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Tipping/Gratuity Culture

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    HefflingHeffling No Pic EverRegistered User regular
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    Just to make sure we're still all on the plot: I've merrily gone down the labor and compensation rabbit hole specifically to disavow everybody of the notion that $18/hr is a particularly generous wage in Seattle.

    Tipping isn't a solution to shitty labor standards. It's barely a bandaid. But I'm still going to oppose any move that results in less overall compensation for low-wage workers.

    If Molly Moon Ice Cream (or any other business) eliminates tipping and immediately bumps up all wages by 15% or more, then I'm fine with that. If they increase wages by 20% across the board, then I'll celebrate. But eliminating tipping without raising base pay is going in the wrong direction.

    They did increase; % is not clear
    we’ve increased wages for ALL jobs in our shops: ice cream makers, scoopers, shift leaders, delivery drivers, shop managers & chefs. starting wage for our entry level positions is $18/hour.

    https://www.mollymoon.com/tipfree

    Thats minimum wage in Seattle.

    As of Jan 1 2023. This policy is from 2019 when the minimum wage was $12 to $15 depending on if Molly Moons qualified as a small employer

    Ok but its minimum wage now.
    Heffling wrote: »
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    Just to make sure we're still all on the plot: I've merrily gone down the labor and compensation rabbit hole specifically to disavow everybody of the notion that $18/hr is a particularly generous wage in Seattle.

    Tipping isn't a solution to shitty labor standards. It's barely a bandaid. But I'm still going to oppose any move that results in less overall compensation for low-wage workers.

    If Molly Moon Ice Cream (or any other business) eliminates tipping and immediately bumps up all wages by 15% or more, then I'm fine with that. If they increase wages by 20% across the board, then I'll celebrate. But eliminating tipping without raising base pay is going in the wrong direction.

    They did increase; % is not clear
    we’ve increased wages for ALL jobs in our shops: ice cream makers, scoopers, shift leaders, delivery drivers, shop managers & chefs. starting wage for our entry level positions is $18/hour.

    https://www.mollymoon.com/tipfree

    Thats minimum wage in Seattle.

    As of Jan 1 2023. This policy is from 2019 when the minimum wage was $12 to $15 depending on if Molly Moons qualified as a small employer

    Ok but its minimum wage now. In the present. When people are currently working.
    Average Molly Moon's Homemade Ice Cream hourly pay ranges from approximately $21.00 per hour for Inventory Specialist to $27.66 per hour for Shop Manager. The average Molly Moon's Homemade Ice Cream salary ranges from approximately $57,488 per year for Store Manager to $64,573 per year for Shop Manager.

    Source

    That includes a lot of nontip work. What they pay inventory specialists is irrelevant here.

    We're going down a real rocky road here. According to their website, they are offering $19 an hour for part time summer workers (e.g. college students), and $27.50 an hour for a full time assistant manager.

    Source

    This thing you're doing, where you compare 2019 wages to a recently enacted 2023 minimum wage for people who only work 16 hours a week (when the advertisement says minimum 20, and the job listing says 25+/week)? Nobody is buying that.

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    Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    edited April 2023
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    Just to make sure we're still all on the plot: I've merrily gone down the labor and compensation rabbit hole specifically to disavow everybody of the notion that $18/hr is a particularly generous wage in Seattle.

    Tipping isn't a solution to shitty labor standards. It's barely a bandaid. But I'm still going to oppose any move that results in less overall compensation for low-wage workers.

    If Molly Moon Ice Cream (or any other business) eliminates tipping and immediately bumps up all wages by 15% or more, then I'm fine with that. If they increase wages by 20% across the board, then I'll celebrate. But eliminating tipping without raising base pay is going in the wrong direction.

    They did increase; % is not clear
    we’ve increased wages for ALL jobs in our shops: ice cream makers, scoopers, shift leaders, delivery drivers, shop managers & chefs. starting wage for our entry level positions is $18/hour.

    https://www.mollymoon.com/tipfree

    Thats minimum wage in Seattle.

    As of Jan 1 2023. This policy is from 2019 when the minimum wage was $12 to $15 depending on if Molly Moons qualified as a small employer

    Ok but its minimum wage now.
    Heffling wrote: »
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    Just to make sure we're still all on the plot: I've merrily gone down the labor and compensation rabbit hole specifically to disavow everybody of the notion that $18/hr is a particularly generous wage in Seattle.

    Tipping isn't a solution to shitty labor standards. It's barely a bandaid. But I'm still going to oppose any move that results in less overall compensation for low-wage workers.

    If Molly Moon Ice Cream (or any other business) eliminates tipping and immediately bumps up all wages by 15% or more, then I'm fine with that. If they increase wages by 20% across the board, then I'll celebrate. But eliminating tipping without raising base pay is going in the wrong direction.

    They did increase; % is not clear
    we’ve increased wages for ALL jobs in our shops: ice cream makers, scoopers, shift leaders, delivery drivers, shop managers & chefs. starting wage for our entry level positions is $18/hour.

    https://www.mollymoon.com/tipfree

    Thats minimum wage in Seattle.

    As of Jan 1 2023. This policy is from 2019 when the minimum wage was $12 to $15 depending on if Molly Moons qualified as a small employer

    Ok but its minimum wage now. In the present. When people are currently working.
    Average Molly Moon's Homemade Ice Cream hourly pay ranges from approximately $21.00 per hour for Inventory Specialist to $27.66 per hour for Shop Manager. The average Molly Moon's Homemade Ice Cream salary ranges from approximately $57,488 per year for Store Manager to $64,573 per year for Shop Manager.

    Source

    That includes a lot of nontip work. What they pay inventory specialists is irrelevant here.

    So just to make sure I follow, fuck Molly Moons for bumping up their pay to $3-$6 over the minimum wage four years ago because eventually the minimum wage increased?

    Just to make sure you follow, their lowest paid employees took an effective haircut and now make a few cents above minimum wage while their company gets to throw around inclusive liberal rhetoric for a wealthy Seattle customer base that cares more about the appearance of a more just society than the reality of one. Seems fucked to me but I dont buy into conservative anti minimum wage arguments.

    Seattle's minimum tip wage only kicks in if your tips dont cover the difference between the minimum tipped wage and the regular tipped wage. Theyre not making 3 dollars more than the minimum, theyre making about 40 cents more.

    Styrofoam Sammich on
    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
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    SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Fuck Warren Ellis Registered User regular
    kime wrote: »
    Butters wrote: »
    cncaudata wrote: »
    If some folks are arguing that the business paying their workers $18/hour, giving them benefits, and not allowing tips is the bad guy because some workers might have made more money from tips... I don't know what to do.

    Like, I am way better off if men keep getting paid more than women for the same work. That doesn't mean we should keep doing it.

    Put your actual prices on the menu, pay your workers the actual money they're going to earn, and everyone can apply for the job or order the food with full knowledge of the transactions being made. If $18 isn't enough for that work, then workers will go get other jobs, etc.

    I'd also like to address a thread of this conversation that popped up again, wherein people are told that they are dicks for not tipping, because tipping is a good thing to do to provide income for workers that are underpaid by their employers. Um, no. You don't get to tell people they're dicks for making a different choice in how to spend their charity dollars. Money is fungible, and all that tip money you feel so great about handing out isn't necessarily doing what you want, and it's certainly not sure to be doing more good than any other charitable use of that money. The arguments been made over and over, but it's still valid. If you aren't tipping every minimum wage worker you interact with, and all the ones close enough to throw money at that you don't interact with, and donating most of your disposable income to charity, etc., then you don't get to tell someone that their choice of how to spend their money is wrong.

    Folks that say this are actually falling into the social shame game that they claim doesn't exist. Why do you tip your server and not all the servers, busboys, cooks, you see? It's because you want your fancy good (opposite of shame) feeling for supporting the income of somebody that serves you. Heck, you could support the workers more by just going in, handing them a tip, and walking out. No need to take up their time with actually ordering the food.

    Ugh, telling people they shouldn't eat out if they can't afford to tip is no different than telling folks on WIC that they should only be able to buy dry rice and beans. Yes, it's a societal norm that the tip is included, but it's also a commonly held belief that poor people shouldn't have anything nice. Both ideas suck.

    Uh...yes it is. When a person buys a tiny bit nicer food with their SNAP benefits or whatever they aren't also shorting a worker of their living wage. If you choose to dine in an establishment where you know the waitstaff's living is dependent on tips (which is generally not the case for cooks) and you choose not to tip you are not fighting the system you are just assuring the person that served you isn't going to receive fair compensation for their labor.

    Systemic change is not achieved by individual choice. We have an ocean filled with plastic garbage that is proof of that.

    I mean the workers at the grocery you go to are probably minimum-wage. Maybe you should be tipping them, and don't go there if you can't!

    People at the grocery store aren't working in service of me like waitstaff. Also, generally grocery stores pay quite well and offer benefits.

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    joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    Why have we homed in on this one business that is paying their workers better than, like, 95% of other service industry jobs and doing basically what the thread consensus was on tipping? IDGI

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    Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    kime wrote: »
    Butters wrote: »
    cncaudata wrote: »
    If some folks are arguing that the business paying their workers $18/hour, giving them benefits, and not allowing tips is the bad guy because some workers might have made more money from tips... I don't know what to do.

    Like, I am way better off if men keep getting paid more than women for the same work. That doesn't mean we should keep doing it.

    Put your actual prices on the menu, pay your workers the actual money they're going to earn, and everyone can apply for the job or order the food with full knowledge of the transactions being made. If $18 isn't enough for that work, then workers will go get other jobs, etc.

