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[Hiberno-Britannic Politics] - This Place Is Not A Place Of Honour

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    SolarSolar Registered User regular
    Jazz wrote: »
    The timing is probably entirely coincidental, but Penny Mordaunt, the one who was painted by half her party and most of the frothing lunatic press as "too woke" to be Tory leader in the assorted leadership kerfuffles last year yet still put in a reasonable showing nonetheless, has called for the Church of England to allow same-sex marriages, saying the church’s current stance causes “pain and trauma” to LGBTQ+ people.

    The CofE can absolutely shove its exemption from the equality act up it's arae tbh. Needs stripping from them yesterday.

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    RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    Solar wrote: »
    Tastyfish wrote: »
    Solar wrote: »
    How these idiots think that this sort of thing doesn't just trash the Union is beyond me. It's almost like they're working to promote Scottish Independence

    They don't care, I know I've been shouted down every time but it's the same play to a degree as the SNP being the first to break ranks with the opposition to give Boris a GE in 2019.

    Tories are never going to be the people now to keep Scotland in the Union, but you can really make things hard for Labour by daring them to defend both trans issues and devolution, knowing that whilst their base supports both (well, ish), both aren't vote winners nationally. It's a scorched earth electoral policy knowing that they've no chance of winning and almost no chance of winning for some time with the majority they do now.

    So sure, let something harmful to the nation happen, knowing that the fallout will end up being someone else's responsibility and opposition to that fallout will just bolster you're own vote share.

    SNP thought they could mitigate the worst of Boris with their devolved powers and him and his Brexit would strengthen the case for independence (case fucking point today it feels like). Tories now think that fanning pouring petrol on the flames of Scottish independence by overriding devolved powers both weakens Labour by saying that their plans to further devolve power is pointless because the Tories will just take it back, whilst also kicking a wasp's nest of legal challenges that won't resolve until they are out of power. Next Tory PM couldn't give a fuck about Scotland if they left under a Labour leader, they don't live there and they're generally not competitive seats.

    It's playing with fucking fire, because I suspect Scotland leaving the Union shortly will make Brexit just look like the Global Financial Crisis, whilst they think it would be like Brexit on "Freedom Day" whilst all the continuity agreements were in place.

    Or they're morons who think that just having Labour in charge for a couple of years is all the Scots really want, and support will dry up once the Big Bad of the Tories are gone...

    [edit]I mean lets not forget that the 2019 winning Tory campaign team, where the guys imported from the Australian Liberals who thought printing foreign language flyers telling people the election was another day was a good idea. Fines mean nothing if you win.

    The Tories absolutely do care about the Union, its just to be a Tory you need to have a tragically fantasist idea about what the country looks like. They want Scotland to stay, and NI, but without any idea of what might keep them there.

    Rejoining the Single Market would be a good start, if only a start

    (Yes, not happening, etc.)

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    klemmingklemming Registered User regular
    Didn't they get a court judgement that Scotland couldn't have another independence referendum unless Westminster allowed it? That was basically saying they're trapped and don't get to leave, so this is there to drive the point home.
    Silly Scotland, you don't get any independence we don't want you to have.

    Nobody remembers the singer. The song remains.
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    RazielMortemRazielMortem Registered User regular
    It's a little of drive up culture war, combined with 'punishing' Scotland now they know the courts back them, combined with plain Tory TERF-supporting BS. I wish there was a way to trigger a bloody general election now. Another year, FFS. Also I see they managed to push through the ID required to vote thing - so that'll probably help them in key battlegrounds. This country....AND THEY WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO DO ANY OF THIS IF PEOPLE HADN'T VOTED FOR BREXIT! ARrrggggggghhhhhhh.

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    daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    The US Senate is dumb and horrible, but damn if the current situation between Scotland and England doesn't make me understand why it was created.

    Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
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    Mc zanyMc zany Registered User regular
    daveNYC wrote: »
    The US Senate is dumb and horrible, but damn if the current situation between Scotland and England doesn't make me understand why it was created.

    please expand.

