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Tipping/Gratuity Culture

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    MagellMagell Detroit Machine Guns Fort MyersRegistered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Magell wrote: »
    No they're not they're still being paid to be there and keep you happy. It's not like removing tipping will make waitstaff like the customers more.

    It's very hard to describe, but I find I have more casual conversations with staff there, and encounter a lot less...I don't know, call it "aggressive courtesy." I'm describing it poorly. Like if the server is chatting with us for a minute it's just because they're chatting with us, not to get a tip. But there's a lot less fake enthusiasm and constant "checking up" on you. Which, frankly, I prefer.

    I feel more like just a customer that's being served, and less like a wallet with feet.

    EDIT: Like when I went out of my way to give a customer a good experience when working retail...there was neither expectation nor hope that I'd make any more money for doing that. I just did it, because it was my job. And I low-key kinda cared if they were happy with their purchase.

    I'm pretty sure that's more of a cultural thing with the difference in how Europeans and Americans expect wait staff to work.

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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    Magell wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Magell wrote: »
    No they're not they're still being paid to be there and keep you happy. It's not like removing tipping will make waitstaff like the customers more.

    It's very hard to describe, but I find I have more casual conversations with staff there, and encounter a lot less...I don't know, call it "aggressive courtesy." I'm describing it poorly. Like if the server is chatting with us for a minute it's just because they're chatting with us, not to get a tip. But there's a lot less fake enthusiasm and constant "checking up" on you. Which, frankly, I prefer.

    I feel more like just a customer that's being served, and less like a wallet with feet.

    EDIT: Like when I went out of my way to give a customer a good experience when working retail...there was neither expectation nor hope that I'd make any more money for doing that. I just did it, because it was my job. And I low-key kinda cared if they were happy with their purchase.

    I'm pretty sure that's more of a cultural thing with the difference in how Europeans and Americans expect wait staff to work.

    I would argue that the way wait staff are paid influences those cultural expectations though. When wait staff are voluntarily paid directly by patrons, there is more incentive/pressure to offer "personal" service to increase that pay. Then that gets ingrained in patrons as what "good" service looks like, so it's rewarded with tips, and the self-perpetuating cycle completes.

    I could definitely be wrong, though.

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    Jealous DevaJealous Deva Registered User regular
    spool32 wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    And to be clear if the answer is "hey man, I think we should tip everyone!" that's not an improvement, because literally all that does is establish a norm by which paying workers is totes optional.

    Which again is how tipping in the US started, and is a kinda sorta bad thing.

    Yeah, I totally agree with you on principle, but at the kind of restaurants I go to (which aren’t generally the type that have a server making more than a senior analyst), me tipping $0 on a $60 check for 3 people doesn’t mean I’m sticking it to the man, it means a single mom has $15-20 less to feed her kids that week.



    I want to know where you're getting a table for three and walking out for $60 after tax. An app for the table, three chicken caesars, and waters all around please!

    NC, outside of major cities locally $15 entree and $2.50 drink is pretty typical. $5-8 for an appetizer.

    If you are ordering steak add $10 a plate, if you go in town to a non-chain multiply everything by 1.5-2.

    Of course if you really want to go to a place that is a hundred dollars a plate or more you can do that too.

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    tinwhiskerstinwhiskers Registered User regular
    edited March 2023
    Magell wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Casual wrote: »
    And illegal in most of Europe for a reason. The price is the price and if you're taking money off someone you should be explicit before the fact what that number is going to be. Obfuscating or misrepresenting that number via various "additional charge" shenanigans is fraud. Getting people through the door with ONE DOLLAR HAMBURGERS in size 1000 font then springing the small print detailing what the actual cost of the hamburger is after the fact is a scam.

    As a non-American it is weird to me the degree to which that particular scam is tolerated and normalised, let alone mixed in with abusive labour practices. It's total cultural whiplash for me.

    It's great dining in Europe for this reason. Both because you generally don't have to worry about how much the price will be (where I've been a Euro or two tip is appreciated but hardly "expected") and because it means your interactions with the staff there are so much more genuine. You don't have to wonder if it's transactional.