    I'd also like to address a thread of this conversation that popped up again, wherein people are told that they are dicks for not tipping, because tipping is a good thing to do to provide income for workers that are underpaid by their employers. Um, no. You don't get to tell people they're dicks for making a different choice in how to spend their charity dollars. Money is fungible, and all that tip money you feel so great about handing out isn't necessarily doing what you want, and it's certainly not sure to be doing more good than any other charitable use of that money. The arguments been made over and over, but it's still valid. If you aren't tipping every minimum wage worker you interact with, and all the ones close enough to throw money at that you don't interact with, and donating most of your disposable income to charity, etc., then you don't get to tell someone that their choice of how to spend their money is wrong.

    Folks that say this are actually falling into the social shame game that they claim doesn't exist. Why do you tip your server and not all the servers, busboys, cooks, you see? It's because you want your fancy good (opposite of shame) feeling for supporting the income of somebody that serves you. Heck, you could support the workers more by just going in, handing them a tip, and walking out. No need to take up their time with actually ordering the food.

    Ugh, telling people they shouldn't eat out if they can't afford to tip is no different than telling folks on WIC that they should only be able to buy dry rice and beans. Yes, it's a societal norm that the tip is included, but it's also a commonly held belief that poor people shouldn't have anything nice. Both ideas suck.

    Uh...yes it is. When a person buys a tiny bit nicer food with their SNAP benefits or whatever they aren't also shorting a worker of their living wage. If you choose to dine in an establishment where you know the waitstaff's living is dependent on tips (which is generally not the case for cooks) and you choose not to tip you are not fighting the system you are just assuring the person that served you isn't going to receive fair compensation for their labor.

    Systemic change is not achieved by individual choice. We have an ocean filled with plastic garbage that is proof of that.

    I mean the workers at the grocery you go to are probably minimum-wage. Maybe you should be tipping them, and don't go there if you can't!

    People at the grocery store aren't working in service of me like waitstaff. Also, generally grocery stores pay quite well and offer benefits.

    They're also often unionized here.

    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
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    kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    kime wrote: »
    Butters wrote: »
    cncaudata wrote: »
    If some folks are arguing that the business paying their workers $18/hour, giving them benefits, and not allowing tips is the bad guy because some workers might have made more money from tips... I don't know what to do.

    Like, I am way better off if men keep getting paid more than women for the same work. That doesn't mean we should keep doing it.

    Put your actual prices on the menu, pay your workers the actual money they're going to earn, and everyone can apply for the job or order the food with full knowledge of the transactions being made. If $18 isn't enough for that work, then workers will go get other jobs, etc.

    I'd also like to address a thread of this conversation that popped up again, wherein people are told that they are dicks for not tipping, because tipping is a good thing to do to provide income for workers that are underpaid by their employers. Um, no. You don't get to tell people they're dicks for making a different choice in how to spend their charity dollars. Money is fungible, and all that tip money you feel so great about handing out isn't necessarily doing what you want, and it's certainly not sure to be doing more good than any other charitable use of that money. The arguments been made over and over, but it's still valid. If you aren't tipping every minimum wage worker you interact with, and all the ones close enough to throw money at that you don't interact with, and donating most of your disposable income to charity, etc., then you don't get to tell someone that their choice of how to spend their money is wrong.

    Folks that say this are actually falling into the social shame game that they claim doesn't exist. Why do you tip your server and not all the servers, busboys, cooks, you see? It's because you want your fancy good (opposite of shame) feeling for supporting the income of somebody that serves you. Heck, you could support the workers more by just going in, handing them a tip, and walking out. No need to take up their time with actually ordering the food.

    Ugh, telling people they shouldn't eat out if they can't afford to tip is no different than telling folks on WIC that they should only be able to buy dry rice and beans. Yes, it's a societal norm that the tip is included, but it's also a commonly held belief that poor people shouldn't have anything nice. Both ideas suck.

    Uh...yes it is. When a person buys a tiny bit nicer food with their SNAP benefits or whatever they aren't also shorting a worker of their living wage. If you choose to dine in an establishment where you know the waitstaff's living is dependent on tips (which is generally not the case for cooks) and you choose not to tip you are not fighting the system you are just assuring the person that served you isn't going to receive fair compensation for their labor.

    Systemic change is not achieved by individual choice. We have an ocean filled with plastic garbage that is proof of that.

    I mean the workers at the grocery you go to are probably minimum-wage. Maybe you should be tipping them, and don't go there if you can't!

    People at the grocery store aren't working in service of me like waitstaff. Also, generally grocery stores pay quite well and offer benefits.

    OK, so if you can't afford to tip your grocery bagger, then DON"T GO THERE!

    Battle.net ID: kime#1822
    3DS Friend Code: 3110-5393-4113
    Steam profile
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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    Why have we homed in on this one business that is paying their workers better than, like, 95% of other service industry jobs and doing basically what the thread consensus was on tipping? IDGI

    Because all of us know that anything short of perfect is basically fascism.

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    Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    Why have we homed in on this one business that is paying their workers better than, like, 95% of other service industry jobs and doing basically what the thread consensus was on tipping? IDGI

    Because someone posted their makerting poster sans any of the wage information that made it less than a compelling argument for not tipping.

    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
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    R-demR-dem Registered User regular
    No, I posted their marketing poster and you immediately started shitting all over them with out of date information that's now been quite thoroughly refuted. I'm not sure what Molly Moon's ever did to you but I do respect your stubbornness.

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    kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    Well regardless, we've all decided that it was a misunderstanding and the ice cream shop is fine and we can move on to judging each other again, as intended in the glorious tipping thread, yeah?

    Or I mean you can always not judge each other, I guess, but at the very least we agree that the ice cream place is fine?

    Battle.net ID: kime#1822
    3DS Friend Code: 3110-5393-4113
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    Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    R-dem wrote: »
    No, I posted their marketing poster and you immediately started shitting all over them with out of date information that's now been quite thoroughly refuted. I'm not sure what Molly Moon's ever did to you but I do respect your stubbornness.

    No, my numbers are fine. Their entry level front end employees, the ones who would be tipped, make 31 cents above minimum wage. Thats about 2.50 over an 8 hour shift. The workers would be significantly better off if they were allowed tips and paid minimum wage.

    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
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    crzyangocrzyango Registered User regular
    edited April 2023
    kime wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    Butters wrote: »
    cncaudata wrote: »
    If some folks are arguing that the business paying their workers $18/hour, giving them benefits, and not allowing tips is the bad guy because some workers might have made more money from tips... I don't know what to do.

    Like, I am way better off if men keep getting paid more than women for the same work. That doesn't mean we should keep doing it.

    Put your actual prices on the menu, pay your workers the actual money they're going to earn, and everyone can apply for the job or order the food with full knowledge of the transactions being made. If $18 isn't enough for that work, then workers will go get other jobs, etc.

    I'd also like to address a thread of this conversation that popped up again, wherein people are told that they are dicks for not tipping, because tipping is a good thing to do to provide income for workers that are underpaid by their employers. Um, no. You don't get to tell people they're dicks for making a different choice in how to spend their charity dollars. Money is fungible, and all that tip money you feel so great about handing out isn't necessarily doing what you want, and it's certainly not sure to be doing more good than any other charitable use of that money. The arguments been made over and over, but it's still valid. If you aren't tipping every minimum wage worker you interact with, and all the ones close enough to throw money at that you don't interact with, and donating most of your disposable income to charity, etc., then you don't get to tell someone that their choice of how to spend their money is wrong.

    Folks that say this are actually falling into the social shame game that they claim doesn't exist. Why do you tip your server and not all the servers, busboys, cooks, you see? It's because you want your fancy good (opposite of shame) feeling for supporting the income of somebody that serves you. Heck, you could support the workers more by just going in, handing them a tip, and walking out. No need to take up their time with actually ordering the food.

    Ugh, telling people they shouldn't eat out if they can't afford to tip is no different than telling folks on WIC that they should only be able to buy dry rice and beans. Yes, it's a societal norm that the tip is included, but it's also a commonly held belief that poor people shouldn't have anything nice. Both ideas suck.

    Uh...yes it is. When a person buys a tiny bit nicer food with their SNAP benefits or whatever they aren't also shorting a worker of their living wage. If you choose to dine in an establishment where you know the waitstaff's living is dependent on tips (which is generally not the case for cooks) and you choose not to tip you are not fighting the system you are just assuring the person that served you isn't going to receive fair compensation for their labor.

    Systemic change is not achieved by individual choice. We have an ocean filled with plastic garbage that is proof of that.

    I mean the workers at the grocery you go to are probably minimum-wage. Maybe you should be tipping them, and don't go there if you can't!

    People at the grocery store aren't working in service of me like waitstaff. Also, generally grocery stores pay quite well and offer benefits.

    OK, so if you can't afford to tip your grocery bagger, then DON"T GO THERE!

    Or just carry your own groceries.

    crzyango on
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    Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular
    edited April 2023
    R-dem wrote: »
    No, I posted their marketing poster and you immediately started shitting all over them with out of date information that's now been quite thoroughly refuted. I'm not sure what Molly Moon's ever did to you but I do respect your stubbornness.

    No, my numbers are fine. Their entry level front end employees, the ones who would be tipped, make 31 cents above minimum wage. Thats about 2.50 over an 8 hour shift. The workers would be significantly better off if they were allowed tips and paid minimum wage.

    The minimum wage molly moons is required to pay is $16.50. They get $2.50 an hour over minimum, minimum (remember that's starting pay?)

    This would also leave the backend staff worse off, as remember they got a pay bump with the tipping removal too.

    Phoenix-D on
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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    R-dem wrote: »
    No, I posted their marketing poster and you immediately started shitting all over them with out of date information that's now been quite thoroughly refuted. I'm not sure what Molly Moon's ever did to you but I do respect your stubbornness.

