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The [Elden Ring] Thread - Shadow of the Erdtree Announced!

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    knitdanknitdan In ur base Killin ur guysRegistered User regular
    Certain areas are a lot smaller on subsequent visits especially if you’re not picking up every little item

    “I was quick when I came in here, I’m twice as quick now”
    -Indiana Solo, runner of blades
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    ElendilElendil Registered User regular
    edited February 2023
    knitdan wrote: »
    I’ve not been all that impressed by the phalanx spells tbh. The time it takes to cast them is usually better taken up casting something else in my limited experience

    So far all I have in that category are the starter sword phlanx and the greatsword one
    i can't speak for the sorcery but the weapon art version is legit. still stance breaks like crazy. it's one of the main ones i run on my magic character.

    Elendil on
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    Moridin889Moridin889 Registered User regular
    knitdan wrote: »
    I’ve not been all that impressed by the phalanx spells tbh. The time it takes to cast them is usually better taken up casting something else in my limited experience

    So far all I have in that category are the starter sword phlanx and the greatsword one

    The weapon arts are the better versions of the spells.

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    cB557cB557 voOOP Registered User regular
    Butters wrote: »
    cB557 wrote: »
    Butters wrote: »
    Phalanx spells are great for baiting and do a ton of stun damage.
    Huh, like they're good at causing that little flinch on hit, or they're good at causing full on poise breaks that you can riposte?

    The second one. Sorry for the confusion.
    The way you phrased it did sound more like poise breaks, I just thought I might've misunderstood since I that sorcery didn't look the sort to have good poise damage. But then again, when plinking stuff with the normal glintblade I was surprised by how often I'd get a poise break. I wonder if just that whole family has surprisingly solid poise damage?

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    BahamutZEROBahamutZERO Registered User, Moderator mod
    Also what's the deal with calling it a beeline anyway? Bees do not fly in very straight lines, in my experience!

    And how about that airplane food. Why don't they just make all the food out of the black box?!

    I am always hearing about how honeybees can give direction and distance information to food sources with a butt wiggle dance

    BahamutZERO.gif
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    Ninja Snarl PNinja Snarl P My helmet is my burden. Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered User regular
    Bees loaded up on nectar and pollen are (relatively) heavy so they've got to take the most efficient path home, which is generally a straight line. "Beelining" is actually following loaded-up wild bees to their home to collect the hive, so the word is more about following the straight-ish path a bee takes home than about the path itself. Which can be a difficult task, since bees can fly over all the shit we have to walk through and the hive can be up in trees or in walls and places like that.

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    jungleroomxjungleroomx It's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovels Registered User regular
    Related: There is a Wo Long demo out for everyone I believe. Pulling it down on Steam right now

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    knitdanknitdan In ur base Killin ur guysRegistered User regular
    edited February 2023
    I hate hate hate fighting Putrid Avatars

    Especially the one in NE Caelid near Lenne’s Rise

    Mostly because you have to fight the terrain as well

    On the other hand, I did beat him

    And I am loving the ridiculous magic Looney Tunes hammer

    knitdan on
    “I was quick when I came in here, I’m twice as quick now”
    -Indiana Solo, runner of blades
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    AvalonGuardAvalonGuard Registered User regular
    The Avatar moveset is so comfy because I’ve been fighting it for so long.

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    cB557cB557 voOOP Registered User regular
    Putrid avatars fucked me up for a while because for some reason I decided that that rot splash was 360 degrees instead of just the front arc.

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    ElendilElendil Registered User regular
    cB557 wrote: »
    Putrid avatars fucked me up for a while because for some reason I decided that that rot splash was 360 degrees instead of just the front arc.

    yeah i only realized this watching a streamer fight one

    now that i know, they're easy to deal with

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    WhelkWhelk Registered User regular
    Elendil wrote: »
    cB557 wrote: »
    Putrid avatars fucked me up for a while because for some reason I decided that that rot splash was 360 degrees instead of just the front arc.

    yeah i only realized this watching a streamer fight one

    now that i know, they're easy to deal with

    Yeah, I totally knew this too and am not shocked and annoyed at myself at all

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    cB557cB557 voOOP Registered User regular
    Oh good, I was sure that was just me.
    Elendil wrote: »
    cB557 wrote: »
    Putrid avatars fucked me up for a while because for some reason I decided that that rot splash was 360 degrees instead of just the front arc.

    yeah i only realized this watching a streamer fight one

    now that i know, they're easy to deal with
    For me it was when someone in here posted a video of themself fighting one.

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    manwiththemachinegunmanwiththemachinegun METAL GEAR?! Registered User regular
    It's not "LOL chaos is so fun lets burn it all down for funsies"

    It's "Chaos take the world, because it is not worth saving. This structure exists to uplift the nobility at the expense of the endless torture and suffering of the common people. Let it all burn down, and maybe something worthwhile can rise from the remains." It's closer to the Put Out the Flame ending from DS3 than anything. Within the context of the current state of the Lands Between, this is actually a compelling cause.

    It's kinda crazy they cut the Nomad stuff. Most other endings have motivation, and the Frenzied Flame ending needs more than "lol so random XD",

    No, it absolutely is the former. It's just prettied up with nice words. It's the classic Fromsoft trap of, "Do you trust this character who will obviously betray you? Y/N."

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    MegaMan001MegaMan001 CRNA Rochester, MNRegistered User regular
    I can't speak to what was intended. But I absolutely interpreted it as the latter and that's why I chose that ending

    I am in the business of saving lives.
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    KamarKamar Registered User regular
    edited February 2023
    Like, did y'all not talk to Melina at the various points heading in that direction?
    1niricnbw9c5.png

    It's the former.

    Or you can get it straight from the source if you don't trust that opinion.
    e6tnw8sq3chj.png

    Burn it all, life and individuals were a mistake, your goal is to reduce everything to one again forever.

    Keeping in mind that Hyetta is almost assuredly the same entity as Shabriri, just using Irina's corpse instead of Yura's, so she's preaching nihilism in the face of despair but this is active manipulation by an outer god or some representative of it.

