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[Hiberno-Britannic Politics] - This Place Is Not A Place Of Honour

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    daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    "But we're England." didn't work very well as a negotiation strategy during Brexit, but I don't think that'll stop a disturbingly large portion of the population from expecting it to work during any Brejoining (or whatever cute name people come up with) talks.

    Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
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    RazielMortemRazielMortem Registered User regular
    klemming wrote: »
    The fact is that reversing it would be a complete nightmare. Too much shit has happened for us to just say "Oh, we'd like to go back to the exact arrangement we had before we lost all capability for rational thought", and the EU would quite rightly want to renegotiate everything.
    We'd end up in a worse place (which might still be preferable), and any politician supporting it would be the media's new favourite punching bag.

    'Making the best of it' isn't a great phrase, but saying we want to just put the severed limb back on won't achieve anything. The window for sanity has already passed.

    This is not a reason not to do it!! Yes the Thatcher deal is gone. But the EU probably wants us back to end the headache we're causing and so it's in their interest not to be aggressive, unlike when we were leaving (encourage to enter, punish to leave).
    If we keep saying the horse has bolted we'll never do it.

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    ScooterScooter Registered User regular
    There should be a party pushing for it, but even if there was, how long would it take to realistically get back in at the earliest? A decade? Labour might not even win the next election, and even if they did and immediately started the paperwork it'd probably be years of negotiations. In the meantime there does need to be some level of learning to deal with it.

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    klemmingklemming Registered User regular
    edited January 2023
    But the EU probably wants us back to end the headache we're causing and so it's in their interest not to be aggressive, unlike when we were leaving (encourage to enter, punish to leave).
    If they gave us a good deal to welcome us back, they'd be announcing to all other members that leaving than asking to come back would have no consequences. They wouldn't have to be aggressive, but they'd never give us the incredibly generous terms we had before. Adopting the Euro would be a condition, for example (just one thing that the tabloids could unite behind to condemn).

    I'm not going to criticise Starmer for not taking a view that would be career suicide for him, electoral suicide for his party (when an election victory actually looks plausible for the first time in more than a decade), and not have a single prayer of seeing a result.

    If we ever go back to the EU it's going to be in (multiple) decades, not years. My personal guess is the 2050s, but that's probably optimistic.

    klemming on
    Nobody remembers the singer. The song remains.
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    scherbchenscherbchen Asgard (it is dead)Registered User regular
    daveNYC wrote: »
    "But we're England." didn't work very well as a negotiation strategy during Brexit, but I don't think that'll stop a disturbingly large portion of the population from expecting it to work during any Brejoining (or whatever cute name people come up with) talks.

    Breturn?

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    Dis'Dis' Registered User regular
    Scooter wrote: »
    There should be a party pushing for it.

    There is, but the English media don't care about the SNP.

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    CasualCasual Wiggle Wiggle Wiggle Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    Dis' wrote: »
    Scooter wrote: »
    There should be a party pushing for it.

    There is, but the English media don't care about the SNP.

    Even the SNPs pro-EU stance is, "we'll apply after independence" so they don't actually talk about it all that much because their main focus is getting independence first and dealing with everything else after. They've never really made any efforts I've heard about trying to get EU membership back within the UK or steer UK politics in that direction because, well, their entire deal is they don't want to engage in UK politics is any more than they have to in order to govern Scotland.

    So yes, technically there is a pro-EU party but in practical terms no there isn't.

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    Gnome-InterruptusGnome-Interruptus Registered User regular
    scherbchen wrote: »
    daveNYC wrote: »
    "But we're England." didn't work very well as a negotiation strategy during Brexit, but I don't think that'll stop a disturbingly large portion of the population from expecting it to work during any Brejoining (or whatever cute name people come up with) talks.

    Breturn?

    Mullig-UK

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    klemmingklemming Registered User regular
    scherbchen wrote: »
    daveNYC wrote: »
    "But we're England." didn't work very well as a negotiation strategy during Brexit, but I don't think that'll stop a disturbingly large portion of the population from expecting it to work during any Brejoining (or whatever cute name people come up with) talks.

    Breturn?

    Mullig-UK

    BrEUnite.

    Nobody remembers the singer. The song remains.
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    M-VickersM-Vickers Registered User regular
    On the BBC, 100k Civil Servants to go on strike on Feb 1.

    That escalated quickly !

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64241382

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    MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    M-Vickers wrote: »
    On the BBC, 100k Civil Servants to go on strike on Feb 1.

    That escalated quickly !

