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Tipping/Gratuity Culture

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    Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular
    edited April 2023
    Orca wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    Butters wrote: »
    cncaudata wrote: »
    If some folks are arguing that the business paying their workers $18/hour, giving them benefits, and not allowing tips is the bad guy because some workers might have made more money from tips... I don't know what to do.

    Like, I am way better off if men keep getting paid more than women for the same work. That doesn't mean we should keep doing it.

    Put your actual prices on the menu, pay your workers the actual money they're going to earn, and everyone can apply for the job or order the food with full knowledge of the transactions being made. If $18 isn't enough for that work, then workers will go get other jobs, etc.

    I'd also like to address a thread of this conversation that popped up again, wherein people are told that they are dicks for not tipping, because tipping is a good thing to do to provide income for workers that are underpaid by their employers. Um, no. You don't get to tell people they're dicks for making a different choice in how to spend their charity dollars. Money is fungible, and all that tip money you feel so great about handing out isn't necessarily doing what you want, and it's certainly not sure to be doing more good than any other charitable use of that money. The arguments been made over and over, but it's still valid. If you aren't tipping every minimum wage worker you interact with, and all the ones close enough to throw money at that you don't interact with, and donating most of your disposable income to charity, etc., then you don't get to tell someone that their choice of how to spend their money is wrong.

    Folks that say this are actually falling into the social shame game that they claim doesn't exist. Why do you tip your server and not all the servers, busboys, cooks, you see? It's because you want your fancy good (opposite of shame) feeling for supporting the income of somebody that serves you. Heck, you could support the workers more by just going in, handing them a tip, and walking out. No need to take up their time with actually ordering the food.

    Ugh, telling people they shouldn't eat out if they can't afford to tip is no different than telling folks on WIC that they should only be able to buy dry rice and beans. Yes, it's a societal norm that the tip is included, but it's also a commonly held belief that poor people shouldn't have anything nice. Both ideas suck.

    Uh...yes it is. When a person buys a tiny bit nicer food with their SNAP benefits or whatever they aren't also shorting a worker of their living wage. If you choose to dine in an establishment where you know the waitstaff's living is dependent on tips (which is generally not the case for cooks) and you choose not to tip you are not fighting the system you are just assuring the person that served you isn't going to receive fair compensation for their labor.

    Systemic change is not achieved by individual choice. We have an ocean filled with plastic garbage that is proof of that.

    I mean the workers at the grocery you go to are probably minimum-wage. Maybe you should be tipping them, and don't go there if you can't!

    People at the grocery store aren't working in service of me like waitstaff. Also, generally grocery stores pay quite well and offer benefits.

    OK, so if you can't afford to tip your grocery bagger, then DON"T GO THERE!

    I genuinely don't understand how this is a coherent response to what I posted.

    The box boy (or girl) is working directly in service of you to bag your groceries or grab an item you forgot. Starting pay at a grocery store is almost invariably minimum wage or at best a quarter above it. Union dues will be taken out of it if it's a union store. You'll spend some amount of time there depending on if you want to move up and if there is a position to move up to.

    Should the box boy get tipped to bag your groceries and take your carts back from to the store?

    Honestly, I think the idea that retail workers get minimum wage isn't accurate. At least not in my experience.

    https://crosscut.com/opinion/2021/02/did-kroger-really-close-two-seattle-qfcs-over-hazard-pay
    QFC says its labor costs equal 13% of total sales, and its Seattle labor costs average $25.96 an hour, including benefits. (That’s believable: There tend to be a lot of newbies starting at $16.79, just over minimum wage, and a lot of old-timers near $23, the top of the union-won wage scale, with a sprinkling in between.)

    Phoenix-D on
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    OrcaOrca Also known as Espressosaurus WrexRegistered User regular
    edited April 2023
    TryCatcher wrote: »
    Orca wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    As recently as 2011 my ex was making literally minimum wage as a new hire at a grocery store, and had union dues coming out of that.

    Luckily it wasn’t a big deal, her pay was just supplemental for us and gave her something to do until she could land a teaching job. But yeah, it was a real eye opener seeing how some of the unions for retail workers operate for me. I’m generally very pro-union, but taking dues out of a worker’s paycheck when your bargaining agreement has them working for the legal minimum wage and no real benefits? Wild.

