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Tipping/Gratuity Culture

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    tbloxhamtbloxham Registered User regular
    Yeah no, people should definitely be able to afford to live working full-time.

    I remain extra unconvinced that making them more reliant on their shitty employers or the tipping lottery is the way.

    Yes there are obviously better options than tipping. That doesnt make this sanctimonious shit from the ice cream company pro worker or better than tipping.

    To me, serving ice cream is the literal definition of a minimum wage job. if there is going to be such a job, then ice cream scooping is it. It's a relatively pleasant job, where you interact with people who are typically in a decent mood (because they get ice cream), and your product is neither offensive nor toxic. There is hard work involved, but, not particularly non ergonomic.

    When you tip, the MOST likely thing you are doing, is overpaying the most overpaid worker. They receive the most tips, and so they are the one you are most likely to tip. Not everyone tips, so, you are almost certainly paying more than your fair share. Tipping doesn't get money to workers, it gets money to SOME workers. Usually the young, white, attractive workers.

    Now, you can say that you can ameliorate this with tip pooling, but, even then that means you are probably overpaying the overpaid SHIFT, since most tip pools don't just add up for the whole month and instead get split between workers on a shift.

    But then, we can say, OK, we'll pool the tips, and pay them out over the whole month, and then amortize the payments from each month over the next three to help provide stability. NOW we are treating the workers fairly. We tell them this in advance and give them detailed tables of the previous 12 months tip rates, and hopefully they won't fall for a gambling fallacy and overweight tips (by the way, by this point your highest tipped staff who wanted to keep tipping have all already quit, since they wanted to keep tipping for themselves, not their co-workers, so you are keeping tips for a staff who would rather have just made an extra $2 on top of minimum wage). Now the staff are fine.

    But now, you are screwing your customers. Your staff have been told that this additional tipping payment is reliable income. They are only working for you because they expect it. So, there is now no correlation between your individual service received and the pay of your server. There is no reason for me to specifically tip Jon, who made a great cup of coffee today, when Jenny made a terrible one yesterday. My tip is split equally between both. What this means, is that the only reason TO tip, is to provide stable income for the employees. But, why should I have to deal with all of that. Some people tip more than me, others tip less. Since my tip has zero correlation to my service, where do I tip. Logically, the right call is zero, since it is the only number that you know for CERTAIN means that you personally are not getting ripped off for your food. Because as soon as your tip is more than the mean tip, you are getting ripped off.

    So NOW we want to make things fair for the customers too. So, we post up a sign saying, "The mean tip in this restaurant is 17%" (less than anticipated, because many people genuinely do tip zero)".

    What you can see here, is that anything which attempts to treat customers and staff fairly pretty much immediately means "We have to kill tipping, thats step 1" because tipping doesn't work NOW. It doesn't work for the people who might need the tips, because they are the least likely ones to get them (older, minorities, etc). It doesn't work for the people who GET the tips, because they (like most people who have an untenably high income transiently compared to their lifetime mean caused by a short term property they have) will overestimate the durability of the income and make bad decisions as to saving vs spending. It doesn't work for the tippers, because they are getting stiffed to cover the costs of people who don't tip.

    So, we need to just stop doing it. And we don't ALL need to stop. The people we need to stop are the big tippers. The 30%,40%, 50% people. The ones who are handing out the lotto tickets which persuade the staff to accept tips as a big part of income, and encourage the high tip group to stay in the industry. They are the critical ones who side with the owners to keep tipping being a thing. If they stop, tipping becomes boring. It looks like regular income, exactly like it should, and people will stop miscalculating it, and instead work according to what they are paid.

    "That is cool" - Abraham Lincoln
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    Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    The argument here for several weeks has been that instead of tipping we should have a real livable minimum wage, which makes some of the pushback this morning seem sort of strange. No tipping and a minimum wage that may or may not be livable but is at least higher than some arbitrary other number?

    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    I dunno, this is just kind of turning into an amorphous, generalized labor discussion now so I'm going to bow out of that.

    I'm really, seriously doubtful that (except for the highest-cost restaurants) tipping allowed a lot of these Seattle ice cream service industry workers to live in the same neighborhoods as they worked, though.

    Their flagship location is Capital Hill, famous dwelling of drug users, musicians, students, sexual minorities and general ne'er-do-wells. So yeah, lot of people did. Its been getting harder as rents go up, lanyards move in, and wages fall behind.

    Yeah I’m pretty sure nowadays as far as residents go Capitol Hill is almost entirely tech bros and well off exchange students. Unless it made an impressive u-turn since I lived there a few years ago. It’s still got the rainbow crosswalks and clubs, at street level the vibe is still there, but it’s not where any of those groups actually go to live anymore. Far too expensive.

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    FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    Just to make sure we're still all on the plot: I've merrily gone down the labor and compensation rabbit hole specifically to disavow everybody of the notion that $18/hr is a particularly generous wage in Seattle.

    Tipping isn't a solution to shitty labor standards. It's barely a bandaid. But I'm still going to oppose any move that results in less overall compensation for low-wage workers.

    If Molly Moon Ice Cream (or any other business) eliminates tipping and immediately bumps up all wages by 15% or more, then I'm fine with that. If they increase wages by 20% across the board, then I'll celebrate. But eliminating tipping without raising base pay is going in the wrong direction.

    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.

    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
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    DoodmannDoodmann Registered User regular
    edited April 2023
    if we're going to look at minimum wage in the context of rental prices we're also going to have to get dacronian on the rental market because that shit is wildly out of control and has been for 15 years.

    Also living by yourself in a major metropolitan has always been an outlier. People have roommates, it's a normal ass thing.

    *edit* to be clear I'm not against any of this, I'm just pointing out that the current rental prices are inflated to the point that it breaks the math on a lot of stuff

    Doodmann on
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    joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    Feral wrote: »
    Just to make sure we're still all on the plot: I've merrily gone down the labor and compensation rabbit hole specifically to disavow everybody of the notion that $18/hr is a particularly generous wage in Seattle.

    Tipping isn't a solution to shitty labor standards. It's barely a bandaid. But I'm still going to oppose any move that results in less overall compensation for low-wage workers.

    If Molly Moon Ice Cream (or any other business) eliminates tipping and immediately bumps up all wages by 15% or more, then I'm fine with that. If they increase wages by 20% across the board, then I'll celebrate. But eliminating tipping without raising base pay is going in the wrong direction.

    Sure, I don't disagree with anything you wrote here.

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    FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    Doodmann wrote: »
    if we're going to look at minimum wage in the context of rental prices we're also going to have to get dacronian on the rental market because that shit is wildly out of control and has been for 15 years.

    Also living by yourself in a major metropolitan has always been an outlier. People have roommates, it's a normal ass thing.