    Kamar on
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    ElendilElendil Registered User regular
    edited February 2023
    i love how insubstantial melina's argument is

    hyetta: the souls of the damned guided me here and cry out for the succor of nonexistence. free them from their torment
    melina: i just think babies are neat

    10/10 no notes

    Elendil on
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    MegaMan001MegaMan001 CRNA Rochester, MNRegistered User regular
    I did and I disagree with her slash don't particularly trust her?

    I am in the business of saving lives.
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    knitdanknitdan In ur base Killin ur guysRegistered User regular
    Endings
    Regardless of how you feel about the Frenzied Flame ending, the whole questline is a massive pain in the ass for very little in-game payoff.

    I only did it to get the trophy

    Personally I consider Ranni’s to be the best ending but that may be because I liked the underground areas the best and her questlines send you there.

    Nagging questions
    -Who is Melina?
    -What relation does she have to other NPCs?
    -What is “the plan” for lack of a better term? (Marika/Radagon’s plan, that is)
    -Knighty Mcknightface says something to the effect of “a Tarnished can never sit on the Elden Throne” ok so what’s your alternative buddy? Just let everyone suffer forever because the demigods all fucked off to who knows where and/or went crazy?
    -where did the Omens come from? Why are there multiple Morgotts/Margitts and Mohgs?
    -who are Those Who Live In Death? Zombies? I thought they were a fancy name for the Tarnished but I kind of doubt that now
    -why do you get sent to Crumbling Farum Azula immediately after the Erdtree is kindled? Other than “its a new area to mess around in”
    -what precisely is Farum Azula? Some kind of dragon graveyard from the looks of it, but for what purpose?
    -who is the Goderick you find in the Atlus Evergaol? A failed clone or twin? A banished runt? Something else?
    -if you let the Dung Eater free, who re-imprisons him later?
    [/spoiler

    “I was quick when I came in here, I’m twice as quick now”
    -Indiana Solo, runner of blades
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    KamarKamar Registered User regular
    edited February 2023
    I mean, the message explicitly from the source is
    that they want you to to pull off the greatest murder-suicide of all time because nonexistence is better than life. Not a redo, life and consciousness were a mistake.

    And it's especially dubious even if you're nihilistic enough to agree since there's a good chance the girl trying to convince you this is good is lying about who she is and is just an outer god in the corpse of the dead girl from Castle Morne, trying to profit from you burning shit, same as the rot god and the pests eager for rot, the current state of affairs with the Greater Will and the Golden Order, etc.

    Hence why Ranni taking her order and its outer god/moon influence and taking it all away to bear the burden alone is probably the best the world is going to get.

    Kamar on
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    BahamutZEROBahamutZERO Registered User, Moderator mod
    knitdan wrote: »
    Endings
    Regardless of how you feel about the Frenzied Flame ending, the whole questline is a massive pain in the ass for very little in-game payoff.

    I only did it to get the trophy

    Personally I consider Ranni’s to be the best ending but that may be because I liked the underground areas the best and her questlines send you there.

    Nagging questions
    -Who is Melina?
    -What relation does she have to other NPCs?
    -What is “the plan” for lack of a better term? (Marika/Radagon’s plan, that is)
    -Knighty Mcknightface says something to the effect of “a Tarnished can never sit on the Elden Throne” ok so what’s your alternative buddy? Just let everyone suffer forever because the demigods all fucked off to who knows where and/or went crazy?
    -where did the Omens come from? Why are there multiple Morgotts/Margitts and Mohgs?
    -who are Those Who Live In Death? Zombies? I thought they were a fancy name for the Tarnished but I kind of doubt that now
    -why do you get sent to Crumbling Farum Azula immediately after the Erdtree is kindled? Other than “its a new area to mess around in”
    -what precisely is Farum Azula? Some kind of dragon graveyard from the looks of it, but for what purpose?
    -who is the Goderick you find in the Atlus Evergaol? A failed clone or twin? A banished runt? Something else?
    -if you let the Dung Eater free, who re-imprisons him later?
    -it is mysterious, and it is weird how Melina kind of resembles Ranni's (doll's) facial features, just with the opposite side eyes closed and tattooed, but this is never commented upon as far as I know, Melina has nothing to say regarding Ranni or her quest nor vice-versa.
    -see above
    -dunno!
    -that's just like, his opinion, man, probably
    -The Omens are children of Marika who were born deformed because of exposure to the crucible, basically a demigod version of the misbegotten folks. The crucible knights seem to also possibly be misbegotten because of their crucible connection. The crucible seems like it's the core of the Erdtree or something? The source of life and growth and evolution.
    -Those Who Live In Death are the undead, whether skeletons or walking corpses or weirder shit, basically. The concept of Undead is different in this game than in the Souls games.
    -dunno
    -Farum Azula seems like the ruins of an era from before the Erdtree to me, where dragons ruled over beastmen, and Marika conquered them, but I'm not really sure.
    -I don't worry too much about the misspelled names of reused bosses, I think they're not trying to do Lore with them, just an excuse to reuse a boss fight.
    -shrug

    BahamutZERO.gif
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    ElendilElendil Registered User regular
    edited February 2023
    got my dragon incant/war cry berserker build up to malenia, the last one that still needs to do it

    this is the worst possible build in the universe oh my god

    everything is slow as shit and trades or whiffs, the stun lock on the charge of the R2 simply fails to work, the tracking can't keep up with her

    i have a pocket Bloody Helice if it comes down to it, but i'd really like to make the gimmicks on this gimmick build work

    edit: laffo never mind, i was using the wrong weapon. couldn't hit shit with the pike war cry R2, but the flamberge one is borderline cheese

    Elendil on
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    mrpakumrpaku Registered User regular
    edited February 2023
    knitdan wrote: »
    Endings
    Regardless of how you feel about the Frenzied Flame ending, the whole questline is a massive pain in the ass for very little in-game payoff.

    I only did it to get the trophy

    Personally I consider Ranni’s to be the best ending but that may be because I liked the underground areas the best and her questlines send you there.

