker is outlawed only outlaws will be Sexy motherfuckers.
that'll be a problem, huh!
Maybe for you, I'll be posting on PA like
oh let me assure you, my post was devoid of a statement on enjoyability
Nah not me, I mean I've watched Mean Guns, Cobra, Tango and Fucking Cash, games have a long way to fall to hit those lows.
pleasepaypreacher.net
Git gub, scrub
Well, I think it makes sense that they are graded on a "curve". But rather than refer to as a curve, I would say that they tell stories in a video game-like way. For example, it makes sense that video games will not be very good at telling stories when graded by movie-like standards, just as movies have crappy stories when graded by novel-like standards, and novels have bad stories when told by song-like standards.
I think its true that we have a lot of pedestrian stories, but thats mainly because a lot of people (not you, necessarily) think that "video games" as a whole, are the AAA games with the most marketing behind them. And of course those tend to have relatively mundane or pedestrian stories. Just like the highest budget movies tend to have relatively mundane or pedestrian stories. But the indie and small game development scene is really ripe with interesting and powerful stories that are told in a manner no other medium possibly could. LIke, just in the past couple of years, how would any other medium tell a story like Outer Wilds, Before Your Eyes, How Fish is Made, or Disco Elysium do?
When I decide if I think a game has good storytelling, I usually focus less on if there is a rich, complex, and suprising narrative, and more if the game is able to make me feel or think in ways beyond just the "gamey" ways. And I find that is often the case, even in the big games (God of War, Horizon: Forbidden West, and Elden Ring all passed this test for me). Sorry if that doesn't happen for you, but in my opinion, there is plenty of great storytelling in games.
Nope.
A friend of mine was asking me about Werewolf: The Apocalypse stuff since they're gonna be getting into a W5 game set in London.
Here's how that went for them:
...yet another thing Kid Rock had ruined for me
pleasepaypreacher.net
amityville 2 is one of my favorite movie i ain't scared of liking crap for shit