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    daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    Mc zany wrote: »
    daveNYC wrote: »
    The US Senate is dumb and horrible, but damn if the current situation between Scotland and England doesn't make me understand why it was created.

    please expand.

    The Senate is highly undemocratic. Each state gets two Senators. California with 39M people has the same number of votes as Wyoming (581k people). Imagine replacing the House of Lords with a legislative body that can actually, for real, block (not just delay) bills, and each nation (NI, Wales, Scotland, England) gets 10 seats. You can see how that might be a mess and bad for some (many/most) things.

    Flip side though, as illustrated with the IndyRef2 court decision followed by Sunak's Section 35ing, is that due to the population disparity between England and the rest of the UK, the setup is basically England with everyone else coming along for the ride; with any independence and devolved powers being dependent on the whim of Westminster (which, again, is basically England due to the population).

    Unfortunately there's no real way to square that circle. You can have a democracy, but then you get things like English PMs pushing through Brexit even though it's going to (for example) cause serious issues with Northern Ireland, or you put something that's very not democratic in place which might stop that but would lead to other stupid horrible things.

    Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
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    RazielMortemRazielMortem Registered User regular
    edited January 2023
    Parliament bad, but I'll take parliament every time over US system because at least Parliament can also do great good as well as evil. UK Labour used parliament to create NHS, nothing Conservative pricks could do but watch. US will never have an NHS because Republicans can always block it.

    RazielMortem on
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    evilthecatevilthecat Registered User regular
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11637345/Former-chancellor-Nadhim-Zahawi-pays-millions-settle-tax-row-probe-family-business.html

    So it appears the man that was handing out inflated PPE contracts to friends and family was also engaged in tax avoidance.
    Anyone surprised?

    tip.. tip.. TALLY.. HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
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    CasualCasual Wiggle Wiggle Wiggle Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    It's a little of drive up culture war, combined with 'punishing' Scotland now they know the courts back them, combined with plain Tory TERF-supporting BS. I wish there was a way to trigger a bloody general election now. Another year, FFS. Also I see they managed to push through the ID required to vote thing - so that'll probably help them in key battlegrounds. This country....AND THEY WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO DO ANY OF THIS IF PEOPLE HADN'T VOTED FOR BREXIT! ARrrggggggghhhhhhh.

    That's two years. They can draw this out to Jan 2025 so you can safely bet they will unless something happens in like six months that flips the polls on their heads. Best case scenario, we get Tory government for every last second of those remaining two years, worst case Starmer eats a bacon sandwich on camera and we get five.

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    klemmingklemming Registered User regular
    What we need to do is organise a massive effort to lie on opinions polls and convince Sunak that calling an election ASAP would result in a tory win.

    Nobody remembers the singer. The song remains.
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    RazielMortemRazielMortem Registered User regular
    If the Tories win again......
    I will give up on this stupid country. Who votes for the people actively punching you in the dick??

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    MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    If the Tories win again......
    I will give up on this stupid country. Who votes for the people actively punching you in the dick??

    People who are fine with that, as long as the people they don't like get punched twice.

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    Alistair HuttonAlistair Hutton Dr EdinburghRegistered User regular
    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/statement-of-reasons-related-to-the-use-of-section-35-of-the-scotland-act-1998/html-version

    Specific reasons just dropped. The first one is a crock of shit. Moving onto the next ones.

    I have a thoughtful and infrequently updated blog about games http://whatithinkaboutwhenithinkaboutgames.wordpress.com/

    I made a game, it has penguins in it. It's pay what you like on Gumroad.

    Currently Ebaying Nothing at all but I might do in the future.
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    Alistair HuttonAlistair Hutton Dr EdinburghRegistered User regular
    Read the second reason. It is also a crock of shit.

    I have a thoughtful and infrequently updated blog about games http://whatithinkaboutwhenithinkaboutgames.wordpress.com/

    I made a game, it has penguins in it. It's pay what you like on Gumroad.

    Currently Ebaying Nothing at all but I might do in the future.
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    shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    If the Tories win again......
    I will give up on this stupid country. Who votes for the people actively punching you in the dick??

    People for whom voting for the other party is twice as many punches in the dick.

