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[D&D/d20 Discussion] WotC Presents: Milque & Toast

DenadaDenada Registered User regular
edited May 21 in Critical Failures
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For millions of years, humanity has relied on the humble d20 to resolve every manner of conflict imaginable. No other type of dice roll has the same kind of reliability, randomness, granularity, predictability, and probability as taking a single twenty-sided die, rolling it, and adding some other number to that number. Sometimes you subtract a number, but science has shown us that subtracting a number is actually the same thing as adding a negative number. Also, not adding anything is actually the same as adding zero, which is a number, so don't think you've found a loophole there. There's always adding.

Many companies and creators have come along over the years to harness the great and terrible power of the d20. There are probably as many d20-based games as there are atoms in the universe, but realistically there's no possible way to know that for sure. Anyway here are some d20 games:

In this thread we talk about D&D and all of the other games that are at least kinda like it. It's still mostly D&D discussion but it's all fair game here.

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    override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited February 2023
    So in conclusion, casters are not overpowered because I already used my 9th level slot turning a kuo toa into a frilly pink dress and my simulacrum is working as an accountant in Athkatla

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    TastyfishTastyfish Registered User regular
    edited February 2023
    Without wanting to sound like a broken record, the solution to the out of combat Caster vs Martial imbalance is 2nd editions old rules of Fighter's getting a keep at level 9 extended out.
    Thieves have their guilds, Clerics their temples and shrines, rangers can set up a network of rangers.

    Each class in a high level game then has some odd tricks to play, whether it is charms, teleportation or scrying for the casters vs blackmail, feudal obligations and access or being the first person to learn of everything important happening out in the wilderness. It also really helps the DM build out the world and opens up a ton of quick one shots that can be slotted in whilst you're writing the next big chapter of the campaign and gives the PCs some stuff to spend money on without wanting magic item shops.

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    CaedwyrCaedwyr Registered User regular
    A5E actually taking a look at how each class is able to participate in the different aspects of the game and not making everything centred around just the combat is something I really appreciate.

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    Endless_SerpentsEndless_Serpents Registered User regular
    I think it would be funny to design a magic class that plays like a barbarian, to run parallel with a more complex feat and manoeuvre based fighter from some of these newer derivative systems.

    Game host: Okay Saria, it’s your turn, what do you do?

    Saria: I go berserk, then I hit them with fire! Then I hit them with fire again!

    Game host: Well I mean you’ve done that every turn so far, how about—

    Saria: No. I hit them with fire two times.

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    webguy20webguy20 I spend too much time on the Internet Registered User regular
    Honestly i think that the dnd based systems just need a ping hard look at their ability score and skill states now that rp and other out of combat interactions are a much larger part of the Meta compared to when the game was focused mostly on Dungeon delving and cha was the goto dump stat.

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    TastyfishTastyfish Registered User regular
    I think it would be funny to design a magic class that plays like a barbarian, to run parallel with a more complex feat and manoeuvre based fighter from some of these newer derivative systems.

    Game host: Okay Saria, it’s your turn, what do you do?

    Saria: I go berserk, then I hit them with fire! Then I hit them with fire again!

    Game host: Well I mean you’ve done that every turn so far, how about—

    Saria: No. I hit them with fire two times.

    Nice to see someone using Metamagic adept to reflavour Eldritch Blast

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    Endless_SerpentsEndless_Serpents Registered User regular
    edited February 2023
    I think the smoothest choice is not to make a D&D based game, but this is perhaps not the thread…

    Been on an old school trip this month actually. I’m doodling away at a miniature roleplaying game I’m calling Hounskull (after the silly helmet).

    My main through line is “What if abstract roleplaying skills switched to combat abilities when in combat?” How that works I have no idea. But it’d be nice to have +2 Acrobatics = Can move through occupied spaces.

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    UncleSporkyUncleSporky Registered User regular
    https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2023/02/hasbro-slapped-by-bank-of-america-for-destroying-customer-goodwill.html
    Bank of America has once again stated that Hasbro continues to “underperform” while destroying customer goodwill.

    Hasbro has come under fire recently, leading Bank of America to once again reiterate the “Underperform” rating for the toy giant. In a report by Business Insider, Bank of America called out Wizards of the Coast’s recent troubles as destroying customer goodwill, stating that the company might face a steep decline if that trend continued.

    This of course, follows in the wake of the recent OGL leaks and backpedaling, resulting in the SRD 5.1 being released into Creative Commons.

