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Tipping/Gratuity Culture

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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited March 2023
    I actually rarely take service quality into account because I know sometimes folks are just having a rough day or someone called in sick or something that isn't their fault. You'd have to be directly and purposefully rude to me or obviously not trying to do the work for me to cut my tip and even then I'm going to at least give 5% at the absolute lowest.

    To me it's less being grateful for a particular level of service and more just being grateful you are there at all and that you tried to do the work.

    I do not really have an opinion about if it's actually a good system or not from an economic / social perspective. I can't imagine how anything would work without it, especially pizza, but I have barely been outside the country so there's a lot about life in foreign countries I can't imagine.

    See I disagree with a 5% minimum. I've gotten service before where I'm actually being actively ignored or insulted, and the worst I've ever done is left a penny. If you leave no tip they could rationalize it as "he just forgot", but if there's a penny they know I remembered, and they sucked. I've only ever done this twice in my lifetime, and only after consulting (or attempting to consult) with management about the poor service and getting similar treatment.

    But the thing is, I should never have to be put in this position! Even in those cases where I'm still being actively treated like crap, I still feel guilty about tipping this way, even though it's clearly their own fault for shitting on me. Just pay people a fair wage and if I have a super bad experience I can just resolve myself never to go back there. The current system where I have to reward somebody for doing a shite job and being a jerk to me or else feel like a bad person sucks.

    I very, very rarely stiff...been a server, raised by a server, and as much as I (clearly) hate the practice I generally go along to get along. I don't tip high, I don't tip low, I tip the standard and call it a day. But yeah, if service is bad enough that I'm asking the question? It's gonna be a penny, nothing more. But I can count how many times I've done over the years this on my hands. And it's usually either actively insulting service, service so bad it cost me money, or trying to scam me.

    Like the pizza dude who tried to pretend he "didn't have change for a twenty." Yeah, I know that trick, but you aren't getting a $16 tip on this $24 check (two twenties was all I had). So told him to wait there while I gathered change to pay him exactly. About halfway through he offers to go "check my car, I may have change for a twenty out there." Nah bro, you shot your shot, your tip is gone. That kidn of thing. Yes, a dude actually tried that, and this was back in the day when cash payment was the norm.

    mcdermott on
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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    Magell wrote: »
    Some states and restaurants have gone to actually paying their servers minimum wage at least and generally put a notice on stuff about that that tipping isn't required, but minimum wage is still garbage pay so it's still not really good pay.

    I have a bunch of bartender and waiter friends so I always give at least 20% tip unless they are super garbage at their job. And even then I still tip because I know the pay isn't there. But outside of servers and barbers/hairdressers I don't really feel the need to tip anybody unless I want to give them extra cash because they are legitimately great at their job. But most places that aren't built on paying their employees less are pretty tough on not tipping employees. As much as I like Publix they make it pretty obvious you shouldn't tip the baggers even if they're taking your groceries out which can be pretty terrible in Florida weather.

    It is my understanding that all servers must get the minimum wage after tips, if their tips do not bring them up to minimum wage they have to be paid more

    The minimum wage being almost half the amount you have to make to afford a cheap 1 bedroom apartment in most of the US

    My understanding is that plenty of wage theft happens with that though and good luck actually getting paid that minimum wage.

    Wage theft is not limited to tipped positions though, so it's largely irrelevant to this conversation. Both the times my ex had to pursue her employers over blatant wage theft, it was untipped retail (both places were arms of the same corporation, even, and not some mom and pop shop).

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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited March 2023
    mcdermott wrote: »
    There is no tiered system.

    Everybody makes at least minimum wage.

    If making minimum wage is "getting fucked," then that's the part we need to fix. Because plenty of people are making at or near minimum wage in customarily untipped positions. No reason table servers are special here.

    Higher minimum wage is good but attacking the way folks can make bougie people pay them twice their rate isn't praxis.

    Social pressure is applied to the bougie and non-bougie alike.

    The social pressure to tip the customary percentage was no less when I was scraping by on $8.25 slinging boxes at Target than it is now that I make six figures.

    mcdermott on
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    joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    So one of the examples of moving away from the tipped wage is DC. The city passed through referendum for the second time the end of the tipped minimum wage making it equal to the minimum wage by 2027. The timeline is available on the DC government website. By July this year the "tipped minimum" will be $8 an hour. I wish it was faster but this is one way to start the shift.

    https://does.dc.gov/service/office-wage-hour-compliance-0

    It may have gotten lost in my long-winded initial post, but eliminating the tip credit actually does not put even the slightest dent in tipping.

    California hasn't had a tip credit for, like...forty years? Still 20%/25%/30% suggested tips at restaurants nowadays.

    Its part of the first step.

    You have to eliminate the tiered system for pay.

    And then work on the system on the cultural side.

    Otherwise you just fuck those on the tiered system because they will get fucked by it.

    There is no tiered system.

    Everybody makes at least minimum wage.

    If making minimum wage is "getting fucked," then that's the part we need to fix. Because plenty of people are making at or near minimum wage in customarily untipped positions. No reason table servers are special here.

    Yes. Let's look at the rest of the US.

    u930loizcdpi.png


    Here is the first problem. Great for Cali. Great for DC in 4 years. Great for Washington state.

    But the US isn't a single state. The real answer is a flat minimum for all workers at a national level.

    And then along with that a national shift through campaigns and possible banning of tipping to get rid of it.

    Sadly it isn't a "just stop tipping they get minimum wage anyway" answer.

    Like many things it a national collective action problem.

    So it will probably limp along till a national shift occurs.

    Just one more example of our extremely dumb patchwork system fucking people over in more regressive areas.