    Nagging questions
    -Who is Melina?
    -What relation does she have to other NPCs?
    -What is “the plan” for lack of a better term? (Marika/Radagon’s plan, that is)
    -Knighty Mcknightface says something to the effect of “a Tarnished can never sit on the Elden Throne” ok so what’s your alternative buddy? Just let everyone suffer forever because the demigods all fucked off to who knows where and/or went crazy?
    -where did the Omens come from? Why are there multiple Morgotts/Margitts and Mohgs?
    -who are Those Who Live In Death? Zombies? I thought they were a fancy name for the Tarnished but I kind of doubt that now
    -why do you get sent to Crumbling Farum Azula immediately after the Erdtree is kindled? Other than “its a new area to mess around in”
    -what precisely is Farum Azula? Some kind of dragon graveyard from the looks of it, but for what purpose?
    -who is the Goderick you find in the Atlus Evergaol? A failed clone or twin? A banished runt? Something else?
    -if you let the Dung Eater free, who re-imprisons him later?
    [/spoiler

    Most of this is pure conjecture on my part;
    - A surviving, amnesciac fragment of the Gloam Eyed Queen (original possessor of the Black God Killing Flame; Empyrean; "killed" long ago), that's been convinced it's Marika's "daughter". Like Radagon/Marika, Melina is a weird, mirrored version of the Gloam Eyed Queen. If you use her as kindling, she sacrifices herself; if you burn the world, she remembers what she is (opens her eye) and is coming for you

    - I think she was the Ice Witch that taught Ranni, which is why the Ranni Doll and her look so alike (Melina's face for Cold Sorcery/Multiple Astel arms for moon magic). Further, I think Melina is the one who gave Ranni the inkling of stealing the Death Rune and using it to break her fate (since, as the original God of Death in the Lands Between, she'd have been there "when the old magic was written")

    - Guide the Demigods into a permanent stalemate, (making the Erdtree get desperate enough to recall the Tarnishes as potential Elden Lord replacements), guide whichever Tarnished gets there towards the Frenzied Flame Forge to burn the tree (to wound and distract), then put the Tarnished in a position to reclaim the shard of Destined Death Maliketh has so you can use it to slay the Elden Beast - anything to end the cycle and put humanity back in charge of their own destiny

    - By the time you've burned the tree and nearly brought everything to the brink, I don't think Gideon Ofnir thought slaying the Elden Beast and freeing humanity was actually possible - he'd come to the conclusion that whoever took the throne would just be another servant of the Outer Will, so all mankind could do was learn to love the endless struggle of trying to get out from under, Sisyphus style (sort of like how some Catholics consider suffering their "holy duty"). Basically, it broke him

    - Omens come from the Crucible (the original Great Tree in the Lands Between, before it got parasited by the Outer Will). They were associated closely with beast-like features, horns/antlers, and were considered holy and tied to the land (until the Golden Order decided to try to completely erase the original Tree from history, and subsequently declared war on anything/anyone associated with the Crucible). Whether through the Crucible or their divine heritage (or maybe both), Mohg and Morgott seem to be able to "bud" duplicates of themselves

    - The Undead...zombies, skeletons, ghosts. Dead in body, but tied to and part of the land like fungal growth or stagnant water is part of a swamp, due to their presence being because of Goodwyn the Golden (The New God of Death; dead in spirit but not body; buried in the roots of the old Great Tree and seeping across the land like a sickness)

    - Crumbling Farm Azula seems to an exile/ maybe escape for those who pose some sort of danger/ideaolgical threat to the Golden Order. It's tied to dragons, werebeasts, and Marika's people (all who came before/were running things before the Outer Will showed up), and seems to exist outside of time somehow. You go there to retrieve a sliver of the rune of Destined Death from Maliketh, because without it it wouldn't matter how strong you were, you wouldn't be able to kill a God (ie. Radagon or the Elden Beast)

    - Older sibling or relative: Godrick was the last in a long, long line of "so distantly related to "Godfrey, First Elden Lord", it barely even matters anymore", which is why he was such a pathetic tryhard and why the whole line was juicin' with grafting Tarnished

    - Probably Morgott? He seems to be the most in charge of Leyendell, and the most likely to consider Dung Eater's "curse the whole world" deal intolerable, given his own self-hating-Omen-Golden-Order-ass-kisser thing

    mrpaku on
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    manwiththemachinegunmanwiththemachinegun METAL GEAR?! Registered User regular
    Ok and yeah, the Golden Order is corrupt, very very obvious. There literally is a ending where you fix it so it IS fair.

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    KamarKamar Registered User regular
    edited February 2023
    Ok and yeah, the Golden Order is corrupt, very very obvious. There literally is a ending where you fix it so it IS fair.

    Well.
    You 'fix' it so that its gods will perfectly reflect the Golden Order without thought or will.

    Since the Greater Will and its direct representatives are sketchy to begin with, this doesn't strike me as particularly great.

    Kamar on
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    KalnaurKalnaur I See Rain . . . Centralia, WARegistered User regular
    The only way to have an order that endures for eternity is to take away any and all ability to choose, to think, to decide even the smallest thing.

    The Greater Will is a yoke put around their world to cow and control it.

    But it's not like the rot or the dead or the cursed or the flame or the cold of night offer the best choices either. It's just a matter of which type of control you're willing to impose on a world that's already heading for a bad end.

    But then, that's the usual From ending.

    I make art things! deviantART: Kalnaur ::: Origin: Kalnaur ::: UPlay: Kalnaur
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    KamarKamar Registered User regular
    I wonder
    if Ranni wanting to head out to space with you instead of sticking around to rule as god-queen is completely acceptable to whatever will of the moon she's embodying.

    Like 'distant mysterious force that exerts its influence in more subtle ways instead of ruling/corrupting/infecting/etc' fits for the moon, I think?

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    mrpakumrpaku Registered User regular
    Kalnaur wrote: »
    The only way to have an order that endures for eternity is to take away any and all ability to choose, to think, to decide even the smallest thing.