    *edit* to be clear I'm not against any of this, I'm just pointing out that the current rental prices are inflated to the point that it breaks the math on a lot of stuff

    Politically we've had an easier time ratcheting up the minimum wage than we have adjusting any of the levers that keep housing prices from soaring. (And I know it's been a while since I've regularly posted in on-topic threads here, but housing policy is kind of one of my soapboxes.)

    That said, 3x rent is still a decent metric for cost of living, partly because high real estate prices drive up other prices.

    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.

    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
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    kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    R-dem wrote: »
    Yeah no, people should definitely be able to afford to live working full-time.

    I remain extra unconvinced that making them more reliant on their shitty employers or the tipping lottery is the way.

    Yes there are obviously better options than tipping. That doesnt make this sanctimonious shit from the ice cream company pro worker or better than tipping.

    It costs the business more to pay their employees this way, right? Like in Seattle you have to pay people more if they are not in a tipped job? And the business is taking pains to point out the toxic history of tipping?

    Washington State doesn't have that tip exception to minimum pay like other places do. I'm not aware of something that says non-tipped positions have a higher minimum wage here, I'm inclined to think that's not the case.

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    DoodmannDoodmann Registered User regular
    edited April 2023
    Feral wrote: »
    Doodmann wrote: »
    if we're going to look at minimum wage in the context of rental prices we're also going to have to get dacronian on the rental market because that shit is wildly out of control and has been for 15 years.

    Also living by yourself in a major metropolitan has always been an outlier. People have roommates, it's a normal ass thing.

    *edit* to be clear I'm not against any of this, I'm just pointing out that the current rental prices are inflated to the point that it breaks the math on a lot of stuff

    Politically we've had an easier time ratcheting up the minimum wage than we have adjusting any of the levers that keep housing prices from soaring. (And I know it's been a while since I've regularly posted in on-topic threads here, but housing policy is kind of one of my soapboxes.)

    That said, 3x rent is still a decent metric for cost of living, partly because high real estate prices drive up other prices.

    yea I'm just saying rent seems to be one of those things that can and will soar at any opportunity because we have such shit regulation about it.

    *edit* plus we wouldn't have to raise min wage if we reduced housing costs since they're typically the biggest monthly expense by a fairly large margin.

    Everyone being able to afford a 1 bedroom apartment in los angeles for instance is a meaningless goal since there literally aren't enough apartments for that so the market would naturally cause rent to be higher than that regardless of the pay level.

    Doodmann on
    Whippy wrote: »
    nope nope nope nope abort abort talk about anime
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    HefflingHeffling No Pic EverRegistered User regular
    edited April 2023
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Not being able to live where you work is a big contributor to hollowed out cities that close up shop at 6pm. Shit sucks. Capitol Hill nightlife is worth protecting.

    "Minimum wage is meant for kids and students" is just not reflective of reality.

    Out of curiosity, what would you set the federal minimum wage at? Gimme a number.

    $17/hr, ballpark. That should be minimum for low-income low-rent states like Arkansas and Oklahoma, where 1bd apartments are available for $1000/mo.

    Coastal states should have higher minimum wages, and expensive metro areas in those states even higher still.

    I don't want to speak for styro, but I'm going to take the low-end of rent on a 1BD apartment, multiply it by 3, multiply it by 12 months, and that will determine the absolute barest minimum that a full time worker should make in a year.

    In my ideal situation, we wouldn't have a federally mandated minimum wage, but we would have widespread unionization a'la Iceland, and we would have a UBI or basic income guarantee. I think that as matters of policy those are better ways to guarantee a minimum income for all adults. But in the absence of those policies, a minimum wage is what we can do in the short to medium term.

    I think your "monthly rent times 36" guideline is pretty reasonable. In Sacramento, you can get a cheap 1bd or studio for about $1000 if you shop around. Minimum wage in California is $15.50, which is about $32k per year, and I ran some numbers awhile ago to see if my 18 year old daughter could theoretically get by with a minimum wage job, and found that she could if she was frugal. (It was academic - she's living here rent free while she's in college at least, so it's not like she'll need to, but I was curious.)

    Someplace like my ex wife's hometown has 1bds avaliable for $600 or so, so minimum wage would be comparatively cushy there.

    I generally hate the idea of a federal minimum wage as a straight number, since by its very nature it's going to be either useless or onerous in most states. What they need is one indexed to the COL in each state, or something. I recognize that in our current climate any kind of intelligent minimum wage policy is impossible, but a man can dream.

    I mean, the whole purpose of having states and a federal government is so that the federal can address issues affecting everyone, and the states (or other localities) can address more regional issues. I think the current system of having a federal minimum wage that covers everyone and more expensive states (or counties or cities or whatever) have a regional minimum wage that is higher is the best option.

    Also, when discussing minimum wages, realize that Washington State has the highest minimum wage of any state, and California is close behind.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_US_states_by_minimum_wage#/media/File:Minimum_wage_by_state_by_year.webp

    Heffling on
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    syndalissyndalis Getting Classy On the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Products regular
    Sleep wrote: »
    syndalis wrote: »
    Sleep wrote: »
    Is it a 40 hour a week job? Yes it should approach the median income if not exceed it thus that the employee may live within walking or biking distance of the location in which they are required to do their work.

    Then it wouldn't be the median income any more.

    Cost of living fucking SUCKS, but working at a McDonalds in Midtown doesn't mean you should be able to afford to live there, especially since there is a good public transit infrastructure that lets you commute inexpensively, and depending on what you make, it might even be free.

    I don't think the answer is for the ice cream scooper and the burger flipper to be able to raise a family of 4 off of that work or cover all of life's bumps.

    The answer should be that those jobs are not where people in their 30s and 40s end up due to much better access to free education, including trades education as a means of getting into more lucrative work, and strengthening the social safety nets such that bumps in the road do not derail you. Minimum wage jobs for high school kids and folks in college as a means to supplement the home they are in, not as a primary income.

    Also, fuck tipping.

    working in the city center should absolutely mean being paid thus that you can live near the city center. No one should be forced into a commute to their jobs centralized location of more than a half hour to 45 minutes. Anything longer than that should be elective. Especially when you’re working an actually physically grueling job like anything at the service layer of our economy.

    The major flaw is thinking that service jobs aren’t what you do with your life and never could be. Might surprise you to find out. Service jobs aren’t just a phase of life job to everyone. Treating them like they should only be phase of life jobs hurts society in general and allows for the wholesale mistreatment of workers in those roles.

    Service industry jobs are a career just as much as programming or plumbing is.

    Then there is an entire class of services that either do not exist in the city center, or are so expensive that they no longer make sense.