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    GilgaronGilgaron Registered User regular
    The social dynamic is the most annoying thing, like traveling on our honeymoon, there were bellhops at the airport that would snag the bags coming off the caurosel, essentially extort you of a tip to take your luggage through a set of doors to the local transport desk, while they provided no value other than it was more polite than being pickpocketed while wheeling your own luggage. We were staying at an all inclusive place and it was such a relief to get there and away from everyone trying to fleece the tourists. Conversely, I suppose I did palm a tip to an awesome tour guide who went above and beyond because I wasn't sure he was supposed to take tips and he got us a lot of local fruit at his expense and it wasn't on the itinerary.

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    Albino BunnyAlbino Bunny Jackie Registered User regular
    edited March 2023
    mcdermott wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    There is no tiered system.

    Everybody makes at least minimum wage.

    If making minimum wage is "getting fucked," then that's the part we need to fix. Because plenty of people are making at or near minimum wage in customarily untipped positions. No reason table servers are special here.

    Higher minimum wage is good but attacking the way folks can make bougie people pay them twice their rate isn't praxis.

    Social pressure is applied to the bougie and non-bougie alike.

    The social pressure to tip the customary percentage was no less when I was scraping by on $8.25 slinging boxes at Target than it is now that I make six figures.
    This literally does not refute that the minimum wage is not enough and we shouldn't come up with salty reasons some folk on it might get paid more one night.

    Albino Bunny on
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    MagellMagell Detroit Machine Guns Fort MyersRegistered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    There is no tiered system.

    Everybody makes at least minimum wage.

    If making minimum wage is "getting fucked," then that's the part we need to fix. Because plenty of people are making at or near minimum wage in customarily untipped positions. No reason table servers are special here.

    Higher minimum wage is good but attacking the way folks can make bougie people pay them twice their rate isn't praxis.

    Social pressure is applied to the bougie and non-bougie alike.

    The social pressure to tip the customary percentage was no less when I was scraping by on $8.25 slinging boxes at Target than it is now that I make six figures.

    Except the rich people buy more expensive stuff so the percentage of the tip is higher that's why the servers make more money at fancy restaurants. The rich people aren't tipping a high percentage, it's the same percentage, but on a higher amount.

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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited March 2023
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    Yes. Let's look at the rest of the US.
    u930loizcdpi.png


    Here is the first problem. Great for Cali. Great for DC in 4 years. Great for Washington state.

    But the US isn't a single state. The real answer is a flat minimum for all workers at a national level.

    And then along with that a national shift through campaigns and possible banning of tipping to get rid of it.

    Sadly it isn't a "just stop tipping they get minimum wage anyway" answer.

    Like many things it a national collective action problem.

    So it will probably limp along till a national shift occurs.

    To the bolded, we have that. It's $7.25/hour. Servers are entitled to it same as anybody.

    When you tip, their employer gets to take part of your tips, and credit it toward that. The only thing you have to do in order to prevent servers from getting paid "less than minimum" is not tip.. No laws need change. We don't tip because servers make less than minimum, the causality is reversed. Servers make less than minimum because you tip.

    You are handing money to their employer, voluntarily, in the hopes some of it trickles through to the server. Which is capitalism in a nutshell, of course. But, like, I never throw extra money into the till at Best Buy hoping they'll pay the CSR more. Why would I do this at a restaurant?

    mcdermott on
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    Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    ...
    I actually rarely take service quality into account because I know sometimes folks are just having a rough day or someone called in sick or something that isn't their fault. You'd have to be directly and purposefully rude to me or obviously not trying to do the work for me to cut my tip and even then I'm going to at least give 5% at the absolute lowest.

    To me it's less being grateful for a particular level of service and more just being grateful you are there at all and that you tried to do the work.

    I do not really have an opinion about if it's actually a good system or not from an economic / social perspective. I can't imagine how anything would work without it, especially pizza, but I have barely been outside the country so there's a lot about life in foreign countries I can't imagine.

    See I disagree with a 5% minimum. I've gotten service before where I'm actually being actively ignored or insulted, and the worst I've ever done is left a penny. If you leave no tip they could rationalize it as "he just forgot", but if there's a penny they know I remembered, and they sucked. I've only ever done this twice in my lifetime, and only after consulting (or attempting to consult) with management about the poor service and getting similar treatment.

    But the thing is, I should never have to be put in this position! Even in those cases where I'm still being actively treated like crap, I still feel guilty about tipping this way, even though it's clearly their own fault for shitting on me. Just pay people a fair wage and if I have a super bad experience I can just resolve myself never to go back there. The current system where I have to reward somebody for doing a shite job and being a jerk to me or else feel like a bad person sucks.

    I very, very rarely stiff...been a server, raised by a server, and as much as I (clearly) hate the practice I generally go along to get along. I don't tip high, I don't tip low, I tip the standard and call it a day. But yeah, if service is bad enough that I'm asking the question? It's gonna be a penny, nothing more. But I can count how many times I've done over the years this on my hands. And it's usually either actively insulting service, service so bad it cost me money, or trying to scam me.

    Like the pizza dude who tried to pretend he "didn't have change for a twenty." Yeah, I know that trick, but you aren't getting a $16 tip on this $24 check (two twenties was all I had). So told him to wait there while I gathered change to pay him exactly. About halfway through he offers to go "check my car, I may have change for a twenty out there." Nah bro, you shot your shot, your tip is gone. That kidn of thing. Yes, a dude actually tried that, and this was back in the day when cash payment was the norm.

    I've done the same thing with a cab where I noticed him fucking with the rate. Nothing obviously illegal just"oops" I stopped it late "oops" I took a slow route "oops" I made a wrong turn.

    Did end up tipping the dude, just reduced a lot for the extra he added on.

  • Options
    Albino BunnyAlbino Bunny Jackie Registered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    Yes. Let's look at the rest of the US.
    u930loizcdpi.png


    Here is the first problem. Great for Cali. Great for DC in 4 years. Great for Washington state.