    The Greater Will is a yoke put around their world to cow and control it.

    But it's not like the rot or the dead or the cursed or the flame or the cold of night offer the best choices either. It's just a matter of which type of control you're willing to impose on a world that's already heading for a bad end.

    But then, that's the usual From ending.
    Age of Fracture- Status-quo ending; you've fixed literally nothing, and next time the Outer Will gets irritated/bored, humanity is right back on the chopping block, and you probably get exiled from the Lands Between like Horah Loux did

    Age of Duskborn- Fix death's absence in the great cycle by completely blurring the lines between life and death (even more than they already are), freeing people from the tree's forced resurrection but permanently stranding them in a cold, unfeeling limbo when they die/get claimed by the deathrot. The "the gates of hell have been opened and the dead have returned" option

    Age of Order- Fix everyone having freedom (and using it improperly) by creating the most perfect fascism, completely subverting free will and turning humanity into unthinking cogs in the Golden Order's machine. The Borg option

    Blessing of Despair- Fix prejudice by cursing and disfiguring everyone and their children the same, eventually turning all of humanity into nightmare-addled, tumor ridden hulks in order to "level the board" (like humanity wouldn't come up with brand new reasons to hate in that time).

    Frenzied Flame- "Fix" things being unfair in the Lands Between and the game being rigged by breaking everything out of spite, declaring sentient life a mistake and attempting to personally wipe it all out (although, Melina's presence suggests it didn't work, at least not 100%). The "flip the board and ruin everyone's nice afternoon because you lost at Monopoly" option

    Age of Duskborn- The "Gods" ruin everything they touch- instead of deciding who gets to drive humanity's future, you grab the car keys, throw them into the lake, and just leave. Humanity is now at the mercy of at least four Outer Gods that want to rule it/eat it for breakfast, but it's their problem now, and at least they're free to choose their own path forward

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    NaphtaliNaphtali Hazy + Flow SeaRegistered User regular
    mrpaku wrote: »
    Kalnaur wrote: »
    The only way to have an order that endures for eternity is to take away any and all ability to choose, to think, to decide even the smallest thing.

    The Greater Will is a yoke put around their world to cow and control it.

    But it's not like the rot or the dead or the cursed or the flame or the cold of night offer the best choices either. It's just a matter of which type of control you're willing to impose on a world that's already heading for a bad end.

    But then, that's the usual From ending.
    Age of Duskborn- The "Gods" ruin everything they touch- instead of deciding who gets to drive humanity's future, you grab the car keys, throw them into the lake, and just leave. Humanity is now at the mercy of at least four Outer Gods that want to rule it/eat it for breakfast, but it's their problem now, and at least they're free to choose their own path forward

    I assume you're talking about a different ending there
    Age of Stars?

    I don't think it necessarily leaves the door open to the other outer gods in this ending any moreso than they're already active in the current age (Ranni still takes the power of the Goddess, so I suppose if anything the Greater Will is supplanted by the Dark Moon's influence), but I guess it's open to interpretation.

    Steam | Nintendo ID: Naphtali | Wish List
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    DanHibikiDanHibiki Registered User regular
    on the Marika/Radagon relation
    Not sure how the whole split personality thing works, but they seem to be completely different people sharing the same body.

    Marika wanted out of the Golden order, and if things went her way the Ring would be completely shattered, and the world would go back to being "normal".
    Radagon ain't havn' it though, so he and his beast re-bind what's left of the Ring and shackles Marika to it.

    Omens are a curse, anyone cursed can't be re-incarnated by the tree. I kind of read it as "nature" trying to take over and trying to restore some balance.

    Mohg and Morgott copies:
    They seem to have a lot of illusion magic going. Mohg escaped his under ground jail some time ago and left an illusion down there, like a pile of pillows in your bed, except when you try and wake it up it gets up and kicks your ass.
    Morgott shows up as Margit, worst disguise ever, and either teleports away or was an illusion the whole time, not sure.

    Those Who Live In Death are the 'natural' form or undeath in the land between. This is presumably what used to happen to the dead before the golden order came and started feeding all the dead to the trees.

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    mrpakumrpaku Registered User regular
    Naphtali wrote: »
    mrpaku wrote: »
    Kalnaur wrote: »
    The only way to have an order that endures for eternity is to take away any and all ability to choose, to think, to decide even the smallest thing.

    The Greater Will is a yoke put around their world to cow and control it.

    But it's not like the rot or the dead or the cursed or the flame or the cold of night offer the best choices either. It's just a matter of which type of control you're willing to impose on a world that's already heading for a bad end.

    But then, that's the usual From ending.
    Age of Duskborn- The "Gods" ruin everything they touch- instead of deciding who gets to drive humanity's future, you grab the car keys, throw them into the lake, and just leave. Humanity is now at the mercy of at least four Outer Gods that want to rule it/eat it for breakfast, but it's their problem now, and at least they're free to choose their own path forward

    I assume you're talking about a different ending there
    Age of Stars?

    I don't think it necessarily leaves the door open to the other outer gods in this ending any moreso than they're already active in the current age (Ranni still takes the power of the Goddess, so I suppose if anything the Greater Will is supplanted by the Dark Moon's influence), but I guess it's open to interpretation.
    Yes, meant Age in Stars on that last one!

    Removing the Great Runes, I think, would eventually take the Outer Will out of the game in the Lands Between, killing the trees and their influence, but: the Formless Mother is still out there somewhere (even if you killed Mohg, maybe possessing Miquela); Malenia is still blooming into a Rot God (even if you killed her), Shabriri can resurrect seemingly forever and almost already won once (through Vyke)...plus Godfrey and the Crucible are still theoretically affecting things in subtle ways (although, I think with the trees dying, Deathrot and the Crucible would diminish as well)

    As awful as the Golden Order dictatorship was, it was holding enemies at the gates who are gonna take advantage of the fact that mankind is on their own now. I very much got the impression that Ranni was throwing mankind in the metaphorical deep end, hoping they learn to "swim" on their own

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    DanHibikiDanHibiki Registered User regular
    edited February 2023
    mrpaku wrote: »
    Naphtali wrote: »
    mrpaku wrote: »
    Kalnaur wrote: »
    The only way to have an order that endures for eternity is to take away any and all ability to choose, to think, to decide even the smallest thing.