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    Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    Regarding out of combat effectiveness of casters versus martials, 4E's approach was to make all out of combat spells be rituals that took 10 minutes to multiple hours to complete. It's not exactly the best way to do things since Knock taking longer to cast than an attack spell that hurtles a target through a portal to the Nine Hells before returning them is kinda silly, but RAW it made a Rogue using Thieves' Tools much more effective than a Wizard casting Knock.

    They also introduced martial practices in one book, which were basically a non-magical counterpart to rituals, but they never expanded on them and they kind of stepped on the toes of skills.

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    UncleSporkyUncleSporky Registered User regular
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    Regarding out of combat effectiveness of casters versus martials, 4E's approach was to make all out of combat spells be rituals that took 10 minutes to multiple hours to complete. It's not exactly the best way to do things since Knock taking longer to cast than an attack spell that hurtles a target through a portal to the Nine Hells before returning them is kinda silly, but RAW it made a Rogue using Thieves' Tools much more effective than a Wizard casting Knock.

    They also introduced martial practices in one book, which were basically a non-magical counterpart to rituals, but they never expanded on them and they kind of stepped on the toes of skills.

    That's not a very good solution for the same reason that long rests regaining resources aren't a very good solution. It's up to the DM to decide whether 8 hours pass for free and thus overpower those who refill on resources constantly, or whether there's a real penalty for resting and you risk crippling the players who need those resources (or force them to agonize over every spell cast and slow down your game).

    A DM could just decide that the hour it takes to cast a ritual is glossed over in one sentence, or they could roll 6 times to see if wandering monsters stroll by, depending on what's codified or their own preferences.

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    WearingglassesWearingglasses Of the friendly neighborhood variety Registered User regular
    I want to incentivize players in another upcoming campaign to use the lesser known lineages. What's something good enough but not too good?

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    Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    edited February 2023
    Keys from the Golden Vault impressions video, with a particular emphasis on reviewing a museum heist adventure.
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=e2Nah54Osrc

    EDIT: Unrelated, but very good:

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QbgYM39j8Mc

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    The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    This is again why i like how ICON does it - a hard split between Narrative play and Tactical play, with a big emphasis on refluffing things. There's no strength attribute, there's just the Smash skill. There's no dex - There's just Traverse and Excel. No constitution, there's just Endure. And you can flavor this shit however you want - Traverse can be "I just bloody teleported", or even flew - Especially in Chapter II/Chapter III

    Does it get a little funky when your character can teleport around the battlefield in tactical play, but cannot (strictly speaking - you can actually get narrative abilites that let you do it) do that in narrative play? Sure, a bit. But there's plenty of ways to hand wave it, and ICON is again super explicit on the fact it is not trying to simulate everything - It's instead trying to be a good, robust game.

    You're never going to solve the martial/caster divide until you actually have good answers for why there's a divide in the first place (Tonally, it's somewhat incoherent). Something like ICON's chapter system, or 4E's Tiers, where each band of levels represents an active step up in capability, including that of skills would be a starting point.

    The other problem is the spell system is trying to do too many things, and DnD feels like it tends to operate on a restrictive rather than permissive model (That is "You can only do this thing if the text explicitly says you can", rather than "Oh, that sounds cool, go for it")

    Ideas hate it when you anthropomorphize them
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    GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    Tastyfish wrote: »
    Without wanting to sound like a broken record, the solution to the out of combat Caster vs Martial imbalance is 2nd editions old rules of Fighter's getting a keep at level 9 extended out.
    Thieves have their guilds, Clerics their temples and shrines, rangers can set up a network of rangers.

    Each class in a high level game then has some odd tricks to play, whether it is charms, teleportation or scrying for the casters vs blackmail, feudal obligations and access or being the first person to learn of everything important happening out in the wilderness. It also really helps the DM build out the world and opens up a ton of quick one shots that can be slotted in whilst you're writing the next big chapter of the campaign and gives the PCs some stuff to spend money on without wanting magic item shops.

    This has huge narrative problems and also doesn’t work. Like. Why does a fighter get this? We know why a mage gets spells. Buy why the fighter? Why isn’t the mage granted a keep for their troubles? What if the mage lives at the “fighters” keep?

    If there are no magic item shop and the wizard isn’t spending money scribing scrolls* then they have the same amount of money.

