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Tipping/Gratuity Culture

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    Casual EddyCasual Eddy The Astral PlaneRegistered User regular
    edited March 2023
    I’m also surprised you’ve decided to adopt behavior that makes the lives of people like your mom worse, while doing nothing to improve them

    Lobbying to end tipped compensation would be infinitely more effective than just randomly electing to pay your servers less (it boggles my mind that you think this would do anything)

    You could also choose to patronize restaurants that use a flat prercentage or just charge more for food and don’t allow tips and just pay a living wage. Again, much more effective than what you’ve suggested.

    Casual Eddy on
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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited March 2023
    I’m also surprised you’ve decided to adopt behavior that makes the lives of people like your mom worse, while doing nothing to improve them

    Lobbying to end tipped compensation would be infinitely more effective than just randomly electing to pay your servers less (it boggles my mind that you think this would do anything)

    You could also choose to patronize restaurants that use a flat prercentage or just charge more for food and don’t allow tips and just pay a living wage. Again, much more effective than what you’ve suggested.

    Done.

    I've not lived in a place with a tip credit since Clinton was in office. So....it appears that eliminating the tip credit does nothing to change tip culture.

    mcdermott on
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    MagellMagell Detroit Machine Guns Fort MyersRegistered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Zek wrote: »
    For me, nothing's changed. Tipping is for direct customer service beyond simply working the cash register. Restaurants, delivery, taxis, haircuts, etc. I will not tip for takeout. I'm already not a fan of tipping as a concept, you can't make me complicit in expanding this detestable custom.

    Why is working a cash register worth only minimum wage to you?

    Why is carrying a tray worth more?

    Dogg we get you hate restaurant workers no need to belabor the point

    No, I hate the entire system of tipping, and how it privileges a few niches of service workers over all others.

    I know you want to play the "herpaderp I don't believe you" game, but you are telling me I hate my own mother right now, she was a server for almost her entire adult life. Which I very much do not, and I'm trying to be civil in explaining this to you because I want very much to not be. Again, I worked in restaurants for like a decade, including serving. You absolute goose.

    You’re the one that just described her job as carrying trays across a room

    Everybody across the entire service industry works hard.

    "Carrying a tray across a room" is simply a concise way to rhetorically point out how ridiculous it is that there are only a couple specific niches of the broader service industry that, for whatever reason, patrons are expected to voluntarily hand substnatial amounts of money to. I'm sorry if the overly reductive nature of that description upset you. Yes, I do understand that the duties of the server go far beyond that.

    In fact, often in many establishments the server doesn't tend to carry the food across the room, that's what the food runners are doing. What a fraud I am!

    Can you let this go now, and address the actual point?

    Being a server is a form of sales. Sales people get commission and I don't despite doing the work that they sell to the clients. That's how sales works. The server is making sure that the customer is having a good experience. That's why they get tips and back of house people don't.

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    Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    I think that the only people who truly benefit from tipping culture is business owners. And let's be honest, they like it because business owners hate paying for labor.

    People mentioned Best Buy, you know what my old manager at best buy told me? That labor was the most expensive product in the store and he wouldn't have his employees "stealing" money by doing a subpar job.

    American restaurants and bars get to charge patrons crazy markups for cheap liquor and then turn around and demand their servers and bartenders fork over some of their tips to help pay the other employees. They get to pay everyone less, including somehow setting up that the employees pay the other employees, and dance all the way to the bank

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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited March 2023
    Magell wrote: »
    Being a server is a form of sales. Sales people get commission and I don't despite doing the work that they sell to the clients. That's how sales works. The server is making sure that the customer is having a good experience. That's why they get tips and back of house people don't.

    And yet retail can be sales as well. But plenty of retail offers neither commission nor tips. So that's...not it. I've talked people through purchases of fairly expensive electronics before, utilized my knowledge of the specifications and their needs as described to try and pair them with the product that will work best for them, and done that for ten cents above minimum wage. Those customers never considered slipping me a fiver after spending $500 on a digital camera, nor did my employer consider adding a tip line to the receipt (or offering me a commision).

    I might suggest that most of the justifications for why tipping is a thing and/or should continue to be are after-the-fact justifications, and bear little relation to why we actually tip servers.

    EDIT: From my understanding, which may be incorrect, the origins in the US largely center around companies not wanting to pay recently freed slaves, and customers "voluntarily" offering them a bit of cash here and there was considered a right and proper way to compensate them. Because, ya know, they weren't owed anything.

    mcdermott on
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    Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    People actually did try to tip me at best buy fairly often, especially when I worked in cell phones and elderly people needed like, to be hand held through the process.

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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited March 2023
    People actually did try to tip me at best buy fairly often, especially when I worked in cell phones and elderly people needed like, to be hand held through the process.

    Huh. I can't recall ever being offered tips at any of my retail jobs (except when bagging groceries). Maybe I sucked at customer service...

    mcdermott on
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    Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    People actually did try to tip me at best buy fairly often, especially when I worked in cell phones and elderly people needed like, to be hand held through the process.

    Huh. I can't recall ever being offered tips at any of my retail jobs (except when bagging groceries). Maybe I sucked at customer service...

    Probably depends on the area you live in; I'm in the suburbs with a bunch of rich, elderly white folks so that probably helps

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    MegaMan001MegaMan001 CRNA Rochester, MNRegistered User regular
    I tip 20% period and $5 per rideshare experience.