    But the US isn't a single state. The real answer is a flat minimum for all workers at a national level.

    And then along with that a national shift through campaigns and possible banning of tipping to get rid of it.

    Sadly it isn't a "just stop tipping they get minimum wage anyway" answer.

    Like many things it a national collective action problem.

    So it will probably limp along till a national shift occurs.

    To the bolded, we have that. It's $7.25/hour. Servers are entitled to it same as anybody.

    When you tip, their employer gets to take part of your tips, and credit it toward that. The only thing you have to do in order to prevent servers from getting paid "less than minimum" is not tip.. No laws need change. We don't tip because servers make less than minimum, the causality is reversed. Servers make less than minimum because you tip.

    You are handing money to their employer, voluntarily, in the hopes some of it trickles through to the server. Which is capitalism in a nutshell, of course. But, like, I never throw extra money into the till at Best Buy hoping they'll pay the CSR more. Why would I do this at a restaurant?

    Because best buy doesn't pay subminimum wages?

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    joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    Magell wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    There is no tiered system.

    Everybody makes at least minimum wage.

    If making minimum wage is "getting fucked," then that's the part we need to fix. Because plenty of people are making at or near minimum wage in customarily untipped positions. No reason table servers are special here.

    Higher minimum wage is good but attacking the way folks can make bougie people pay them twice their rate isn't praxis.

    Social pressure is applied to the bougie and non-bougie alike.

    The social pressure to tip the customary percentage was no less when I was scraping by on $8.25 slinging boxes at Target than it is now that I make six figures.

    Except the rich people buy more expensive stuff so the percentage of the tip is higher that's why the servers make more money at fancy restaurants. The rich people aren't tipping a high percentage, it's the same percentage, but on a higher amount.

    It also has the effect of creating a sub-caste system of pay for the service industry. Yes, expensive restaurants are always going to be able to pay more, but look at how the opportunities are disparate between minorities and white people at those establishments. And then explain to me why minorities working at less expensive venues should have their income dependent upon the clientele not being racist pieces of shit.

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    Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular
    edited March 2023
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    Yes. Let's look at the rest of the US.
    u930loizcdpi.png


    Here is the first problem. Great for Cali. Great for DC in 4 years. Great for Washington state.

    But the US isn't a single state. The real answer is a flat minimum for all workers at a national level.

    And then along with that a national shift through campaigns and possible banning of tipping to get rid of it.

    Sadly it isn't a "just stop tipping they get minimum wage anyway" answer.

    Like many things it a national collective action problem.

    So it will probably limp along till a national shift occurs.

    To the bolded, we have that. It's $7.25/hour. Servers are entitled to it same as anybody.

    When you tip, their employer gets to take part of your tips, and credit it toward that. The only thing you have to do in order to prevent servers from getting paid "less than minimum" is not tip.. No laws need change. We don't tip because servers make less than minimum, the causality is reversed. Servers make less than minimum because you tip.

    You are handing money to their employer, voluntarily, in the hopes some of it trickles through to the server. Which is capitalism in a nutshell, of course. But, like, I never throw extra money into the till at Best Buy hoping they'll pay the CSR more. Why would I do this at a restaurant?

    Because best buy doesn't pay subminimum wages?

    Neither do restaurants. no one does. If you work a shift and get less than $7.25 after the tipped minimum + tips, the employer must pay you until you made $7.25

    Phoenix-D on
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    MagellMagell Detroit Machine Guns Fort MyersRegistered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    Yes. Let's look at the rest of the US.
    u930loizcdpi.png


    Here is the first problem. Great for Cali. Great for DC in 4 years. Great for Washington state.

    But the US isn't a single state. The real answer is a flat minimum for all workers at a national level.

    And then along with that a national shift through campaigns and possible banning of tipping to get rid of it.

    Sadly it isn't a "just stop tipping they get minimum wage anyway" answer.

    Like many things it a national collective action problem.

    So it will probably limp along till a national shift occurs.

    To the bolded, we have that. It's $7.25/hour. Servers are entitled to it same as anybody.

    When you tip, their employer gets to take part of your tips, and credit it toward that. The only thing you have to do in order to prevent servers from getting paid "less than minimum" is not tip.. No laws need change. We don't tip because servers make less than minimum, the causality is reversed. Servers make less than minimum because you tip.

    You are handing money to their employer, voluntarily, in the hopes some of it trickles through to the server. Which is capitalism in a nutshell, of course. But, like, I never throw extra money into the till at Best Buy hoping they'll pay the CSR more. Why would I do this at a restaurant?

    Also that doesn't really work because you would have to stop everybody from tipping.

    I mean if I bought something bulky and the associate helped me put it in my car I would tip them at Best Buy.

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    ZekZek Registered User regular
    For me, nothing's changed. Tipping is for direct customer service beyond simply working the cash register. Restaurants, delivery, taxis, haircuts, etc. I will not tip for takeout. I'm already not a fan of tipping as a concept, you can't make me complicit in expanding this detestable custom.

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    Casual EddyCasual Eddy The Astral PlaneRegistered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    Yes. Let's look at the rest of the US.
    u930loizcdpi.png


    Here is the first problem. Great for Cali. Great for DC in 4 years. Great for Washington state.

    But the US isn't a single state. The real answer is a flat minimum for all workers at a national level.

    And then along with that a national shift through campaigns and possible banning of tipping to get rid of it.

    Sadly it isn't a "just stop tipping they get minimum wage anyway" answer.

    Like many things it a national collective action problem.

    So it will probably limp along till a national shift occurs.

    To the bolded, we have that. It's $7.25/hour. Servers are entitled to it same as anybody.

    When you tip, their employer gets to take part of your tips, and credit it toward that. The only thing you have to do in order to prevent servers from getting paid "less than minimum" is not tip.. No laws need change. We don't tip because servers make less than minimum, the causality is reversed. Servers make less than minimum because you tip.