    No, my numbers are fine. Their entry level front end employees, the ones who would be tipped, make 31 cents above minimum wage. Thats about 2.50 over an 8 hour shift. The workers would be significantly better off if they were allowed tips and paid minimum wage.

    Molly Moon’s likely qualifies for the small business exemption, I suspect they don’t have over 500 employees. So the minimum cash wage they’d have to pay tipped employees…which is what you are discussing…would be $16.50 in Seattle. We agree this is the case?

  • Options
    DarkewolfeDarkewolfe Registered User regular
    Feral wrote: »
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Which is a good thing, right? Government making sure employees get decent benefits even at minimum wage jobs?

    It is a good thing, but the point is that if Molly Moon's is offering the legal minimum compensation and benefits after eliminating tipping, then eliminating tipping didn't benefit the employees.

    Eliminating tipping isn't going to benefit employees until everyone does it and you're able to consider where to work based on known compensation across the board.

    What is this I don't even.
  • Options
    R-demR-dem Registered User regular
    19/hr part time vs 16.50/hr plus tips and I have to hope that people drop 3 dollars per employee on duty during my shift in the tip jar per hour.

    No thanks gimme the 19.

  • Options
    ButtersButters A glass of some milks Registered User regular
    kime wrote: »
    Butters wrote: »
    cncaudata wrote: »
    If some folks are arguing that the business paying their workers $18/hour, giving them benefits, and not allowing tips is the bad guy because some workers might have made more money from tips... I don't know what to do.

    Like, I am way better off if men keep getting paid more than women for the same work. That doesn't mean we should keep doing it.

    Put your actual prices on the menu, pay your workers the actual money they're going to earn, and everyone can apply for the job or order the food with full knowledge of the transactions being made. If $18 isn't enough for that work, then workers will go get other jobs, etc.

    I'd also like to address a thread of this conversation that popped up again, wherein people are told that they are dicks for not tipping, because tipping is a good thing to do to provide income for workers that are underpaid by their employers. Um, no. You don't get to tell people they're dicks for making a different choice in how to spend their charity dollars. Money is fungible, and all that tip money you feel so great about handing out isn't necessarily doing what you want, and it's certainly not sure to be doing more good than any other charitable use of that money. The arguments been made over and over, but it's still valid. If you aren't tipping every minimum wage worker you interact with, and all the ones close enough to throw money at that you don't interact with, and donating most of your disposable income to charity, etc., then you don't get to tell someone that their choice of how to spend their money is wrong.

    Folks that say this are actually falling into the social shame game that they claim doesn't exist. Why do you tip your server and not all the servers, busboys, cooks, you see? It's because you want your fancy good (opposite of shame) feeling for supporting the income of somebody that serves you. Heck, you could support the workers more by just going in, handing them a tip, and walking out. No need to take up their time with actually ordering the food.

    Ugh, telling people they shouldn't eat out if they can't afford to tip is no different than telling folks on WIC that they should only be able to buy dry rice and beans. Yes, it's a societal norm that the tip is included, but it's also a commonly held belief that poor people shouldn't have anything nice. Both ideas suck.

    Uh...yes it is. When a person buys a tiny bit nicer food with their SNAP benefits or whatever they aren't also shorting a worker of their living wage. If you choose to dine in an establishment where you know the waitstaff's living is dependent on tips (which is generally not the case for cooks) and you choose not to tip you are not fighting the system you are just assuring the person that served you isn't going to receive fair compensation for their labor.

    Systemic change is not achieved by individual choice. We have an ocean filled with plastic garbage that is proof of that.

    I mean the workers at the grocery you go to are probably minimum-wage. Maybe you should be tipping them, and don't go there if you can't!

    For the umpteenth time, tipped workers outside of major cities on the coasts are NOT GUARANTEED FEDERAL OR STATE MINIMUM WAGE. We live in a country where tipped employees get as little as $2.13 an hour on their checks and wage theft is rampant.

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    zepherinzepherin Russian warship, go fuck yourself Registered User regular
    crzyango wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    Butters wrote: »
    cncaudata wrote: »
    If some folks are arguing that the business paying their workers $18/hour, giving them benefits, and not allowing tips is the bad guy because some workers might have made more money from tips... I don't know what to do.

    Like, I am way better off if men keep getting paid more than women for the same work. That doesn't mean we should keep doing it.

    Put your actual prices on the menu, pay your workers the actual money they're going to earn, and everyone can apply for the job or order the food with full knowledge of the transactions being made. If $18 isn't enough for that work, then workers will go get other jobs, etc.

    I'd also like to address a thread of this conversation that popped up again, wherein people are told that they are dicks for not tipping, because tipping is a good thing to do to provide income for workers that are underpaid by their employers. Um, no. You don't get to tell people they're dicks for making a different choice in how to spend their charity dollars. Money is fungible, and all that tip money you feel so great about handing out isn't necessarily doing what you want, and it's certainly not sure to be doing more good than any other charitable use of that money. The arguments been made over and over, but it's still valid. If you aren't tipping every minimum wage worker you interact with, and all the ones close enough to throw money at that you don't interact with, and donating most of your disposable income to charity, etc., then you don't get to tell someone that their choice of how to spend their money is wrong.

    Folks that say this are actually falling into the social shame game that they claim doesn't exist. Why do you tip your server and not all the servers, busboys, cooks, you see? It's because you want your fancy good (opposite of shame) feeling for supporting the income of somebody that serves you. Heck, you could support the workers more by just going in, handing them a tip, and walking out. No need to take up their time with actually ordering the food.

    Ugh, telling people they shouldn't eat out if they can't afford to tip is no different than telling folks on WIC that they should only be able to buy dry rice and beans. Yes, it's a societal norm that the tip is included, but it's also a commonly held belief that poor people shouldn't have anything nice. Both ideas suck.

    Uh...yes it is. When a person buys a tiny bit nicer food with their SNAP benefits or whatever they aren't also shorting a worker of their living wage. If you choose to dine in an establishment where you know the waitstaff's living is dependent on tips (which is generally not the case for cooks) and you choose not to tip you are not fighting the system you are just assuring the person that served you isn't going to receive fair compensation for their labor.

    Systemic change is not achieved by individual choice. We have an ocean filled with plastic garbage that is proof of that.

    I mean the workers at the grocery you go to are probably minimum-wage. Maybe you should be tipping them, and don't go there if you can't!

    People at the grocery store aren't working in service of me like waitstaff. Also, generally grocery stores pay quite well and offer benefits.

    OK, so if you can't afford to tip your grocery bagger, then DON"T GO THERE!

    Or just carry your own groceries.
    I pull up and they load groceries into my trunk and then I leave. Like that’s how I shop for most things now. Am I supposed to tip for that?

  • Options
    ElJeffeElJeffe Roaming the streets, waving his mod gun around.Moderator, ClubPA Mod Emeritus
    crzyango wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    Butters wrote: »
    cncaudata wrote: »
    If some folks are arguing that the business paying their workers $18/hour, giving them benefits, and not allowing tips is the bad guy because some workers might have made more money from tips... I don't know what to do.

    Like, I am way better off if men keep getting paid more than women for the same work. That doesn't mean we should keep doing it.

    Put your actual prices on the menu, pay your workers the actual money they're going to earn, and everyone can apply for the job or order the food with full knowledge of the transactions being made. If $18 isn't enough for that work, then workers will go get other jobs, etc.

    I'd also like to address a thread of this conversation that popped up again, wherein people are told that they are dicks for not tipping, because tipping is a good thing to do to provide income for workers that are underpaid by their employers. Um, no. You don't get to tell people they're dicks for making a different choice in how to spend their charity dollars. Money is fungible, and all that tip money you feel so great about handing out isn't necessarily doing what you want, and it's certainly not sure to be doing more good than any other charitable use of that money. The arguments been made over and over, but it's still valid. If you aren't tipping every minimum wage worker you interact with, and all the ones close enough to throw money at that you don't interact with, and donating most of your disposable income to charity, etc., then you don't get to tell someone that their choice of how to spend their money is wrong.

    Folks that say this are actually falling into the social shame game that they claim doesn't exist. Why do you tip your server and not all the servers, busboys, cooks, you see? It's because you want your fancy good (opposite of shame) feeling for supporting the income of somebody that serves you. Heck, you could support the workers more by just going in, handing them a tip, and walking out. No need to take up their time with actually ordering the food.

    Ugh, telling people they shouldn't eat out if they can't afford to tip is no different than telling folks on WIC that they should only be able to buy dry rice and beans. Yes, it's a societal norm that the tip is included, but it's also a commonly held belief that poor people shouldn't have anything nice. Both ideas suck.

    Uh...yes it is. When a person buys a tiny bit nicer food with their SNAP benefits or whatever they aren't also shorting a worker of their living wage. If you choose to dine in an establishment where you know the waitstaff's living is dependent on tips (which is generally not the case for cooks) and you choose not to tip you are not fighting the system you are just assuring the person that served you isn't going to receive fair compensation for their labor.

    Systemic change is not achieved by individual choice. We have an ocean filled with plastic garbage that is proof of that.

    I mean the workers at the grocery you go to are probably minimum-wage. Maybe you should be tipping them, and don't go there if you can't!

    People at the grocery store aren't working in service of me like waitstaff. Also, generally grocery stores pay quite well and offer benefits.

    OK, so if you can't afford to tip your grocery bagger, then DON"T GO THERE!

    Or just carry your own groceries.

    Bagging your groceries isn't the same as carrying them to your car, and some places don't let you bag your own stuff.