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64241382

    Not so much.
    Its 100,000 members voted to strike back in November.

    I look forward (in trepidation) to the villification of these people by the government, and most news outlets.

    It's the same as the nursing issues most places.

    "These people are essential workers, they do a harm to the public by striking!"
    "Then maybe you should pay more, offer better conditions, and have a surplus of these essential workers, so that you're not running threadbare in an essential service?"
    "Yeah, fuck that."

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    shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Casual wrote: »
    Dis' wrote: »
    Scooter wrote: »
    There should be a party pushing for it.

    There is, but the English media don't care about the SNP.

    Even the SNPs pro-EU stance is, "we'll apply after independence" so they don't actually talk about it all that much because their main focus is getting independence first and dealing with everything else after. They've never really made any efforts I've heard about trying to get EU membership back within the UK or steer UK politics in that direction because, well, their entire deal is they don't want to engage in UK politics is any more than they have to in order to govern Scotland.

    So yes, technically there is a pro-EU party but in practical terms no there isn't.

    It's also much easier for the SNP because they can (correctly) claim to not be going backsies on the Brexit issue. They wouldn't be rejoining the EU, they'd be joining it for the first time.

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    Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    I imagine Scotland in the position of an escaped convict handcuffed to a fellow prisoner who is delirious, gangrenous, and loudly insists on making The Worst Choices. Of course they're looking desperately for a hacksaw.

    (I may have seen too many old movies.)

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    CasualCasual Wiggle Wiggle Wiggle Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Casual wrote: »
    Dis' wrote: »
    Scooter wrote: »
    There should be a party pushing for it.

    There is, but the English media don't care about the SNP.

    Even the SNPs pro-EU stance is, "we'll apply after independence" so they don't actually talk about it all that much because their main focus is getting independence first and dealing with everything else after. They've never really made any efforts I've heard about trying to get EU membership back within the UK or steer UK politics in that direction because, well, their entire deal is they don't want to engage in UK politics is any more than they have to in order to govern Scotland.

    So yes, technically there is a pro-EU party but in practical terms no there isn't.

    It's also much easier for the SNP because they can (correctly) claim to not be going backsies on the Brexit issue. They wouldn't be rejoining the EU, they'd be joining it for the first time.

    There's no issue with going backsies on Brexit in Scotland because we didn't vote for it in the first place.

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    RazielMortemRazielMortem Registered User regular
    edited January 2023
    I will never accept the 'ah Brexit well, you see, we're kinda stuck with it for now but maybe in 20-30 years we might get around to fixing it.' That kind of thinking would never have fixed the Ozone hole (literally the one global triumph we as a species have managed). We either recognise as a nation our mistakes or we doom our nation to fail. And since our stupid political system gives us a choice of Labour or Conservatives, we should be hounding Labour to make the correct choice and referendum us back into the EU. Because Brexit is dooming a generation and will only get worse.

    RazielMortem on
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    evilthecatevilthecat Registered User regular
    I will never accept the 'ah Brexit well, you see, we're kinda stuck with it for now but maybe in 20-30 years we might get around to fixing it.' That kind of thinking would never have fixed the Ozone hole (literally the one global triumph we as a species have managed). We either recognise as a nation our mistakes or we doom our nation to fail. And since our stupid political system gives us a choice of Labour or Conservatives, we should be hounding Labour to make the correct choice and referendum us back into the EU. Because Brexit is dooming a generation and will only get worse.

    I'd settle for an honest stance on the matter.
    Starmer has been a massive disappointment over the last few weeks.
    I can't tell whether he's been a Tory-lite in disguise the entire time or whether he thinks courting the rabid zealots on the right is a good idea.
    Either way, it's supremely meh and not good for the political health of the country in the long run, imo, as you either enact policies to keep the racists happy or you burn them as soon as you're in office which comes with its own set of problems.

    tip.. tip.. TALLY.. HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
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    Alistair HuttonAlistair Hutton Dr EdinburghRegistered User regular
    Casual wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Casual wrote: »
    Dis' wrote: »
    Scooter wrote: »
    There should be a party pushing for it.

    There is, but the English media don't care about the SNP.

    Even the SNPs pro-EU stance is, "we'll apply after independence" so they don't actually talk about it all that much because their main focus is getting independence first and dealing with everything else after. They've never really made any efforts I've heard about trying to get EU membership back within the UK or steer UK politics in that direction because, well, their entire deal is they don't want to engage in UK politics is any more than they have to in order to govern Scotland.