    The Greater Will is a yoke put around their world to cow and control it.

    But it's not like the rot or the dead or the cursed or the flame or the cold of night offer the best choices either. It's just a matter of which type of control you're willing to impose on a world that's already heading for a bad end.

    But then, that's the usual From ending.
    Age of Duskborn- The "Gods" ruin everything they touch- instead of deciding who gets to drive humanity's future, you grab the car keys, throw them into the lake, and just leave. Humanity is now at the mercy of at least four Outer Gods that want to rule it/eat it for breakfast, but it's their problem now, and at least they're free to choose their own path forward

    I assume you're talking about a different ending there
    Age of Stars?

    I don't think it necessarily leaves the door open to the other outer gods in this ending any moreso than they're already active in the current age (Ranni still takes the power of the Goddess, so I suppose if anything the Greater Will is supplanted by the Dark Moon's influence), but I guess it's open to interpretation.
    Yes, meant Age in Stars on that last one!

    Removing the Great Runes, I think, would eventually take the Outer Will out of the game in the Lands Between, killing the trees and their influence, but: the Formless Mother is still out there somewhere (even if you killed Mohg, maybe possessing Miquela); Malenia is still blooming into a Rot God (even if you killed her), Shabriri can resurrect seemingly forever and almost already won once (through Vyke)...plus Godfrey and the Crucible are still theoretically affecting things in subtle ways (although, I think with the trees dying, Deathrot and the Crucible would diminish as well)

    As awful as the Golden Order dictatorship was, it was holding enemies at the gates who are gonna take advantage of the fact that mankind is on their own now. I very much got the impression that Ranni was throwing mankind in the metaphorical deep end, hoping they learn to "swim" on their own
    well, there is the god Vaccine
    r4pq5b2bqhns.png

    DanHibiki on
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    NaphtaliNaphtali Hazy + Flow SeaRegistered User regular
    age of stars
    I got more of the vibe that Ranni was taking the power and peacing out from the world, and all the outer gods that still want access to it are now out of luck. So if she takes it and leaves the other outer gods' ability to reshape the landscape without access to their champion becoming Elden Lord is limited and humanity gets a reprieve, but that kind of depends on the outer god involved as to how effective that will be I think.

    I think in general, most of the endings fit very much into the normal From Software vibe of "Are you winning, son?"

    Steam | Nintendo ID: Naphtali | Wish List
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    KamarKamar Registered User regular
    edited February 2023
    DanHibiki wrote: »
    on the Marika/Radagon relation
    Not sure how the whole split personality thing works, but they seem to be completely different people sharing the same body.

    Marika wanted out of the Golden order, and if things went her way the Ring would be completely shattered, and the world would go back to being "normal".
    Radagon ain't havn' it though, so he and his beast re-bind what's left of the Ring and shackles Marika to it.

    Omens are a curse, anyone cursed can't be re-incarnated by the tree. I kind of read it as "nature" trying to take over and trying to restore some balance.

    Mohg and Morgott copies:
    They seem to have a lot of illusion magic going. Mohg escaped his under ground jail some time ago and left an illusion down there, like a pile of pillows in your bed, except when you try and wake it up it gets up and kicks your ass.
    Morgott shows up as Margit, worst disguise ever, and either teleports away or was an illusion the whole time, not sure.

    Those Who Live In Death are the 'natural' form or undeath in the land between. This is presumably what used to happen to the dead before the golden order came and started feeding all the dead to the trees.

    Going to try to cover Marika, Melina, Omens, and Death stuff as best I can in a big ramble cuz why not. Some of this is more confirmed some is more speculative feel free to challenge any point and I'll try to back it up. Just going to spoiler the lot so I don't have to think about where to draw lines.
    Omens and Misbegotten are tied to the Crucible, the power of life linked to the Great Tree, the tree which became the Erdtree via parasitization by the Elden Beast that the Greater Will dropped on the Lands Between. Whether it's just its power leaking through into random entities as the Golden Order weakens or a curse for revenge is unknown imo.

    Hoarah Loux is also likely tied to the Crucible, and probably the lord that most Crucible Knights follow, as hinted at by that one tweet driplet of lore.

    Marika wants out of the Golden Order. She likes her husband well enough. The GW hates him, probably because it knows he's a threat as the agent of the power it usurped. He gets kicked out along with a bunch of others (Tarnished) to go do stuff in other lands. Radagon slotted in as lord. Not going to go into that too much since I'm conflicted on the nature of Radagon, except to say that he's very much a GW loyalist unlike Marika despite their shared body.

    Marika is fine with this, though, and expects Hoarah Loux and the tarnished to go get stronger in exile and come back in time for the fireworks. She's already planning to break shit and have him come pick up the pieces with newfound strength.

    It's unsurprising that the various children of this agent of the Crucible have a tendency to showcase the curse/outbreak of powers related to said Crucible. The nature of powerful Omens does seem to involve weird duplicate body shenanigans, but that's not elaborated on much anywhere.

    Anyway, let's just keep going. Marika's plan to trash things involves Godwyn getting killed with a fragment of Destined Death, which Malekith is holding since they took it out of the Golden Order OR wasn't holding at first but took custody of after defeating the Godskins (if they were using DD after the GO was formed). Either way, he took it off the Gloam-Eyed Queen and prevented her remaining Godskins from using death as a weapon at full power. Whether she's a child of Marika (which strongly suggests she's in some way Melina) or a rival from her first play for the throne is unclear, as is the timeline and specific motivations for pulling Death out of the Order, so lots of speculation here.

    Anyway Ranni acquires the fragment and gives the Black Knives the oomph they need to do the job, the assassins are probably linked to Marika but this is also muddled, but Ranni has her own plan as someone who is probably being groomed to be Marika 2.0 by the GW now that it's dissatisfied with her. She kills her body at the same time Godwyn gets got, resulting in that little bit of Death only killing her body and his soul.