    But really yes it's very consumer-friendly to know that when you order two $9.95 plates and two $2 drinks that your check is going to be $24. And that you can pay $24 without anybody thinking you're a gaping asshole, though if you wanna pay $25 sure go wild. Unless you are very, very good at math it's super difficult for an American consumer to keep track of that kind of thing as they order. Like here I've got a 9% or so sales tax to add on, plus you have to scour the fine print to find out of there's a 4% "living wage fee" that'll be added, then you don't know if the check is going to come out with a 18% or 22% or even 24% "suggested" tip. So that same $24 meal? Fuck, I guess it could be anywhere from $30.86 up to maybe $33.19. And if you're ordering for a family of four? Good luck keeping that tab going in your head. Yeah, I'm lucky I'm in a position where this normally isn't going to be a problem for me but even then sometimes we wind up with serious sticker shock when the bill comes, like how the fuck is this tab for two $70? And it's because $20 of that is post-menu-price additions. An annoyance for us, but could be a legitimate problem for somebody who's trying to treat their family on a tight budget.

    No they're not they're still being paid to be there and keep you happy. It's not like removing tipping will make waitstaff like the customers more.

    Yeah, but it will remove a lot of the bullshit servers do to increase tips.

    I love how 'K here is your food, wave me over if you want something' a lot of European service is. The "How's the first bites?" bullshit is so fucking annoying. Same with the middle of a conversation/story being interrupted for 'Can I get you anything else'

    Because the waiter isn't just a server, they are a sales person.

    When I'm at BestBuy I don't go "Good job talking me into that extended warranty, here's an extra $10".

    e: To speak nothing of 'Do I want to be comfortable or not constantly ogled vs make an extra $100 tonight' by say wearing pigtails

    tinwhiskers on
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    ShadowfireShadowfire Vermont, in the middle of nowhereRegistered User regular
    Magell wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Casual wrote: »
    And illegal in most of Europe for a reason. The price is the price and if you're taking money off someone you should be explicit before the fact what that number is going to be. Obfuscating or misrepresenting that number via various "additional charge" shenanigans is fraud. Getting people through the door with ONE DOLLAR HAMBURGERS in size 1000 font then springing the small print detailing what the actual cost of the hamburger is after the fact is a scam.

    As a non-American it is weird to me the degree to which that particular scam is tolerated and normalised, let alone mixed in with abusive labour practices. It's total cultural whiplash for me.

    It's great dining in Europe for this reason. Both because you generally don't have to worry about how much the price will be (where I've been a Euro or two tip is appreciated but hardly "expected") and because it means your interactions with the staff there are so much more genuine. You don't have to wonder if it's transactional.

    But really yes it's very consumer-friendly to know that when you order two $9.95 plates and two $2 drinks that your check is going to be $24. And that you can pay $24 without anybody thinking you're a gaping asshole, though if you wanna pay $25 sure go wild. Unless you are very, very good at math it's super difficult for an American consumer to keep track of that kind of thing as they order. Like here I've got a 9% or so sales tax to add on, plus you have to scour the fine print to find out of there's a 4% "living wage fee" that'll be added, then you don't know if the check is going to come out with a 18% or 22% or even 24% "suggested" tip. So that same $24 meal? Fuck, I guess it could be anywhere from $30.86 up to maybe $33.19. And if you're ordering for a family of four? Good luck keeping that tab going in your head. Yeah, I'm lucky I'm in a position where this normally isn't going to be a problem for me but even then sometimes we wind up with serious sticker shock when the bill comes, like how the fuck is this tab for two $70? And it's because $20 of that is post-menu-price additions. An annoyance for us, but could be a legitimate problem for somebody who's trying to treat their family on a tight budget.

    No they're not they're still being paid to be there and keep you happy. It's not like removing tipping will make waitstaff like the customers more.

    Yeah, but it will remove a lot of the bullshit servers do to increase tips.

    I love how 'K here is your food, wave me over if you want something' a lot of European service is. The "How's the first bites?" bullshit is so fucking annoying. Same with the middle of a conversation/story being interrupted for 'Can I get you anything else'

    Because the waiter isn't just a server, they are a sales person.