    TWO TIER

    edit: the two tier system was wonderfully effective at pitting new employees vs. old, and the same kind of dynamics are at play here. People that benefit (or think they benefit) from tips want to protect them. Those that don't, wonder why they get left out (busboys, back of the house, ...). And in the end it's all just stupid tradition at this point. It's arbitrary who benefits and who doesn't, but it's enshrined in social expectation.

    I have never seen a two-tier system that didn't ended up on the union losing power entirely when the bottom half became the majority. Is a trick of the owner class to destroy unions in the long term, and union bosses that fall for it completely failed their duties to the membership of the union.

    In this case, it took ten years, but eventually they managed to collapse it back to a single tier. Mostly. Thank god. Because let me tell you, I did in fact resent my coworkers making triple journeyman wages while I made straight minimum-for-the-tier wages working Christmas. Same work, ~6x difference in pay.

    Anyway. Back to your regularly scheduled tip thread.

    Orca on
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    crzyangocrzyango Registered User regular
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    crzyango wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    Butters wrote: »
    cncaudata wrote: »
    If some folks are arguing that the business paying their workers $18/hour, giving them benefits, and not allowing tips is the bad guy because some workers might have made more money from tips... I don't know what to do.

    Like, I am way better off if men keep getting paid more than women for the same work. That doesn't mean we should keep doing it.

    Put your actual prices on the menu, pay your workers the actual money they're going to earn, and everyone can apply for the job or order the food with full knowledge of the transactions being made. If $18 isn't enough for that work, then workers will go get other jobs, etc.

    I'd also like to address a thread of this conversation that popped up again, wherein people are told that they are dicks for not tipping, because tipping is a good thing to do to provide income for workers that are underpaid by their employers. Um, no. You don't get to tell people they're dicks for making a different choice in how to spend their charity dollars. Money is fungible, and all that tip money you feel so great about handing out isn't necessarily doing what you want, and it's certainly not sure to be doing more good than any other charitable use of that money. The arguments been made over and over, but it's still valid. If you aren't tipping every minimum wage worker you interact with, and all the ones close enough to throw money at that you don't interact with, and donating most of your disposable income to charity, etc., then you don't get to tell someone that their choice of how to spend their money is wrong.

    Folks that say this are actually falling into the social shame game that they claim doesn't exist. Why do you tip your server and not all the servers, busboys, cooks, you see? It's because you want your fancy good (opposite of shame) feeling for supporting the income of somebody that serves you. Heck, you could support the workers more by just going in, handing them a tip, and walking out. No need to take up their time with actually ordering the food.

    Ugh, telling people they shouldn't eat out if they can't afford to tip is no different than telling folks on WIC that they should only be able to buy dry rice and beans. Yes, it's a societal norm that the tip is included, but it's also a commonly held belief that poor people shouldn't have anything nice. Both ideas suck.

    Uh...yes it is. When a person buys a tiny bit nicer food with their SNAP benefits or whatever they aren't also shorting a worker of their living wage. If you choose to dine in an establishment where you know the waitstaff's living is dependent on tips (which is generally not the case for cooks) and you choose not to tip you are not fighting the system you are just assuring the person that served you isn't going to receive fair compensation for their labor.

    Systemic change is not achieved by individual choice. We have an ocean filled with plastic garbage that is proof of that.

    I mean the workers at the grocery you go to are probably minimum-wage. Maybe you should be tipping them, and don't go there if you can't!

    People at the grocery store aren't working in service of me like waitstaff. Also, generally grocery stores pay quite well and offer benefits.

    OK, so if you can't afford to tip your grocery bagger, then DON"T GO THERE!

    Or just carry your own groceries.

    Bagging your groceries isn't the same as carrying them to your car, and some places don't let you bag your own stuff.

    I guess things are different in Georgia, I was a bagger in my younger years and got paid under min wage depending on tips. I still live here and major chains don't staff enough baggers to actually cover all registers, and even if I have a bagger I still carry my own out instead of making them carry it out because I'm perfectly capable of not wasting their time without compensating them.

    The restaurant comparison I can make is, if you don't want to tip a server, go find a buffet.

  • Options
    cncaudatacncaudata Registered User regular
    Orca wrote: »
    Orca wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    Butters wrote: »
    cncaudata wrote: »
    If some folks are arguing that the business paying their workers $18/hour, giving them benefits, and not allowing tips is the bad guy because some workers might have made more money from tips... I don't know what to do.