    I just struggle with the thought that the answer is that everyone must be able to be walking distance from their job even if they are on the low end of the service industry and the job is in Midtown Manhattan, Beverly Hills, San Fransisco, etc. - that doesn't actually work unless we are also somehow unfucking the value people place on those locations.

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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited April 2023
    kime wrote: »
    R-dem wrote: »
    Yeah no, people should definitely be able to afford to live working full-time.

    I remain extra unconvinced that making them more reliant on their shitty employers or the tipping lottery is the way.

    Yes there are obviously better options than tipping. That doesnt make this sanctimonious shit from the ice cream company pro worker or better than tipping.

    It costs the business more to pay their employees this way, right? Like in Seattle you have to pay people more if they are not in a tipped job? And the business is taking pains to point out the toxic history of tipping?

    Washington State doesn't have that tip exception to minimum pay like other places do. I'm not aware of something that says non-tipped positions have a higher minimum wage here, I'm inclined to think that's not the case.

    Seattle has a small tip credit available, for small employers, it was brought up earlier. It’s something like $2 off of the $18 an hour rate.

    It’s also IIRC available to employers who provide $X in medical benefits, not just for tips, which is possibly a shady rhetorical trick Molly Moon’s is pulling; state $18 in compensation with “free health care” but actually taking that health care as part of their tip/benefit credit, so actual cash pay is less.

    Unsure if they’d be that bold though, they’re kind of a high profile business to play that game…people would point it out pretty fast.

    mcdermott on
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    Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular
    edited April 2023
    mcdermott wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    R-dem wrote: »
    Yeah no, people should definitely be able to afford to live working full-time.

    I remain extra unconvinced that making them more reliant on their shitty employers or the tipping lottery is the way.

    Yes there are obviously better options than tipping. That doesnt make this sanctimonious shit from the ice cream company pro worker or better than tipping.

    It costs the business more to pay their employees this way, right? Like in Seattle you have to pay people more if they are not in a tipped job? And the business is taking pains to point out the toxic history of tipping?

    Washington State doesn't have that tip exception to minimum pay like other places do. I'm not aware of something that says non-tipped positions have a higher minimum wage here, I'm inclined to think that's not the case.

    Seattle has a small tip credit available, for small employers, it was brought up earlier. It’s something like $2 off of the $18 an hour rate.

    It’s also IIRC available to employers who provide $X in medical benefits, not just for tips, which is possibly a shady rhetorical trick Molly Moon’s is pulling; state $18 in compensation with “free health care” but actually taking that health care as part of their tip/benefit credit, so actual cash pay is less.

    Unsure if they’d be that bold though, they’re kind of a high profile business to play that game…people would point it out pretty fast.

    Hard for them to have a tip credit when they don't allow tips.

    Phoenix-D on
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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    R-dem wrote: »
    Yeah no, people should definitely be able to afford to live working full-time.

    I remain extra unconvinced that making them more reliant on their shitty employers or the tipping lottery is the way.

    Yes there are obviously better options than tipping. That doesnt make this sanctimonious shit from the ice cream company pro worker or better than tipping.

    It costs the business more to pay their employees this way, right? Like in Seattle you have to pay people more if they are not in a tipped job? And the business is taking pains to point out the toxic history of tipping?

    Washington State doesn't have that tip exception to minimum pay like other places do. I'm not aware of something that says non-tipped positions have a higher minimum wage here, I'm inclined to think that's not the case.

    Seattle has a small tip credit available, for small employers, it was brought up earlier. It’s something like $2 off of the $18 an hour rate.

    It’s also IIRC available to employers who provide $X in medical benefits, not just for tips, which is possibly a shady rhetorical trick Molly Moon’s is pulling; state $18 in compensation with “free health care” but actually taking that health care as part of their tip/benefit credit, so actual cash pay is less.

    Unsure if they’d be that bold though, they’re kind of a high profile business to play that game…people would point it out pretty fast.

    Hard for them to have a tip credit when they don't allow tips.

    As I just stated, Seattle has a “tip or medical benefit” credit. Employers that are qualifying small businesses can take up to $2 or so an hour off the minimum wage for *either* of these things.

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    Stabbity StyleStabbity Style He/Him | Warning: Mothership Reporting Kennewick, WARegistered User regular
    Feral wrote: »
    Just to make sure we're still all on the plot: I've merrily gone down the labor and compensation rabbit hole specifically to disavow everybody of the notion that $18/hr is a particularly generous wage in Seattle.

    Tipping isn't a solution to shitty labor standards. It's barely a bandaid. But I'm still going to oppose any move that results in less overall compensation for low-wage workers.

    If Molly Moon Ice Cream (or any other business) eliminates tipping and immediately bumps up all wages by 15% or more, then I'm fine with that. If they increase wages by 20% across the board, then I'll celebrate. But eliminating tipping without raising base pay is going in the wrong direction.

    Then tipping is never going away I guess.

    Stabbity_Style.png
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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    Yeah like I said pages ago we might want to start making sure our grandkids know what the proper tip is for a hospice nurse, because at this rate this shit isn’t going away in our lifetimes.

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    Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular
    edited April 2023
    Feral wrote: »
    Just to make sure we're still all on the plot: I've merrily gone down the labor and compensation rabbit hole specifically to disavow everybody of the notion that $18/hr is a particularly generous wage in Seattle.

    Tipping isn't a solution to shitty labor standards. It's barely a bandaid. But I'm still going to oppose any move that results in less overall compensation for low-wage workers.

    If Molly Moon Ice Cream (or any other business) eliminates tipping and immediately bumps up all wages by 15% or more, then I'm fine with that. If they increase wages by 20% across the board, then I'll celebrate. But eliminating tipping without raising base pay is going in the wrong direction.

    They did increase; % is not clear
    we’ve increased wages for ALL jobs in our shops: ice cream makers, scoopers, shift leaders, delivery drivers, shop managers & chefs. starting wage for our entry level positions is $18/hour.

    https://www.mollymoon.com/tipfree

    Phoenix-D on
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    Death of RatsDeath of Rats Registered User regular
    Feral wrote: »
    Just to make sure we're still all on the plot: I've merrily gone down the labor and compensation rabbit hole specifically to disavow everybody of the notion that $18/hr is a particularly generous wage in Seattle.

    Tipping isn't a solution to shitty labor standards. It's barely a bandaid. But I'm still going to oppose any move that results in less overall compensation for low-wage workers.

    If Molly Moon Ice Cream (or any other business) eliminates tipping and immediately bumps up all wages by 15% or more, then I'm fine with that. If they increase wages by 20% across the board, then I'll celebrate. But eliminating tipping without raising base pay is going in the wrong direction.

    Then tipping is never going away I guess.

    Yeah, I think the wage issue is the more permanent one.