    So yes, technically there is a pro-EU party but in practical terms no there isn't.

    It's also much easier for the SNP because they can (correctly) claim to not be going backsies on the Brexit issue. They wouldn't be rejoining the EU, they'd be joining it for the first time.

    There's no issue with going backsies on Brexit in Scotland because we didn't vote for it in the first place.

    Yeah, being Pro-EU is a clear vote winner in Scotland


    Whatever side of this issue you're on, this is a provably silly line, and I'm starting to think that perhaps if the Prime Minister would like to extend the years that people (in England) spend studying Maths, the Secretary of State for Scotland would be a wise place to start.

    Tweeter is a Scottish Polling Aggregator with a strong line in sick burns against the Tories. Images attached to tweet are polling showing 65-72% of Scots wanting to join the EU.

    I have a thoughtful and infrequently updated blog about games http://whatithinkaboutwhenithinkaboutgames.wordpress.com/

    I made a game, it has penguins in it. It's pay what you like on Gumroad.

    Currently Ebaying Nothing at all but I might do in the future.
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    RazielMortemRazielMortem Registered User regular
    Starmer is just pushing headlong for the centre ground - it's the classic election strategy that worked for Blair and Starmer actually wants to win (and also make it extremely clear to the public he is not Corbyn). I actually prefer that (as a filthy centrist), but good lord he's still wishy washy AF. I hate that he/Labour are my only option for non-Tory government. How interesting he isn't proposing PR with all this talk of local power. When will these clowns learn - FPTP may have got you in this time but next time it will happily swing back to the crazy Tory people - just close that door permanently and put in place PR. Then Labour can rule with the Libs (and maybe SNP) forever.

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    MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    edited January 2023
    Casual wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Casual wrote: »
    Dis' wrote: »
    Scooter wrote: »
    There should be a party pushing for it.

    There is, but the English media don't care about the SNP.

    Even the SNPs pro-EU stance is, "we'll apply after independence" so they don't actually talk about it all that much because their main focus is getting independence first and dealing with everything else after. They've never really made any efforts I've heard about trying to get EU membership back within the UK or steer UK politics in that direction because, well, their entire deal is they don't want to engage in UK politics is any more than they have to in order to govern Scotland.

    So yes, technically there is a pro-EU party but in practical terms no there isn't.

    It's also much easier for the SNP because they can (correctly) claim to not be going backsies on the Brexit issue. They wouldn't be rejoining the EU, they'd be joining it for the first time.

    There's no issue with going backsies on Brexit in Scotland because we didn't vote for it in the first place.

    Yeah, being Pro-EU is a clear vote winner in Scotland


    Whatever side of this issue you're on, this is a provably silly line, and I'm starting to think that perhaps if the Prime Minister would like to extend the years that people (in England) spend studying Maths, the Secretary of State for Scotland would be a wise place to start.

    Tweeter is a Scottish Polling Aggregator with a strong line in sick burns against the Tories. Images attached to tweet are polling showing 65-72% of Scots wanting to join the EU.

    While I don't doubt the polling, I do doubt the question.

    As has been mentioned previously, the UK (or an independent Scotland) are simply not going to get the same deal they just left. They may get more than the last couple of members got (as the UK, due to size/negotiating power), but it's going to be a significant step down from the position they had.

    Are people saying yes to a return to what they once had with all privileges restored, or yes to the acceptance that it won't be as good, but is still worth doing?

    MorganV on
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    japanjapan Registered User regular
    MorganV wrote: »
    Casual wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Casual wrote: »
    Dis' wrote: »
    Scooter wrote: »
    There should be a party pushing for it.

    There is, but the English media don't care about the SNP.

    Even the SNPs pro-EU stance is, "we'll apply after independence" so they don't actually talk about it all that much because their main focus is getting independence first and dealing with everything else after. They've never really made any efforts I've heard about trying to get EU membership back within the UK or steer UK politics in that direction because, well, their entire deal is they don't want to engage in UK politics is any more than they have to in order to govern Scotland.

    So yes, technically there is a pro-EU party but in practical terms no there isn't.

    It's also much easier for the SNP because they can (correctly) claim to not be going backsies on the Brexit issue. They wouldn't be rejoining the EU, they'd be joining it for the first time.

    There's no issue with going backsies on Brexit in Scotland because we didn't vote for it in the first place.

    Yeah, being Pro-EU is a clear vote winner in Scotland


    Whatever side of this issue you're on, this is a provably silly line, and I'm starting to think that perhaps if the Prime Minister would like to extend the years that people (in England) spend studying Maths, the Secretary of State for Scotland would be a wise place to start.