    *because it’s only the wizard who really has this problem to any degree. They’re the only ones who get the world bending spells in a way that matter and even then… it’s a lot of cost and prep

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    UncleSporkyUncleSporky Registered User regular
    edited February 2023
    Goumindong wrote: »
    Tastyfish wrote: »
    Without wanting to sound like a broken record, the solution to the out of combat Caster vs Martial imbalance is 2nd editions old rules of Fighter's getting a keep at level 9 extended out.
    Thieves have their guilds, Clerics their temples and shrines, rangers can set up a network of rangers.

    Each class in a high level game then has some odd tricks to play, whether it is charms, teleportation or scrying for the casters vs blackmail, feudal obligations and access or being the first person to learn of everything important happening out in the wilderness. It also really helps the DM build out the world and opens up a ton of quick one shots that can be slotted in whilst you're writing the next big chapter of the campaign and gives the PCs some stuff to spend money on without wanting magic item shops.

    This has huge narrative problems and also doesn’t work. Like. Why does a fighter get this? We know why a mage gets spells. Buy why the fighter? Why isn’t the mage granted a keep for their troubles? What if the mage lives at the “fighters” keep?

    If there are no magic item shop and the wizard isn’t spending money scribing scrolls* then they have the same amount of money.

    *because it’s only the wizard who really has this problem to any degree. They’re the only ones who get the world bending spells in a way that matter and even then… it’s a lot of cost and prep

    Because in that edition, it's an inherent part of what training up in that class means and is building towards.

    If it just happens out of nowhere, that's a fault of the roleplaying to take into account your own class features. It'd be the same as saying "I don't know why my rogue can backstab, my character has never trained in such underhanded tactics." It means whatever you're envisioning doesn't match with the core concept of "rogue" in that edition.

    A wizard gets spells because they have spent a significant part of their life studying, at the exclusion of other pursuits. If their backstory doesn't support that, then they'll need to come up with a different rationalization. Likewise, a fighter gets a keep because they have spent a significant part of their life building connections and doing favors that will eventually result in getting a keep and a selection of loyal underlings. If their backstory doesn't support that...y'know.

    Presumably, a wizard does not pursue a keep by default because as part of their study they've learned that it will not be necessary, since they will be able to cast Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion daily. Of course a player might go out of their way to accumulate wealth and buy one for themselves anyway, but that's outside of the scope of what is built into the class by design.



    Putting this another way: there's an officially-licensed Alien horror RPG. Logically, the world of Alien should be much bigger than the subject matter of the films. You ought to be able to go and live a long and fruitful life on some far-flung world using all of the technology of the era. But because this game is about Alien, you're probably gonna play as a colonial marine or a Weyland stooge, and you're probably gonna encounter a xenomorph.

    But why? How does it make sense that any stories told in this system will inevitably end up as a first or early encounter with something as rare as a xenomorph? Because the fiction bends to suit what the parameters of the setting require. Everyone at the table is buying in to this premise.

    I feel like fighters getting keeps as a core class feature is similar to that. I think if it becomes hard to rationalize when the time comes, then you haven't properly laid the groundwork for what everyone has known would be coming for 8 levels.

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    SmrtnikSmrtnik job boli zub Registered User regular
    There is always the contrarians. "I want to play a fighter that casts fireballs and finds weapons icky." Cool, you can't do that here, but you're welcome to find another table or run your own game. "I ignore the other PCs as they say they will help the town with their goblin problem and instead play a card game with the innkeeper". Cool, now roll up a character that doesn't ignore, or find another table or run your own game. I have 0 time in my life for contrarians.

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    DracomicronDracomicron Registered User regular
    I mean, everyone in 1e got a base of some sort except for the ranger (who got awesome monster followers if lucky) when hitting "name" level or thereabouts. Clerics got a temple, druids got a grove, magic-users got a tower, and thieves got their own guild.

    It definitely supposed a pre-determined career path and had little concern for character specifics (to the point that Gygax's own thief character, Gord the Rogue, didn't feature his own guild in the fiction despite being "fights gods" powerful by the end of his career).

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    GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    Goumindong wrote: »
    Tastyfish wrote: »
    Without wanting to sound like a broken record, the solution to the out of combat Caster vs Martial imbalance is 2nd editions old rules of Fighter's getting a keep at level 9 extended out.
    Thieves have their guilds, Clerics their temples and shrines, rangers can set up a network of rangers.

    Each class in a high level game then has some odd tricks to play, whether it is charms, teleportation or scrying for the casters vs blackmail, feudal obligations and access or being the first person to learn of everything important happening out in the wilderness. It also really helps the DM build out the world and opens up a ton of quick one shots that can be slotted in whilst you're writing the next big chapter of the campaign and gives the PCs some stuff to spend money on without wanting magic item shops.