    I hate tipping, just pay everyone a living wage, Jesus Christ.


    I am in the business of saving lives.
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    MagellMagell Detroit Machine Guns Fort MyersRegistered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Magell wrote: »
    Being a server is a form of sales. Sales people get commission and I don't despite doing the work that they sell to the clients. That's how sales works. The server is making sure that the customer is having a good experience. That's why they get tips and back of house people don't.

    And yet retail can be sales as well. But plenty of retail offers neither commission nor tips. So that's...not it. I've talked people through purchases of fairly expensive electronics before, utilized my knowledge of the specifications and their needs as described to try and pair them with the product that will work best for them, and done that for ten cents above minimum wage. Those customers never considered slipping me a fiver after spending $500 on a digital camera, nor did my employer consider adding a tip line to the receipt (or offering me a commision).

    I might suggest that most of the justifications for why tipping is a thing and/or should continue to be are after-the-fact justifications, and bear little relation to why we actually tip servers.

    EDIT: From my understanding, which may be incorrect, the origins in the US largely center around companies not wanting to pay recently freed slaves, and customers "voluntarily" offering them a bit of cash here and there was considered a right and proper way to compensate them. Because, ya know, they weren't owed anything.

    A lot of people will tip retail workers if they have cash handy and they're being helpful, but employees are often scared of taking them because companies don't want them taking tips. They shouldn't rely on tips and it would be cool if tipping wasn't required, but even if they get rid of mandatory tipping, I'd still add extra to a server who does a good job. I especially feel that way in Florida where so many customers are old people who tend to tip poorly.

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    Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    Also re: elderly and tipping, I also worked as a cook in a retirement facility in near Austin, TX for a few years. I worked an open air kitchen (the old folks could come and up and talk to us, introduce us to their families) as well did Sunday brunch. I usually worked a station making omelettes or cutting slices of meat for them. Often times they would try to slide me a couple bucks directly. Tipping seems more ingrained in older folks in general as a form of gratitude but I feel among younger folks it can be a coin flip if someone tips fairly or puts 1 dollar down for an Uber eats tip.

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    HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    Magell wrote: »
    Some states and restaurants have gone to actually paying their servers minimum wage at least and generally put a notice on stuff about that that tipping isn't required, but minimum wage is still garbage pay so it's still not really good pay.

    I have a bunch of bartender and waiter friends so I always give at least 20% tip unless they are super garbage at their job. And even then I still tip because I know the pay isn't there. But outside of servers and barbers/hairdressers I don't really feel the need to tip anybody unless I want to give them extra cash because they are legitimately great at their job. But most places that aren't built on paying their employees less are pretty tough on not tipping employees. As much as I like Publix they make it pretty obvious you shouldn't tip the baggers even if they're taking your groceries out which can be pretty terrible in Florida weather.

    It is my understanding that all servers must get the minimum wage after tips, if their tips do not bring them up to minimum wage they have to be paid more

    The minimum wage being almost half the amount you have to make to afford a cheap 1 bedroom apartment in most of the US

    My understanding is that plenty of wage theft happens with that though and good luck actually getting paid that minimum wage.

    Wage theft is not limited to tipped positions though, so it's largely irrelevant to this conversation. Both the times my ex had to pursue her employers over blatant wage theft, it was untipped retail (both places were arms of the same corporation, even, and not some mom and pop shop).

    I would say that it is relevant that the tip credit system is more vulnerable to exploitation because you now have to argue with your employer about how much you did or did not make it tips compared to just being paid a specific wage.

    While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited March 2023
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Wage theft is not limited to tipped positions though, so it's largely irrelevant to this conversation. Both the times my ex had to pursue her employers over blatant wage theft, it was untipped retail (both places were arms of the same corporation, even, and not some mom and pop shop).

    I would say that it is relevant that the tip credit system is more vulnerable to exploitation because you now have to argue with your employer about how much you did or did not make it tips compared to just being paid a specific wage.

    Yes and no, with untipped positions you wind up arguing with your employer over how many hours you actually worked, which might seem easier to "win" but often isn't. At least in my experience wage theft fuckery there revolved around being made to work during breaks, falsified time clocks, working after clocking off, etc. If your employer is going to try to fuck you illegally, you're pretty much maximally vulnerable regardless. For example, one of the places my ex pursued was a Victoria's Secret, where the scheme was the manager asking you to clock off at your scheduled time but then "asking" you to do a few quick things (not that quick) on your way out. Of course the employees that refused were likely to see their hours cut.
    Probably depends on the area you live in; I'm in the suburbs with a bunch of rich, elderly white folks so that probably helps

    Yeah most of my retail experience was in college towns, wasn't nobody handing over cash they weren't either legally or socially obligated to. Everybody was broke as fuck.

    mcdermott on
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    spool32spool32 Contrary Library Registered User regular
    I do not tip for counter service at fast casual places, nor do I tip at food trucks, takeout, or random national chain coffee places. Basically if I used my own legs to retrieve the food, I am not tipping for it. However if I'm a regular at a location I will anyway, because I don't want to be known as the Guy Who Never Tips.

    Also can we talk about the situation where you're phone paying with square for takeout and it's just extremely obvious to everyone that you tapped No Tip, No Receipt because the same total is there now that was there when they pointed the screen at you? Look, don't glare at me cashier person. All you did was hand me this box! I'm not tipping 20% on a hundo for 30 seconds of interaction, I gotta check all this to make sure you didn't put mayo on it anyay. It's not even helpful to bag it! You screwed up the whole order last time!