    If you've played through her route and seen the debates over translations and whatnot what happens next with Ranni is probably well-tread ground so I won't repeat it.

    Godwyn's flesh lives on without a soul, becoming that nightmare thing down in the roots, spreading deathroot through the Erdtree's roots to all over the Lands Between, and causing Those Who Live In Death (much like the way he lives in death) to pop up. The face down under Stormveil Castle is just like, a false image from this process of his gross cursedness leaking through everything.

    What else...oh right, Melina. Touched on it before, but Melina is very likely a daughter of Marika in some sense. This is in-game from her dialogue about being born and sent out by her mother to do her task, but like, she's labeled as such in files, so take that information how you will.

    She's talking about Destined Death coming for you and has a weird fancy eye in the Chaos ending if she didn't die, which makes it pretty obvious to link her to the Gloam-Eyed/Dusk-Eyed Queen, the Empyrean the Godskins served.

    Kamar on
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    DanHibikiDanHibiki Registered User regular
    Kamar wrote: »
    DanHibiki wrote: »
    on the Marika/Radagon relation
    Not sure how the whole split personality thing works, but they seem to be completely different people sharing the same body.

    Marika wanted out of the Golden order, and if things went her way the Ring would be completely shattered, and the world would go back to being "normal".
    Radagon ain't havn' it though, so he and his beast re-bind what's left of the Ring and shackles Marika to it.

    Omens are a curse, anyone cursed can't be re-incarnated by the tree. I kind of read it as "nature" trying to take over and trying to restore some balance.

    Mohg and Morgott copies:
    They seem to have a lot of illusion magic going. Mohg escaped his under ground jail some time ago and left an illusion down there, like a pile of pillows in your bed, except when you try and wake it up it gets up and kicks your ass.
    Morgott shows up as Margit, worst disguise ever, and either teleports away or was an illusion the whole time, not sure.

    Those Who Live In Death are the 'natural' form or undeath in the land between. This is presumably what used to happen to the dead before the golden order came and started feeding all the dead to the trees.

    Going to try to cover Marika, Melina, Omens, and Death stuff as best I can in a big ramble cuz why not. Some of this is more confirmed some is more speculative feel free to challenge any point and I'll try to back it up. Just going to spoiler the lot so I don't have to think about where to draw lines.
    Omens and Misbegotten are tied to the Crucible, the power of life linked to the Great Tree, the tree which became the Erdtree via parasitization by the Elden Beast that the Greater Will dropped on the Lands Between. Whether it's just its power leaking through into random entities as the Golden Order weakens or a curse for revenge is unknown imo.

    Hoarah Loux is also likely tied to the Crucible, and probably the lord that most Crucible Knights follow, as hinted at by that one tweet driplet of lore.

    Marika wants out of the Golden Order. She likes her husband well enough. The GW hates him, probably because it knows he's a threat as the agent of the power it usurped. He gets kicked out along with a bunch of others (Tarnished) to go do stuff in other lands. Radagon slotted in as lord. Not going to go into that too much since I'm conflicted on the nature of Radagon, except to say that he's very much a GW loyalist unlike Marika despite their shared body.

    Marika is fine with this, though, and expects Hoarah Loux and the tarnished to go get stronger in exile and come back in time for the fireworks. She's already planning to break shit and have him come pick up the pieces with newfound strength.

    It's unsurprising that the various children of this agent of the Crucible have a tendency to showcase the curse/outbreak of powers related to said Crucible. The nature of powerful Omens does seem to involve weird duplicate body shenanigans, but that's not elaborated on much anywhere.

    Anyway, let's just keep going. Marika's plan to trash things involves Godwyn getting killed with a fragment of Destined Death, which Malekith is holding since they took it out of the Golden Order. I like the idea that at least part of this has to do with the Gloam-Eyed Queen and her Godskins using death as a weapon. Whether she's a child of Marika (which strongly suggests she's in some way Melina) or a rival from her first play for the throne is unclear, as is the timeline and specific motivations for pulling Death out of the Order, so lots of speculation here.

    Anyway Ranni acquires the fragment and gives the Black Knives the oomph they need to do the job, the assassins are probably linked to Marika but this is also muddled, but Ranni has her own plan as someone who is probably being groomed to be Marika 2.0 by the GW now that it's dissatisfied with her. She kills her body at the same time Godwyn gets got, resulting in that little bit of Death only killing her body and his soul.

    If you've played through her route and seen the debates over translations and whatnot what happens next with Ranni is probably well-tread ground so I won't repeat it.

    Godwyn's flesh lives on without a soul, becoming that nightmare thing down in the roots, spreading deathroot through the Erdtree's roots to all over the Lands Between, and causing Those Who Live In Death (much like the way he lives in death) to pop up. The face down under Stormveil Castle is just like, a false image from this process of his gross cursedness leaking through everything.

    What else...oh right, Melina. Touched on it before, but Melina is very likely a daughter of Marika in some sense. This is in-game from her dialogue about being born and sent out by her mother to do her task, but like, she's labeled as such in files, so take that information how you will.

    She's talking about Destined Death coming for you and has a weird fancy eye in the Chaos ending if she didn't die, which makes it pretty obvious to link her to the Gloam-Eyed/Dusk-Eyed Queen, the Empyrean the Godskins served.
    it's implied that Those who walk in death have been around long before the Golden Order came around. Deathbirds, ghost flame and the Mariners aren't directly related to Godwyn.
    They seem to be connected to yet another outer god, who sent the Deathbirds as Envois, and the Mariners tend to hang around ancient grave yards that have been there before the Golden Order and the Erdtree burial rights.
    There's a bunch of ancient spells as well that have been around for ages which suggests that all this stuff was the norm before the Golden Order came round and declared it heresy. Godwyn might now be becoming a Lord of that outer god in the same way that he was a Lord for the Golden Order.