    This has huge narrative problems and also doesn’t work. Like. Why does a fighter get this? We know why a mage gets spells. Buy why the fighter? Why isn’t the mage granted a keep for their troubles? What if the mage lives at the “fighters” keep?

    If there are no magic item shop and the wizard isn’t spending money scribing scrolls* then they have the same amount of money.

    *because it’s only the wizard who really has this problem to any degree. They’re the only ones who get the world bending spells in a way that matter and even then… it’s a lot of cost and prep

    Because in that edition, it's an inherent part of what training up in that class means and is building towards.

    If it just happens out of nowhere, that's a fault of the roleplaying to take into account your own class features. It'd be the same as saying "I don't know why my rogue can backstab, my character has never trained in such underhanded tactics." It means whatever you're envisioning doesn't match with the core concept of "rogue" in that edition.

    Yes but "i have a skill" is an integral part of a character. "i have money" is not.

    A wizard gets spells because they have spent a significant part of their life studying, at the exclusion of other pursuits. If their backstory doesn't support that, then they'll need to come up with a different rationalization. Likewise, a fighter gets a keep because they have spent a significant part of their life building connections and doing favors that will eventually result in getting a keep and a selection of loyal underlings. If their backstory doesn't support that...y'know.

    So sorcerers should get keeps?
    Presumably, a wizard does not pursue a keep by default because as part of their study they've learned that it will not be necessary, since they will be able to cast Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion daily. Of course a player might go out of their way to accumulate wealth and buy one for themselves anyway, but that's outside of the scope of what is built into the class by design.

    So your wizard can roleplay away your fighter bonuses?

    Putting this another way: there's an officially-licensed Alien horror RPG. Logically, the world of Alien should be much bigger than the subject matter of the films. You ought to be able to go and live a long and fruitful life on some far-flung world using all of the technology of the era. But because this game is about Alien, you're probably gonna play as a colonial marine or a Weyland stooge, and you're probably gonna encounter a xenomorph.

    But why? How does it make sense that any stories told in this system will inevitably end up as a first or early encounter with something as rare as a xenomorph? Because the fiction bends to suit what the parameters of the setting require. Everyone at the table is buying in to this premise.

    I feel like fighters getting keeps as a core class feature is similar to that. I think if it becomes hard to rationalize when the time comes, then you haven't properly laid the groundwork for what everyone has known would be coming for 8 levels.

    This is, quite exactly, my point. If you're playing DnD then it does not make sense that fighters get keeps and that wizards are poor. This is not what you do in DnD. That is neither how the fluff nor the system works. You're over here saying "well this is an alien game but you can't play as a marine and there are no xenomorphs"


    ----

    The thing is that very few games i have actually played, including multiple games above 15 level feature situations in which the wizard (if we have one) "solved" the situation with a spell. And most of the times this happens this it isn't even a spell that you would write as being one of those.

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    UncleSporkyUncleSporky Registered User regular
    edited February 2023
    Goumindong wrote: »
    Yes but "i have a skill" is an integral part of a character. "i have money" is not.

    "I have money" can absolutely be a defining factor of a character. Lots of games have explicit backgrounds for being poor or being rich. I liked the Noble talent in Star Wars Saga where every time you leveled up, you straight up got 5,000 credits x your level, due to ongoing long-term investments. That's a resource like any other, and it implies something about your character as codified by the rules. Bethesda's upcoming game Starfield has a trait to have living parents and a nice home you can go back and visit, but a portion of your money is deducted from what you earn that you send back to them. Even so, that's a mild form of wealth/value which defines part of your character. That's perfectly fine.

    Having any resources your character can draw upon represents something you've invested your time in for a personal benefit. That doesn't have to be represented as a physical skill.
    So sorcerers should get keeps?

    If the game designers believe a keep ought to be offered to sorcerers as a resource/balancing factor, then yes. If instead they think a sorcerer is roughly equivalent to a wizard in resources they can already draw on, then they can design the class in such a way to imply other pursuits that any representative sorc has invested their time in instead.

    I mean, I assume you would agree with this. If you truly believe that all sorcs have been handed their magic on a silver platter and have therefore been able to spend their time doing whatever they want, then why would that be limited to social investments? Why aren't they all trained to backstab? Why haven't they picked up a bunch of martial training with various weapons? In the interest of balance, the fiction must dictate that no sorcerers spent their time picking up other classes' skills. Whether you like it or not, part of your backstory was decided for you. If you got your magic for free and have done no training, then inherently you must've wasted a lot of your time on frivolous pursuits, or been indisposed/languished, or lived a basic subsistence life, etc.
    So your wizard can roleplay away your fighter bonuses?