    No I don't.
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    Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    Just to make sure we're still all on the plot: I've merrily gone down the labor and compensation rabbit hole specifically to disavow everybody of the notion that $18/hr is a particularly generous wage in Seattle.

    Tipping isn't a solution to shitty labor standards. It's barely a bandaid. But I'm still going to oppose any move that results in less overall compensation for low-wage workers.

    If Molly Moon Ice Cream (or any other business) eliminates tipping and immediately bumps up all wages by 15% or more, then I'm fine with that. If they increase wages by 20% across the board, then I'll celebrate. But eliminating tipping without raising base pay is going in the wrong direction.

    They did increase; % is not clear
    we’ve increased wages for ALL jobs in our shops: ice cream makers, scoopers, shift leaders, delivery drivers, shop managers & chefs. starting wage for our entry level positions is $18/hour.

    https://www.mollymoon.com/tipfree

    Thats minimum wage in Seattle.

    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
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    syndalissyndalis Getting Classy On the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Products regular
    edited April 2023
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    Just to make sure we're still all on the plot: I've merrily gone down the labor and compensation rabbit hole specifically to disavow everybody of the notion that $18/hr is a particularly generous wage in Seattle.

    Tipping isn't a solution to shitty labor standards. It's barely a bandaid. But I'm still going to oppose any move that results in less overall compensation for low-wage workers.

    If Molly Moon Ice Cream (or any other business) eliminates tipping and immediately bumps up all wages by 15% or more, then I'm fine with that. If they increase wages by 20% across the board, then I'll celebrate. But eliminating tipping without raising base pay is going in the wrong direction.

    They did increase; % is not clear
    we’ve increased wages for ALL jobs in our shops: ice cream makers, scoopers, shift leaders, delivery drivers, shop managers & chefs. starting wage for our entry level positions is $18/hour.

    https://www.mollymoon.com/tipfree

    Thats minimum wage in Seattle.

    to be clear:
    The minimum wage is $16.50 an hour and you must be paid at least $18.69 an hour in minimum compensation if you work at a smaller company or chain with 500 or fewer employees globally where you do receive tips or healthcare benefits from your employer. Your minimum compensation is the sum of your wage, your tips, and the cost to your employer of providing healthcare benefits. You can't be paid less than $16.50/hour in wages, regardless of the amount of your tips or benefits.

    Technically they are paying 1.50 over what they need to, as I assume they have less than 500 employees and also provide healthcare.

    Really weird how hard people are attacking this place.

    edit: actually this is a reading fail on my part and also doesn't make any sense?

    Small businesses have to pay more if they provide healthcare? This actually looks kind of fucked.

    edit edit: nah, I was right the first time - they are paying more than they need to at the minimum. Apologies for the brain fart.

    syndalis on
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    Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    Just to make sure we're still all on the plot: I've merrily gone down the labor and compensation rabbit hole specifically to disavow everybody of the notion that $18/hr is a particularly generous wage in Seattle.

    Tipping isn't a solution to shitty labor standards. It's barely a bandaid. But I'm still going to oppose any move that results in less overall compensation for low-wage workers.

    If Molly Moon Ice Cream (or any other business) eliminates tipping and immediately bumps up all wages by 15% or more, then I'm fine with that. If they increase wages by 20% across the board, then I'll celebrate. But eliminating tipping without raising base pay is going in the wrong direction.

    They did increase; % is not clear
    we’ve increased wages for ALL jobs in our shops: ice cream makers, scoopers, shift leaders, delivery drivers, shop managers & chefs. starting wage for our entry level positions is $18/hour.

    https://www.mollymoon.com/tipfree

    Thats minimum wage in Seattle.

    As of Jan 1 2023. This policy is from 2019 when the minimum wage was $12 to $15 depending on if Molly Moons qualified as a small employer

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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    Just to make sure we're still all on the plot: I've merrily gone down the labor and compensation rabbit hole specifically to disavow everybody of the notion that $18/hr is a particularly generous wage in Seattle.

    Tipping isn't a solution to shitty labor standards. It's barely a bandaid. But I'm still going to oppose any move that results in less overall compensation for low-wage workers.

    If Molly Moon Ice Cream (or any other business) eliminates tipping and immediately bumps up all wages by 15% or more, then I'm fine with that. If they increase wages by 20% across the board, then I'll celebrate. But eliminating tipping without raising base pay is going in the wrong direction.

    They did increase; % is not clear
    we’ve increased wages for ALL jobs in our shops: ice cream makers, scoopers, shift leaders, delivery drivers, shop managers & chefs. starting wage for our entry level positions is $18/hour.

    https://www.mollymoon.com/tipfree

    Thats minimum wage in Seattle.

    As of today. But this policy (tip free, open pay policy, and the $18 starting wage) goes back at least three years based on some light googling.

    I’d suspect they’ll bump starting wage again soon, though obviously yes for the last four months this has been the minimum.

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    Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    edited April 2023
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    Just to make sure we're still all on the plot: I've merrily gone down the labor and compensation rabbit hole specifically to disavow everybody of the notion that $18/hr is a particularly generous wage in Seattle.

    Tipping isn't a solution to shitty labor standards. It's barely a bandaid. But I'm still going to oppose any move that results in less overall compensation for low-wage workers.

    If Molly Moon Ice Cream (or any other business) eliminates tipping and immediately bumps up all wages by 15% or more, then I'm fine with that. If they increase wages by 20% across the board, then I'll celebrate. But eliminating tipping without raising base pay is going in the wrong direction.

    They did increase; % is not clear
    we’ve increased wages for ALL jobs in our shops: ice cream makers, scoopers, shift leaders, delivery drivers, shop managers & chefs. starting wage for our entry level positions is $18/hour.

    https://www.mollymoon.com/tipfree

    Thats minimum wage in Seattle.

    As of Jan 1 2023. This policy is from 2019 when the minimum wage was $12 to $15 depending on if Molly Moons qualified as a small employer

    Ok but its minimum wage now. In the present. When people are currently working.

    Styrofoam Sammich on
    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
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    FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    edited April 2023
    Sounds like they either:

    Eliminated the small tip credit that they were taking advantage of
    or
    Raised their wages alongside the legally-mandated stepwise increases that Seattle has implemented over the last few years

    Kind of a shrug from me. Like, great, they're paying the legally-mandated minimum. They're not literally Satan's henchmanagers. Whoo.

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.

    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
  • Options
    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    Just to make sure we're still all on the plot: I've merrily gone down the labor and compensation rabbit hole specifically to disavow everybody of the notion that $18/hr is a particularly generous wage in Seattle.

    Tipping isn't a solution to shitty labor standards. It's barely a bandaid. But I'm still going to oppose any move that results in less overall compensation for low-wage workers.