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    KamarKamar Registered User regular
    edited February 2023
    Farum Azula stuff since I forgot
    Farum Azula is an extremely ancient place with some time nonsense going on. Placidusax, the hidden boss of the area, was an Elden Lord before the time of the Erdtree, worshipped by beasts. Possibly associated with the Crucible, though maybe predating even that or representing a rival power? Worth noting that he has several severed heads already, which ties into lore about five and three and two related to Beast stuff and Fingers and the gaining of intelligence in the time before the Erdtree. I've never heard or developed a solid theory to piece this all together right but it's one of my favorite things to think on in the lore.

    Anyway, whatever the specific ties and history, Beast dudes in the present day seem to be slaves of the GW used as shadows for their favored Empyreans (Maliketh and Blaidd for Marika and Ranni). Maliketh seems to be there to try to reclaim Destined Death, maybe before it's tied to his origins, maybe because of the time stuff going on there? Who knows. That's why you're there, though, to kill him and set Destined Death free from his body so the Erdtree can burn in black flames and your divine final bosses can die with no caveats.

    Presumably you end up there as part of whatever ritual you undertake at the kiln. It's certainly an odd thing you just have to handwave. Since Gurranq and Maliketh can somehow be interacted with seperately, it's likely that all of Farum Azula is out of time instead of just Placidusaxx arena, and anyone seeking Destined Death with the right efforts will end up there to fight him there, where he is and always has been. Stupid time nonsense.
    DanHibiki wrote: »
    Kamar wrote: »
    DanHibiki wrote: »
    on the Marika/Radagon relation
    Not sure how the whole split personality thing works, but they seem to be completely different people sharing the same body.

    Marika wanted out of the Golden order, and if things went her way the Ring would be completely shattered, and the world would go back to being "normal".
    Radagon ain't havn' it though, so he and his beast re-bind what's left of the Ring and shackles Marika to it.

    Omens are a curse, anyone cursed can't be re-incarnated by the tree. I kind of read it as "nature" trying to take over and trying to restore some balance.

    Mohg and Morgott copies:
    They seem to have a lot of illusion magic going. Mohg escaped his under ground jail some time ago and left an illusion down there, like a pile of pillows in your bed, except when you try and wake it up it gets up and kicks your ass.
    Morgott shows up as Margit, worst disguise ever, and either teleports away or was an illusion the whole time, not sure.

    Those Who Live In Death are the 'natural' form or undeath in the land between. This is presumably what used to happen to the dead before the golden order came and started feeding all the dead to the trees.

    Going to try to cover Marika, Melina, Omens, and Death stuff as best I can in a big ramble cuz why not. Some of this is more confirmed some is more speculative feel free to challenge any point and I'll try to back it up. Just going to spoiler the lot so I don't have to think about where to draw lines.
    Omens and Misbegotten are tied to the Crucible, the power of life linked to the Great Tree, the tree which became the Erdtree via parasitization by the Elden Beast that the Greater Will dropped on the Lands Between. Whether it's just its power leaking through into random entities as the Golden Order weakens or a curse for revenge is unknown imo.

    Hoarah Loux is also likely tied to the Crucible, and probably the lord that most Crucible Knights follow, as hinted at by that one tweet driplet of lore.

    Marika wants out of the Golden Order. She likes her husband well enough. The GW hates him, probably because it knows he's a threat as the agent of the power it usurped. He gets kicked out along with a bunch of others (Tarnished) to go do stuff in other lands. Radagon slotted in as lord. Not going to go into that too much since I'm conflicted on the nature of Radagon, except to say that he's very much a GW loyalist unlike Marika despite their shared body.

    Marika is fine with this, though, and expects Hoarah Loux and the tarnished to go get stronger in exile and come back in time for the fireworks. She's already planning to break shit and have him come pick up the pieces with newfound strength.

    It's unsurprising that the various children of this agent of the Crucible have a tendency to showcase the curse/outbreak of powers related to said Crucible. The nature of powerful Omens does seem to involve weird duplicate body shenanigans, but that's not elaborated on much anywhere.

    Anyway, let's just keep going. Marika's plan to trash things involves Godwyn getting killed with a fragment of Destined Death, which Malekith is holding since they took it out of the Golden Order. I like the idea that at least part of this has to do with the Gloam-Eyed Queen and her Godskins using death as a weapon. Whether she's a child of Marika (which strongly suggests she's in some way Melina) or a rival from her first play for the throne is unclear, as is the timeline and specific motivations for pulling Death out of the Order, so lots of speculation here.

    Anyway Ranni acquires the fragment and gives the Black Knives the oomph they need to do the job, the assassins are probably linked to Marika but this is also muddled, but Ranni has her own plan as someone who is probably being groomed to be Marika 2.0 by the GW now that it's dissatisfied with her. She kills her body at the same time Godwyn gets got, resulting in that little bit of Death only killing her body and his soul.

    If you've played through her route and seen the debates over translations and whatnot what happens next with Ranni is probably well-tread ground so I won't repeat it.

    Godwyn's flesh lives on without a soul, becoming that nightmare thing down in the roots, spreading deathroot through the Erdtree's roots to all over the Lands Between, and causing Those Who Live In Death (much like the way he lives in death) to pop up. The face down under Stormveil Castle is just like, a false image from this process of his gross cursedness leaking through everything.

    What else...oh right, Melina. Touched on it before, but Melina is very likely a daughter of Marika in some sense. This is in-game from her dialogue about being born and sent out by her mother to do her task, but like, she's labeled as such in files, so take that information how you will.

    She's talking about Destined Death coming for you and has a weird fancy eye in the Chaos ending if she didn't die, which makes it pretty obvious to link her to the Gloam-Eyed/Dusk-Eyed Queen, the Empyrean the Godskins served.
    it's implied that Those who walk in death have been around long before the Golden Order came around. Deathbirds, ghost flame and the Mariners aren't directly related to Godwyn.
    They seem to be connected to yet another outer god, who sent the Deathbirds as Envois, and the Mariners tend to hang around ancient grave yards that have been there before the Golden Order and the Erdtree burial rights.
    There's a bunch of ancient spells as well that have been around for ages which suggests that all this stuff was the norm before the Golden Order came round and declared it heresy. Godwyn might now be becoming a Lord of that outer god in the same way that he was a Lord for the Golden Order.