    As much as any class can roleplay away others' bonuses. A fighter could "roleplay away" the wizard's bonuses by murdering him, or burning his spellbook, or stealing his component pouch, or asking the DM for permission to train in cantrips, or learn to cast from scrolls, etc. None of that is a good idea. Likewise, if it's not codified by the rules that the wizard attracts followers, then they're going to have to ask the DM's permission, and they're able to say no.

    A good DM will work toward keeping any player from overshadowing another, and as discussed, the ability to automatically attract followers and form an organization for everyone but wizards is a powerful resource to draw on. If those rules go ignored by the DM or the player because they consider it too much of a headache to manage, then of course the martials will be lacking even more than they ought to be.

    There are entire games built around the idea of having contacts and an organization you can draw on. If the rules don't say you get access to an organization, then good luck. If the DM gives you one anyway, then expect the other players to feel a bit miffed.
    This is, quite exactly, my point. If you're playing DnD then it does not make sense that fighters get keeps and that wizards are poor. This is not what you do in DnD. That is neither how the fluff nor the system works. You're over here saying "well this is an alien game but you can't play as a marine and there are no xenomorphs"

    It is what happens in D&D if that's what's codified by the system. If the rules say that fighters get keeps and the wizards don't, then the fiction necessarily bends to support that. For the same reason the fiction bends to make sure xenomorphs show up in Alien, or all rogues know how to backstab, or all clerics serve a god, or all monks must maintain a vow of poverty. You can try to play as a greedy monk if you want, but that's not what the rules say.

    When you say it's not how it works, that comes from a flawed understanding that the rules somehow promise that the DM won't be required to generate NPCs whole cloth to support a class feature. But they don't say that anywhere. You can look right under the fighter entry and see the class feature right there. That means that all fighters have been building up those connections in the course of their lives, whether it happened explicitly at the table or not, like every other class feature.

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    Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    edited February 2023
    Paramount Pictures has closed a multi-year first look deal with the directors of the D&D movie. I don't know a lot about how the movie industry works, but I've read this is apparently a huge sign of confidence in the upcoming movie.

    Source

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    DarmakDarmak RAGE vympyvvhyc vyctyvyRegistered User regular
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    Paramount Pictures has closed a multi-year first look deal with the directors of the D&D movie. I don't know a lot about how the movie industry works, but I've read this is apparently a huge sign of confidence in the upcoming movie.

    Source

    Those dumb fuckers

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    DarmakDarmak RAGE vympyvvhyc vyctyvyRegistered User regular
    Those absolute rubes

    JtgVX0H.png
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    DarmakDarmak RAGE vympyvvhyc vyctyvyRegistered User regular
    Those complete buffoons

    JtgVX0H.png
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    WearingglassesWearingglasses Of the friendly neighborhood variety Registered User regular
    What I want the new 5e alternatives to do:

    - come up with a better term for the nonmagical counterpart of the spell attack (the ranged spell attack and melee spell attack), so that melee weapon attack and attack with a melee weapon will no longer be confusing.
    - make the advantage / disadvantage situation with darkness spells better / more intuitive.
    - make Surprise more easily grokked.

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    TastyfishTastyfish Registered User regular
    edited February 2023
    Goumindong wrote: »
    Tastyfish wrote: »
    Without wanting to sound like a broken record, the solution to the out of combat Caster vs Martial imbalance is 2nd editions old rules of Fighter's getting a keep at level 9 extended out.
    Thieves have their guilds, Clerics their temples and shrines, rangers can set up a network of rangers.

    Each class in a high level game then has some odd tricks to play, whether it is charms, teleportation or scrying for the casters vs blackmail, feudal obligations and access or being the first person to learn of everything important happening out in the wilderness. It also really helps the DM build out the world and opens up a ton of quick one shots that can be slotted in whilst you're writing the next big chapter of the campaign and gives the PCs some stuff to spend money on without wanting magic item shops.

    This has huge narrative problems and also doesn’t work. Like. Why does a fighter get this? We know why a mage gets spells. Buy why the fighter? Why isn’t the mage granted a keep for their troubles? What if the mage lives at the “fighters” keep?

    If there are no magic item shop and the wizard isn’t spending money scribing scrolls* then they have the same amount of money.