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    joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    In my experience a lot of those people, like food truck cashiers for example, are actually upset that the tipping option is there because it makes it an awkward interaction. On more than one occasion I've had somebody tell me "just click past the tipping thing, don't worry about it"

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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    spool32 wrote: »
    I do not tip for counter service at fast casual places, nor do I tip at food trucks, takeout, or random national chain coffee places. Basically if I used my own legs to retrieve the food, I am not tipping for it. However if I'm a regular at a location I will anyway, because I don't want to be known as the Guy Who Never Tips.

    Also can we talk about the situation where you're phone paying with square for takeout and it's just extremely obvious to everyone that you tapped No Tip, No Receipt because the same total is there now that was there when they pointed the screen at you? Look, don't glare at me cashier person. All you did was hand me this box! I'm not tipping 20% on a hundo for 30 seconds of interaction, I gotta check all this to make sure you didn't put mayo on it anyay. It's not even helpful to bag it! You screwed up the whole order last time!

    I was going the "enter a custom tip for a buck or two" route for a while on these, until I finally realized that was just as awkward so fuck it I'll keep my dollar. Like there's no world in which I should feel bad about paying...what I owe.

    One thing I find wild though is how many people will rush to the defense of tipping for the specific positions for which it is already customary, but also complain about the expansion of tipping into transactions where it wasn't. Like okay you want servers to make a living wage so that's why we have to keep tipping them. Cool. But you don't want cashiers to make a living wage? Why don't we start tipping them too? Because there is no logical basis by which to state that ending tipping for servers will harm them (implying the inverse, that tipping is "good" for servers) but that expanding tipping will somehow be bad for non-servers. At absolute best it's a "fuck it, can't save everybody" attitude that I find insulting as hell to everybody in a customarily untipped profession.

    Like I've seen posts in other forums where somebody will be explaining how moving to straight wages can't work for servers and bartenders because "I'd never make anywhere near what I make now" and yet that same person in that same thread will talk about how "I'm not gonna tip somebody just for ringing me up," which is the epitome of "fuck you got mine" to me. I know that's Not All Servers, obviously, but it's a pretty common sentiment among everybody, including servers. I don't think it's intentional either, people just often don't think through the implications of their positions.

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    MagellMagell Detroit Machine Guns Fort MyersRegistered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    spool32 wrote: »
    I do not tip for counter service at fast casual places, nor do I tip at food trucks, takeout, or random national chain coffee places. Basically if I used my own legs to retrieve the food, I am not tipping for it. However if I'm a regular at a location I will anyway, because I don't want to be known as the Guy Who Never Tips.

    Also can we talk about the situation where you're phone paying with square for takeout and it's just extremely obvious to everyone that you tapped No Tip, No Receipt because the same total is there now that was there when they pointed the screen at you? Look, don't glare at me cashier person. All you did was hand me this box! I'm not tipping 20% on a hundo for 30 seconds of interaction, I gotta check all this to make sure you didn't put mayo on it anyay. It's not even helpful to bag it! You screwed up the whole order last time!

    I was going the "enter a custom tip for a buck or two" route for a while on these, until I finally realized that was just as awkward so fuck it I'll keep my dollar. Like there's no world in which I should feel bad about paying...what I owe.

    One thing I find wild though is how many people will rush to the defense of tipping for the specific positions for which it is already customary, but also complain about the expansion of tipping into transactions where it wasn't. Like okay you want servers to make a living wage so that's why we have to keep tipping them. Cool. But you don't want cashiers to make a living wage? Why don't we start tipping them too? Because there is no logical basis by which to state that ending tipping for servers will harm them (implying the inverse, that tipping is "good" for servers) but that expanding tipping will somehow be bad for non-servers. At absolute best it's a "fuck it, can't save everybody" attitude that I find insulting as hell to everybody in a customarily untipped profession.

    Like I've seen posts in other forums where somebody will be explaining how moving to straight wages can't work for servers and bartenders because "I'd never make anywhere near what I make now" and yet that same person in that same thread will talk about how "I'm not gonna tip somebody just for ringing me up," which is the epitome of "fuck you got mine" to me. I know that's Not All Servers, obviously, but it's a pretty common sentiment among everybody, including servers. I don't think it's intentional either, people just often don't think through the implications of their positions.

    A server or bartender spends a lot more time with a customer than a cashier does and it's a much different interaction. I also don't tip cashiers because they're all bad at their jobs and I was way better when I was a cashier and they do a dogshit job of bagging my groceries. I mean I do self checkout and I sometimes get myself a candybar when checking out so I guess I kind of tip my cashier.

    And what a bartender or server means when they say they won't make as much without tips it means they won't work the job at that pay because it's not a very good job without the ability to get a bunch of tips to be able to make a lot more at a time. They're saying if they don't get tips they would quit and do something else that doesn't suck and pays as well.