    You are handing money to their employer, voluntarily, in the hopes some of it trickles through to the server. Which is capitalism in a nutshell, of course. But, like, I never throw extra money into the till at Best Buy hoping they'll pay the CSR more. Why would I do this at a restaurant?

    These are…. Completely different things?

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    Casual EddyCasual Eddy The Astral PlaneRegistered User regular
    Good news everyone, we can actually help servers by tipping them less

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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    I also suspect that a lot of people who argue they make more with tips than they ever would on a salary are either working for a very high-end restaurant where the tips by default are going to be very high on account of the bill totals just being higher, or aren't actually doing the math. Or both. It could also very well be the case that this is their situation because they aren't declaring all their cash tips as income to the IRS, which is very common practice.

    Well it's a zero-risk proposition. You cannot legally make less than the minimum, making minimum wage the functional floor for pay. If other service industry jobs are paying more or less at or near the minimum, serving tables is a no-brainer.

    The question is, how much would carrying food across a room pay if not for tips? I'd argue that, most likely, it would also be at or near minimum wage. So yeah, any server is almost certainly making substantially more hourly with tipping than they'd make without, just logically.

    As for undercounting tips for taxes, it's been decades since I carried a tray but from what I understand it's not as easy as it used to be. Too many people pay and tip via card now, and the IRS also has systems in place that restaurants use to "allocate" tips based on check size. Still a thing obviously, but less.

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    Albino BunnyAlbino Bunny Jackie Registered User regular
    Just keep tipping servers more till the way USA managers seem to handle shit causes infinite knife, I mean patriotic gun murders.

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    MagellMagell Detroit Machine Guns Fort MyersRegistered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    I also suspect that a lot of people who argue they make more with tips than they ever would on a salary are either working for a very high-end restaurant where the tips by default are going to be very high on account of the bill totals just being higher, or aren't actually doing the math. Or both. It could also very well be the case that this is their situation because they aren't declaring all their cash tips as income to the IRS, which is very common practice.

    Well it's a zero-risk proposition. You cannot legally make less than the minimum, making minimum wage the functional floor for pay. If other service industry jobs are paying more or less at or near the minimum, serving tables is a no-brainer.

    The question is, how much would carrying food across a room pay if not for tips? I'd argue that, most likely, it would also be at or near minimum wage. So yeah, any server is almost certainly making substantially more hourly with tipping than they'd make without, just logically.

    As for undercounting tips for taxes, it's been decades since I carried a tray but from what I understand it's not as easy as it used to be. Too many people pay and tip via card now, and the IRS also has systems in place that restaurants use to "allocate" tips based on check size. Still a thing obviously, but less.

    I guess you've been a server, but it's a lot more than carrying food across a room as their job, but okay.

  • Options
    Casual EddyCasual Eddy The Astral PlaneRegistered User regular
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    Yes. Let's look at the rest of the US.
    u930loizcdpi.png


    Here is the first problem. Great for Cali. Great for DC in 4 years. Great for Washington state.

    But the US isn't a single state. The real answer is a flat minimum for all workers at a national level.

    And then along with that a national shift through campaigns and possible banning of tipping to get rid of it.

    Sadly it isn't a "just stop tipping they get minimum wage anyway" answer.

    Like many things it a national collective action problem.

    So it will probably limp along till a national shift occurs.

    To the bolded, we have that. It's $7.25/hour. Servers are entitled to it same as anybody.

    When you tip, their employer gets to take part of your tips, and credit it toward that. The only thing you have to do in order to prevent servers from getting paid "less than minimum" is not tip.. No laws need change. We don't tip because servers make less than minimum, the causality is reversed. Servers make less than minimum because you tip.

    You are handing money to their employer, voluntarily, in the hopes some of it trickles through to the server. Which is capitalism in a nutshell, of course. But, like, I never throw extra money into the till at Best Buy hoping they'll pay the CSR more. Why would I do this at a restaurant?

    Because best buy doesn't pay subminimum wages?

    Neither do restaurants. no one does. If you work a shift and get less than $7.25 after the tipped minimum + tips, the employer must pay you until you made $7.25

    People aren’t going to work at a restaurant for 7.25. Severs rarely get any kind of benefits (including healthcare), they often don’t get paid time off, and it tends to be a stressful job where you absorb abuse from entitled and often drunk customers

  • Options
    Albino BunnyAlbino Bunny Jackie Registered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    I also suspect that a lot of people who argue they make more with tips than they ever would on a salary are either working for a very high-end restaurant where the tips by default are going to be very high on account of the bill totals just being higher, or aren't actually doing the math. Or both. It could also very well be the case that this is their situation because they aren't declaring all their cash tips as income to the IRS, which is very common practice.

    Well it's a zero-risk proposition. You cannot legally make less than the minimum, making minimum wage the functional floor for pay. If other service industry jobs are paying more or less at or near the minimum, serving tables is a no-brainer.

    The question is, how much would carrying food across a room pay if not for tips? I'd argue that, most likely, it would also be at or near minimum wage. So yeah, any server is almost certainly making substantially more hourly with tipping than they'd make without, just logically.

    As for undercounting tips for taxes, it's been decades since I carried a tray but from what I understand it's not as easy as it used to be. Too many people pay and tip via card now, and the IRS also has systems in place that restaurants use to "allocate" tips based on check size. Still a thing obviously, but less.

    So you agree these high end servers make more due to their clientele but it's not formally recognized?

  • Options
    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    Zek wrote: »
    For me, nothing's changed. Tipping is for direct customer service beyond simply working the cash register. Restaurants, delivery, taxis, haircuts, etc. I will not tip for takeout. I'm already not a fan of tipping as a concept, you can't make me complicit in expanding this detestable custom.