    If Molly Moon Ice Cream (or any other business) eliminates tipping and immediately bumps up all wages by 15% or more, then I'm fine with that. If they increase wages by 20% across the board, then I'll celebrate. But eliminating tipping without raising base pay is going in the wrong direction.

    They did increase; % is not clear
    we’ve increased wages for ALL jobs in our shops: ice cream makers, scoopers, shift leaders, delivery drivers, shop managers & chefs. starting wage for our entry level positions is $18/hour.

    https://www.mollymoon.com/tipfree

    Thats minimum wage in Seattle.

    As of Jan 1 2023. This policy is from 2019 when the minimum wage was $12 to $15 depending on if Molly Moons qualified as a small employer

    Ok but its minimum wage now. In the present. When people are currently working.

    It’s true, they definitely should have had a bump to their starting salary pushed through prior to January, in order to keep people from being mad at them on the internet.

  • Options
    Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    Just to make sure we're still all on the plot: I've merrily gone down the labor and compensation rabbit hole specifically to disavow everybody of the notion that $18/hr is a particularly generous wage in Seattle.

    Tipping isn't a solution to shitty labor standards. It's barely a bandaid. But I'm still going to oppose any move that results in less overall compensation for low-wage workers.

    If Molly Moon Ice Cream (or any other business) eliminates tipping and immediately bumps up all wages by 15% or more, then I'm fine with that. If they increase wages by 20% across the board, then I'll celebrate. But eliminating tipping without raising base pay is going in the wrong direction.

    They did increase; % is not clear
    we’ve increased wages for ALL jobs in our shops: ice cream makers, scoopers, shift leaders, delivery drivers, shop managers & chefs. starting wage for our entry level positions is $18/hour.

    https://www.mollymoon.com/tipfree

    Thats minimum wage in Seattle.

    As of Jan 1 2023. This policy is from 2019 when the minimum wage was $12 to $15 depending on if Molly Moons qualified as a small employer

    Ok but its minimum wage now. In the present. When people are currently working.

    And the page hasn't been updated since 2019. They don't pay $18 now, it's $19. By law their minimum wage is $16.50.

    I think this is more "wages didn't keep up with inflation yet" and less the tipping policy.

  • Options
    HefflingHeffling No Pic EverRegistered User regular
    Sleep wrote: »
    syndalis wrote: »
    Sleep wrote: »
    Is it a 40 hour a week job? Yes it should approach the median income if not exceed it thus that the employee may live within walking or biking distance of the location in which they are required to do their work.

    Then it wouldn't be the median income any more.

    Cost of living fucking SUCKS, but working at a McDonalds in Midtown doesn't mean you should be able to afford to live there, especially since there is a good public transit infrastructure that lets you commute inexpensively, and depending on what you make, it might even be free.

    I don't think the answer is for the ice cream scooper and the burger flipper to be able to raise a family of 4 off of that work or cover all of life's bumps.

    The answer should be that those jobs are not where people in their 30s and 40s end up due to much better access to free education, including trades education as a means of getting into more lucrative work, and strengthening the social safety nets such that bumps in the road do not derail you. Minimum wage jobs for high school kids and folks in college as a means to supplement the home they are in, not as a primary income.

    Also, fuck tipping.

    working in the city center should absolutely mean being paid thus that you can live near the city center. No one should be forced into a commute to their jobs centralized location of more than a half hour to 45 minutes. Anything longer than that should be elective. Especially when you’re working an actually physically grueling job like anything at the service layer of our economy.

    The major flaw is thinking that service jobs aren’t what you do with your life and never could be. Might surprise you to find out. Service jobs aren’t just a phase of life job to everyone. Treating them like they should only be phase of life jobs hurts society in general and allows for the wholesale mistreatment of workers in those roles.

    Service industry jobs are a career just as much as programming or plumbing is.

    I disagree with the bolded. Employment is an economic decision in which you evaluate factors like wages and travel time to come up with an optimized solution. Anyone working in a city center but living outside of said city center has done the analysis and determined that the combination of increased pay and/or decreased in housing costs (for living outside the city) offsets the requirement to travel for that job. For a lot of people, the answer is that yes, it makes economic sense. Because city jobs do tend to pay better than country jobs. Especially in a place like Seattle, where the housing costs are 2.9 times the US average. There is almost nowhere in the US that is more expensive.

    If employers in city centers raised wages to a livable level, all it would do is cause even more commuting because you're just furthering the advantages of earning a city income with a country cost of living.

  • Options
    abotkinabotkin Registered User regular
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    Just to make sure we're still all on the plot: I've merrily gone down the labor and compensation rabbit hole specifically to disavow everybody of the notion that $18/hr is a particularly generous wage in Seattle.

    Tipping isn't a solution to shitty labor standards. It's barely a bandaid. But I'm still going to oppose any move that results in less overall compensation for low-wage workers.

    If Molly Moon Ice Cream (or any other business) eliminates tipping and immediately bumps up all wages by 15% or more, then I'm fine with that. If they increase wages by 20% across the board, then I'll celebrate. But eliminating tipping without raising base pay is going in the wrong direction.

    They did increase; % is not clear
    we’ve increased wages for ALL jobs in our shops: ice cream makers, scoopers, shift leaders, delivery drivers, shop managers & chefs. starting wage for our entry level positions is $18/hour.

    https://www.mollymoon.com/tipfree

    Thats minimum wage in Seattle.

    Sweet mother of god, can we please drop the Molly Moon bullshit?

    They instituted the tip free policy at least as far back as 2019.

    At that time, Seattle's minimum wage was $12 or $15 an hour (pdf link*), the lower amount being what Molly Moons would have been bound by even after eliminating tips, since they provide health insurance for their employees.

    This hyper focus on one inconsequential thing anytime a perceived opening from the "other side" presents itself gets tedious extremely quickly these days.



    *I've seen others mention when links are to PDF's, but I'm not sure what the exact reasoning is. Is it a security concern or something?

    steam_sig.png
    3DS: 0963-0539-4405
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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    Sometimes I forget that I am literally the only person on earth who has ever lived in central Seattle and commuted to an outlying county, because I absolutely hate money.

    (Not really, there was a whole ferry full of us, but still…not common!)

  • Options
    HefflingHeffling No Pic EverRegistered User regular
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    Just to make sure we're still all on the plot: I've merrily gone down the labor and compensation rabbit hole specifically to disavow everybody of the notion that $18/hr is a particularly generous wage in Seattle.

    Tipping isn't a solution to shitty labor standards. It's barely a bandaid. But I'm still going to oppose any move that results in less overall compensation for low-wage workers.

    If Molly Moon Ice Cream (or any other business) eliminates tipping and immediately bumps up all wages by 15% or more, then I'm fine with that. If they increase wages by 20% across the board, then I'll celebrate. But eliminating tipping without raising base pay is going in the wrong direction.