    I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
  • Options
    Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular
    Butters wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    Butters wrote: »
    cncaudata wrote: »
    If some folks are arguing that the business paying their workers $18/hour, giving them benefits, and not allowing tips is the bad guy because some workers might have made more money from tips... I don't know what to do.

    Like, I am way better off if men keep getting paid more than women for the same work. That doesn't mean we should keep doing it.

    Put your actual prices on the menu, pay your workers the actual money they're going to earn, and everyone can apply for the job or order the food with full knowledge of the transactions being made. If $18 isn't enough for that work, then workers will go get other jobs, etc.

    I'd also like to address a thread of this conversation that popped up again, wherein people are told that they are dicks for not tipping, because tipping is a good thing to do to provide income for workers that are underpaid by their employers. Um, no. You don't get to tell people they're dicks for making a different choice in how to spend their charity dollars. Money is fungible, and all that tip money you feel so great about handing out isn't necessarily doing what you want, and it's certainly not sure to be doing more good than any other charitable use of that money. The arguments been made over and over, but it's still valid. If you aren't tipping every minimum wage worker you interact with, and all the ones close enough to throw money at that you don't interact with, and donating most of your disposable income to charity, etc., then you don't get to tell someone that their choice of how to spend their money is wrong.

    Folks that say this are actually falling into the social shame game that they claim doesn't exist. Why do you tip your server and not all the servers, busboys, cooks, you see? It's because you want your fancy good (opposite of shame) feeling for supporting the income of somebody that serves you. Heck, you could support the workers more by just going in, handing them a tip, and walking out. No need to take up their time with actually ordering the food.

    Ugh, telling people they shouldn't eat out if they can't afford to tip is no different than telling folks on WIC that they should only be able to buy dry rice and beans. Yes, it's a societal norm that the tip is included, but it's also a commonly held belief that poor people shouldn't have anything nice. Both ideas suck.

    Uh...yes it is. When a person buys a tiny bit nicer food with their SNAP benefits or whatever they aren't also shorting a worker of their living wage. If you choose to dine in an establishment where you know the waitstaff's living is dependent on tips (which is generally not the case for cooks) and you choose not to tip you are not fighting the system you are just assuring the person that served you isn't going to receive fair compensation for their labor.

    Systemic change is not achieved by individual choice. We have an ocean filled with plastic garbage that is proof of that.

    I mean the workers at the grocery you go to are probably minimum-wage. Maybe you should be tipping them, and don't go there if you can't!

    For the umpteenth time, tipped workers outside of major cities on the coasts are NOT GUARANTEED FEDERAL OR STATE MINIMUM WAGE. We live in a country where tipped employees get as little as $2.13 an hour on their checks and wage theft is rampant.

    For the umpteenth time, paying less the minimum wage is illegal, no one takes home $2.13 an hour without their employer committing a crime.

  • Options
    kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    Butters wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    Butters wrote: »
    cncaudata wrote: »
    If some folks are arguing that the business paying their workers $18/hour, giving them benefits, and not allowing tips is the bad guy because some workers might have made more money from tips... I don't know what to do.

    Like, I am way better off if men keep getting paid more than women for the same work. That doesn't mean we should keep doing it.

    Put your actual prices on the menu, pay your workers the actual money they're going to earn, and everyone can apply for the job or order the food with full knowledge of the transactions being made. If $18 isn't enough for that work, then workers will go get other jobs, etc.

    I'd also like to address a thread of this conversation that popped up again, wherein people are told that they are dicks for not tipping, because tipping is a good thing to do to provide income for workers that are underpaid by their employers. Um, no. You don't get to tell people they're dicks for making a different choice in how to spend their charity dollars. Money is fungible, and all that tip money you feel so great about handing out isn't necessarily doing what you want, and it's certainly not sure to be doing more good than any other charitable use of that money. The arguments been made over and over, but it's still valid. If you aren't tipping every minimum wage worker you interact with, and all the ones close enough to throw money at that you don't interact with, and donating most of your disposable income to charity, etc., then you don't get to tell someone that their choice of how to spend their money is wrong.

    Folks that say this are actually falling into the social shame game that they claim doesn't exist. Why do you tip your server and not all the servers, busboys, cooks, you see? It's because you want your fancy good (opposite of shame) feeling for supporting the income of somebody that serves you. Heck, you could support the workers more by just going in, handing them a tip, and walking out. No need to take up their time with actually ordering the food.

    Ugh, telling people they shouldn't eat out if they can't afford to tip is no different than telling folks on WIC that they should only be able to buy dry rice and beans. Yes, it's a societal norm that the tip is included, but it's also a commonly held belief that poor people shouldn't have anything nice. Both ideas suck.

    Uh...yes it is. When a person buys a tiny bit nicer food with their SNAP benefits or whatever they aren't also shorting a worker of their living wage. If you choose to dine in an establishment where you know the waitstaff's living is dependent on tips (which is generally not the case for cooks) and you choose not to tip you are not fighting the system you are just assuring the person that served you isn't going to receive fair compensation for their labor.

    Systemic change is not achieved by individual choice. We have an ocean filled with plastic garbage that is proof of that.

    I mean the workers at the grocery you go to are probably minimum-wage. Maybe you should be tipping them, and don't go there if you can't!

    For the umpteenth time, tipped workers outside of major cities on the coasts are NOT GUARANTEED FEDERAL OR STATE MINIMUM WAGE. We live in a country where tipped employees get as little as $2.13 an hour on their checks and wage theft is rampant.

    A decent chunk of the US doesn't have a tip credit, albeit a minority. If you are only talking about places with a tip credit, it would be nice if you specify that! So, to be clear, it's OK for folks to eat out even if they can't afford a tip here where I live in WA state, yeah?

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  • Options
    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited April 2023
    Butters wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    Butters wrote: »
    cncaudata wrote: »
    If some folks are arguing that the business paying their workers $18/hour, giving them benefits, and not allowing tips is the bad guy because some workers might have made more money from tips... I don't know what to do.

    Like, I am way better off if men keep getting paid more than women for the same work. That doesn't mean we should keep doing it.

    Put your actual prices on the menu, pay your workers the actual money they're going to earn, and everyone can apply for the job or order the food with full knowledge of the transactions being made. If $18 isn't enough for that work, then workers will go get other jobs, etc.

    I'd also like to address a thread of this conversation that popped up again, wherein people are told that they are dicks for not tipping, because tipping is a good thing to do to provide income for workers that are underpaid by their employers. Um, no. You don't get to tell people they're dicks for making a different choice in how to spend their charity dollars. Money is fungible, and all that tip money you feel so great about handing out isn't necessarily doing what you want, and it's certainly not sure to be doing more good than any other charitable use of that money. The arguments been made over and over, but it's still valid. If you aren't tipping every minimum wage worker you interact with, and all the ones close enough to throw money at that you don't interact with, and donating most of your disposable income to charity, etc., then you don't get to tell someone that their choice of how to spend their money is wrong.

    Folks that say this are actually falling into the social shame game that they claim doesn't exist. Why do you tip your server and not all the servers, busboys, cooks, you see? It's because you want your fancy good (opposite of shame) feeling for supporting the income of somebody that serves you. Heck, you could support the workers more by just going in, handing them a tip, and walking out. No need to take up their time with actually ordering the food.

    Ugh, telling people they shouldn't eat out if they can't afford to tip is no different than telling folks on WIC that they should only be able to buy dry rice and beans. Yes, it's a societal norm that the tip is included, but it's also a commonly held belief that poor people shouldn't have anything nice. Both ideas suck.

    Uh...yes it is. When a person buys a tiny bit nicer food with their SNAP benefits or whatever they aren't also shorting a worker of their living wage. If you choose to dine in an establishment where you know the waitstaff's living is dependent on tips (which is generally not the case for cooks) and you choose not to tip you are not fighting the system you are just assuring the person that served you isn't going to receive fair compensation for their labor.

    Systemic change is not achieved by individual choice. We have an ocean filled with plastic garbage that is proof of that.

    I mean the workers at the grocery you go to are probably minimum-wage. Maybe you should be tipping them, and don't go there if you can't!

    For the umpteenth time, tipped workers outside of major cities on the coasts are NOT GUARANTEED FEDERAL OR STATE MINIMUM WAGE. We live in a country where tipped employees get as little as $2.13 an hour on their checks and wage theft is rampant.

    And for the umpteefirst time, wage theft is rampant in untipped labor as well, and legally every employee very much is guaranteed minimum wage.* All caps doesn’t make something true.

    Yes, employees can see hours cut or be let go if they consistently fail to clear the full tip credit. I know. We all know. But if enough people simply stop tipping, that becomes less of an issue…we’re back to “they can’t fire everyone.”

    Yes, the new argument then becomes “but but but the minimum wage isn’t actually enough!” Which, while true, means that the “server minimum” is a red herring. It’s irrelevant to the conversation. A third of the US doesn’t have it, tip customs are literally zero different in that third of the US, so in a discussion of whether tipping needs to die and whether it’s time to pull the trigger on it today the “server wage” is meaningless.

    * - Since this is very much That Kind Of Thread, I’ll acknowledge the very limited exceptions to this, mostly centered around child labor and family farm work and not relevant to this conversation.

    mcdermott on
  • Options
    syndalissyndalis Getting Classy On the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Products regular
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Butters wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    Butters wrote: »
    cncaudata wrote: »
    If some folks are arguing that the business paying their workers $18/hour, giving them benefits, and not allowing tips is the bad guy because some workers might have made more money from tips... I don't know what to do.

    Like, I am way better off if men keep getting paid more than women for the same work. That doesn't mean we should keep doing it.