    I think there's a difference between certain things dying and not dying as they do when Death is or isn't part of the rules of the world, and Those Who Live In Death, the result of a very specific contradiction of life and death under a certain set of rules, but I also did forget to account for the pre-Order death rules stuff in my account. Give me a moment to refresh on that stuff and I'll agree or disagree. But I suspect you're right and that it's definitely possible that Godwyn is acting as the starting point for another Outer God leak through the broken Golden Order.

    edit: I can't find a source for Mariners being unrelated, especially since they drop Deathroot when killed.

    As far as death birds, yeah, them and ghostflame in general seem to be related to earlier death stuff.
    I see stuff saying that burning bodies in ghostflame raised spirits in times of old, and that in the time before the Erdtree, 'death was burned in ghostflame'. Burning things with ghostflame releases vengeful spirits from the cinders. Ghostflame colored stuff attracts spirits. The ghostflame torch suggests that burning corpses gave the Fallen Hawks ghostflame and 'sealed their fate as dwellers of the underground for all eternity'.

    They never seem to be referred to as Those Who Live In Death, though. Honestly looking at Fallen Hawk Soldiers and their descriptions I could believe they're still technically alive, that 'death was burned in ghostflame' means that it's an unholy way to live forever as freaks and not making them 'undead' per se.

    The Death Ritual spear also refers to a distant resurrection for loyal priests, so yeah, I'm leaning towards them being associated with necromancy of the 'play with spirits and desecrate corpses for power' style, but not perhaps the kind of zombies and Those Who Live In Death we see stemming from Godwyn.

    Kamar on
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    DanHibikiDanHibiki Registered User regular
    edited February 2023
    pretty good video on the subject
    https://youtu.be/N0fBLJYQ1Dc

    edit:
    D seems to belong to a rather well established order of Hunters of the Dead, so it stands to reason that Those who walk in death have been a constant nuisance for at least as long as the golden order was around and didn't just spring up after Godwyn the golden got killed. Hell most of the Golden Orders spells are designed to kill Undead, and specifies for killing Those who walk in death.

    Godskins' magic also reveals that there was indiscriminate death prior to the forging of the ring, and after it all their death spells got seriously nerfed, so maybe they started popping up after that?

    As for resurrection magic, take your pick. There's like 32 flavors of getting resurrected, though most of them tend to be for rich ass holes only.

    DanHibiki on
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    manwiththemachinegunmanwiththemachinegun METAL GEAR?! Registered User regular
    edited February 2023
    It's no different than say, Armored Core 4A, where all the endings are various flavors of misery.

    You crushed the Rebels! Yay! Now everyone on Earth can slowly die from Kojima poisoning while the Corporations rule unchecked.
    You defeated the League! Yay! Space freedom! But the Raven traitors and Omer (villains from the first game) are unpunished and get exactly want they want.
    Want to bring real change to the world! Yay! Kill 100 million people, then butcher everyone sent after you in revenge.

    You know, happy uplifting stuff.

    manwiththemachinegun on
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    KamarKamar Registered User regular
    edited February 2023
    DanHibiki wrote: »
    pretty good video on the subject
    https://youtu.be/N0fBLJYQ1Dc

    edit:
    D seems to belong to a rather well established order of Hunters of the Dead, so it stands to reason that Those who walk in death have been a constant nuisance for at least as long as the golden order was around and didn't just spring up after Godwyn the golden got killed. Hell most of the Golden Orders spells are designed to kill Undead, and specifies for killing Those who walk in death.

    Godskins' magic also reveals that there was indiscriminate death prior to the forging of the ring, and after it all their death spells got seriously nerfed, so maybe they started popping up after that?

    As for resurrection magic, take your pick. There's like 32 flavors of getting resurrected, though most of them tend to be for rich ass holes only.

    Those Hunters and their magics are an outgrowth of Golden Order fundamentalism, there's no need for any special development to make magics which enforce the Golden Order work especially well against those who explicitly defy it.

    All of the spells are described thus, as incantations of the Golden Order fundamentalists which are used by Hunters of Those Who Live In Death.

    cknd4tg5l7kj.png

    Also
    AFAIK the only one we know is D, who sends you to Maliketh seeking the Deathroot so he can get back the Destined Death that he lost in the plot to kill Godwyn, which certainly doesn't suggest they predate Godwyn.

    Kamar on
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    TransporterTransporter Registered User regular
    Ohhh, Marika and Radagon talk!
    I think the key to understanding Marika’s situation is Ranni and her questline(And Blaithe too!.)

    Ranni killed her body as it was as it was pumped with the Golden Order’s godjuice via Marika, as she did not want to be under the influence of the Two Fingers and the Erdtree. And I believe this was in the very literal sense.

    The Golden Order is able to hijack it’s servants you see, as Blaithe was a creation of the Golden Order, they are able to turn off his free will and send him after Ranni(partially cause Blaithe is a BOSS.) if she betrays them, as explained by the giant blacksmith.

    Similarly, I believe Radagon was originally just fun times for Marika, they were the same, yet different, until Marika realized that whoops the Erdtree is bad, actually. Since she was an Empryean, the Golden Order just subsumed the Radagon identity and puppeted it into attempting to repair the Elden Ring.

    I say Radagon was completely subsumed due to the final boss fight, in which the entire Elden Ring is clearly visible INSIDE the broken husk of Radagon, and the Elden Beast literally turning Radamarika into a sword to fight you in the end. A bit on the nose but eh.

    But yeah, as others pointed out Marika actually planned for this eventuality and sent away the Tarnished and Horah Loux to be her salvation in the end, with her wish being to have something, anything else commendeer the power of the Elden Ring other than the outer god that sent the Elden Beast and empowered her in the first place, as it’s quite literally a parasite.

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