    They did increase; % is not clear
    we’ve increased wages for ALL jobs in our shops: ice cream makers, scoopers, shift leaders, delivery drivers, shop managers & chefs. starting wage for our entry level positions is $18/hour.

    https://www.mollymoon.com/tipfree

    Thats minimum wage in Seattle.

    As of Jan 1 2023. This policy is from 2019 when the minimum wage was $12 to $15 depending on if Molly Moons qualified as a small employer

    Ok but its minimum wage now. In the present. When people are currently working.
    Average Molly Moon's Homemade Ice Cream hourly pay ranges from approximately $21.00 per hour for Inventory Specialist to $27.66 per hour for Shop Manager. The average Molly Moon's Homemade Ice Cream salary ranges from approximately $57,488 per year for Store Manager to $64,573 per year for Shop Manager.

    Source

  • Options
    joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    Just to make sure we're still all on the plot: I've merrily gone down the labor and compensation rabbit hole specifically to disavow everybody of the notion that $18/hr is a particularly generous wage in Seattle.

    Tipping isn't a solution to shitty labor standards. It's barely a bandaid. But I'm still going to oppose any move that results in less overall compensation for low-wage workers.

    If Molly Moon Ice Cream (or any other business) eliminates tipping and immediately bumps up all wages by 15% or more, then I'm fine with that. If they increase wages by 20% across the board, then I'll celebrate. But eliminating tipping without raising base pay is going in the wrong direction.

    They did increase; % is not clear
    we’ve increased wages for ALL jobs in our shops: ice cream makers, scoopers, shift leaders, delivery drivers, shop managers & chefs. starting wage for our entry level positions is $18/hour.

    https://www.mollymoon.com/tipfree

    Thats minimum wage in Seattle.

    As of Jan 1 2023. This policy is from 2019 when the minimum wage was $12 to $15 depending on if Molly Moons qualified as a small employer

    Ok but its minimum wage now. In the present. When people are currently working.

    And the page hasn't been updated since 2019. They don't pay $18 now, it's $19. By law their minimum wage is $16.50.

    I think this is more "wages didn't keep up with inflation yet" and less the tipping policy.

    Looking at their hiring page, it looks like the only jobs they're posting for $19/hr. are summer jobs that give 20+ hours.

    Shift leaders make $25.50 to start and assistant managers make $29.50/hr.

    It's not like, "quit your career and go scoop ice cream" money but there is definitely a pathway to making a living at one of these places if that's what you want to do.

    I dunno, I think we all got caught up on the minimum wage thing but it doesn't look to me like every one of their employees is making that. They seem to be trying their best to pay a living wage without having to rely on the tip lottery, to me.

    A quick glance at their twitter also shows they support a lot of progressive ideals like paid family leave.

  • Options
    FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    Heffling wrote: »
    Sleep wrote: »
    syndalis wrote: »
    Sleep wrote: »
    Is it a 40 hour a week job? Yes it should approach the median income if not exceed it thus that the employee may live within walking or biking distance of the location in which they are required to do their work.

    Then it wouldn't be the median income any more.

    Cost of living fucking SUCKS, but working at a McDonalds in Midtown doesn't mean you should be able to afford to live there, especially since there is a good public transit infrastructure that lets you commute inexpensively, and depending on what you make, it might even be free.

    I don't think the answer is for the ice cream scooper and the burger flipper to be able to raise a family of 4 off of that work or cover all of life's bumps.

    The answer should be that those jobs are not where people in their 30s and 40s end up due to much better access to free education, including trades education as a means of getting into more lucrative work, and strengthening the social safety nets such that bumps in the road do not derail you. Minimum wage jobs for high school kids and folks in college as a means to supplement the home they are in, not as a primary income.

    Also, fuck tipping.

    working in the city center should absolutely mean being paid thus that you can live near the city center. No one should be forced into a commute to their jobs centralized location of more than a half hour to 45 minutes. Anything longer than that should be elective. Especially when you’re working an actually physically grueling job like anything at the service layer of our economy.

    The major flaw is thinking that service jobs aren’t what you do with your life and never could be. Might surprise you to find out. Service jobs aren’t just a phase of life job to everyone. Treating them like they should only be phase of life jobs hurts society in general and allows for the wholesale mistreatment of workers in those roles.

    Service industry jobs are a career just as much as programming or plumbing is.

    I disagree with the bolded. Employment is an economic decision in which you evaluate factors like wages and travel time to come up with an optimized solution. Anyone working in a city center but living outside of said city center has done the analysis and determined that the combination of increased pay and/or decreased in housing costs (for living outside the city) offsets the requirement to travel for that job. For a lot of people, the answer is that yes, it makes economic sense. Because city jobs do tend to pay better than country jobs. Especially in a place like Seattle, where the housing costs are 2.9 times the US average. There is almost nowhere in the US that is more expensive.

    If employers in city centers raised wages to a livable level, all it would do is cause even more commuting because you're just furthering the advantages of earning a city income with a country cost of living.

    Pretty bold to assume that the worker in this hypothetical scenario has "done the analysis" and is making a conscious choice to commute, rather than doing so because they were more or less forced into it by economic conditions.

    At least Seattle has a minimum wage you could, with luck and effort, scrape by on. Lots of cities don't.

    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.

    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
  • Options
    ElJeffeElJeffe Roaming the streets, waving his mod gun around.Moderator, ClubPA Mod Emeritus
    Feral wrote: »
    Just to make sure we're still all on the plot: I've merrily gone down the labor and compensation rabbit hole specifically to disavow everybody of the notion that $18/hr is a particularly generous wage in Seattle.

    Tipping isn't a solution to shitty labor standards. It's barely a bandaid. But I'm still going to oppose any move that results in less overall compensation for low-wage workers.

    If Molly Moon Ice Cream (or any other business) eliminates tipping and immediately bumps up all wages by 15% or more, then I'm fine with that. If they increase wages by 20% across the board, then I'll celebrate. But eliminating tipping without raising base pay is going in the wrong direction.

    In general, I agree. If this was a normal restaurant, I'd be pretty outraged by it. When we're talking about a job where minimum wage is kind of the norm and tipping is anomalous anyway, I'm not too up in arms about getting rid of the tips.

    Especially since we don't know the backstory. Was it one pretty white girl getting tipped while a bunch of minority dudes got jack squat? Not too upset by getting rid of tips then. Was business suffering because tipping was seen as normal and customers were deciding to go to the ice cream shop across the way that didn't have a de facto surcharge attached to their product? That's more understandable.

    This isn't something like a normal sit down restaurant where tipping is understood as a significant component of your income. I don't think Molly Moon should be heralded as heroes or anything, but I'm also not ready to villainize them.