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    WotanAnubisWotanAnubis Registered User regular
    So if the Tory's decision here is not entirely legally sound, can Scotland, I dunno, take it up in court or something? Pass the law anyway?

    Or does England simply have the right to veto any Scottish, Welsh, or Northern Irish law it feels like?

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    daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    The Guardian has a summary.
    Can the Scottish government challenge the use of section 35?
    Yes. Scotland’s first minister, Nicola Sturgeon, has said her government is likely to mount a legal challenge in response. This would be through a judicial review, which would assess the lawfulness of the Scotland secretary’s decision.

    Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
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    klemmingklemming Registered User regular
    So if the Tory's decision here is not entirely legally sound, can Scotland, I dunno, take it up in court or something? Pass the law anyway?

    Or does England simply have the right to veto any Scottish, Welsh, or Northern Irish law it feels like?

    We're going to find out:
    Nicola Sturgeon says gender reform row will go to court
    I'm not going to quote most of it, but:
    Mr Jack told the Commons the reforms would have an adverse impact on single sex clubs, associations and schools and protections such as equal pay.
    What? How?

    Nobody remembers the singer. The song remains.
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    Alistair HuttonAlistair Hutton Dr EdinburghRegistered User regular
    edited January 2023
    So if the Tory's decision here is not entirely legally sound, can Scotland, I dunno, take it up in court or something? Pass the law anyway?

    Or does England simply have the right to veto any Scottish, Welsh, or Northern Irish law it feels like?

    It will go to court who will decide if the UK govs reasons are legitimate.

    If the supreme court decides the reasons to block are legitimate then that is the end of devolution as the entire basis of the Uk govs argument is that you can't have different laws in Scotland and the rest of the UK.

    Alistair Hutton on
    I have a thoughtful and infrequently updated blog about games http://whatithinkaboutwhenithinkaboutgames.wordpress.com/

    I made a game, it has penguins in it. It's pay what you like on Gumroad.

    Currently Ebaying Nothing at all but I might do in the future.
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    daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    klemming wrote: »
    So if the Tory's decision here is not entirely legally sound, can Scotland, I dunno, take it up in court or something? Pass the law anyway?

    Or does England simply have the right to veto any Scottish, Welsh, or Northern Irish law it feels like?

    We're going to find out:
    Nicola Sturgeon says gender reform row will go to court
    I'm not going to quote most of it, but:
    Mr Jack told the Commons the reforms would have an adverse impact on single sex clubs, associations and schools and protections such as equal pay.
    What? How?

    That is amusing, since you'd think the whole point of equal pay is that gender don't enter into it. In theory, yadda yadda yadda.
    Probably put that in there as TERF bait. Switching genders to take advantage of legal protections is one of those things they think is a thing.

    Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
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    Alistair HuttonAlistair Hutton Dr EdinburghRegistered User regular
    klemming wrote: »
    Mr Jack told the Commons the reforms would have an adverse impact on single sex clubs, associations and schools and protections such as equal pay.
    What? How?

    See my link to the "full" reasoning. It is stunningly spurious.

    I have a thoughtful and infrequently updated blog about games http://whatithinkaboutwhenithinkaboutgames.wordpress.com/

    I made a game, it has penguins in it. It's pay what you like on Gumroad.

    Currently Ebaying Nothing at all but I might do in the future.
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    Redcoat-13Redcoat-13 Registered User regular
    If the Tories win again......
    I will give up on this stupid country. Who votes for the people actively punching you in the dick??

    The old.

    PSN Fleety2009
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    japanjapan Registered User regular
    klemming wrote: »
    So if the Tory's decision here is not entirely legally sound, can Scotland, I dunno, take it up in court or something? Pass the law anyway?

    Or does England simply have the right to veto any Scottish, Welsh, or Northern Irish law it feels like?

    We're going to find out:
    Nicola Sturgeon says gender reform row will go to court
    I'm not going to quote most of it, but:
    Mr Jack told the Commons the reforms would have an adverse impact on single sex clubs, associations and schools and protections such as equal pay.
    What? How?