    When I'm at BestBuy I don't go "Good job talking me into that extended warranty, here's an extra $10".

    When I do work in someone's home (TV install, computer repair, whatever), sometimes I get a tip! And some people do want to tip the salesperson when they feel they were helped very well.

    But for us it's a really nice surprise and not an expected part of the experience like servers. And that is super bullshit for them.

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    TastyfishTastyfish Registered User regular
    edited March 2023
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Magell wrote: »
    No they're not they're still being paid to be there and keep you happy. It's not like removing tipping will make waitstaff like the customers more.

    It's very hard to describe, but I find I have more casual conversations with staff there, and encounter a lot less...I don't know, call it "aggressive courtesy." I'm describing it poorly. Like if the server is chatting with us for a minute it's just because they're chatting with us, not to get a tip. But there's a lot less fake enthusiasm and constant "checking up" on you. Which, frankly, I prefer.

    I feel more like just a customer that's being served, and less like a wallet with feet.

    EDIT: Like when I went out of my way to give a customer a good experience when working retail...there was neither expectation nor hope that I'd make any more money for doing that. I just did it, because it was my job. And I low-key kinda cared if they were happy with their purchase.

    Yeah, as a foreigner that "aggressive courtesy" can sometimes really come off badly - either intrusively faked friendliness or awkwardly obsequious. Both of which are likely to make you feel uncomfortable which kind of feels like bad service...hence, unreliable tipping from tourists when you're told 15%/20% is standard for "good service", if you're told at all (or told the wrong number, say assuming it's the same 10-15% as back home).

    At the same time you're told a 5-star rating either means, "pulls out all the stops, beyond normal expectations" for a hotel and three stars is a perfectly acceptable motel with a pool. And it's hard enough to get people to think that 5 stars means "does the job adequately" for an app or uber driver.

    It's just a terrible system.

    Tastyfish on
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    spool32spool32 Contrary Library Registered User regular
    spool32 wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    And to be clear if the answer is "hey man, I think we should tip everyone!" that's not an improvement, because literally all that does is establish a norm by which paying workers is totes optional.

    Which again is how tipping in the US started, and is a kinda sorta bad thing.

    Yeah, I totally agree with you on principle, but at the kind of restaurants I go to (which aren’t generally the type that have a server making more than a senior analyst), me tipping $0 on a $60 check for 3 people doesn’t mean I’m sticking it to the man, it means a single mom has $15-20 less to feed her kids that week.



    I want to know where you're getting a table for three and walking out for $60 after tax. An app for the table, three chicken caesars, and waters all around please!

    NC, outside of major cities locally $15 entree and $2.50 drink is pretty typical. $5-8 for an appetizer.

    If you are ordering steak add $10 a plate, if you go in town to a non-chain multiply everything by 1.5-2.

    Of course if you really want to go to a place that is a hundred dollars a plate or more you can do that too.

    Sadly my NC experience was truncated heavily by the pandemic but it was not terribly possible to go out when I lived in uptown Charlotte for less than that. I feel like I missed out on a lot of good food!

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    HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    I should clarify that the guy making more than me in a day is doing that one day a week on a good night. His annual gross pay is not more than mine.

    And yeah, he works a lot harder than me on that one night. He earns those tips. I'm just pointing out that going from making $300 in a night from his tips to making $120 in a night is not really a win for him.

    (Also I'm a data analyst for the state, so whatever you imagine I'm making, chop that in half.)

    That can easily be bad math though. If it means he goes from 300 one night a week and 60 the four other nights, to 120 every night that's actually going from 540 to 600.