    I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
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    Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    Just to make sure we're still all on the plot: I've merrily gone down the labor and compensation rabbit hole specifically to disavow everybody of the notion that $18/hr is a particularly generous wage in Seattle.

    Tipping isn't a solution to shitty labor standards. It's barely a bandaid. But I'm still going to oppose any move that results in less overall compensation for low-wage workers.

    If Molly Moon Ice Cream (or any other business) eliminates tipping and immediately bumps up all wages by 15% or more, then I'm fine with that. If they increase wages by 20% across the board, then I'll celebrate. But eliminating tipping without raising base pay is going in the wrong direction.

    They did increase; % is not clear
    we’ve increased wages for ALL jobs in our shops: ice cream makers, scoopers, shift leaders, delivery drivers, shop managers & chefs. starting wage for our entry level positions is $18/hour.

    https://www.mollymoon.com/tipfree

    Thats minimum wage in Seattle.

    As of Jan 1 2023. This policy is from 2019 when the minimum wage was $12 to $15 depending on if Molly Moons qualified as a small employer

    Ok but its minimum wage now.
    Heffling wrote: »
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    Just to make sure we're still all on the plot: I've merrily gone down the labor and compensation rabbit hole specifically to disavow everybody of the notion that $18/hr is a particularly generous wage in Seattle.

    Tipping isn't a solution to shitty labor standards. It's barely a bandaid. But I'm still going to oppose any move that results in less overall compensation for low-wage workers.

    If Molly Moon Ice Cream (or any other business) eliminates tipping and immediately bumps up all wages by 15% or more, then I'm fine with that. If they increase wages by 20% across the board, then I'll celebrate. But eliminating tipping without raising base pay is going in the wrong direction.

    They did increase; % is not clear
    we’ve increased wages for ALL jobs in our shops: ice cream makers, scoopers, shift leaders, delivery drivers, shop managers & chefs. starting wage for our entry level positions is $18/hour.

    https://www.mollymoon.com/tipfree

    Thats minimum wage in Seattle.

    As of Jan 1 2023. This policy is from 2019 when the minimum wage was $12 to $15 depending on if Molly Moons qualified as a small employer

    Ok but its minimum wage now. In the present. When people are currently working.
    Average Molly Moon's Homemade Ice Cream hourly pay ranges from approximately $21.00 per hour for Inventory Specialist to $27.66 per hour for Shop Manager. The average Molly Moon's Homemade Ice Cream salary ranges from approximately $57,488 per year for Store Manager to $64,573 per year for Shop Manager.

    Source

    That includes a lot of nontip work. What they pay inventory specialists is irrelevant here.

    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
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    Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular

    A quick glance at their twitter also shows they support a lot of progressive ideals like paid family leave.

    Washington state doesnt give them much of a choice on this.

    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
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    ButtersButters A glass of some milks Registered User regular
    cncaudata wrote: »
    If some folks are arguing that the business paying their workers $18/hour, giving them benefits, and not allowing tips is the bad guy because some workers might have made more money from tips... I don't know what to do.

    Like, I am way better off if men keep getting paid more than women for the same work. That doesn't mean we should keep doing it.

    Put your actual prices on the menu, pay your workers the actual money they're going to earn, and everyone can apply for the job or order the food with full knowledge of the transactions being made. If $18 isn't enough for that work, then workers will go get other jobs, etc.

    I'd also like to address a thread of this conversation that popped up again, wherein people are told that they are dicks for not tipping, because tipping is a good thing to do to provide income for workers that are underpaid by their employers. Um, no. You don't get to tell people they're dicks for making a different choice in how to spend their charity dollars. Money is fungible, and all that tip money you feel so great about handing out isn't necessarily doing what you want, and it's certainly not sure to be doing more good than any other charitable use of that money. The arguments been made over and over, but it's still valid. If you aren't tipping every minimum wage worker you interact with, and all the ones close enough to throw money at that you don't interact with, and donating most of your disposable income to charity, etc., then you don't get to tell someone that their choice of how to spend their money is wrong.

    Folks that say this are actually falling into the social shame game that they claim doesn't exist. Why do you tip your server and not all the servers, busboys, cooks, you see? It's because you want your fancy good (opposite of shame) feeling for supporting the income of somebody that serves you. Heck, you could support the workers more by just going in, handing them a tip, and walking out. No need to take up their time with actually ordering the food.

    Ugh, telling people they shouldn't eat out if they can't afford to tip is no different than telling folks on WIC that they should only be able to buy dry rice and beans. Yes, it's a societal norm that the tip is included, but it's also a commonly held belief that poor people shouldn't have anything nice. Both ideas suck.

    Uh...yes it is. When a person buys a tiny bit nicer food with their SNAP benefits or whatever they aren't also shorting a worker of their living wage. If you choose to dine in an establishment where you know the waitstaff's living is dependent on tips (which is generally not the case for cooks) and you choose not to tip you are not fighting the system you are just assuring the person that served you isn't going to receive fair compensation for their labor.

    Systemic change is not achieved by individual choice. We have an ocean filled with plastic garbage that is proof of that.

    PSN: idontworkhere582 | CFN: idontworkhere | Steam: lordbutters | Amazon Wishlist
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    ElJeffeElJeffe Roaming the streets, waving his mod gun around.Moderator, ClubPA Mod Emeritus
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    Just to make sure we're still all on the plot: I've merrily gone down the labor and compensation rabbit hole specifically to disavow everybody of the notion that $18/hr is a particularly generous wage in Seattle.

    Tipping isn't a solution to shitty labor standards. It's barely a bandaid. But I'm still going to oppose any move that results in less overall compensation for low-wage workers.

    If Molly Moon Ice Cream (or any other business) eliminates tipping and immediately bumps up all wages by 15% or more, then I'm fine with that. If they increase wages by 20% across the board, then I'll celebrate. But eliminating tipping without raising base pay is going in the wrong direction.

    They did increase; % is not clear
    we’ve increased wages for ALL jobs in our shops: ice cream makers, scoopers, shift leaders, delivery drivers, shop managers & chefs. starting wage for our entry level positions is $18/hour.

    https://www.mollymoon.com/tipfree

    Thats minimum wage in Seattle.

    As of Jan 1 2023. This policy is from 2019 when the minimum wage was $12 to $15 depending on if Molly Moons qualified as a small employer

    Ok but its minimum wage now.
    Heffling wrote: »
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    Just to make sure we're still all on the plot: I've merrily gone down the labor and compensation rabbit hole specifically to disavow everybody of the notion that $18/hr is a particularly generous wage in Seattle.

    Tipping isn't a solution to shitty labor standards. It's barely a bandaid. But I'm still going to oppose any move that results in less overall compensation for low-wage workers.