    Why is working a cash register worth only minimum wage to you?

    Why is carrying a tray worth more?

  • Options
    Casual EddyCasual Eddy The Astral PlaneRegistered User regular
    edited March 2023
    Magell wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    I also suspect that a lot of people who argue they make more with tips than they ever would on a salary are either working for a very high-end restaurant where the tips by default are going to be very high on account of the bill totals just being higher, or aren't actually doing the math. Or both. It could also very well be the case that this is their situation because they aren't declaring all their cash tips as income to the IRS, which is very common practice.

    Well it's a zero-risk proposition. You cannot legally make less than the minimum, making minimum wage the functional floor for pay. If other service industry jobs are paying more or less at or near the minimum, serving tables is a no-brainer.

    The question is, how much would carrying food across a room pay if not for tips? I'd argue that, most likely, it would also be at or near minimum wage. So yeah, any server is almost certainly making substantially more hourly with tipping than they'd make without, just logically.

    As for undercounting tips for taxes, it's been decades since I carried a tray but from what I understand it's not as easy as it used to be. Too many people pay and tip via card now, and the IRS also has systems in place that restaurants use to "allocate" tips based on check size. Still a thing obviously, but less.

    I guess you've been a server, but it's a lot more than carrying food across a room as their job, but okay.

    Agreed, this is tell me you’ve never worked as a sever without telling me you’ve never worked as a server territory

    Casual Eddy on
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    Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    Yes. Let's look at the rest of the US.
    u930loizcdpi.png


    Here is the first problem. Great for Cali. Great for DC in 4 years. Great for Washington state.

    But the US isn't a single state. The real answer is a flat minimum for all workers at a national level.

    And then along with that a national shift through campaigns and possible banning of tipping to get rid of it.

    Sadly it isn't a "just stop tipping they get minimum wage anyway" answer.

    Like many things it a national collective action problem.

    So it will probably limp along till a national shift occurs.

    To the bolded, we have that. It's $7.25/hour. Servers are entitled to it same as anybody.

    When you tip, their employer gets to take part of your tips, and credit it toward that. The only thing you have to do in order to prevent servers from getting paid "less than minimum" is not tip.. No laws need change. We don't tip because servers make less than minimum, the causality is reversed. Servers make less than minimum because you tip.

    You are handing money to their employer, voluntarily, in the hopes some of it trickles through to the server. Which is capitalism in a nutshell, of course. But, like, I never throw extra money into the till at Best Buy hoping they'll pay the CSR more. Why would I do this at a restaurant?

    Because best buy doesn't pay subminimum wages?

    Neither do restaurants. no one does. If you work a shift and get less than $7.25 after the tipped minimum + tips, the employer must pay you until you made $7.25

    People aren’t going to work at a restaurant for 7.25. Severs rarely get any kind of benefits (including healthcare), they often don’t get paid time off, and it tends to be a stressful job where you absorb abuse from entitled and often drunk customers

    And? This is unrelated to what I was responding to. Also hah if you think working retail is any more fun.

  • Options
    Casual EddyCasual Eddy The Astral PlaneRegistered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Zek wrote: »
    For me, nothing's changed. Tipping is for direct customer service beyond simply working the cash register. Restaurants, delivery, taxis, haircuts, etc. I will not tip for takeout. I'm already not a fan of tipping as a concept, you can't make me complicit in expanding this detestable custom.

    Why is working a cash register worth only minimum wage to you?

    Why is carrying a tray worth more?

    Dogg we get you hate restaurant workers no need to belabor the point

  • Options
    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    Magell wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    I also suspect that a lot of people who argue they make more with tips than they ever would on a salary are either working for a very high-end restaurant where the tips by default are going to be very high on account of the bill totals just being higher, or aren't actually doing the math. Or both. It could also very well be the case that this is their situation because they aren't declaring all their cash tips as income to the IRS, which is very common practice.

    Well it's a zero-risk proposition. You cannot legally make less than the minimum, making minimum wage the functional floor for pay. If other service industry jobs are paying more or less at or near the minimum, serving tables is a no-brainer.

    The question is, how much would carrying food across a room pay if not for tips? I'd argue that, most likely, it would also be at or near minimum wage. So yeah, any server is almost certainly making substantially more hourly with tipping than they'd make without, just logically.

    As for undercounting tips for taxes, it's been decades since I carried a tray but from what I understand it's not as easy as it used to be. Too many people pay and tip via card now, and the IRS also has systems in place that restaurants use to "allocate" tips based on check size. Still a thing obviously, but less.

    I guess you've been a server, but it's a lot more than carrying food across a room as their job, but okay.

    And working retail is quite often more than just scanning an item and clicking "okay" when somebody runs their card.

    But when they ask for a tip, we suddenly get very, very, very angry as a society. As demonstrated by the existence of this thread.

  • Options
    Raiden333Raiden333 Registered User regular
    Good news everyone, we can actually help servers by tipping them less

    Part of my job is processing expense reports and attached receipts. Had one today some executive asshole who makes several thousand dollars a month in consulting fees went to a fancy steakhouse, charged $160 worth of dinner and drinks, to the corporate card, and tipped their server a whole whopping $10. And it's far from the first time I've seen receipts like that.

    Maybe they're just ahead of the curve of this bold new technique!

    There was a steam sig here. It's gone now.
  • Options
    Casual EddyCasual Eddy The Astral PlaneRegistered User regular
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    Yes. Let's look at the rest of the US.
    u930loizcdpi.png


    Here is the first problem. Great for Cali. Great for DC in 4 years. Great for Washington state.

    But the US isn't a single state. The real answer is a flat minimum for all workers at a national level.

    And then along with that a national shift through campaigns and possible banning of tipping to get rid of it.

    Sadly it isn't a "just stop tipping they get minimum wage anyway" answer.