    Put your actual prices on the menu, pay your workers the actual money they're going to earn, and everyone can apply for the job or order the food with full knowledge of the transactions being made. If $18 isn't enough for that work, then workers will go get other jobs, etc.

    I'd also like to address a thread of this conversation that popped up again, wherein people are told that they are dicks for not tipping, because tipping is a good thing to do to provide income for workers that are underpaid by their employers. Um, no. You don't get to tell people they're dicks for making a different choice in how to spend their charity dollars. Money is fungible, and all that tip money you feel so great about handing out isn't necessarily doing what you want, and it's certainly not sure to be doing more good than any other charitable use of that money. The arguments been made over and over, but it's still valid. If you aren't tipping every minimum wage worker you interact with, and all the ones close enough to throw money at that you don't interact with, and donating most of your disposable income to charity, etc., then you don't get to tell someone that their choice of how to spend their money is wrong.

    Folks that say this are actually falling into the social shame game that they claim doesn't exist. Why do you tip your server and not all the servers, busboys, cooks, you see? It's because you want your fancy good (opposite of shame) feeling for supporting the income of somebody that serves you. Heck, you could support the workers more by just going in, handing them a tip, and walking out. No need to take up their time with actually ordering the food.

    Ugh, telling people they shouldn't eat out if they can't afford to tip is no different than telling folks on WIC that they should only be able to buy dry rice and beans. Yes, it's a societal norm that the tip is included, but it's also a commonly held belief that poor people shouldn't have anything nice. Both ideas suck.

    Uh...yes it is. When a person buys a tiny bit nicer food with their SNAP benefits or whatever they aren't also shorting a worker of their living wage. If you choose to dine in an establishment where you know the waitstaff's living is dependent on tips (which is generally not the case for cooks) and you choose not to tip you are not fighting the system you are just assuring the person that served you isn't going to receive fair compensation for their labor.

    Systemic change is not achieved by individual choice. We have an ocean filled with plastic garbage that is proof of that.

    I mean the workers at the grocery you go to are probably minimum-wage. Maybe you should be tipping them, and don't go there if you can't!

    For the umpteenth time, tipped workers outside of major cities on the coasts are NOT GUARANTEED FEDERAL OR STATE MINIMUM WAGE. We live in a country where tipped employees get as little as $2.13 an hour on their checks and wage theft is rampant.

    For the umpteenth time, paying less the minimum wage is illegal, no one takes home $2.13 an hour without their employer committing a crime.

    They absolutely can and do start at 2.13

    And all the credit card tips get added into the pay for their hours.

    If it doesn't add up to minimum wage, they pay the difference to make it minimum wage. In many places this is like 8 bucks.

    Cash tips? Wait staff lie. And they want their tips in cash.

    The tips are not on top of minimum wage in most places; they are often there to allow employers to pay almost nothing for labor.

    SW-4158-3990-6116
    Let's play Mario Kart or something...
  • Options
    kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    syndalis wrote: »
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Butters wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    Butters wrote: »
    cncaudata wrote: »
    If some folks are arguing that the business paying their workers $18/hour, giving them benefits, and not allowing tips is the bad guy because some workers might have made more money from tips... I don't know what to do.

    Like, I am way better off if men keep getting paid more than women for the same work. That doesn't mean we should keep doing it.

    Put your actual prices on the menu, pay your workers the actual money they're going to earn, and everyone can apply for the job or order the food with full knowledge of the transactions being made. If $18 isn't enough for that work, then workers will go get other jobs, etc.

    I'd also like to address a thread of this conversation that popped up again, wherein people are told that they are dicks for not tipping, because tipping is a good thing to do to provide income for workers that are underpaid by their employers. Um, no. You don't get to tell people they're dicks for making a different choice in how to spend their charity dollars. Money is fungible, and all that tip money you feel so great about handing out isn't necessarily doing what you want, and it's certainly not sure to be doing more good than any other charitable use of that money. The arguments been made over and over, but it's still valid. If you aren't tipping every minimum wage worker you interact with, and all the ones close enough to throw money at that you don't interact with, and donating most of your disposable income to charity, etc., then you don't get to tell someone that their choice of how to spend their money is wrong.

    Folks that say this are actually falling into the social shame game that they claim doesn't exist. Why do you tip your server and not all the servers, busboys, cooks, you see? It's because you want your fancy good (opposite of shame) feeling for supporting the income of somebody that serves you. Heck, you could support the workers more by just going in, handing them a tip, and walking out. No need to take up their time with actually ordering the food.

    Ugh, telling people they shouldn't eat out if they can't afford to tip is no different than telling folks on WIC that they should only be able to buy dry rice and beans. Yes, it's a societal norm that the tip is included, but it's also a commonly held belief that poor people shouldn't have anything nice. Both ideas suck.

    Uh...yes it is. When a person buys a tiny bit nicer food with their SNAP benefits or whatever they aren't also shorting a worker of their living wage. If you choose to dine in an establishment where you know the waitstaff's living is dependent on tips (which is generally not the case for cooks) and you choose not to tip you are not fighting the system you are just assuring the person that served you isn't going to receive fair compensation for their labor.

    Systemic change is not achieved by individual choice. We have an ocean filled with plastic garbage that is proof of that.

    I mean the workers at the grocery you go to are probably minimum-wage. Maybe you should be tipping them, and don't go there if you can't!

    For the umpteenth time, tipped workers outside of major cities on the coasts are NOT GUARANTEED FEDERAL OR STATE MINIMUM WAGE. We live in a country where tipped employees get as little as $2.13 an hour on their checks and wage theft is rampant.

    For the umpteenth time, paying less the minimum wage is illegal, no one takes home $2.13 an hour without their employer committing a crime.

    They absolutely can and do start at 2.13

    And all the credit card tips get added into the pay for their hours.

    If it doesn't add up to minimum wage, they pay the difference to make it minimum wage. In many places this is like 8 bucks.

    Cash tips? Wait staff lie. And they want their tips in cash.

    The tips are not on top of minimum wage in most places; they are often there to allow employers to pay almost nothing for labor.

    Yes, we all know how that works. You're saying what Phoenix is saying. The takeaway is they are legally guaranteed the minimum wage even if their per-hour pay is $2, because as you said that gets bumped up by the employer if tips don't make up for it. Phoenix was not saying that pay can't start at $2/hour, just that you can't actually have that be your minimum take-home pay. Legally.

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  • Options
    Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular
    syndalis wrote: »
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Butters wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    Butters wrote: »
    cncaudata wrote: »
    If some folks are arguing that the business paying their workers $18/hour, giving them benefits, and not allowing tips is the bad guy because some workers might have made more money from tips... I don't know what to do.

    Like, I am way better off if men keep getting paid more than women for the same work. That doesn't mean we should keep doing it.

    Put your actual prices on the menu, pay your workers the actual money they're going to earn, and everyone can apply for the job or order the food with full knowledge of the transactions being made. If $18 isn't enough for that work, then workers will go get other jobs, etc.

    I'd also like to address a thread of this conversation that popped up again, wherein people are told that they are dicks for not tipping, because tipping is a good thing to do to provide income for workers that are underpaid by their employers. Um, no. You don't get to tell people they're dicks for making a different choice in how to spend their charity dollars. Money is fungible, and all that tip money you feel so great about handing out isn't necessarily doing what you want, and it's certainly not sure to be doing more good than any other charitable use of that money. The arguments been made over and over, but it's still valid. If you aren't tipping every minimum wage worker you interact with, and all the ones close enough to throw money at that you don't interact with, and donating most of your disposable income to charity, etc., then you don't get to tell someone that their choice of how to spend their money is wrong.

    Folks that say this are actually falling into the social shame game that they claim doesn't exist. Why do you tip your server and not all the servers, busboys, cooks, you see? It's because you want your fancy good (opposite of shame) feeling for supporting the income of somebody that serves you. Heck, you could support the workers more by just going in, handing them a tip, and walking out. No need to take up their time with actually ordering the food.

    Ugh, telling people they shouldn't eat out if they can't afford to tip is no different than telling folks on WIC that they should only be able to buy dry rice and beans. Yes, it's a societal norm that the tip is included, but it's also a commonly held belief that poor people shouldn't have anything nice. Both ideas suck.

    Uh...yes it is. When a person buys a tiny bit nicer food with their SNAP benefits or whatever they aren't also shorting a worker of their living wage. If you choose to dine in an establishment where you know the waitstaff's living is dependent on tips (which is generally not the case for cooks) and you choose not to tip you are not fighting the system you are just assuring the person that served you isn't going to receive fair compensation for their labor.

    Systemic change is not achieved by individual choice. We have an ocean filled with plastic garbage that is proof of that.

    I mean the workers at the grocery you go to are probably minimum-wage. Maybe you should be tipping them, and don't go there if you can't!

    For the umpteenth time, tipped workers outside of major cities on the coasts are NOT GUARANTEED FEDERAL OR STATE MINIMUM WAGE. We live in a country where tipped employees get as little as $2.13 an hour on their checks and wage theft is rampant.

    For the umpteenth time, paying less the minimum wage is illegal, no one takes home $2.13 an hour without their employer committing a crime.

    They absolutely can and do start at 2.13

    And all the credit card tips get added into the pay for their hours.

    If it doesn't add up to minimum wage, they pay the difference to make it minimum wage. In many places this is like 8 bucks.

    Cash tips? Wait staff lie. And they want their tips in cash.

    The tips are not on top of minimum wage in most places; they are often there to allow employers to pay almost nothing for labor.

    bolded means that no
    NOT GUARANTEED FEDERAL OR STATE MINIMUM WAGE

    isn't true.