    Like, I am way better off if men keep getting paid more than women for the same work. That doesn't mean we should keep doing it.

    Put your actual prices on the menu, pay your workers the actual money they're going to earn, and everyone can apply for the job or order the food with full knowledge of the transactions being made. If $18 isn't enough for that work, then workers will go get other jobs, etc.

    I'd also like to address a thread of this conversation that popped up again, wherein people are told that they are dicks for not tipping, because tipping is a good thing to do to provide income for workers that are underpaid by their employers. Um, no. You don't get to tell people they're dicks for making a different choice in how to spend their charity dollars. Money is fungible, and all that tip money you feel so great about handing out isn't necessarily doing what you want, and it's certainly not sure to be doing more good than any other charitable use of that money. The arguments been made over and over, but it's still valid. If you aren't tipping every minimum wage worker you interact with, and all the ones close enough to throw money at that you don't interact with, and donating most of your disposable income to charity, etc., then you don't get to tell someone that their choice of how to spend their money is wrong.

    Folks that say this are actually falling into the social shame game that they claim doesn't exist. Why do you tip your server and not all the servers, busboys, cooks, you see? It's because you want your fancy good (opposite of shame) feeling for supporting the income of somebody that serves you. Heck, you could support the workers more by just going in, handing them a tip, and walking out. No need to take up their time with actually ordering the food.

    Ugh, telling people they shouldn't eat out if they can't afford to tip is no different than telling folks on WIC that they should only be able to buy dry rice and beans. Yes, it's a societal norm that the tip is included, but it's also a commonly held belief that poor people shouldn't have anything nice. Both ideas suck.

    Uh...yes it is. When a person buys a tiny bit nicer food with their SNAP benefits or whatever they aren't also shorting a worker of their living wage. If you choose to dine in an establishment where you know the waitstaff's living is dependent on tips (which is generally not the case for cooks) and you choose not to tip you are not fighting the system you are just assuring the person that served you isn't going to receive fair compensation for their labor.

    Systemic change is not achieved by individual choice. We have an ocean filled with plastic garbage that is proof of that.

    I mean the workers at the grocery you go to are probably minimum-wage. Maybe you should be tipping them, and don't go there if you can't!

    People at the grocery store aren't working in service of me like waitstaff. Also, generally grocery stores pay quite well and offer benefits.

    OK, so if you can't afford to tip your grocery bagger, then DON"T GO THERE!

    I genuinely don't understand how this is a coherent response to what I posted.

    The box boy (or girl) is working directly in service of you to bag your groceries or grab an item you forgot. Starting pay at a grocery store is almost invariably minimum wage or at best a quarter above it. Union dues will be taken out of it if it's a union store. You'll spend some amount of time there depending on if you want to move up and if there is a position to move up to.

    Should the box boy get tipped to bag your groceries and take your carts back from to the store?

    Honestly, I think the idea that retail workers get minimum wage isn't accurate. At least not in my experience.

    I am being specific here. I was a box boy. I spent...I don't recall how long at this point as a box boy. 6 months maybe. I was paid damn close to minimum wage. I paid union dues. I did not receive tips. I busted my ass hauling carts back into the store. I bagged like a mofo because that is how I do. What is the special essence that makes a server worthy of a tip but a box boy not worthy of a tip?

    Nothing.

    But this whataboutism isn't exactly useful.

    This isn't whataboutism, it is a specific counterexample. If you argument is "we should tip low paid workers because they deserve the additional payment for their labor" then "but you don't tip the vast majority of low wage workers" is a solid argument. If your answer is to tip all low wage workers, then yeah, you have eliminated the counterargument and bringing it up would be whataboutism. However, I haven't seen a call for that, I've only seen calls to continue tipping the folks that have over time become commonplace to tip, based only on the argument present here

    PSN: Broodax- battle.net: broodax#1163
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    SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Fuck Warren Ellis Registered User regular
    cncaudata wrote: »
    Orca wrote: »
    Orca wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    Butters wrote: »
    cncaudata wrote: »
    If some folks are arguing that the business paying their workers $18/hour, giving them benefits, and not allowing tips is the bad guy because some workers might have made more money from tips... I don't know what to do.