    Like many things it a national collective action problem.

    So it will probably limp along till a national shift occurs.

    To the bolded, we have that. It's $7.25/hour. Servers are entitled to it same as anybody.

    When you tip, their employer gets to take part of your tips, and credit it toward that. The only thing you have to do in order to prevent servers from getting paid "less than minimum" is not tip.. No laws need change. We don't tip because servers make less than minimum, the causality is reversed. Servers make less than minimum because you tip.

    You are handing money to their employer, voluntarily, in the hopes some of it trickles through to the server. Which is capitalism in a nutshell, of course. But, like, I never throw extra money into the till at Best Buy hoping they'll pay the CSR more. Why would I do this at a restaurant?

    Because best buy doesn't pay subminimum wages?

    Neither do restaurants. no one does. If you work a shift and get less than $7.25 after the tipped minimum + tips, the employer must pay you until you made $7.25

    People aren’t going to work at a restaurant for 7.25. Severs rarely get any kind of benefits (including healthcare), they often don’t get paid time off, and it tends to be a stressful job where you absorb abuse from entitled and often drunk customers

    And? This is unrelated to what I was responding to. Also hah if you think working retail is any more fun.

    I don’t recall mentioning funness of the occupation

  • Options
    Albino BunnyAlbino Bunny Jackie Registered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Zek wrote: »
    For me, nothing's changed. Tipping is for direct customer service beyond simply working the cash register. Restaurants, delivery, taxis, haircuts, etc. I will not tip for takeout. I'm already not a fan of tipping as a concept, you can't make me complicit in expanding this detestable custom.

    Why is working a cash register worth only minimum wage to you?

    Why is carrying a tray worth more?

    Neither of these are worth minimum wage and poverty. They are both cool folk working to put food on the table.

    It is, however, weird you are attacking the way service folk escape that minimum.

  • Options
    SummaryJudgmentSummaryJudgment Grab the hottest iron you can find, stride in the Tower’s front door Registered User regular
    edited March 2023
    It's hard because there is no real lever for patrons to effect living (non-tipped) wages for staff other than the accelerationism of not tipping and just making it impossible for servers to work at a place, which I don't really have the gumption for and there's no way to have people adopt that strategy together

    Plus I like tipping and I throw 5-6 bucks on the check when I go get takeout

    But I wish everyone just got paid a decent living wage and it's annoying for owners to subsidize their labour's salary by passing expenses onto customers the same way that it's annoying and shitty that Walmart assists their employees with applying for welfare

    SummaryJudgment on
    Some days Blue wonders why anyone ever bothered making numbers so small; other days she supposes even infinity needs to start somewhere.
  • Options
    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    Magell wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    I also suspect that a lot of people who argue they make more with tips than they ever would on a salary are either working for a very high-end restaurant where the tips by default are going to be very high on account of the bill totals just being higher, or aren't actually doing the math. Or both. It could also very well be the case that this is their situation because they aren't declaring all their cash tips as income to the IRS, which is very common practice.

    Well it's a zero-risk proposition. You cannot legally make less than the minimum, making minimum wage the functional floor for pay. If other service industry jobs are paying more or less at or near the minimum, serving tables is a no-brainer.

    The question is, how much would carrying food across a room pay if not for tips? I'd argue that, most likely, it would also be at or near minimum wage. So yeah, any server is almost certainly making substantially more hourly with tipping than they'd make without, just logically.

    As for undercounting tips for taxes, it's been decades since I carried a tray but from what I understand it's not as easy as it used to be. Too many people pay and tip via card now, and the IRS also has systems in place that restaurants use to "allocate" tips based on check size. Still a thing obviously, but less.

    I guess you've been a server, but it's a lot more than carrying food across a room as their job, but okay.

    Agreed, this is tell me you’ve never worked as a sever without telling me you’ve never worked as a server territory

    I was washing dishes in restaurants before I was old enough to legally work, probably before some people commenting here were born. I bussed, I served, I did events at a country club as well as Sunday brunches. I've also worked retail, both small and large. I've also done landscaping. I also drove tanks. Now I'm an engineer. I've been around.

  • Options
    Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    Yes. Let's look at the rest of the US.
    u930loizcdpi.png


    Here is the first problem. Great for Cali. Great for DC in 4 years. Great for Washington state.

    But the US isn't a single state. The real answer is a flat minimum for all workers at a national level.

    And then along with that a national shift through campaigns and possible banning of tipping to get rid of it.

    Sadly it isn't a "just stop tipping they get minimum wage anyway" answer.

    Like many things it a national collective action problem.

    So it will probably limp along till a national shift occurs.

    To the bolded, we have that. It's $7.25/hour. Servers are entitled to it same as anybody.

    When you tip, their employer gets to take part of your tips, and credit it toward that. The only thing you have to do in order to prevent servers from getting paid "less than minimum" is not tip.. No laws need change. We don't tip because servers make less than minimum, the causality is reversed. Servers make less than minimum because you tip.

    You are handing money to their employer, voluntarily, in the hopes some of it trickles through to the server. Which is capitalism in a nutshell, of course. But, like, I never throw extra money into the till at Best Buy hoping they'll pay the CSR more. Why would I do this at a restaurant?

    Because best buy doesn't pay subminimum wages?

    Neither do restaurants. no one does. If you work a shift and get less than $7.25 after the tipped minimum + tips, the employer must pay you until you made $7.25

    People aren’t going to work at a restaurant for 7.25. Severs rarely get any kind of benefits (including healthcare), they often don’t get paid time off, and it tends to be a stressful job where you absorb abuse from entitled and often drunk customers

    And? This is unrelated to what I was responding to. Also hah if you think working retail is any more fun.