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    SmokeStacksSmokeStacks Registered User regular
    Doodmann wrote: »
    Actual footage of Smokestacks

    https://youtu.be/J6K7VBb8ENw

    This is, unironically, exactly what I did for Hometown Buffet, except my station was bigger and my hair was smaller and I was only 70-80% as creepy. I usually had three meats going that I was carving (usually turkey, roast beef or "top sirloin" steaks, and ham) plus a self serve bin of ribs or baked chicken or macaroni and cheese. I had a carving knife for steaks but also had two more (one for ham, one for everything that wasn't steaks or ham) that kinda looked like shortswords, it was wild. I always hassled the manager to sharpen them before I got there so those things were like fucking lightsabers. I also had the chainmail glove, but when carrying the knives to the back once after we closed I didn't wear it and I still have a very, very small scar in between the second and third knuckles of my right hand as a result. They had very specific rules for the sizes of cuts I was allowed to give people. Basically it was a "You can give them as much as they want, but it has to be in these specific sizes", and I was supposed to gently suggest/upsell the ham because it was cheaper than steaks or roast beef. I quit the job after I started dating one of the waitresses that I had a huge crush on (after finally getting up the nerve to ask her out) and later on broke up with her because it started becoming clear to me that she still hadn't moved on from her ex, and a day later she showed up to my apartment building in the middle of the night, absolutely shitfaced, and yelled up at my balcony how horrible I was until I came down and let her up to my studio, where she loudly refused to let me call her a cab, told me she was going to walk home to the other side of town, and then promptly passed out on the air mattress I was sleeping on at the time (and managed to somehow deflate it overnight). My neighbors gave me shit about it for months.

    Jesus Christ that video brings back memories.

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    ElJeffeElJeffe Roaming the streets, waving his mod gun around.Moderator, ClubPA Mod Emeritus
    edited March 2023
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    I should clarify that the guy making more than me in a day is doing that one day a week on a good night. His annual gross pay is not more than mine.

    And yeah, he works a lot harder than me on that one night. He earns those tips. I'm just pointing out that going from making $300 in a night from his tips to making $120 in a night is not really a win for him.

    (Also I'm a data analyst for the state, so whatever you imagine I'm making, chop that in half.)

    That can easily be bad math though. If it means he goes from 300 one night a week and 60 the four other nights, to 120 every night that's actually going from 540 to 600.

    He is definitely making more than minimum wage. The swing isn't that dramatic, for him at least. In my area, having a wait job at a decent restaurant has always been deemed financially preferable to a standard minimum wage job. I assume these people are not all bad at math.

    ElJeffe on
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    electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    I should clarify that the guy making more than me in a day is doing that one day a week on a good night. His annual gross pay is not more than mine.

    And yeah, he works a lot harder than me on that one night. He earns those tips. I'm just pointing out that going from making $300 in a night from his tips to making $120 in a night is not really a win for him.

    (Also I'm a data analyst for the state, so whatever you imagine I'm making, chop that in half.)

    That can easily be bad math though. If it means he goes from 300 one night a week and 60 the four other nights, to 120 every night that's actually going from 540 to 600.

    He is definitely making more than minimum wage. The swing isn't that dramatic, for him at least. In my area, having a wait job at a decent restaurant has always been deemed financially preferable to a standard minimum wage job. I assume these people are not all bad at math.

    A substantial number of people do not understand the progressive income tax system and reject raises on the basis that they think they'd be making less money after tax.

    Which is to say: it's not unreasonable to think that the occasional tipping windfalls are being over-valued by people compared to their year-over-year earning potential, and I'd really like to see some data on this (which I suspect can't exist for various other reasons).

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    The Cow KingThe Cow King a island Registered User regular
    Tastyfish wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Magell wrote: »
    No they're not they're still being paid to be there and keep you happy. It's not like removing tipping will make waitstaff like the customers more.

    It's very hard to describe, but I find I have more casual conversations with staff there, and encounter a lot less...I don't know, call it "aggressive courtesy." I'm describing it poorly. Like if the server is chatting with us for a minute it's just because they're chatting with us, not to get a tip. But there's a lot less fake enthusiasm and constant "checking up" on you. Which, frankly, I prefer.

    I feel more like just a customer that's being served, and less like a wallet with feet.

    EDIT: Like when I went out of my way to give a customer a good experience when working retail...there was neither expectation nor hope that I'd make any more money for doing that. I just did it, because it was my job. And I low-key kinda cared if they were happy with their purchase.