  • Options
    ElJeffeElJeffe Roaming the streets, waving his mod gun around.Moderator, ClubPA Mod Emeritus
    R-dem wrote: »
    No, I posted their marketing poster and you immediately started shitting all over them with out of date information that's now been quite thoroughly refuted. I'm not sure what Molly Moon's ever did to you but I do respect your stubbornness.

    No, my numbers are fine. Their entry level front end employees, the ones who would be tipped, make 31 cents above minimum wage. Thats about 2.50 over an 8 hour shift. The workers would be significantly better off if they were allowed tips and paid minimum wage.

    At the time the policy was implemented, their starting pay was several dollars an hour above minimum. Taken at face value, this means that the store voluntarily decided to pay its employees more instead of offloading the cost to customers via tips. Even if the employees on balance made less after tips were banned - which I'm skeptical of - this is an example of an employer willingly paying their employees more than they're required, which is the sort of behavior we've all been arguing is the sort of thing we want.

    Now, given that the employer decided, of his own accord, to pay more than required, I think he deserves a bit of benefit of the doubt regarding whatever the current situation is. We know the entry level pay is reserved for exactly the sort of people we are reminded are the only ones for whom minimum wage is appropriate. We know the non-part time folks seem to earn significantly more than that. We don't know how long an employee makes "entry level" pay. Basically, our concrete information is that the guy shelled out a bunch of money to pay his employees better several years before situations improved on a more societal level. There's at least a strong possibility that he's still willing to put his money where his mouth is as regards the wellbeing of his employees.

    But I guess fuck him because he's an employer, and employers are always wrong, even when they try to do right, because they're secretly the MOST wrong? You just really do seem to be pissed at this guy more than you are at the average employers who legit don't give a shit.

    I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
  • Options
    GilgaronGilgaron Registered User regular
    R-dem wrote: »
    No, I posted their marketing poster and you immediately started shitting all over them with out of date information that's now been quite thoroughly refuted. I'm not sure what Molly Moon's ever did to you but I do respect your stubbornness.

    No, my numbers are fine. Their entry level front end employees, the ones who would be tipped, make 31 cents above minimum wage. Thats about 2.50 over an 8 hour shift. The workers would be significantly better off if they were allowed tips and paid minimum wage.

    There's more to it than that, though. I can compare salary at two jobs. I can also compare wages at two employers. Comparing anticipated tip amounts would be very fraught. The latter can change based on factors way outside my control. The wages is stable unless my hours can be reduced outside my control, and the foremost is stable to the point that they will have to weigh paying out my severance for changing it. For salary and wages the gambling is all done by the employer, for tips it is being done by the employee.

  • Options
    OrcaOrca Also known as Espressosaurus WrexRegistered User regular
    What I have learned from this thread is that for jobs that have historically been tipped any discussion of changing the status quo is verboten.

    When we're served by robots we'll still be tipping the robots because that is the way it's done.

  • Options
    ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited April 2023
    Of course. To do otherwise would be organicist.

    I’ll have you know that the Robotic Server Professionals (TM) deserve every bit of gratitude we provide for their biological coworkers.

    Also this line comes from Raytheon, and we’re not 100% certain combat functionality was finally stripped from this generation, so to play on the safe side…

    Forar on
    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
  • Options
    SummaryJudgmentSummaryJudgment Grab the hottest iron you can find, stride in the Tower’s front door Registered User regular
    Why have we homed in on this one business that is paying their workers better than, like, 95% of other service industry jobs and doing basically what the thread consensus was on tipping? IDGI

    They were frontpaged on Reddit this morning.

    Some days Blue wonders why anyone ever bothered making numbers so small; other days she supposes even infinity needs to start somewhere.
  • Options
    SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Fuck Warren Ellis Registered User regular
    kime wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    Butters wrote: »
    cncaudata wrote: »
    If some folks are arguing that the business paying their workers $18/hour, giving them benefits, and not allowing tips is the bad guy because some workers might have made more money from tips... I don't know what to do.

    Like, I am way better off if men keep getting paid more than women for the same work. That doesn't mean we should keep doing it.

    Put your actual prices on the menu, pay your workers the actual money they're going to earn, and everyone can apply for the job or order the food with full knowledge of the transactions being made. If $18 isn't enough for that work, then workers will go get other jobs, etc.

    I'd also like to address a thread of this conversation that popped up again, wherein people are told that they are dicks for not tipping, because tipping is a good thing to do to provide income for workers that are underpaid by their employers. Um, no. You don't get to tell people they're dicks for making a different choice in how to spend their charity dollars. Money is fungible, and all that tip money you feel so great about handing out isn't necessarily doing what you want, and it's certainly not sure to be doing more good than any other charitable use of that money. The arguments been made over and over, but it's still valid. If you aren't tipping every minimum wage worker you interact with, and all the ones close enough to throw money at that you don't interact with, and donating most of your disposable income to charity, etc., then you don't get to tell someone that their choice of how to spend their money is wrong.

    Folks that say this are actually falling into the social shame game that they claim doesn't exist. Why do you tip your server and not all the servers, busboys, cooks, you see? It's because you want your fancy good (opposite of shame) feeling for supporting the income of somebody that serves you. Heck, you could support the workers more by just going in, handing them a tip, and walking out. No need to take up their time with actually ordering the food.

    Ugh, telling people they shouldn't eat out if they can't afford to tip is no different than telling folks on WIC that they should only be able to buy dry rice and beans. Yes, it's a societal norm that the tip is included, but it's also a commonly held belief that poor people shouldn't have anything nice. Both ideas suck.

    Uh...yes it is. When a person buys a tiny bit nicer food with their SNAP benefits or whatever they aren't also shorting a worker of their living wage. If you choose to dine in an establishment where you know the waitstaff's living is dependent on tips (which is generally not the case for cooks) and you choose not to tip you are not fighting the system you are just assuring the person that served you isn't going to receive fair compensation for their labor.

    Systemic change is not achieved by individual choice. We have an ocean filled with plastic garbage that is proof of that.

    I mean the workers at the grocery you go to are probably minimum-wage. Maybe you should be tipping them, and don't go there if you can't!

    People at the grocery store aren't working in service of me like waitstaff. Also, generally grocery stores pay quite well and offer benefits.

    OK, so if you can't afford to tip your grocery bagger, then DON"T GO THERE!

    I genuinely don't understand how this is a coherent response to what I posted.

  • Options
    OrcaOrca Also known as Espressosaurus WrexRegistered User regular
    edited April 2023
    kime wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    Butters wrote: »
    cncaudata wrote: »
    If some folks are arguing that the business paying their workers $18/hour, giving them benefits, and not allowing tips is the bad guy because some workers might have made more money from tips... I don't know what to do.

    Like, I am way better off if men keep getting paid more than women for the same work. That doesn't mean we should keep doing it.

    Put your actual prices on the menu, pay your workers the actual money they're going to earn, and everyone can apply for the job or order the food with full knowledge of the transactions being made. If $18 isn't enough for that work, then workers will go get other jobs, etc.

    I'd also like to address a thread of this conversation that popped up again, wherein people are told that they are dicks for not tipping, because tipping is a good thing to do to provide income for workers that are underpaid by their employers. Um, no. You don't get to tell people they're dicks for making a different choice in how to spend their charity dollars. Money is fungible, and all that tip money you feel so great about handing out isn't necessarily doing what you want, and it's certainly not sure to be doing more good than any other charitable use of that money. The arguments been made over and over, but it's still valid. If you aren't tipping every minimum wage worker you interact with, and all the ones close enough to throw money at that you don't interact with, and donating most of your disposable income to charity, etc., then you don't get to tell someone that their choice of how to spend their money is wrong.

    Folks that say this are actually falling into the social shame game that they claim doesn't exist. Why do you tip your server and not all the servers, busboys, cooks, you see? It's because you want your fancy good (opposite of shame) feeling for supporting the income of somebody that serves you. Heck, you could support the workers more by just going in, handing them a tip, and walking out. No need to take up their time with actually ordering the food.

    Ugh, telling people they shouldn't eat out if they can't afford to tip is no different than telling folks on WIC that they should only be able to buy dry rice and beans. Yes, it's a societal norm that the tip is included, but it's also a commonly held belief that poor people shouldn't have anything nice. Both ideas suck.

    Uh...yes it is. When a person buys a tiny bit nicer food with their SNAP benefits or whatever they aren't also shorting a worker of their living wage. If you choose to dine in an establishment where you know the waitstaff's living is dependent on tips (which is generally not the case for cooks) and you choose not to tip you are not fighting the system you are just assuring the person that served you isn't going to receive fair compensation for their labor.

    Systemic change is not achieved by individual choice. We have an ocean filled with plastic garbage that is proof of that.

    I mean the workers at the grocery you go to are probably minimum-wage. Maybe you should be tipping them, and don't go there if you can't!

    People at the grocery store aren't working in service of me like waitstaff. Also, generally grocery stores pay quite well and offer benefits.

    OK, so if you can't afford to tip your grocery bagger, then DON"T GO THERE!

    I genuinely don't understand how this is a coherent response to what I posted.

    The box boy (or girl) is working directly in service of you to bag your groceries or grab an item you forgot. Starting pay at a grocery store is almost invariably minimum wage or at best a quarter above it. Union dues will be taken out of it if it's a union store. You'll spend some amount of time there depending on if you want to move up and if there is a position to move up to.

    Should the box boy get tipped to bag your groceries and take your carts back from to the store?