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    AiouaAioua Ora Occidens Ora OptimaRegistered User regular
    i want to try and craft a way of killing tipping that might be at least somewhat politically feasible

    step 1: fix the minimum wage thing
    this is just removing bullshit and as we've seen doesn't do much to stop tipping but i think is a necessary precondition

    step 2: remove custom tipping options at point of sale
    basically force anyone who wants a tipping-type structure to use the automatic gratuity system instead of leaving it up to the customer, set the rate (18% is popular) and how tips are pooled/distributed by statue

    step 3: require menu pricing to include the gratuity amount
    at this point the difference between a tipped and non-tipped establishment is invisible to the customer, which would make it easier for a business to change modes depending on which mode is better at attracting employees without worrying about scaring away customers with higher menu prices

    then, maybe down the line if these more tightly regulated gratuity systems remain common we can evaluate if they are still exploitative or actually beneficial for the employees

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    PaladinPaladin Registered User regular
    Tipping isn't a logically consistent practice so I tip like it's a tax. Quality of service doesn't enter into the equation. I just don't go back if I didn't like the experience. A single large tip is nothing; repeat business is real money.

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    ArchangleArchangle Registered User regular
    I also have to add that as a visitor to the US, tipping culture is incredibly confusing.

    Like, yes, for a restaurant it's obvious because there's usually a line on your bill for your tip, and it's usually a percentage - but I remember my first visit to the US and being very confused about who I should tip and how much.

    Someone helps with luggage to your room? Okay, probably worth a tip - how much? There's no original bill to get a percentage off. In my case, I'm pretty sure I carried my own bags but then someone showed me to me room anyway - am I expected to tip or is that someone trying to exploit my ignorance and get some free cash? I have no idea. I remember handing money to a taxi driver and trying to get him to take his own tip, which I know the taxi driver isn't supposed to do, so the poor guy probably stiffed himself out of a tip.

    No wonder service staff have a 50/50 luck with foreign guests - either we're great tippers or we're terrible tippers, because TIPPING CULTURE IS SHIT.

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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    Magell wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    spool32 wrote: »
    I do not tip for counter service at fast casual places, nor do I tip at food trucks, takeout, or random national chain coffee places. Basically if I used my own legs to retrieve the food, I am not tipping for it. However if I'm a regular at a location I will anyway, because I don't want to be known as the Guy Who Never Tips.

    Also can we talk about the situation where you're phone paying with square for takeout and it's just extremely obvious to everyone that you tapped No Tip, No Receipt because the same total is there now that was there when they pointed the screen at you? Look, don't glare at me cashier person. All you did was hand me this box! I'm not tipping 20% on a hundo for 30 seconds of interaction, I gotta check all this to make sure you didn't put mayo on it anyay. It's not even helpful to bag it! You screwed up the whole order last time!

    I was going the "enter a custom tip for a buck or two" route for a while on these, until I finally realized that was just as awkward so fuck it I'll keep my dollar. Like there's no world in which I should feel bad about paying...what I owe.

    One thing I find wild though is how many people will rush to the defense of tipping for the specific positions for which it is already customary, but also complain about the expansion of tipping into transactions where it wasn't. Like okay you want servers to make a living wage so that's why we have to keep tipping them. Cool. But you don't want cashiers to make a living wage? Why don't we start tipping them too? Because there is no logical basis by which to state that ending tipping for servers will harm them (implying the inverse, that tipping is "good" for servers) but that expanding tipping will somehow be bad for non-servers. At absolute best it's a "fuck it, can't save everybody" attitude that I find insulting as hell to everybody in a customarily untipped profession.

    Like I've seen posts in other forums where somebody will be explaining how moving to straight wages can't work for servers and bartenders because "I'd never make anywhere near what I make now" and yet that same person in that same thread will talk about how "I'm not gonna tip somebody just for ringing me up," which is the epitome of "fuck you got mine" to me. I know that's Not All Servers, obviously, but it's a pretty common sentiment among everybody, including servers. I don't think it's intentional either, people just often don't think through the implications of their positions.

    A server or bartender spends a lot more time with a customer than a cashier does and it's a much different interaction.

    That still isn't really a justification why this position should be a weird pseudo-independent-contractor relationship, rather than one in which their pay is between them and their employer. Plenty of other jobs in this world have extensive touch time with the client and aren't customarily tipped.
    And what a bartender or server means when they say they won't make as much without tips it means they won't work the job at that pay because it's not a very good job without the ability to get a bunch of tips to be able to make a lot more at a time. They're saying if they don't get tips they would quit and do something else that doesn't suck and pays as well.

    While I've definitely known bartenders and servers with professional degrees, and other marketable skills, in my (limited) experience a majority service staff aren't exactly swinging a resume that's gonna land them similar pay for similar amounts of suck. If there was another job that...as you put it..."doesn't suck and pays as well" then why aren't they already doing that job? Unless by "pays as well" you mean the new lower, hourly wage that the industry would likely migrate to in which case...again, what job? Are they going to go work retail or fast food? Even if they do, all that means is a shortage in the formerly-tipped positions, meaning restaurant owners have to pay more, in which case the problem is self-correcting.

    What it really boils down to is that it's pretty obvious that social pressure on patrons at the table results in an effective compensation for servers that is substantially above the actual market value for their labor. I do think table service would pay more than fast food or entry-level retail, because it is a slightly harder job particularly to do it well. But it wouldn't pay anywhere near what it does today, and frankly I'm okay with that. Because as noted before, servers are extracting that above-market compensation from the bougie and the non-bougie alike; I was tipping servers 15% when I was making $7.35 an hour, after all.