    I don’t recall mentioning funness of the occupation

    You're notice the thread you're responding to is talking about why we don't tip at Best Buy but do tip servers. Albino Bunny tried to claim this is because restaurants pay less than minimum, which is false. You then tried to claim it was because of the working conditions at restaurants, but retail is just as shit. So yeah, you kinda did.

  • Options
    LostNinjaLostNinja Registered User regular
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    Yes. Let's look at the rest of the US.
    u930loizcdpi.png


    Here is the first problem. Great for Cali. Great for DC in 4 years. Great for Washington state.

    But the US isn't a single state. The real answer is a flat minimum for all workers at a national level.

    And then along with that a national shift through campaigns and possible banning of tipping to get rid of it.

    Sadly it isn't a "just stop tipping they get minimum wage anyway" answer.

    Like many things it a national collective action problem.

    So it will probably limp along till a national shift occurs.

    To the bolded, we have that. It's $7.25/hour. Servers are entitled to it same as anybody.

    When you tip, their employer gets to take part of your tips, and credit it toward that. The only thing you have to do in order to prevent servers from getting paid "less than minimum" is not tip.. No laws need change. We don't tip because servers make less than minimum, the causality is reversed. Servers make less than minimum because you tip.

    You are handing money to their employer, voluntarily, in the hopes some of it trickles through to the server. Which is capitalism in a nutshell, of course. But, like, I never throw extra money into the till at Best Buy hoping they'll pay the CSR more. Why would I do this at a restaurant?

    Because best buy doesn't pay subminimum wages?

    Neither do restaurants. no one does. If you work a shift and get less than $7.25 after the tipped minimum + tips, the employer must pay you until you made $7.25

    People aren’t going to work at a restaurant for 7.25. Severs rarely get any kind of benefits (including healthcare), they often don’t get paid time off, and it tends to be a stressful job where you absorb abuse from entitled and often drunk customers

    Same for retail minus the drunk customer part (usually, though I definitely had a few that were or high back in the day). Retail doesn’t tip.

  • Options
    Casual EddyCasual Eddy The Astral PlaneRegistered User regular
    edited March 2023
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    Yes. Let's look at the rest of the US.
    u930loizcdpi.png


    Here is the first problem. Great for Cali. Great for DC in 4 years. Great for Washington state.

    But the US isn't a single state. The real answer is a flat minimum for all workers at a national level.

    And then along with that a national shift through campaigns and possible banning of tipping to get rid of it.

    Sadly it isn't a "just stop tipping they get minimum wage anyway" answer.

    Like many things it a national collective action problem.

    So it will probably limp along till a national shift occurs.

    To the bolded, we have that. It's $7.25/hour. Servers are entitled to it same as anybody.

    When you tip, their employer gets to take part of your tips, and credit it toward that. The only thing you have to do in order to prevent servers from getting paid "less than minimum" is not tip.. No laws need change. We don't tip because servers make less than minimum, the causality is reversed. Servers make less than minimum because you tip.

    You are handing money to their employer, voluntarily, in the hopes some of it trickles through to the server. Which is capitalism in a nutshell, of course. But, like, I never throw extra money into the till at Best Buy hoping they'll pay the CSR more. Why would I do this at a restaurant?

    Because best buy doesn't pay subminimum wages?

    Neither do restaurants. no one does. If you work a shift and get less than $7.25 after the tipped minimum + tips, the employer must pay you until you made $7.25

    People aren’t going to work at a restaurant for 7.25. Severs rarely get any kind of benefits (including healthcare), they often don’t get paid time off, and it tends to be a stressful job where you absorb abuse from entitled and often drunk customers

    And? This is unrelated to what I was responding to. Also hah if you think working retail is any more fun.

    The point is no one works at a restaurant as a server thinking they will make minimum wage. They expect to make 15-20% of their sales. And so, like everyone else, they live their lives according to the outlook that they’ll make 20 dollars an hour (or whatever). When all of the sudden they don’t, because people think that causing them miss rent payments will help them somehow, it’s a huge problem! The minimum wage is not a liveable wage.

    Waiting tables in a high volume or high quality environment also requires a pretty specialized skill set that takes people a while to develop. It’s not an easy or low skill job if you’re trying to make a decent wage

    Casual Eddy on
  • Options
    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited March 2023
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Zek wrote: »
    For me, nothing's changed. Tipping is for direct customer service beyond simply working the cash register. Restaurants, delivery, taxis, haircuts, etc. I will not tip for takeout. I'm already not a fan of tipping as a concept, you can't make me complicit in expanding this detestable custom.

    Why is working a cash register worth only minimum wage to you?

    Why is carrying a tray worth more?

    Dogg we get you hate restaurant workers no need to belabor the point

    No, I hate the entire system of tipping, and how it privileges a few niches of service workers over all others.

    I know you want to play the "herpaderp I don't believe you" game, but you are telling me I hate my own mother right now, she was a server for almost her entire adult life. Which I very much do not, and I'm trying to be civil in explaining this to you because I want very much to not be. Again, I worked in restaurants for like a decade, including serving. You absolute goose.

    mcdermott on
  • Options
    Casual EddyCasual Eddy The Astral PlaneRegistered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Magell wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    I also suspect that a lot of people who argue they make more with tips than they ever would on a salary are either working for a very high-end restaurant where the tips by default are going to be very high on account of the bill totals just being higher, or aren't actually doing the math. Or both. It could also very well be the case that this is their situation because they aren't declaring all their cash tips as income to the IRS, which is very common practice.

    Well it's a zero-risk proposition. You cannot legally make less than the minimum, making minimum wage the functional floor for pay. If other service industry jobs are paying more or less at or near the minimum, serving tables is a no-brainer.

    The question is, how much would carrying food across a room pay if not for tips? I'd argue that, most likely, it would also be at or near minimum wage. So yeah, any server is almost certainly making substantially more hourly with tipping than they'd make without, just logically.