    *because it’s only the wizard who really has this problem to any degree. They’re the only ones who get the world bending spells in a way that matter and even then… it’s a lot of cost and prep

    It's D&D so it'll come with a hefty dose of "you do what you want", but with a 'generic fantasy' setting the obvious thing is that it's easier to train fighters than wizards (even more so with Sorcerors). Again going back to the older editions once you start to make a name for yourself you're likely to get people seeking you out (students and scholars for the Wizards, smiths, squires and mercenaries for the Fighters).

    It's up to the players to decide what they want to pursue this path, but the higher ranking NPCs will be taking note of this increasingly famous warrior, especially if they start to accumulate an armed company with them (even if the PCs are just happy to have these guys carry stuff and guard the camp/wagon whilst they go into the dungeon). They might not even care if the PCs turn the guys away, all the local noble needs to hear is that peasants are leaving the farm or foreign mercenaries have been seen crossing their lands to join this band the Party is now an issue they need to get out in front of.

    Wizards and Sorcerers are a concern, you want them on your side but the threat of alchemical accidents, summoning gone awry and experimental magical mishaps. Give them a grant of land at the edge of your domain, away from the more valuable parts, appoint them 'Royal Astronomer' and send some peasants to build their tower/observatory like Tycho Brahe's island. By magic item shop I mean places that sell items, not jewellers and alchemists that sell components. Nothing wrong with the latter joining the observatory/academy to take the headache out of more common and some rarer components - but the books definitely work from the idea that you generally can't just buy items from a conventional trader and need to be earned through quests.

    Clerics should hopefully be kept in check by their Order (who hopefully speak on the side of the Establishment), but if they're a new religion best get those heretics out from under the local's noses and treat them like wizards.

    Rogues by nature don't attract as much attention, and we're not worried so much about them training up peasants with the basic weapons they likely know how to use already. The people who are interested in them are the thieves guilds and underground networks, or if they are a little more flashy and more swashbuckler than thief, then spymasters and nobles wanting to use their burgling talents against rivals. Their own version of the fighters stuff, but slightly different - more specialist goods and knowledge from outside the realm, rather than things from within.

    Warriors however, can turn basic peasants into soldiers, perhaps even rivals to your knights. And the hero himself might be a rival to your champion. Grant of land and title makes them your man instead, and focuses their attention where you want it (the frontier perhaps). There's no problem with this being the party's base (near the tower and temple perhaps), but it's the fighter's fief so the bulk of the vassals, hirelings and useful craftsmen answer to the Fighter.


    In short: as far as special non-combat abilities go for higher level characters
    Wizards/Sorcerors/Warlocks: Spells
    Clerics/Druids: Divine assistance, resurrection and healing.
    Fighters/Barbarians: Anything available in your kingdom, connections with the local rulers.
    Rogues/Bards: Exotics and things money can't normally buy

    With the caveat that you can obviously shift things around if you're missing an archetype or split things up if you have multiples

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    GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    edited February 2023
    I think the biggest thing i want is the removal of counterspell and then clarifying what things are magical and what things arent for the purposes of dispel magic

    edit: darkness and fog should just explicitly say that everyone attacks at normal unless they have a means to see through the effect. (or that everyone always attacks at disadvantage regardless of the mutual bonuses) Fog prevents enemies from seeing outside of it and casting targeted spells.

    Goumindong on
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    Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    So I'm planning to run Light of Xaryxis and just had a random idea that I really like: as written, the adventure stops by a world suspiciously like Dark Sun, but what if instead it stopped by a Gamma World like setting? Spelljammer is wacky, Gamma World is even wackier, and a pit stop would allow the PCs to scavenge advanced tech and maybe even gain a mutation.

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    BahamutZEROBahamutZERO Registered User, Moderator mod
    love it

    BahamutZERO.gif
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    nightmarennynightmarenny Registered User regular
    Fighters getting a keep and an army is more than just having money. The idea is that high level fighters become heroes of renown that other fighters(and other classes as well) flock to serve. So why not wizards and Rogues? Well this is largely backfilling from the common view of these classes but its assumed that the Rogue tries to keep a low profile instead starting a guild or secret organization and thus gain institutional power more in line with their class. Magic users were assumed to both not attracted non-magic followers because they are mysterious and creepy and also want to spend all their time in some Tower researching new spells.

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    Endless_SerpentsEndless_Serpents Registered User regular
    It probably made more sense when the assumed setting was Middle Earth by way of Moorcock and Vance. The rogues are hobbits, the wizard (of significant level) is a higher being, elves and dwarfs head West or disappear back to the mountainhome when the adventure is through. Only your regular mortal humans are even interested in social structures.