    If Molly Moon Ice Cream (or any other business) eliminates tipping and immediately bumps up all wages by 15% or more, then I'm fine with that. If they increase wages by 20% across the board, then I'll celebrate. But eliminating tipping without raising base pay is going in the wrong direction.

    They did increase; % is not clear
    we’ve increased wages for ALL jobs in our shops: ice cream makers, scoopers, shift leaders, delivery drivers, shop managers & chefs. starting wage for our entry level positions is $18/hour.

    https://www.mollymoon.com/tipfree

    Thats minimum wage in Seattle.

    As of Jan 1 2023. This policy is from 2019 when the minimum wage was $12 to $15 depending on if Molly Moons qualified as a small employer

    Ok but its minimum wage now. In the present. When people are currently working.
    Average Molly Moon's Homemade Ice Cream hourly pay ranges from approximately $21.00 per hour for Inventory Specialist to $27.66 per hour for Shop Manager. The average Molly Moon's Homemade Ice Cream salary ranges from approximately $57,488 per year for Store Manager to $64,573 per year for Shop Manager.

    Source

    That includes a lot of nontip work. What they pay inventory specialists is irrelevant here.

    So just to make sure I follow, fuck Molly Moons for bumping up their pay to $3-$6 over the minimum wage four years ago because eventually the minimum wage increased?

    I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
  • Options
    kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    Butters wrote: »
    cncaudata wrote: »
    If some folks are arguing that the business paying their workers $18/hour, giving them benefits, and not allowing tips is the bad guy because some workers might have made more money from tips... I don't know what to do.

    Like, I am way better off if men keep getting paid more than women for the same work. That doesn't mean we should keep doing it.

    Put your actual prices on the menu, pay your workers the actual money they're going to earn, and everyone can apply for the job or order the food with full knowledge of the transactions being made. If $18 isn't enough for that work, then workers will go get other jobs, etc.

    I'd also like to address a thread of this conversation that popped up again, wherein people are told that they are dicks for not tipping, because tipping is a good thing to do to provide income for workers that are underpaid by their employers. Um, no. You don't get to tell people they're dicks for making a different choice in how to spend their charity dollars. Money is fungible, and all that tip money you feel so great about handing out isn't necessarily doing what you want, and it's certainly not sure to be doing more good than any other charitable use of that money. The arguments been made over and over, but it's still valid. If you aren't tipping every minimum wage worker you interact with, and all the ones close enough to throw money at that you don't interact with, and donating most of your disposable income to charity, etc., then you don't get to tell someone that their choice of how to spend their money is wrong.

    Folks that say this are actually falling into the social shame game that they claim doesn't exist. Why do you tip your server and not all the servers, busboys, cooks, you see? It's because you want your fancy good (opposite of shame) feeling for supporting the income of somebody that serves you. Heck, you could support the workers more by just going in, handing them a tip, and walking out. No need to take up their time with actually ordering the food.

    Ugh, telling people they shouldn't eat out if they can't afford to tip is no different than telling folks on WIC that they should only be able to buy dry rice and beans. Yes, it's a societal norm that the tip is included, but it's also a commonly held belief that poor people shouldn't have anything nice. Both ideas suck.

    Uh...yes it is. When a person buys a tiny bit nicer food with their SNAP benefits or whatever they aren't also shorting a worker of their living wage. If you choose to dine in an establishment where you know the waitstaff's living is dependent on tips (which is generally not the case for cooks) and you choose not to tip you are not fighting the system you are just assuring the person that served you isn't going to receive fair compensation for their labor.

    Systemic change is not achieved by individual choice. We have an ocean filled with plastic garbage that is proof of that.

    I mean the workers at the grocery you go to are probably minimum-wage. Maybe you should be tipping them, and don't go there if you can't!

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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular

    A quick glance at their twitter also shows they support a lot of progressive ideals like paid family leave.

    Washington state doesnt give them much of a choice on this.

    Yes, I’m sure given the opportunity Molly Moon’s would be full MAGA.

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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    Just to make sure we're still all on the plot: I've merrily gone down the labor and compensation rabbit hole specifically to disavow everybody of the notion that $18/hr is a particularly generous wage in Seattle.

    Tipping isn't a solution to shitty labor standards. It's barely a bandaid. But I'm still going to oppose any move that results in less overall compensation for low-wage workers.

    If Molly Moon Ice Cream (or any other business) eliminates tipping and immediately bumps up all wages by 15% or more, then I'm fine with that. If they increase wages by 20% across the board, then I'll celebrate. But eliminating tipping without raising base pay is going in the wrong direction.

    They did increase; % is not clear
    we’ve increased wages for ALL jobs in our shops: ice cream makers, scoopers, shift leaders, delivery drivers, shop managers & chefs. starting wage for our entry level positions is $18/hour.

    https://www.mollymoon.com/tipfree

    Thats minimum wage in Seattle.

    As of Jan 1 2023. This policy is from 2019 when the minimum wage was $12 to $15 depending on if Molly Moons qualified as a small employer

    Ok but its minimum wage now.
    Heffling wrote: »
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    Just to make sure we're still all on the plot: I've merrily gone down the labor and compensation rabbit hole specifically to disavow everybody of the notion that $18/hr is a particularly generous wage in Seattle.

    Tipping isn't a solution to shitty labor standards. It's barely a bandaid. But I'm still going to oppose any move that results in less overall compensation for low-wage workers.

    If Molly Moon Ice Cream (or any other business) eliminates tipping and immediately bumps up all wages by 15% or more, then I'm fine with that. If they increase wages by 20% across the board, then I'll celebrate. But eliminating tipping without raising base pay is going in the wrong direction.

    They did increase; % is not clear
    we’ve increased wages for ALL jobs in our shops: ice cream makers, scoopers, shift leaders, delivery drivers, shop managers & chefs. starting wage for our entry level positions is $18/hour.

    https://www.mollymoon.com/tipfree

    Thats minimum wage in Seattle.

    As of Jan 1 2023. This policy is from 2019 when the minimum wage was $12 to $15 depending on if Molly Moons qualified as a small employer

    Ok but its minimum wage now. In the present. When people are currently working.
    Average Molly Moon's Homemade Ice Cream hourly pay ranges from approximately $21.00 per hour for Inventory Specialist to $27.66 per hour for Shop Manager. The average Molly Moon's Homemade Ice Cream salary ranges from approximately $57,488 per year for Store Manager to $64,573 per year for Shop Manager.

    Source

    That includes a lot of nontip work. What they pay inventory specialists is irrelevant here.

    So just to make sure I follow, fuck Molly Moons for bumping up their pay to $3-$6 over the minimum wage four years ago because eventually the minimum wage increased?

    It’s *almost* as if some people are just entirely unreasonable…

This discussion has been closed.