    Tweeter is a Scottish Polling Aggregator with a strong line in sick burns against the Tories. Images attached to tweet are polling showing 65-72% of Scots wanting to join the EU.

    While I don't doubt the polling, I do doubt the question.

    As has been mentioned previously, the UK (or an independent Scotland) are simply not going to get the same deal they just left. They may get more than the last couple of members got (as the UK, due to size/negotiating power), but it's going to be a significant step down from the position they had.

    Are people saying yes to a return to what they once had with all privileges restored, or yes to the acceptance that it won't be as good, but is still worth doing?

    I think voters in Scotland are more likely than elsewhere in the UK to be clear eyed about what rejoining would entail

    The potential downsides have been Tory attack lines since well before 2016

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    klemmingklemming Registered User regular
    "If you leave the UK, you'll be leaving the EU, and that would be a nightmare for you. Oh by the way, now that that's sorted out we're leaving the EU and taking you with us."

    Nobody remembers the singer. The song remains.
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    Rhesus PositiveRhesus Positive GNU Terry Pratchett Registered User regular
    We voted Leave without a clear vision of what that would mean, why not vote Rejoin in the same spirit?

    Can't even work out if I'm joking

    I'm just so tired

    [Muffled sounds of gorilla violence]
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    evilthecatevilthecat Registered User regular
    We voted Leave without a clear vision of what that would mean, why not vote Rejoin in the same spirit?

    Can't even work out if I'm joking

    I'm just so tired

    tbh I'd love to see some polling on that.
    The UK would not rejoin with all the perks it had when it was in; the €, shengen membership, etc. would all have to be accepted.
    Would "Remainers" be onboard with that?

    tip.. tip.. TALLY.. HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
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    RazielMortemRazielMortem Registered User regular
    I think the Euro requirement could be negotiated. Who knows. But if the EU demand it, we will never join. The Pound as a concept is too strong I think.

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    klemmingklemming Registered User regular
    Uh, I think Liz did a good job of sinking that idea.
    (Hypothetically, if we'd been on the Euro when she shot a hole in the economy, how would that have gone? I'm guessing the Euro wouldn't have plummeted quite so catastrophically due to having countries using it that weren't demonstrably insane)

    I think ideas that all these sticking points could just be negotiated if we wanted to rejoin have the same energy as the arguments that we'd get a bunch of super agreeable trade deals after we left. Maybe, if we were negotiating from a position of strength. But we're not.

    Nobody remembers the singer. The song remains.
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    RazielMortemRazielMortem Registered User regular
    My gut feeling is - if the Euro is required, we're out of the EU forever. People might want to go back to 'how it was before' (worse because they are fuckin' idiots but similar, maybe just more expensive) but they won't accept the Euro - 'ruled by Brussels' etc. So we're either out and a PITA for Europe on their doorstep, or they negotiate it somehow. But I agree Europe holds the cards and may decide it's not worth it, or compromising, and so we remain out.
    One of the reasons I have remainedf quite depressed about politics and the future is I believed then and still do that we are out now forever. That the new conditions on re-joining will never be accepted.

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    japanjapan Registered User regular
    klemming wrote: »
    Uh, I think Liz did a good job of sinking that idea.
    (Hypothetically, if we'd been on the Euro when she shot a hole in the economy, how would that have gone? I'm guessing the Euro wouldn't have plummeted quite so catastrophically due to having countries using it that weren't demonstrably insane)

    I think ideas that all these sticking points could just be negotiated if we wanted to rejoin have the same energy as the arguments that we'd get a bunch of super agreeable trade deals after we left. Maybe, if we were negotiating from a position of strength. But we're not.

    There are agreements on national budgeting that set acceptable parameters as regards budgeted deficits, planned debt, etc

    They're routinely disregarded and are currently suspended because of covid, but essentially Truss and Kwarteng probably wouldn't have been able to override and disregard the Office for Budget Responsibility in the way that they did

    The issue with that budget that spooked the markets was massive tax cuts without any indication how the sudden reduction in tax receipts was going to be managed by cutting spending or incurring additional debt, and accompanied by pledges not to do either of those things

    It probably wouldn't have got as far as parliament because the scrutiny process would have required that those contradictions were resolved

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    RazielMortemRazielMortem Registered User regular
    Yes the Liz and Kwarteng budget was the budget made by a toddler that doesn't understand what money is. Which still astounds me as Liz studied PPE - there's an E in there for a reason Liz!