    And as it's been made clear from the start in this thread, nobody cares about the wellbeing of workers when a tip prompt comes up on a retail transaction...so I'll kindly ask that everybody spare me the "but what about the workers" rhetoric. I support higher minimum wages, universal basic income, single payer healthcare, publicly subsidized higher education, a four day workweek, and a stronger public pension system...among other measures. I'm leftist as fuck up in here. I just don't think that continuing to normalize panhandling at tableside as an ad-hoc solution for one very specific niche of the service industry is a healthy solution, and I really kinda despise the hypocrisy of not wanting to hand other service workers money not owed while defending the existing custom.

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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited March 2023
    Archangle wrote: »
    I also have to add that as a visitor to the US, tipping culture is incredibly confusing.

    Like, yes, for a restaurant it's obvious because there's usually a line on your bill for your tip, and it's usually a percentage - but I remember my first visit to the US and being very confused about who I should tip and how much.

    Someone helps with luggage to your room? Okay, probably worth a tip - how much? There's no original bill to get a percentage off. In my case, I'm pretty sure I carried my own bags but then someone showed me to me room anyway - am I expected to tip or is that someone trying to exploit my ignorance and get some free cash? I have no idea. I remember handing money to a taxi driver and trying to get him to take his own tip, which I know the taxi driver isn't supposed to do, so the poor guy probably stiffed himself out of a tip.

    No wonder service staff have a 50/50 luck with foreign guests - either we're great tippers or we're terrible tippers, because TIPPING CULTURE IS SHIT.

    Perfect example: I bet there are people here who tip servers like it's going out of style who have never tipped their housekeeping staff when staying at a hotel. Apparently this is customary though, something I didn't know until I was in my 30's. Because how would I?

    Like I bet even a lot of Americans don't know this.

    mcdermott on
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    ArchangleArchangle Registered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Archangle wrote: »
    I also have to add that as a visitor to the US, tipping culture is incredibly confusing.

    Like, yes, for a restaurant it's obvious because there's usually a line on your bill for your tip, and it's usually a percentage - but I remember my first visit to the US and being very confused about who I should tip and how much.

    Someone helps with luggage to your room? Okay, probably worth a tip - how much? There's no original bill to get a percentage off. In my case, I'm pretty sure I carried my own bags but then someone showed me to me room anyway - am I expected to tip or is that someone trying to exploit my ignorance and get some free cash? I have no idea. I remember handing money to a taxi driver and trying to get him to take his own tip, which I know the taxi driver isn't supposed to do, so the poor guy probably stiffed himself out of a tip.

    No wonder service staff have a 50/50 luck with foreign guests - either we're great tippers or we're terrible tippers, because TIPPING CULTURE IS SHIT.

    Perfect example: I bet there are people here who tip servers like it's going out of style who have never tipped their housekeeping staff when staying at a hotel. Apparently this is customary though, something I didn't know until I was in my 30's. Because how would I?

    Like I bet even a lot of Americans don't know this.
    It's customary to tip housekeeping? Well shit...

    Again, as an outside observer, I'm all for trying to help service workers push back against an exploitative system to earn a liveable wage - but as a foreign customer what am I supposed to be getting out of "good service"?

    Like - what's the difference in service between me ordering minimum charge sodas and water vs. me ordering $500 in drinks and the associated bump in expected tip? If I leave a $100 tip for housecleaning, do they scrub every individual corner and crevice in the room with a toothbrush? If I know exactly what I want at a restaurant and the actual interaction time less than 30 seconds (5 seconds to write down my order, 15 seconds to bring it to my table and 10 seconds to take it away), how is that service worth 15-20% (or more) of the bill?

    Stop pretending it's to get good service. Most of the time it isn't, and when it is its often in a super creepy way (see previous posts about female service workers). It's to plug a hole in a system, so please US - just plug that hole.

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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited March 2023
    Archangle wrote: »
    Like - what's the difference in service between me ordering minimum charge sodas and water vs. me ordering $500 in drinks and the associated bump in expected tip? If I leave a $100 tip for housecleaning, do they scrub every individual corner and crevice in the room with a toothbrush? If I know exactly what I want at a restaurant and the actual interaction time less than 30 seconds (5 seconds to write down my order, 15 seconds to bring it to my table and 10 seconds to take it away), how is that service worth 15-20% (or more) of the bill?

    Stop pretending it's to get good service. Most of the time it isn't, and when it is its often in a super creepy way (see previous posts about female service workers). It's to plug a hole in a system, so please US - just plug that hole.

    I mean some of us have either lived in or extensively visited other countries and cultures with no or minimal tip culture, and anybody who has is well aware that there is little correlation between service and tipping. I've gotten great service in Tokyo or Barcelona with no tip expected (or even accepted), and I've gotten utter shit service in Bozeman or Anaheim with the stinkeye when I rightly stiffed the server in question. Restaurants and bars exist and thrive in countries where tipping is at most kinda-sorta a thing, so clearly it's not some necessary aspect of the "personal service" that a restaurant provides.

    The entire idea that tipping is in any way whatsoever linked to good/personal service is a red herring. Again, to my knowledge the roots of tipping in the US largely go back to neither employers nor patrons feeling like they should be obligated to pay Black staff for their labor once they were no longer explicitly enslaved. That is the custom we are building on and perpetuating here. There's absolutely no good justification for why paying service staff in specific sectors should be some legally optional thing. It's absurd. The only reason there's any real resistance to doing away with it entirely is that ultimately at present it's mostly beneficial to those in those specific positions, and to the businesses that employ them...but at the expense of literally everybody else who ever wants to utilize those social spaces.