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    Endless_SerpentsEndless_Serpents Registered User regular
    edited February 2023
    In your hypothetical D&D 6E, there should probably be some matrix of background-ancestry-class-archetype to determine what you get, if you don’t simply make it an additional thing you pick at 12th level.

    Sailor-Drow-Warlock-Fathomless Patron = Underground pirate ship that can become a submarine
    Urchin-Dragonborn-Fighter-Champion = Orphanage that is secretly a militia rebellion base
    Courtesan-Warforged-Bard-College of Lore = Advisor to the king, work out of the castle but don’t own it

    Edit: Though in any case if one player gets a fort while another gets a tower ten miles away that sounds more like retirement plans that something worth playing out. It’d be nicer to have the gang share one location, whatever that may be.

    Endless_Serpents on
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    TastyfishTastyfish Registered User regular
    Best have a gamma world campaign in your back pocket...

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    TastyfishTastyfish Registered User regular
    edited February 2023
    Fighters getting a keep and an army is more than just having money. The idea is that high level fighters become heroes of renown that other fighters(and other classes as well) flock to serve. So why not wizards and Rogues? Well this is largely backfilling from the common view of these classes but its assumed that the Rogue tries to keep a low profile instead starting a guild or secret organization and thus gain institutional power more in line with their class. Magic users were assumed to both not attracted non-magic followers because they are mysterious and creepy and also want to spend all their time in some Tower researching new spells.

    Myths and legends are replete with strong heroes, admittedly more than a few cunning ones too (but those guys are also often equally strong or good fighters).
    Wizards and sorcerers are perhaps advisors or someone to be sought out for help on a quest, but rarely the main guy.

    The common folk can imagine being a might hero, super strong with armour and weapons. They live a world of wolves, bandits and tax collectors where joining the army is a way out of that life. They're going to idolise the fighters rather than the wizards and lawyers as they understand how the former works and can see what they would do with that power. Peasants who dream of the latter are going to get shut down hard by elders who just need them to tend to the harvest and the temples that are keen a monopoly on miracles. Nobody wants more Warlocks.

    The nobility almost certainly exist within some form of fuedalism, paying tribute to a larger power in goods or in soldiers. So more good soldiers is more of your own family you don't have to put in danger. Or if you dream of achieving glory and doing more than opening the village fete and judging pigs, you're probably going to see that pathway as earning it on the battlefield for the next rank up (or your father, if you are a prince). Again the clergy here are going to be on the look out for those more bookish scions to hoover up before they start flirting with becoming Warlocks to jump up a few ranks.

    If you start letting magic users into governance, then that road only ends up with Sorcerer Kings, with half of the court turning into snakes any given day and with regular culls of children born any auspicious (or particularly and suspiciously inauspicious days).

    And even if we take that to it's endgame, when the Undying King recognises our party for vanquishing the Red Queen and her Knights of Blood, the liche is going to give them a brief glimpse of the Last Remnant Of The Old Sun before charging the fighter to be his Arm and his Will over some part of his domain. Spell casters are a direct threat are thus assigned to the academy to teach, or to the temples to tend to the small folk. Fighters and Rogues are tasked with locating such gifted individuals and directing them to the suitable organisation.

    Tastyfish on
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    Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    edited February 2023
    Tastyfish wrote: »
    Best have a gamma world campaign in your back pocket...

    The PCs will be on the clock to stop another world from being destroyed, plus I'm thinking of having one of the factions the PCs are supposed to recruit against the evil astral elf empire being there scavenging for anything useful, which will give them an additional reason to eventually leave unless they really want to let a world be destroyed.

    Hexmage-PA on
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    TastyfishTastyfish Registered User regular
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    Tastyfish wrote: »
    Best have a gamma world campaign in your back pocket...

    The PCs will be on the clock to stop another world from being destroyed, plus I'm thinking of having one of the factions the PCs are supposed to recruit against the evil astral elf empire being there scavenging for anything useful, which will give them an additional reason to eventually leave unless they really want to let a world be destroyed.

    Slot another convince or conquer ally faction in there perhaps, in case they decide that this world is the perfect rally point. Ticking clock vs last chance mechs etc

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    Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    Given that there will be guns on this world and this is a Spelljammer campaign I think I'll have the giff be the faction interested in Gamma Terra, since in 5E the lore is that their lost creatot god apparently was a gun nut and made them super good at using them.