    There are a few statutory requirements relating to how you calculate equal pay disclosures in relation to trans people, there are also things like public bodies in Scotland being required to seek gender parity in the makeup of governance boards.

    It may or may not surprise you to know that how this interacts with the equality act has been extensively litigated already

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    Alistair HuttonAlistair Hutton Dr EdinburghRegistered User regular
    edited January 2023
    Co-convenor of out for indy analysing the letter



    They accurately detect that the basis of the complaint is the existence of GRCs not because of any provision in the GRR

    Alistair Hutton on
    I have a thoughtful and infrequently updated blog about games http://whatithinkaboutwhenithinkaboutgames.wordpress.com/

    I made a game, it has penguins in it. It's pay what you like on Gumroad.

    Currently Ebaying Nothing at all but I might do in the future.
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    Alistair HuttonAlistair Hutton Dr EdinburghRegistered User regular
    To give the short version Tom Gordon, political editor of the Herald and a man who absolutely loathes and detests the SNP says


    UKGov statement on GRRB S35 order seems thin. No killer blow. Mostly boils down to scale, and more folk getting GRCs under Scots law. Hard to see how GRRB can be changed to satisfy UKGov other than by axing key changes. UKGov prefers GRC threshold that is 'very hard to meet'

    I have a thoughtful and infrequently updated blog about games http://whatithinkaboutwhenithinkaboutgames.wordpress.com/

    I made a game, it has penguins in it. It's pay what you like on Gumroad.

    Currently Ebaying Nothing at all but I might do in the future.
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    danxdanx Registered User regular
    What the fuck is that garbage about IT systems?
    Existing IT infrastructure only allows one legal sex on any record and cannot change the marker for 16 to 17 year olds. Those responsible for these systems consider that it may be unmanageable, even with considerable time and expense, to build system capability to manage a dual identity for the same individual if someone’s legal sex could be different in Scots law and the law for England and Wales.

    :grimace: This whole thing just sounds like throwing everything they could think of in to see if it sticks.

    Remember when the UK was considering GRA reform, like 5 years ago, and it got shit canned? :angry:

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    klemmingklemming Registered User regular
    danx wrote: »
    What the fuck is that garbage about IT systems?
    Existing IT infrastructure only allows one legal sex on any record and cannot change the marker for 16 to 17 year olds. Those responsible for these systems consider that it may be unmanageable, even with considerable time and expense, to build system capability to manage a dual identity for the same individual if someone’s legal sex could be different in Scots law and the law for England and Wales.

    :grimace: This whole thing just sounds like throwing everything they could think of in to see if it sticks.

    Remember when the UK was considering GRA reform, like 5 years ago, and it got shit canned? :angry:

    Speaking as a developer, when asked a question about can our system do [thing], my answer is generally "No, it can't. To make it do that, I'd have to... hmm, and I'd have to change... Okay, I can probably have it done by- when do we need it by?". I mean, that's just instinct by this point. After that I'll start to actually think about it.
    But also speaking as a developer, it sounds like the easiest solution would be to change the law here so the legal gender is the same everywhere! I'm glad I spotted that, that saved a lot of time all round. Hard to believe they haven't thought of that, really.

    Nobody remembers the singer. The song remains.
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    evilthecatevilthecat Registered User regular
    my dudes this is the government that stored COVID infection information in an excel sheet and ran out of columns.
    This is the government that blasted through 22 billion pounds for a test and trace app program that didn't work.

    Computers are basically arcane magic to these stella artois boofing numpties.

    tip.. tip.. TALLY.. HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
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    danxdanx Registered User regular
    evilthecat wrote: »
    my dudes this is the government that stored COVID infection information in an excel sheet and ran out of columns.
    This is the government that blasted through 22 billion pounds for a test and trace app program that didn't work.

    Computers are basically arcane magic to these stella artois boofing numpties.

    I get that, it just sounds ridiculous to even list it to me. It was also one of the least stupid things in the document.

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    monikermoniker Registered User regular
    evilthecat wrote: »
    my dudes this is the government that stored COVID infection information in an excel sheet and ran out of columns.
    This is the government that blasted through 22 billion pounds for a test and trace app program that didn't work.