    Mostly it's defended because people grew up with the custom, to the point that not tipping is taboo, and because performative generosity feels good. The latter is the same reason the "standard" tip is 20% now, at least from what I can tell. Because when it was 15%, and you wanted to appear generous to peers that you were out with, you'd tip "a little more." Well eventually that "little more" becomes the standard, like a one-way ratchet. Because nobody wants to be Mister Pink. Pretty soon, maybe ten more years, 25% will be the standard...I think that is much more likely than the custom actually finally dying, at least in my lifetime.

    mcdermott on
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    tinwhiskerstinwhiskers Registered User regular
    edited March 2023
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Archangle wrote: »
    I also have to add that as a visitor to the US, tipping culture is incredibly confusing.

    Like, yes, for a restaurant it's obvious because there's usually a line on your bill for your tip, and it's usually a percentage - but I remember my first visit to the US and being very confused about who I should tip and how much.

    Someone helps with luggage to your room? Okay, probably worth a tip - how much? There's no original bill to get a percentage off. In my case, I'm pretty sure I carried my own bags but then someone showed me to me room anyway - am I expected to tip or is that someone trying to exploit my ignorance and get some free cash? I have no idea. I remember handing money to a taxi driver and trying to get him to take his own tip, which I know the taxi driver isn't supposed to do, so the poor guy probably stiffed himself out of a tip.

    No wonder service staff have a 50/50 luck with foreign guests - either we're great tippers or we're terrible tippers, because TIPPING CULTURE IS SHIT.

    Perfect example: I bet there are people here who tip servers like it's going out of style who have never tipped their housekeeping staff when staying at a hotel. Apparently this is customary though, something I didn't know until I was in my 30's. Because how would I?

    Like I bet even a lot of Americans don't know this.

    I 100% think this is bullshit, that was made up recently. And is purely part a social media creation and part the industry trying to hide/shift costs thing. Ohh I'm supposed to tip $x a night for 'housekeeping', wow that'd be too hard to work into a bill that is already a per night rate.


    Also if fewer than 1 in 3 people leave a tip, IT ISN'T fucking customary

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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    Ha, I walked out to the living room and the TV was still on (from when I was watching soccer earlier), and Dr. Phil is apparently doing an episode on this very subject.

    What I'm saying is that clearly joshofalltrades is a closet Dr. Phil fan.

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    AiouaAioua Ora Occidens Ora OptimaRegistered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Archangle wrote: »
    I also have to add that as a visitor to the US, tipping culture is incredibly confusing.

    Like, yes, for a restaurant it's obvious because there's usually a line on your bill for your tip, and it's usually a percentage - but I remember my first visit to the US and being very confused about who I should tip and how much.

    Someone helps with luggage to your room? Okay, probably worth a tip - how much? There's no original bill to get a percentage off. In my case, I'm pretty sure I carried my own bags but then someone showed me to me room anyway - am I expected to tip or is that someone trying to exploit my ignorance and get some free cash? I have no idea. I remember handing money to a taxi driver and trying to get him to take his own tip, which I know the taxi driver isn't supposed to do, so the poor guy probably stiffed himself out of a tip.

    No wonder service staff have a 50/50 luck with foreign guests - either we're great tippers or we're terrible tippers, because TIPPING CULTURE IS SHIT.

    Perfect example: I bet there are people here who tip servers like it's going out of style who have never tipped their housekeeping staff when staying at a hotel. Apparently this is customary though, something I didn't know until I was in my 30's. Because how would I?

    Like I bet even a lot of Americans don't know this.

    I 100% think this is bullshit, that was made up recently. And is purely part a social media creation and part the industry trying to hide/shift costs thing. Ohh I'm supposed to tip $x a night for 'housekeeping', wow that'd be too hard to work into a bill that is already a per night rate.


    Also if fewer than 1 in 3 people leave a tip, IF ISN'T fucking customary

    I mean even if there was a real tradition of it, it's gotta be dying now since nobody carries cash anymore and I've never in my life seen a tip line on a hotel invoice.

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    HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    Aioua wrote: »
    i want to try and craft a way of killing tipping that might be at least somewhat politically feasible

    step 1: fix the minimum wage thing
    this is just removing bullshit and as we've seen doesn't do much to stop tipping but i think is a necessary precondition

    step 2: remove custom tipping options at point of sale
    basically force anyone who wants a tipping-type structure to use the automatic gratuity system instead of leaving it up to the customer, set the rate (18% is popular) and how tips are pooled/distributed by statue

    step 3: require menu pricing to include the gratuity amount
    at this point the difference between a tipped and non-tipped establishment is invisible to the customer, which would make it easier for a business to change modes depending on which mode is better at attracting employees without worrying about scaring away customers with higher menu prices

    then, maybe down the line if these more tightly regulated gratuity systems remain common we can evaluate if they are still exploitative or actually beneficial for the employees

    Once everyone used digital payment you could maybe get somewhere but there is no practical way you can regulate people paying cash tips.

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    joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Ha, I walked out to the living room and the TV was still on (from when I was watching soccer earlier), and Dr. Phil is apparently doing an episode on this very subject.

    What I'm saying is that clearly joshofalltrades is a closet Dr. Phil fan.

    Mods?