    As for undercounting tips for taxes, it's been decades since I carried a tray but from what I understand it's not as easy as it used to be. Too many people pay and tip via card now, and the IRS also has systems in place that restaurants use to "allocate" tips based on check size. Still a thing obviously, but less.

    I guess you've been a server, but it's a lot more than carrying food across a room as their job, but okay.

    Agreed, this is tell me you’ve never worked as a sever without telling me you’ve never worked as a server territory

    I was washing dishes in restaurants before I was old enough to legally work, probably before some people commenting here were born. I bussed, I served, I did events at a country club as well as Sunday brunches. I've also worked retail, both small and large. I've also done landscaping. I also drove tanks. Now I'm an engineer. I've been around.

    Why on earth would say it’s carrying a tray of food across a room, then? That’s needlessly insulting and incorrect, to boot

  • Options
    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    LostNinja wrote: »
    Same for retail minus the drunk customer part (usually, though I definitely had a few that were or high back in the day). Retail doesn’t tip.

    Try working at a video store close to midnight. Drunks are definitely a thing.

  • Options
    joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    Yes. Let's look at the rest of the US.
    u930loizcdpi.png


    Here is the first problem. Great for Cali. Great for DC in 4 years. Great for Washington state.

    But the US isn't a single state. The real answer is a flat minimum for all workers at a national level.

    And then along with that a national shift through campaigns and possible banning of tipping to get rid of it.

    Sadly it isn't a "just stop tipping they get minimum wage anyway" answer.

    Like many things it a national collective action problem.

    So it will probably limp along till a national shift occurs.

    To the bolded, we have that. It's $7.25/hour. Servers are entitled to it same as anybody.

    When you tip, their employer gets to take part of your tips, and credit it toward that. The only thing you have to do in order to prevent servers from getting paid "less than minimum" is not tip.. No laws need change. We don't tip because servers make less than minimum, the causality is reversed. Servers make less than minimum because you tip.

    You are handing money to their employer, voluntarily, in the hopes some of it trickles through to the server. Which is capitalism in a nutshell, of course. But, like, I never throw extra money into the till at Best Buy hoping they'll pay the CSR more. Why would I do this at a restaurant?

    Because best buy doesn't pay subminimum wages?

    Neither do restaurants. no one does. If you work a shift and get less than $7.25 after the tipped minimum + tips, the employer must pay you until you made $7.25

    People aren’t going to work at a restaurant for 7.25. Severs rarely get any kind of benefits (including healthcare), they often don’t get paid time off, and it tends to be a stressful job where you absorb abuse from entitled and often drunk customers

    And? This is unrelated to what I was responding to. Also hah if you think working retail is any more fun.

    The point is no one works at a restaurant as a server thinking they will make minimum wage. They expect to make 15-20% of their sales. And so, like everyone else, they live their lives according to the outlook that they’ll make 20 dollars an hour (or whatever). When all of the sudden they don’t, because people think that causing them miss rent payments will help them somehow, it’s a huge problem! The minimum wage is not a liveable wage.

    Waiting tables in a high volume or high quality environment also requires a pretty specialized skill set that takes people a while to develop. It’s not an easy or low skill job if you’re trying to make a decent wage

    This is pretty much why I explicitly put in my OP that I’m against refusing to tip on the principle of the thing. I think it needs to change, but not by throwing the service industry workers that already work some of the hardest, worst jobs in our society into the volcano to make it happen.

  • Options
    Casual EddyCasual Eddy The Astral PlaneRegistered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Zek wrote: »
    For me, nothing's changed. Tipping is for direct customer service beyond simply working the cash register. Restaurants, delivery, taxis, haircuts, etc. I will not tip for takeout. I'm already not a fan of tipping as a concept, you can't make me complicit in expanding this detestable custom.

    Why is working a cash register worth only minimum wage to you?

    Why is carrying a tray worth more?

    Dogg we get you hate restaurant workers no need to belabor the point

    No, I hate the entire system of tipping, and how it privileges a few niches of service workers over all others.

    I know you want to play the "herpaderp I don't believe you" game, but you are telling me I hate my own mother right now, she was a server for almost her entire adult life. Which I very much do not, and I'm trying to be civil in explaining this to you because I want very much to not be. Again, I worked in restaurants for like a decade, including serving. You absolute goose.

    You’re the one that just described her job as carrying trays across a room

  • Options
    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited March 2023
    mcdermott wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Zek wrote: »
    For me, nothing's changed. Tipping is for direct customer service beyond simply working the cash register. Restaurants, delivery, taxis, haircuts, etc. I will not tip for takeout. I'm already not a fan of tipping as a concept, you can't make me complicit in expanding this detestable custom.

    Why is working a cash register worth only minimum wage to you?

    Why is carrying a tray worth more?

    Dogg we get you hate restaurant workers no need to belabor the point

    No, I hate the entire system of tipping, and how it privileges a few niches of service workers over all others.

    I know you want to play the "herpaderp I don't believe you" game, but you are telling me I hate my own mother right now, she was a server for almost her entire adult life. Which I very much do not, and I'm trying to be civil in explaining this to you because I want very much to not be. Again, I worked in restaurants for like a decade, including serving. You absolute goose.

    You’re the one that just described her job as carrying trays across a room

    Everybody across the entire service industry works hard.

    "Carrying a tray across a room" is simply a concise way to rhetorically point out how ridiculous it is that there are only a couple specific niches of the broader service industry that, for whatever reason, patrons are expected to voluntarily hand substnatial amounts of money to. I'm sorry if the overly reductive nature of that description upset you. Yes, I do understand that the duties of the server go far beyond that.

    In fact, often in many establishments the server doesn't tend to carry the food across the room, that's what the food runners are doing. What a fraud I am!

    Can you let this go now, and address the actual point?

    mcdermott on
This discussion has been closed.