    Yeah, as a foreigner that "aggressive courtesy" can sometimes really come off badly - either intrusively faked friendliness or awkwardly obsequious. Both of which are likely to make you feel uncomfortable which kind of feels like bad service...hence, unreliable tipping from tourists when you're told 15%/20% is standard for "good service", if you're told at all (or told the wrong number, say assuming it's the same 10-15% as back home).

    At the same time you're told a 5-star rating either means, "pulls out all the stops, beyond normal expectations" for a hotel and three stars is a perfectly acceptable motel with a pool. And it's hard enough to get people to think that 5 stars means "does the job adequately" for an app or uber driver.

    It's just a terrible system.

    That's not how stars work for hotels btw

    The stars mean what services/stuff is at a hotel

    A one star is just a bed add more for breakfast, bar, pool, gym etc

    icGJy2C.png
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    Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    All this of labor exploitation this and minimum wage that is silly because like ok yeah its true but you not tipping has fuck all to do with fixing it.

    So just tip the fucking waiter. They're working a shitty fucking job and you have some disposable income, throw them their 15% god damn. Are you regularly spending your dining out budget at places where the waiters can make serious middle class cash on tips? Tip more then, you rich fuck.

    Got shitty service? Tip anyway. 9/10 shitty service is a managment issue and that waiter who didnt come to ask about a refill is having like the 4th worst day of their life.

    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
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    MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    All this of labor exploitation this and minimum wage that is silly because like ok yeah its true but you not tipping has fuck all to do with fixing it.

    So just tip the fucking waiter. They're working a shitty fucking job and you have some disposable income, throw them their 15% god damn. Are you regularly spending your dining out budget at places where the waiters can make serious middle class cash on tips? Tip more then, you rich fuck.

    Got shitty service? Tip anyway. 9/10 shitty service is a managment issue and that waiter who didnt come to ask about a refill is having like the 4th worst day of their life.

    The issue (at least here) isn't "fuck the wait staff". I haven't seen anyone arguing that the wait staff shouldn't be appropriately compensated.

    It's how do you stop the owners from exploiting their staff so that the burden of properly compensating them is on the whim of the public, rather than an integrated business cost, so that relying on the largess of the public isn't necessary for the wait staff to have an appropriate compensation.

    If the last couple of years hasn't shown that the public are largely unreliable when it comes to "greater good" shit, and the degradation of conforming to "social norms", I don't know what to say.

    Has it become a critical issue yet, with shit like the fake notes? Probably not. But I'd rather not wait until it does before it becomes an issue.

    And I'd rather cut it off before we see the increase in expansion to other industries as a norm, and see those people exploited by their employers too.

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    HacksawHacksaw J. Duggan Esq. Wrestler at LawRegistered User regular
    Personally I tip 20% even if the service is bad because solidarity doesn't stop at the threshold of the restaurant; you gotta carry a socialist solidarity mindset with you everywhere you go, and that means doing what you can to alleviate the burderns of others where ever and however it won't put you out (or not too much, at any rate). Service is labor: no one understands it until they do it, and doing it changed your perspective forever.

    Especially if you work front of house vs. back of house.

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    IncenjucarIncenjucar VChatter Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    I just default to 20% because I can afford it, Seattle is expensive, service jobs are rough, and I don't want to have to think about it every time I make a purchase.

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    DoodmannDoodmann Registered User regular
    Tipping is charity not solidarity, it reinforces class divides and upholds the exploitative capitalist system.

    I'm not going to stop tipping because it's the stupid society we live in, but don't pretend you're doing something you aren't.

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    amateurhouramateurhour One day I'll be professionalhour The woods somewhere in TennesseeRegistered User regular
    Doodmann wrote: »
    Tipping is charity not solidarity, it reinforces class divides and upholds the exploitative capitalist system.

    I'm not going to stop tipping because it's the stupid society we live in, but don't pretend you're doing something you aren't.

    That's a fair point, like I agree with you, and I'm still gonna tip because eat at Arby's, hopefully workers read the forum and strike.

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    redxredx I(x)=2(x)+1 whole numbersRegistered User regular
    It's not charity. It is paying the correct amount for the service you received.

    They moistly come out at night, moistly.
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    TastyfishTastyfish Registered User regular
    edited March 2023
    redx wrote: »
    It's not charity. It is paying the correct amount for the service you received.