    I also think I'm gonna have a giff bombard kitted-out with post apocalyptic tech randomly blow up during the final wildspace battle against the Astral elves, damaging whatever is within the blast.

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    DracomicronDracomicron Registered User regular
    I recently played Mutant Crawl Classics, which is basically Gamma World, OSR style. It's apparently completely compatible with DCC to the point where a lot of folks run plant mutants next to elf wizards.

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    nightmarennynightmarenny Registered User regular
    It probably made more sense when the assumed setting was Middle Earth by way of Moorcock and Vance. The rogues are hobbits, the wizard (of significant level) is a higher being, elves and dwarfs head West or disappear back to the mountainhome when the adventure is through. Only your regular mortal humans are even interested in social structures.

    Someone describing the way Dungeon World and other games from that ruleset work said something like "The game doesn't function based on the rules of reality. It functions on the rules of genre" and that struck me because I think that's largely true at least for the first version of d&d as well. Like when we modern people discuss why a fighter becomes a Lord and a wizard becomes the weird hermit or advisor we are kind of missing the point. The answer is that that is what you do. That dungeons and dragons is based on fantasy stories in which the gruff fighter is crowned king at the end. It's based on stories where a mysterious magical figure offers that king their support and strength. Fighters become Lords because that is what they do. Because those are the kinds of stories we were originally recreating.

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    webguy20webguy20 I spend too much time on the Internet Registered User regular
    I gotta say this, through all the recent turmoil, we just started my friends epic homebrew campaign and I'm playing MCDM's BeastHeart custom class and I'm REALLY enjoying it so far. I have an awesome owlbear companion and I get to do a ton of neat things, mostly designed to lock down enemies and help my allies. I really dig it.

    Steam ID: Webguy20
    Origin ID: Discgolfer27
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    GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    Tastyfish wrote: »
    Fighters getting a keep and an army is more than just having money. The idea is that high level fighters become heroes of renown that other fighters(and other classes as well) flock to serve. So why not wizards and Rogues? Well this is largely backfilling from the common view of these classes but its assumed that the Rogue tries to keep a low profile instead starting a guild or secret organization and thus gain institutional power more in line with their class. Magic users were assumed to both not attracted non-magic followers because they are mysterious and creepy and also want to spend all their time in some Tower researching new spells.

    Myths and legends are replete with strong heroes, admittedly more than a few cunning ones too (but those guys are also often equally strong or good fighters).
    Wizards and sorcerers are perhaps advisors or someone to be sought out for help on a quest, but rarely the main guy.

    The common folk can imagine being a might hero, super strong with armour and weapons. They live a world of wolves, bandits and tax collectors where joining the army is a way out of that life. They're going to idolise the fighters rather than the wizards and lawyers as they understand how the former works and can see what they would do with that power. Peasants who dream of the latter are going to get shut down hard by elders who just need them to tend to the harvest and the temples that are keen a monopoly on miracles. Nobody wants more Warlocks.

    The nobility almost certainly exist within some form of fuedalism, paying tribute to a larger power in goods or in soldiers. So more good soldiers is more of your own family you don't have to put in danger. Or if you dream of achieving glory and doing more than opening the village fete and judging pigs, you're probably going to see that pathway as earning it on the battlefield for the next rank up (or your father, if you are a prince). Again the clergy here are going to be on the look out for those more bookish scions to hoover up before they start flirting with becoming Warlocks to jump up a few ranks.

    If you start letting magic users into governance, then that road only ends up with Sorcerer Kings, with half of the court turning into snakes any given day and with regular culls of children born any auspicious (or particularly and suspiciously inauspicious days).

    And even if we take that to it's endgame, when the Undying King recognises our party for vanquishing the Red Queen and her Knights of Blood, the liche is going to give them a brief glimpse of the Last Remnant Of The Old Sun before charging the fighter to be his Arm and his Will over some part of his domain. Spell casters are a direct threat are thus assigned to the academy to teach, or to the temples to tend to the small folk. Fighters and Rogues are tasked with locating such gifted individuals and directing them to the suitable organisation.

    From a rational perspective fighter are enemy number 1 to the peasants just because of how army logistics work.

    You cannot March any army off logistics. You match an army off the production of the land and part of then job of the army is securing the production either via diplomacy(ideally for your own forces) or violence.

    So the fighters are the ones who are quartered in your towns with kind of explicit warrant to take who and what they want when they’re on your side. And the violence to enforce it when they not

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