    Orca on
  • Options
    CaedwyrCaedwyr Registered User regular
    https://medium.com/s/story/a-field-guide-to-bad-faith-arguments-7-terrible-arguments-in-your-mentions-ee4f194afbc9

    At times it feels like we're just running through the bad faith argument checklist nd get back to discussion around the core topic of this thread? There's been some interesting discussion



    I was listening to some old podcasts I'd downloaded for a road trip and came across this one which was relevant about tipping culture in Canada.

    https://www.cbc.ca/radio/checkup/canada-tips-gratuities-living-wage-1.6587896

    It goes over a lot of the same points as discussed in this thread and comes to a similar conclusion:
    Customers like the illusion of having power over the server and the server likes the illusion of controlling the amount of their own income, he adds.

    "In an ideal world, there would be no tipping. It's a human rights catastrophe. But it's just so deeply entrenched. I think we're stuck with it."

    There's also some relevant comments on the article, which is honestly shocking since comments on the CBC are normally a cesspool.
    A Guy wrote:
    I made a lot of money as a young man (high school and university student), back then 10% was a great tip!! ... last couple decades I was a very judgmental tipper, they had to earn the 7-10-12... 15% for great service tip .... now I can't afford going out ... the tax and tips on top of high prices.
    Years ago (say 20 or so) I remember seeing a tipping suggestion guideline at the bottom of a receipt in a restaurant on Church Street in Toronto. It went something like this:

    10% - service was good

    15% - service and food were good

    20% - service, food were good and I enjoyed myself

    30% - he just might be going home with you at the end of his shift.
    I work in the service industry and i would take a much higher salary instead of tips. then I wouldn't need to bend over backwards satisfying unreasonable demands from customers out of fear that they wont tip and then i cant pay my rent. living wage in most Canadian cities is pegged at 23-25 an hour now , id be content with that.
    A person wrote:
    With tips it’s sad that servers actually make way more per hour than childcare workers that raise our kids. Such a weird system of value we assign to certain jobs.
    Person A: Having recently visited a dermatological "spa" in Edmonton (they offer botox, filler, etc), I was prompted to tip with payment. I nearly fell over. The injections are done by nurses who are certainly paid significantly better than serving staff in the hospitality industry.
    Person B: Also, as a Nurse we are not supposed to accept any form of gratuity in the form of gifts, money, etc. as it is unethical because we are providing care for patients. I feel tipping would fall into this category.

    What these and a bunch of the other comments touched on is how people seem to be getting exhausted with addon charges. I recently booked a vacation and between the hotel rooms, the flights, and the car rental almost none of the places you book at are up front with any of the charges. I wasted an enormous amount of time searching for an option to only find out at the checkout that the price had doubled or trebled and was firmly out of my budget. I ended up doing most of my booking with the one company that actually listed the true prices up front. However, my experience was such that next time I might just skip the entire process and avoid the vacation destination trip for an alternate experience where it seems there's less attempts to scam me.

    This reminds me a lot of the experience I've had with delivery service and restaurant service fees/tip prompts that have ballooned. I recently got some delivery from a local restaurant that has had free delivery for orders over a certain amount within a certain distance for decades. While I could get delivery from them via Uber Eats, or Door Dash, or any of the range of delivery services, I could also just order direct from the restaurant. While I did tip the delivery person of course, this is a restaurant that always gives a discount for pickup orders for an amount that roughly matches the normal tip and will often hit skip when the tip prompt comes up on the point of sale machine.

  • Options
    Death of RatsDeath of Rats Registered User regular
    edited April 2023
    Orca wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    Butters wrote: »
    cncaudata wrote: »
    If some folks are arguing that the business paying their workers $18/hour, giving them benefits, and not allowing tips is the bad guy because some workers might have made more money from tips... I don't know what to do.

    Like, I am way better off if men keep getting paid more than women for the same work. That doesn't mean we should keep doing it.

    Put your actual prices on the menu, pay your workers the actual money they're going to earn, and everyone can apply for the job or order the food with full knowledge of the transactions being made. If $18 isn't enough for that work, then workers will go get other jobs, etc.

    I'd also like to address a thread of this conversation that popped up again, wherein people are told that they are dicks for not tipping, because tipping is a good thing to do to provide income for workers that are underpaid by their employers. Um, no. You don't get to tell people they're dicks for making a different choice in how to spend their charity dollars. Money is fungible, and all that tip money you feel so great about handing out isn't necessarily doing what you want, and it's certainly not sure to be doing more good than any other charitable use of that money. The arguments been made over and over, but it's still valid. If you aren't tipping every minimum wage worker you interact with, and all the ones close enough to throw money at that you don't interact with, and donating most of your disposable income to charity, etc., then you don't get to tell someone that their choice of how to spend their money is wrong.

    Folks that say this are actually falling into the social shame game that they claim doesn't exist. Why do you tip your server and not all the servers, busboys, cooks, you see? It's because you want your fancy good (opposite of shame) feeling for supporting the income of somebody that serves you. Heck, you could support the workers more by just going in, handing them a tip, and walking out. No need to take up their time with actually ordering the food.

    Ugh, telling people they shouldn't eat out if they can't afford to tip is no different than telling folks on WIC that they should only be able to buy dry rice and beans. Yes, it's a societal norm that the tip is included, but it's also a commonly held belief that poor people shouldn't have anything nice. Both ideas suck.

    Uh...yes it is. When a person buys a tiny bit nicer food with their SNAP benefits or whatever they aren't also shorting a worker of their living wage. If you choose to dine in an establishment where you know the waitstaff's living is dependent on tips (which is generally not the case for cooks) and you choose not to tip you are not fighting the system you are just assuring the person that served you isn't going to receive fair compensation for their labor.

    Systemic change is not achieved by individual choice. We have an ocean filled with plastic garbage that is proof of that.

    I mean the workers at the grocery you go to are probably minimum-wage. Maybe you should be tipping them, and don't go there if you can't!

    People at the grocery store aren't working in service of me like waitstaff. Also, generally grocery stores pay quite well and offer benefits.

    OK, so if you can't afford to tip your grocery bagger, then DON"T GO THERE!

    I genuinely don't understand how this is a coherent response to what I posted.

    The box boy (or girl) is working directly in service of you to bag your groceries or grab an item you forgot. Starting pay at a grocery store is almost invariably minimum wage or at best a quarter above it. Union dues will be taken out of it if it's a union store. You'll spend some amount of time there depending on if you want to move up and if there is a position to move up to.

    Should the box boy get tipped to bag your groceries and take your carts back from to the store?

    Honestly, I think the idea that retail workers get minimum wage isn't accurate. At least not in my experience.

    Death of Rats on
    No I don't.
  • Options
    SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Fuck Warren Ellis Registered User regular
    Orca wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    Butters wrote: »
    cncaudata wrote: »
    If some folks are arguing that the business paying their workers $18/hour, giving them benefits, and not allowing tips is the bad guy because some workers might have made more money from tips... I don't know what to do.

    Like, I am way better off if men keep getting paid more than women for the same work. That doesn't mean we should keep doing it.

    Put your actual prices on the menu, pay your workers the actual money they're going to earn, and everyone can apply for the job or order the food with full knowledge of the transactions being made. If $18 isn't enough for that work, then workers will go get other jobs, etc.

    I'd also like to address a thread of this conversation that popped up again, wherein people are told that they are dicks for not tipping, because tipping is a good thing to do to provide income for workers that are underpaid by their employers. Um, no. You don't get to tell people they're dicks for making a different choice in how to spend their charity dollars. Money is fungible, and all that tip money you feel so great about handing out isn't necessarily doing what you want, and it's certainly not sure to be doing more good than any other charitable use of that money. The arguments been made over and over, but it's still valid. If you aren't tipping every minimum wage worker you interact with, and all the ones close enough to throw money at that you don't interact with, and donating most of your disposable income to charity, etc., then you don't get to tell someone that their choice of how to spend their money is wrong.

    Folks that say this are actually falling into the social shame game that they claim doesn't exist. Why do you tip your server and not all the servers, busboys, cooks, you see? It's because you want your fancy good (opposite of shame) feeling for supporting the income of somebody that serves you. Heck, you could support the workers more by just going in, handing them a tip, and walking out. No need to take up their time with actually ordering the food.

    Ugh, telling people they shouldn't eat out if they can't afford to tip is no different than telling folks on WIC that they should only be able to buy dry rice and beans. Yes, it's a societal norm that the tip is included, but it's also a commonly held belief that poor people shouldn't have anything nice. Both ideas suck.

    Uh...yes it is. When a person buys a tiny bit nicer food with their SNAP benefits or whatever they aren't also shorting a worker of their living wage. If you choose to dine in an establishment where you know the waitstaff's living is dependent on tips (which is generally not the case for cooks) and you choose not to tip you are not fighting the system you are just assuring the person that served you isn't going to receive fair compensation for their labor.

    Systemic change is not achieved by individual choice. We have an ocean filled with plastic garbage that is proof of that.

    I mean the workers at the grocery you go to are probably minimum-wage. Maybe you should be tipping them, and don't go there if you can't!

    People at the grocery store aren't working in service of me like waitstaff. Also, generally grocery stores pay quite well and offer benefits.

    OK, so if you can't afford to tip your grocery bagger, then DON"T GO THERE!

    I genuinely don't understand how this is a coherent response to what I posted.

    The box boy (or girl) is working directly in service of you to bag your groceries or grab an item you forgot. Starting pay at a grocery store is almost invariably minimum wage or at best a quarter above it. Union dues will be taken out of it if it's a union store. You'll spend some amount of time there depending on if you want to move up and if there is a position to move up to.

    Should the box boy get tipped to bag your groceries and take your carts back from to the store?

    Maybe this is a Canada thing but our grocery stores run nothing like that. You typically bag your own groceries, or the cashier does it, then you take your bags to your car yourself. Returning your cart to a cart corral before you leave. If someone did carry my groceries to my car for me, yes, I would probably tip them.