    They're not independent contractors.

    Tastyfish on
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    PhyphorPhyphor Building Planet Busters Tasting FruitRegistered User regular
    If it was the correct amount it should be included in the bill

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    PaladinPaladin Registered User regular
    If you don't tip some people will do bad things to your food so you should tip for selfish reasons

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    SmokeStacksSmokeStacks Registered User regular
    Paladin wrote: »
    If you don't tip some people will do bad things to your food so you should tip for selfish reasons

    If I didn't see it, it didn't happen.

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    Raiden333Raiden333 Registered User regular
    Paladin wrote: »
    If you don't tip some people will do bad things to your food so you should tip for selfish reasons

    Pal where are you eating that you tip them or don't tip them before you receive your food

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    Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    Raiden333 wrote: »
    Paladin wrote: »
    If you don't tip some people will do bad things to your food so you should tip for selfish reasons

    Pal where are you eating that you tip them or don't tip them before you receive your food

    Are you John Lithgow? You have to tell us if you're John Lithgow, it's the law.

    Trust me, people love to be regulars but also tip like shit. I personally would never mess with a customers food but I've... Seen things happen like that

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    SmokeStacksSmokeStacks Registered User regular
    Also, I'm discussing something with a friend, but neither of us have been in the military so I'd like someone who was to weigh in:

    Theoretical situation - You go to a strip mall hair salon to get a haircut. The price for a haircut is $25 and you have $30 in cash. Your intention is to get a $25 haircut and give the employee a $5 tip, for a total of $30.

    The military/ex-military discount is $3 off, which would bring the haircut price to $22. You are not military or ex-military.

    Would it be considered stolen valor to lie to the employee and claim to be ex-military to knock the price down to $22, but still give the employee the same $30, bringing their tip up from $5 to $8?

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    AntinumericAntinumeric Registered User regular
    Why should I tip waiters but not anyone else on minimum wage?

    The answer is cultural inertia. Not class solidarity, not their job being particularly hard or dangerous. Literally just "culturally that's what we do".

    All these defenses sound like bullshit because fundamentally they are made to justify tipping, rather than stemming from tipping.

    In this moment, I am euphoric. Not because of any phony god’s blessing. But because, I am enlightened by my intelligence.
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    PaladinPaladin Registered User regular
    Also, I'm discussing something with a friend, but neither of us have been in the military so I'd like someone who was to weigh in:

    Theoretical situation - You go to a strip mall hair salon to get a haircut. The price for a haircut is $25 and you have $30 in cash. Your intention is to get a $25 haircut and give the employee a $5 tip, for a total of $30.

    The military/ex-military discount is $3 off, which would bring the haircut price to $22. You are not military or ex-military.

    Would it be considered stolen valor to lie to the employee and claim to be ex-military to knock the price down to $22, but still give the employee the same $30, bringing their tip up from $5 to $8?

    I'd pay $3 to see the conversation you'd have during the haircut with a barber that happened to be a military veteran

    Marty: The future, it's where you're going?
    Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
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    lonelyahavalonelyahava Call me Ahava ~~She/Her~~ Move to New ZealandRegistered User regular
    IMO yes because the lie comes before the consideration of the tip.

    If you are a person that even knows enough to pause enough to consider 'is what i am doing Stolen Valor" then you would be quite an ass to make that lie for yourself.


    Then again i'm not sure how i feel about there being a military discount on a price that will just cut into the hairdresser's pay, as they are still doing the same amount of labor, just on a different head. But I think that's a bit far afield for this conversation

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    Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    Why should I tip waiters but not anyone else on minimum wage?

    If they ask for a tip Id probably pay them too.

    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
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    redxredx I(x)=2(x)+1 whole numbersRegistered User regular
    If you receive a discount, it should not factor into your tip. Otherwise is probably wouldn't impact the amount the hair person gets.

    They moistly come out at night, moistly.
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    SmokeStacksSmokeStacks Registered User regular
    edited March 2023
    Paladin wrote: »
    I'd pay $3 to see the conversation you'd have during the haircut with a barber that happened to be a military veteran

    If you didn't mention it until you got to the register afterward you could bypass the verbal evisceration you would otherwise get.