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    amateurhouramateurhour One day I'll be professionalhour The woods somewhere in TennesseeRegistered User regular
    edited March 2023
    The doorperson and the driver make 99% of non-food related tips in hotels

    edit: doorperson being the valet(?)

    amateurhour on
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    AiouaAioua Ora Occidens Ora OptimaRegistered User regular
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    Aioua wrote: »
    i want to try and craft a way of killing tipping that might be at least somewhat politically feasible

    step 1: fix the minimum wage thing
    this is just removing bullshit and as we've seen doesn't do much to stop tipping but i think is a necessary precondition

    step 2: remove custom tipping options at point of sale
    basically force anyone who wants a tipping-type structure to use the automatic gratuity system instead of leaving it up to the customer, set the rate (18% is popular) and how tips are pooled/distributed by statue

    step 3: require menu pricing to include the gratuity amount
    at this point the difference between a tipped and non-tipped establishment is invisible to the customer, which would make it easier for a business to change modes depending on which mode is better at attracting employees without worrying about scaring away customers with higher menu prices

    then, maybe down the line if these more tightly regulated gratuity systems remain common we can evaluate if they are still exploitative or actually beneficial for the employees

    Once everyone used digital payment you could maybe get somewhere but there is no practical way you can regulate people paying cash tips.

    Oh yeah i intentionally left cash tips out. If a customer wants to slip a worker a fiver that's between them and the IRS, may they ever turn a blind eye.

    But that's not really a problem, see, cause at step 2 you're getting an automatic gratuity added to your bill already.
    If a business was trying to get around this they'd have to basically be all cash, and actively bucking the new standard where you just pay the amount you're told at the end.

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    SoggybiscuitSoggybiscuit Tandem Electrostatic Accelerator Registered User regular
    Aioua wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Archangle wrote: »
    I also have to add that as a visitor to the US, tipping culture is incredibly confusing.

    Like, yes, for a restaurant it's obvious because there's usually a line on your bill for your tip, and it's usually a percentage - but I remember my first visit to the US and being very confused about who I should tip and how much.

    Someone helps with luggage to your room? Okay, probably worth a tip - how much? There's no original bill to get a percentage off. In my case, I'm pretty sure I carried my own bags but then someone showed me to me room anyway - am I expected to tip or is that someone trying to exploit my ignorance and get some free cash? I have no idea. I remember handing money to a taxi driver and trying to get him to take his own tip, which I know the taxi driver isn't supposed to do, so the poor guy probably stiffed himself out of a tip.

    No wonder service staff have a 50/50 luck with foreign guests - either we're great tippers or we're terrible tippers, because TIPPING CULTURE IS SHIT.

    Perfect example: I bet there are people here who tip servers like it's going out of style who have never tipped their housekeeping staff when staying at a hotel. Apparently this is customary though, something I didn't know until I was in my 30's. Because how would I?

    Like I bet even a lot of Americans don't know this.

    I 100% think this is bullshit, that was made up recently. And is purely part a social media creation and part the industry trying to hide/shift costs thing. Ohh I'm supposed to tip $x a night for 'housekeeping', wow that'd be too hard to work into a bill that is already a per night rate.


    Also if fewer than 1 in 3 people leave a tip, IF ISN'T fucking customary

    I mean even if there was a real tradition of it, it's gotta be dying now since nobody carries cash anymore and I've never in my life seen a tip line on a hotel invoice.

    Also, since hotel owners are cheap shits you might only get your room cleaned once every 3-4 days. They never missed a beat pre 2020. Long term stay hotels have always done this but the room rates matched the service. Nowadays you can expect to pay more and get far less for it. They call “environmental protection” but I don’t reuse washcloths at home much less in a hotel. It’s really just a cover for cost cutting.

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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited March 2023
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Archangle wrote: »
    I also have to add that as a visitor to the US, tipping culture is incredibly confusing.

    Like, yes, for a restaurant it's obvious because there's usually a line on your bill for your tip, and it's usually a percentage - but I remember my first visit to the US and being very confused about who I should tip and how much.

    Someone helps with luggage to your room? Okay, probably worth a tip - how much? There's no original bill to get a percentage off. In my case, I'm pretty sure I carried my own bags but then someone showed me to me room anyway - am I expected to tip or is that someone trying to exploit my ignorance and get some free cash? I have no idea. I remember handing money to a taxi driver and trying to get him to take his own tip, which I know the taxi driver isn't supposed to do, so the poor guy probably stiffed himself out of a tip.

    No wonder service staff have a 50/50 luck with foreign guests - either we're great tippers or we're terrible tippers, because TIPPING CULTURE IS SHIT.

    Perfect example: I bet there are people here who tip servers like it's going out of style who have never tipped their housekeeping staff when staying at a hotel. Apparently this is customary though, something I didn't know until I was in my 30's. Because how would I?

    Like I bet even a lot of Americans don't know this.

    I 100% think this is bullshit, that was made up recently. And is purely part a social media creation and part the industry trying to hide/shift costs thing. Ohh I'm supposed to tip $x a night for 'housekeeping', wow that'd be too hard to work into a bill that is already a per night rate.