    Computers are basically arcane magic to these stella artois boofing numpties.

    So what you're telling me here is that transpeople are actually a date field?

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    Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    moniker wrote: »
    evilthecat wrote: »
    my dudes this is the government that stored COVID infection information in an excel sheet and ran out of columns.
    This is the government that blasted through 22 billion pounds for a test and trace app program that didn't work.

    Computers are basically arcane magic to these stella artois boofing numpties.

    So what you're telling me here is that transpeople are actually a date field?

    Not that kind of dating

    I mean, usually?

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    TastyfishTastyfish Registered User regular
    edited January 2023
    moniker wrote: »
    evilthecat wrote: »
    my dudes this is the government that stored COVID infection information in an excel sheet and ran out of columns.
    This is the government that blasted through 22 billion pounds for a test and trace app program that didn't work.

    Computers are basically arcane magic to these stella artois boofing numpties.

    So what you're telling me here is that transpeople are actually a date field?

    There's no standardised place to put the "D"? This is going to be a nightmare! Lets just assign everyone a sex one at a time starting from just after midnight Dec 31st 1899 on a first come first served basis, trust me, it'll be a lot easier in the long run. I would prefer to be considered 36410 but to be honest I'm still discovering myself so might settle for a later number.

    Tastyfish on
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    danxdanx Registered User regular
    The governments proposed conversion therapy ban will include a ban on trans conversion therapy after previously stating it would not. That sounds good but they have a lot of "concerns" that might water down trans specific protections and they don't have the best record here. They had also dropped plans for the ban last year so yeah.

    I expect the debate around trans protection will be terrible, especially from the usual terfs, but some form of the conversion ban will pass eventually. Well I hope at least.

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    Brovid HasselsmofBrovid Hasselsmof [Growling historic on the fury road] Registered User regular
    Love waking up to a text from my friend that just says "I'm sorry the Tories are so shit".

    No wait I hate everything about it.

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    klemmingklemming Registered User regular
    Train strikes: Cheaper to settle, minister admits
    Rail strikes have cost the UK more than settling the disputes months ago would have, rail minister Huw Merriman has said.

    The strikes have cost the UK more than £1bn, he conceded to a committee of MPs.

    However, he said accepting the rail unions pay demands would have set a precedent for other public sector pay disputes.
    This is the entire purpose of strikes, no?
    However, Mr Merriman added that if the government had settled with rail workers last year, it would have set a precedent for other public sector pay disputes.

    "We have to look at what teachers are being given, and what nurses are being given as well," he said.
    So close to getting it. Well, no. Not that close.

    Nobody remembers the singer. The song remains.
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    AegisAegis Fear My Dance Overshot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered User regular
    "It would have set a precedent! Who knows what could have happened?

    Why, we might have been forced to also settle these other public sector pay disputes for less of a cost than if they, too, had gone on strike! Can you imagine?"

    We'll see how long this blog lasts
    Currently DMing: None :(
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    tzeentchlingtzeentchling Doctor of Rocks OaklandRegistered User regular
    "It's okay though. If we gave into the union demands, *we* would have had to pay more. This way, *you lot* are the ones losing money."

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    RazielMortemRazielMortem Registered User regular
    I see the government is heading to another Brexit cliff edge because thousands of EU laws that make our government work are set to expire. And the government haven't even bothered to catalogue them. Instead they just want the power for the minister to say what the law is. Even human garden gnome David Davis thinks this is 'a bad thing'.

    This seems fine....

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    Alistair HuttonAlistair Hutton Dr EdinburghRegistered User regular
    I'm not saying the UK governments S35 reasoning is absolutely terrible but I'm now approvingly sharing Tom Gordon editorials and nodding enthusiastically at Alex Cole-Hamilton interviews.

    I have a thoughtful and infrequently updated blog about games http://whatithinkaboutwhenithinkaboutgames.wordpress.com/

    I made a game, it has penguins in it. It's pay what you like on Gumroad.

    Currently Ebaying Nothing at all but I might do in the future.
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