    The reason this theoretical takes place in a chain salon is because the employees in those tend to make a flat hourly wage, plus tips. If you did it, you would be lying, but you would not be benefitting from the lie because you are still paying the same amount of money - the employee would benefit though, because in that scenario you would be taking $3 that would have normally gone to the salon owner and given it to the employee instead.

    Edit: I should clarify that you would be lying specifically to increase the tip the employee gets, not for any personal consideration.

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    cckerberoscckerberos Registered User regular
    I went to a bar today where all ordering was done via my phone. Maybe this is a common thing now (I don't go to bars all that much anymore), but I had never experienced it before. I didn't mind doing this way, but my contact with the staff never lasted more than five seconds as they brought out the food I ordered. There was none of the typical interactions with waitstaff. I sat myself, and no one ever asked if I needed a fill-up on my drink or if my food was alright.

    What made me think of this thread was the fact that, despite the reduction in service, when it came time to pay the bill, the default gratuity was 22% and the minimum 18% (I'm sure there was some way of paying less, but it would have involved jumping through hoops). And this is in Seattle where workers get $16.50/hr before tips.

    I don't think there's any actual solution. I've lived abroad and know this system isn't necessary, but studies have shown that Americans are idiots and believe that they receive worse service when there isn't tipping.

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    AntinumericAntinumeric Registered User regular
    Why should I tip waiters but not anyone else on minimum wage?

    If they ask for a tip Id probably pay them too.

    Why wait for them to ask? You don't wait for waiters or bartenders to ask.

    Jack up your shopping bills 20%.

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    Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    Because giving strangers money isn't the customer's job, it's the employers' duty to pay a fair, liveable wage; unfortunately restaurant owners have gotten to have cheaper labor and People Like You play into their hands by making this about the workers and not the business owners.

    If we moved to a tipless system where people were just paid well, I guarantee you the biggest complaints wouldn't be from the people at the bottom, it'll be the guys the top who whine about having to actually pay people for once

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    PaladinPaladin Registered User regular
    Paladin wrote: »
    I'd pay $3 to see the conversation you'd have during the haircut with a barber that happened to be a military veteran

    If you didn't mention it until you got to the register afterward you could bypass the verbal evisceration you would otherwise get.

    The reason this theoretical takes place in a chain salon is because the employees in those tend to make a flat hourly wage, plus tips. If you did it, you would be lying, but you would not be benefitting from the lie because you are still paying the same amount of money - the employee would benefit though, because in that scenario you would be taking $3 that would have normally gone to the salon owner and given it to the employee instead.

    Edit: I should clarify that you would be lying specifically to increase the tip the employee gets, not for any personal consideration.

    Eventually you'll be found out because hair grows back and there aren't as many barber shops as restaurants, but based on my experiences with veterans they're more likely to think you're a weird liar than scream at you.

    I personally wouldn't embarrass myself for $3, but also because if they enjoyed your company, it would probably make them a bit sad that you aren't the person they thought you were. Some people in the service industry really do find enjoyment in getting to know other people.

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    lonelyahavalonelyahava Call me Ahava ~~She/Her~~ Move to New ZealandRegistered User regular
    Paladin wrote: »
    I'd pay $3 to see the conversation you'd have during the haircut with a barber that happened to be a military veteran

    If you didn't mention it until you got to the register afterward you could bypass the verbal evisceration you would otherwise get.

    The reason this theoretical takes place in a chain salon is because the employees in those tend to make a flat hourly wage, plus tips. If you did it, you would be lying, but you would not be benefitting from the lie because you are still paying the same amount of money - the employee would benefit though, because in that scenario you would be taking $3 that would have normally gone to the salon owner and given it to the employee instead.

    Edit: I should clarify that you would be lying specifically to increase the tip the employee gets, not for any personal consideration.

    no. You are lying to get something for yourself. whether that is just the 'discount' is just the justification you are giving yourself. But saying "i am a military veteran" implies *so much more* than just "i want to save money on this haircut". There are now social expectations, opinions being made about you, impressions given as to your past, your family, your career, your likely mental state.