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    japanjapan Registered User regular
    I do enjoy the way that the Truss/Kwarteng debacle has torpedoed the credibility of the IEA, who have been poisoning the debate on how to run an economy in the UK for decades

    They finally got their big chance, they got their people in as PM and Chancellor, and it more or less immediately triggered a significant economic crisis

    Right now there's a deliciously sulky article on the front page of their website about how "Trussonomics" hasn't really been tried and furthermore the problem is that it wasn't tried hard enough

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    RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    japan wrote: »
    I do enjoy the way that the Truss/Kwarteng debacle has torpedoed the credibility of the IEA, who have been poisoning the debate on how to run an economy in the UK for decades

    They finally got their big chance, they got their people in as PM and Chancellor, and it more or less immediately triggered a significant economic crisis

    Right now there's a deliciously sulky article on the front page of their website about how "Trussonomics" hasn't really been tried and furthermore the problem is that it wasn't tried hard enough

    *Clap* Can *Clap* Only *Clap* Be *Clap* Failed

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    RazielMortemRazielMortem Registered User regular
    japan wrote: »
    I do enjoy the way that the Truss/Kwarteng debacle has torpedoed the credibility of the IEA, who have been poisoning the debate on how to run an economy in the UK for decades

    They finally got their big chance, they got their people in as PM and Chancellor, and it more or less immediately triggered a significant economic crisis

    Right now there's a deliciously sulky article on the front page of their website about how "Trussonomics" hasn't really been tried and furthermore the problem is that it wasn't tried hard enough

    Oh wow, I hadn't gone to their website before. I clicked on the who are we page and I immediately want to punch all these smug pricks in the face.

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    ProhassProhass Registered User regular
    edited January 2023
    You see I only stabbed myself a little bit, that’s why it hurt and I bled everywhere. If I was only allowed to plunge the knife completely into my own guts and then twist, why it would’ve all worked out!

    Prohass on
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    BurnageBurnage Registered User regular
    According to the Times, apparently there are discussions taking place at the Treasury about exempting over 50s from income tax.

    I didn't think the government could signal "to hell with the young" any harder, but...

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    RazielMortemRazielMortem Registered User regular
    Burnage wrote: »
    According to the Times, apparently there are discussions taking place at the Treasury about exempting over 50s from income tax.

    I didn't think the government could signal "to hell with the young" any harder, but...

    I heard the muttering about 'how do we get all the retirees back into the workforce'. Assume this is their big idea. What's that? Most Tory voters are 50+? Totally coincidental oldboy.

    I already have issues with how slanted our country is towards the elderly over the young. God this is infuriating. BLOODY VOTE YOU USELESS TEENAGERS! They will never give a shit about you or your family until you vote!

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    CasualCasual Wiggle Wiggle Wiggle Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    Burnage wrote: »
    According to the Times, apparently there are discussions taking place at the Treasury about exempting over 50s from income tax.

    I didn't think the government could signal "to hell with the young" any harder, but...

    Again they're going to have to come up with some suggestion about how to fund that considering that would probably be the majority of income tax up in smoke. You know, since most the high paying jobs in this country are clung onto by older people refusing to retire and under 40s are busy scraping by with their gig economy.

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    Jam WarriorJam Warrior Registered User regular
    I take great offence at the seeming implication that it is a moral wrong for people to stop working if they don’t have to.

    The reason the older generations are increasingly stopping working is that they disproportionately have all the money so they don’t need to. Trying to fix this by funnelling more money their way is so astoundingly missing the point.

    MhCw7nZ.gif
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    daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    40s and 50s are generally when you hit your peak earnings. This sounds like the Truss fiasco, just coming at it from the other direction.

    Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
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    KarlKarl Registered User regular

    The Times has also been told that the Treasury is discussing giving people tax breaks to go back to work

    Discussion is at an early stage, but there's talk around allowances and even exempting over 50s from income tax

    Steven Swinford-Political Editor, The Times

    Tories just giving up on the millennial vote I see

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    daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    UK's Labour Force Participation Rate is 63%, that's down from 64.5% back in the before times, but nothing crazy. What's the galaxybrain plan? Zero out the income tax on the olds so they sign up to pick fruit this summer?

    Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
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    Jam WarriorJam Warrior Registered User regular
    edited January 2023
    It speaks to the Tory mindset. They can't fathom the idea that someone could have enough money and so would rather just not work thanks. Everyone must want more!

    Jam Warrior on
    MhCw7nZ.gif
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