    Also if fewer than 1 in 3 people leave a tip, IT ISN'T fucking customary

    So you can search Google by date, and a simple "do you tip housekeeping" search restricting it to pre-2005 results turns up plenty stating that yes, yes you do. Just the first example with no paywall, there are many, including some from earlier years. I don't know if you're counting two decades ago, and in a pre-social-media era as "recent," but I've seen every indication that this has been a thing for a very long time. That, rather than being a "new thing" that is trying to be pushed, it's actually something that has been waning in recent years and that any mentions you're seeing of it are reminders and an attempt to ressurect it, not a new attempt to make it "a thing."

    And what 1 in 3 people not tipping housekeepers tells me is that people are shitty tippers and would rather keep their cash when nobody's looking, or when there's no social or service consequence. Unsurprising. Which goes back to that "performative generosity" thing.

    It's the same reason people hate the new trend of tipping retail at POS so much, because they want to keep their money but have to press "no tip" in public.

    EDIT: I'd actually wager that any time the answer to the question of "is this a service that was largely provided by Black employees in the pre-CRA South" is "yes," it's probably a customarily tipped position. Waitstaff, bellhops, housekeeping, drivers, etc. Just that some have held on more than others.

    mcdermott on
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    The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    From an NZer's perspective, where tipping is not a thing (Despite companies like uber trying to push it)

    I find Tipping super gross in practice.

    In principal, I'm not opposed to the idea of giving someone something extra when there service has gone above and beyond. but the idea that you HAVE to tip, that it's mandatory, that this is how servers make their wages etc and everything as i understand it works in America?

    Super. Fucking. Gross.

    Also it seems both actively customer hostile and actively worker hostile - a system that only really serves to enrich a small portion of the populace. So you know. Even grosser.

    I'm yet to travel to the US or anywhere where tipping is a thing, so i've not had a reason to engage with it myself yet - i imagine i would, because well, i don't believe in stiffing people. But the idea of it being manadtory is just grating.

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    DoodmannDoodmann Registered User regular
    IMBTA but pretty much only tip when socially shamed into it or when I legitimately have wonderful service or if I have a parasocial relationship with the worker (i.e. my local bar gets tipped more generously than the waiter at applebees in some other state).

    Anyway, tipping is racist and anti-american: https://www.npr.org/2021/03/22/980047710/the-land-of-the-fee

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    amateurhouramateurhour One day I'll be professionalhour The woods somewhere in TennesseeRegistered User regular
    Doodmann wrote: »
    IMBTA but pretty much only tip when socially shamed into it or when I legitimately have wonderful service or if I have a parasocial relationship with the worker (i.e. my local bar gets tipped more generously than the waiter at applebees in some other state).

    Anyway, tipping is racist and anti-american: https://www.npr.org/2021/03/22/980047710/the-land-of-the-fee

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    PaladinPaladin Registered User regular
    Do European cruise lines in Europe have the obligate end-of-trip itemized staff gratuity ritual that American ones do?

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    ElJeffeElJeffe Not actually a mod. Roaming the streets, waving his gun around.Moderator, ClubPA Mod Emeritus
    Covid kinda changed the whole tipping game for me.

    I grew up with 15% being standard (like, unless you piss on my food, you're getting 15%) with 20% being for really good service. Higher percentage if I just got, like, a slice of pie or something, because a tip of 50 cents is stupid. I still tip with those guidelines, because I see no reason not to. The nice thing about inflation and cost of living is that a percentage tip automatically compensates for that!

    (Note that I always feel weird about tips for things like expensive wine. I don't drink wine, so it doesn't come up, but why should the waiter get $20 if I order a $100 bottle of wine, but only a few bucks if I order a cheap wine? The bottle isn't any harder to set on the table.)

    Anyway, then covid hits and wait staff get screwed because nobody can sit down in restaurants, so when they opened up for take out I tipped 20% when picking up just to help them out. They would serve me if they were allowed, it's not their fault they can't.

    But now restaurants are normal-ish again, and my wife and I are of two minds. She thinks they should be tipped 15-20% for pickup because it's nice. I feel that I placed the order online, my only interaction with them is them handing me a bag, and them handing me a bag is not worth $10. (Also, these tips are always collected at the time of order. So I'm tipping $10 in advance in hopes that someone will eventually hand me a bag? Sorry, no.) I usually tip a couple bucks for something like that, since I guess they put the food in the bag too, but I don't value that the same as someone catering to me for an hour.

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    redxredx I(x)=2(x)+1 whole numbersRegistered User regular
    edited March 2023
    I am sorta slowly moving towards mostly getting hair care from sole proprietors.

    Moving from "I'm not paying that much for 45 minutes of time, and the establishment is setting the price and taking a big cut(or you're renting a chair)" to "I am now paying a pretty decent amount of money, in an amount you determined, which you're keep as much of as any other business owner who has overhead."

    I feel weird not tipping.
    I kinda ask, but it's maybe an awkward thing to answer.

    Same with like massages in similar situations with added weirdness due to knowing folks socially already.

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    amateurhouramateurhour One day I'll be professionalhour The woods somewhere in TennesseeRegistered User regular
    I think my take on it is that if I have a menu option to add a tip, I will, and if that goes away, along with the tip line on a receipt, I won't.

    Like, the people at WalMart in my area (for grocery pickups) don't take tips, and it took like three months before I realized that yeah, they don't. Like the employees don't want them (which is prolly some corporate camera shit, but removing the option does a lot, which others have advocated for)

    I'd like a US where tipping isn't necessary, but I'd also like a US without capitalism, so I'll keep tipping until then, if affordable.

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