    A lie is a lie is a lie. Some lies might appear harmless, but there is still harm done by them, even if you do not perceive it as being so.

    So you lie about being a veteran. you get your discount. the haridresser gets a larger 'tip' what is there to stop multiple people from doing the same thing? and then the business discovers that 'holy shit i didn't know we lived on a military base' and they remove that discount because they are losing money by nickles and dimes.

    Your one little lie escalated and caused hardship. But you were doing it for yourself, and not for the benefit of the hairdresser. Because you are telling the lie before you get to the point of payment. That is a lie for yourself, not for the benefit of another person.

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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited March 2023
    redx wrote: »
    If you receive a discount, it should not factor into your tip. Otherwise is probably wouldn't impact the amount the hair person gets.

    In my experience hair care has always been more of a flat tip ($5 or $10) than a percentage anyway. Maybe I’m weird though.

    Either way if you lied, even to pass the discount, I would be forced by custom to film you vertically while screaming “stohlen vahlor!!1!” Duh.
    Why should I tip waiters but not anyone else on minimum wage?

    The answer is cultural inertia. Not class solidarity, not their job being particularly hard or dangerous. Literally just "culturally that's what we do".

    All these defenses sound like bullshit because fundamentally they are made to justify tipping, rather than stemming from tipping.

    Well yeah, the origin of American tip culture is “nobody should actually be required to pay Black people, emancipation be damned.”

    Every argument you hear in favor of it today is just a backward-crafted justification because it currently works out kinda well for a slice of the service industry, often at the expense of other working class people (but always to the benefit of ownership). And for any worker in an industry that benefits, I get holding on to it for dear life. Though given the horror stories service staff will then tell to justify the continuation of the practice, I’d argue that maybe it’s kinda not working all that well. Like I said earlier, to some extent tips are the carrot that’s dangled to get you to put up with that shit. Without that, maybe they’d have to treat employees marginally better.

    But the cultural norms it perpetuates, from (as noted in this thread) “paying labor should be optional” all the way to “gross men will pay you more for wearing pigtails” says that on the whole it’s potentially doing more harm than good, and we might be better served getting past it and fighting for real pay and benefits for all service workers.

    mcdermott on
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    ElJeffeElJeffe Roaming the streets, waving his mod gun around.Moderator, ClubPA Mod Emeritus
    Paladin wrote: »
    I'd pay $3 to see the conversation you'd have during the haircut with a barber that happened to be a military veteran

    If you didn't mention it until you got to the register afterward you could bypass the verbal evisceration you would otherwise get.

    The reason this theoretical takes place in a chain salon is because the employees in those tend to make a flat hourly wage, plus tips. If you did it, you would be lying, but you would not be benefitting from the lie because you are still paying the same amount of money - the employee would benefit though, because in that scenario you would be taking $3 that would have normally gone to the salon owner and given it to the employee instead.

    Edit: I should clarify that you would be lying specifically to increase the tip the employee gets, not for any personal consideration.

    What if you paid full price, then snuck into the register when nobody was looking, stole $2, and gave it to the hairdresser?

    You're basically stealing either way. If you want to give the hairdresser an $8 tip, give the hairdresser an $8 tip, and then also pay the amount for the haircut you're supposed to, you cheap bastard.

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    ElJeffeElJeffe Roaming the streets, waving his mod gun around.Moderator, ClubPA Mod Emeritus
    Because giving strangers money isn't the customer's job, it's the employers' duty to pay a fair, liveable wage; unfortunately restaurant owners have gotten to have cheaper labor and People Like You play into their hands by making this about the workers and not the business owners.

    If we moved to a tipless system where people were just paid well, I guarantee you the biggest complaints wouldn't be from the people at the bottom, it'll be the guys the top who whine about having to actually pay people for once

    "I will give anyone a tip, but only if they say the secret words that authorize me to do so" is indistinguishable from "I'm not going to tip them because I don't want to" aside from giving you warm fee fees, dude.

    It's okay to just say that you don't tip them because it's not culturally accepted for you to tip them.

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