  • Options
    OrcaOrca Also known as Espressosaurus WrexRegistered User regular
    Orca wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    Butters wrote: »
    cncaudata wrote: »
    If some folks are arguing that the business paying their workers $18/hour, giving them benefits, and not allowing tips is the bad guy because some workers might have made more money from tips... I don't know what to do.

    Like, I am way better off if men keep getting paid more than women for the same work. That doesn't mean we should keep doing it.

    Put your actual prices on the menu, pay your workers the actual money they're going to earn, and everyone can apply for the job or order the food with full knowledge of the transactions being made. If $18 isn't enough for that work, then workers will go get other jobs, etc.

    I'd also like to address a thread of this conversation that popped up again, wherein people are told that they are dicks for not tipping, because tipping is a good thing to do to provide income for workers that are underpaid by their employers. Um, no. You don't get to tell people they're dicks for making a different choice in how to spend their charity dollars. Money is fungible, and all that tip money you feel so great about handing out isn't necessarily doing what you want, and it's certainly not sure to be doing more good than any other charitable use of that money. The arguments been made over and over, but it's still valid. If you aren't tipping every minimum wage worker you interact with, and all the ones close enough to throw money at that you don't interact with, and donating most of your disposable income to charity, etc., then you don't get to tell someone that their choice of how to spend their money is wrong.

    Folks that say this are actually falling into the social shame game that they claim doesn't exist. Why do you tip your server and not all the servers, busboys, cooks, you see? It's because you want your fancy good (opposite of shame) feeling for supporting the income of somebody that serves you. Heck, you could support the workers more by just going in, handing them a tip, and walking out. No need to take up their time with actually ordering the food.

    Ugh, telling people they shouldn't eat out if they can't afford to tip is no different than telling folks on WIC that they should only be able to buy dry rice and beans. Yes, it's a societal norm that the tip is included, but it's also a commonly held belief that poor people shouldn't have anything nice. Both ideas suck.

    Uh...yes it is. When a person buys a tiny bit nicer food with their SNAP benefits or whatever they aren't also shorting a worker of their living wage. If you choose to dine in an establishment where you know the waitstaff's living is dependent on tips (which is generally not the case for cooks) and you choose not to tip you are not fighting the system you are just assuring the person that served you isn't going to receive fair compensation for their labor.

    Systemic change is not achieved by individual choice. We have an ocean filled with plastic garbage that is proof of that.

    I mean the workers at the grocery you go to are probably minimum-wage. Maybe you should be tipping them, and don't go there if you can't!

    People at the grocery store aren't working in service of me like waitstaff. Also, generally grocery stores pay quite well and offer benefits.

    OK, so if you can't afford to tip your grocery bagger, then DON"T GO THERE!

    I genuinely don't understand how this is a coherent response to what I posted.

    The box boy (or girl) is working directly in service of you to bag your groceries or grab an item you forgot. Starting pay at a grocery store is almost invariably minimum wage or at best a quarter above it. Union dues will be taken out of it if it's a union store. You'll spend some amount of time there depending on if you want to move up and if there is a position to move up to.

    Should the box boy get tipped to bag your groceries and take your carts back from to the store?

    Honestly, I think the idea that retail workers get minimum wage isn't accurate. At least not in my experience.

    I am being specific here. I was a box boy. I spent...I don't recall how long at this point as a box boy. 6 months maybe. I was paid damn close to minimum wage. I paid union dues. I did not receive tips. I busted my ass hauling carts back into the store. I bagged like a mofo because that is how I do. What is the special essence that makes a server worthy of a tip but a box boy not worthy of a tip?

  • Options
    Death of RatsDeath of Rats Registered User regular
    Orca wrote: »
    Orca wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    Butters wrote: »
    cncaudata wrote: »
    If some folks are arguing that the business paying their workers $18/hour, giving them benefits, and not allowing tips is the bad guy because some workers might have made more money from tips... I don't know what to do.

    Like, I am way better off if men keep getting paid more than women for the same work. That doesn't mean we should keep doing it.

    Put your actual prices on the menu, pay your workers the actual money they're going to earn, and everyone can apply for the job or order the food with full knowledge of the transactions being made. If $18 isn't enough for that work, then workers will go get other jobs, etc.

    I'd also like to address a thread of this conversation that popped up again, wherein people are told that they are dicks for not tipping, because tipping is a good thing to do to provide income for workers that are underpaid by their employers. Um, no. You don't get to tell people they're dicks for making a different choice in how to spend their charity dollars. Money is fungible, and all that tip money you feel so great about handing out isn't necessarily doing what you want, and it's certainly not sure to be doing more good than any other charitable use of that money. The arguments been made over and over, but it's still valid. If you aren't tipping every minimum wage worker you interact with, and all the ones close enough to throw money at that you don't interact with, and donating most of your disposable income to charity, etc., then you don't get to tell someone that their choice of how to spend their money is wrong.

    Folks that say this are actually falling into the social shame game that they claim doesn't exist. Why do you tip your server and not all the servers, busboys, cooks, you see? It's because you want your fancy good (opposite of shame) feeling for supporting the income of somebody that serves you. Heck, you could support the workers more by just going in, handing them a tip, and walking out. No need to take up their time with actually ordering the food.

    Ugh, telling people they shouldn't eat out if they can't afford to tip is no different than telling folks on WIC that they should only be able to buy dry rice and beans. Yes, it's a societal norm that the tip is included, but it's also a commonly held belief that poor people shouldn't have anything nice. Both ideas suck.

    Uh...yes it is. When a person buys a tiny bit nicer food with their SNAP benefits or whatever they aren't also shorting a worker of their living wage. If you choose to dine in an establishment where you know the waitstaff's living is dependent on tips (which is generally not the case for cooks) and you choose not to tip you are not fighting the system you are just assuring the person that served you isn't going to receive fair compensation for their labor.

    Systemic change is not achieved by individual choice. We have an ocean filled with plastic garbage that is proof of that.

    I mean the workers at the grocery you go to are probably minimum-wage. Maybe you should be tipping them, and don't go there if you can't!

    People at the grocery store aren't working in service of me like waitstaff. Also, generally grocery stores pay quite well and offer benefits.

    OK, so if you can't afford to tip your grocery bagger, then DON"T GO THERE!

    I genuinely don't understand how this is a coherent response to what I posted.

    The box boy (or girl) is working directly in service of you to bag your groceries or grab an item you forgot. Starting pay at a grocery store is almost invariably minimum wage or at best a quarter above it. Union dues will be taken out of it if it's a union store. You'll spend some amount of time there depending on if you want to move up and if there is a position to move up to.

    Should the box boy get tipped to bag your groceries and take your carts back from to the store?

    Honestly, I think the idea that retail workers get minimum wage isn't accurate. At least not in my experience.

    I am being specific here. I was a box boy. I spent...I don't recall how long at this point as a box boy. 6 months maybe. I was paid damn close to minimum wage. I paid union dues. I did not receive tips. I busted my ass hauling carts back into the store. I bagged like a mofo because that is how I do. What is the special essence that makes a server worthy of a tip but a box boy not worthy of a tip?

    Nothing.

    But this whataboutism isn't exactly useful.

    No I don't.
  • Options
    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    As recently as 2011 my ex was making literally minimum wage as a new hire at a grocery store, and had union dues coming out of that.

    Luckily it wasn’t a big deal, her pay was just supplemental for us and gave her something to do until she could land a teaching job. But yeah, it was a real eye opener seeing how some of the unions for retail workers operate for me. I’m generally very pro-union, but taking dues out of a worker’s paycheck when your bargaining agreement has them working for the legal minimum wage and no real benefits? Wild.

  • Options
    OrcaOrca Also known as Espressosaurus WrexRegistered User regular
    edited April 2023
    mcdermott wrote: »
    As recently as 2011 my ex was making literally minimum wage as a new hire at a grocery store, and had union dues coming out of that.

    Luckily it wasn’t a big deal, her pay was just supplemental for us and gave her something to do until she could land a teaching job. But yeah, it was a real eye opener seeing how some of the unions for retail workers operate for me. I’m generally very pro-union, but taking dues out of a worker’s paycheck when your bargaining agreement has them working for the legal minimum wage and no real benefits? Wild.

    TWO TIER

    edit: the two tier system was wonderfully effective at pitting new employees vs. old, and the same kind of dynamics are at play here. People that benefit (or think they benefit) from tips want to protect them. Those that don't, wonder why they get left out (busboys, back of the house, ...). And in the end it's all just stupid tradition at this point. It's arbitrary who benefits and who doesn't, but it's enshrined in social expectation.

    Orca on
  • Options
    TryCatcherTryCatcher Registered User regular
    Orca wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    As recently as 2011 my ex was making literally minimum wage as a new hire at a grocery store, and had union dues coming out of that.

    Luckily it wasn’t a big deal, her pay was just supplemental for us and gave her something to do until she could land a teaching job. But yeah, it was a real eye opener seeing how some of the unions for retail workers operate for me. I’m generally very pro-union, but taking dues out of a worker’s paycheck when your bargaining agreement has them working for the legal minimum wage and no real benefits? Wild.

    TWO TIER

    edit: the two tier system was wonderfully effective at pitting new employees vs. old, and the same kind of dynamics are at play here. People that benefit (or think they benefit) from tips want to protect them. Those that don't, wonder why they get left out (busboys, back of the house, ...). And in the end it's all just stupid tradition at this point. It's arbitrary who benefits and who doesn't, but it's enshrined in social expectation.

    I have never seen a two-tier system that didn't ended up on the union losing power entirely when the bottom half became the majority. Is a trick of the owner class to destroy unions in the long term, and union bosses that fall for it completely failed their duties to the membership of the union.

This discussion has been closed.