    Like, I am way better off if men keep getting paid more than women for the same work. That doesn't mean we should keep doing it.

    Put your actual prices on the menu, pay your workers the actual money they're going to earn, and everyone can apply for the job or order the food with full knowledge of the transactions being made. If $18 isn't enough for that work, then workers will go get other jobs, etc.

    I'd also like to address a thread of this conversation that popped up again, wherein people are told that they are dicks for not tipping, because tipping is a good thing to do to provide income for workers that are underpaid by their employers. Um, no. You don't get to tell people they're dicks for making a different choice in how to spend their charity dollars. Money is fungible, and all that tip money you feel so great about handing out isn't necessarily doing what you want, and it's certainly not sure to be doing more good than any other charitable use of that money. The arguments been made over and over, but it's still valid. If you aren't tipping every minimum wage worker you interact with, and all the ones close enough to throw money at that you don't interact with, and donating most of your disposable income to charity, etc., then you don't get to tell someone that their choice of how to spend their money is wrong.

    Folks that say this are actually falling into the social shame game that they claim doesn't exist. Why do you tip your server and not all the servers, busboys, cooks, you see? It's because you want your fancy good (opposite of shame) feeling for supporting the income of somebody that serves you. Heck, you could support the workers more by just going in, handing them a tip, and walking out. No need to take up their time with actually ordering the food.

    Ugh, telling people they shouldn't eat out if they can't afford to tip is no different than telling folks on WIC that they should only be able to buy dry rice and beans. Yes, it's a societal norm that the tip is included, but it's also a commonly held belief that poor people shouldn't have anything nice. Both ideas suck.

    Uh...yes it is. When a person buys a tiny bit nicer food with their SNAP benefits or whatever they aren't also shorting a worker of their living wage. If you choose to dine in an establishment where you know the waitstaff's living is dependent on tips (which is generally not the case for cooks) and you choose not to tip you are not fighting the system you are just assuring the person that served you isn't going to receive fair compensation for their labor.

    Systemic change is not achieved by individual choice. We have an ocean filled with plastic garbage that is proof of that.

    I mean the workers at the grocery you go to are probably minimum-wage. Maybe you should be tipping them, and don't go there if you can't!

    People at the grocery store aren't working in service of me like waitstaff. Also, generally grocery stores pay quite well and offer benefits.

    OK, so if you can't afford to tip your grocery bagger, then DON"T GO THERE!

    I genuinely don't understand how this is a coherent response to what I posted.

    The box boy (or girl) is working directly in service of you to bag your groceries or grab an item you forgot. Starting pay at a grocery store is almost invariably minimum wage or at best a quarter above it. Union dues will be taken out of it if it's a union store. You'll spend some amount of time there depending on if you want to move up and if there is a position to move up to.

    Should the box boy get tipped to bag your groceries and take your carts back from to the store?

    Honestly, I think the idea that retail workers get minimum wage isn't accurate. At least not in my experience.

    I am being specific here. I was a box boy. I spent...I don't recall how long at this point as a box boy. 6 months maybe. I was paid damn close to minimum wage. I paid union dues. I did not receive tips. I busted my ass hauling carts back into the store. I bagged like a mofo because that is how I do. What is the special essence that makes a server worthy of a tip but a box boy not worthy of a tip?

    Nothing.

    But this whataboutism isn't exactly useful.

    This isn't whataboutism, it is a specific counterexample. If you argument is "we should tip low paid workers because they deserve the additional payment for their labor" then "but you don't tip the vast majority of low wage workers" is a solid argument. If your answer is to tip all low wage workers, then yeah, you have eliminated the counterargument and bringing it up would be whataboutism. However, I haven't seen a call for that, I've only seen calls to continue tipping the folks that have over time become commonplace to tip, based only on the argument present here

    My specific answer to you is that server has to deal with a metric ton more bullshit than you do as a box-person. They need to be the link between front and back of the house, manage and coordinate right any mistakes that are made and deal with the wild personalities and proclivities of both their customers and the cooks.

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    amateurhouramateurhour One day I'll be professionalhour The woods somewhere in TennesseeRegistered User regular
    cncaudata wrote: »
    Orca wrote: »
    Orca wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    Butters wrote: »
    cncaudata wrote: »
    If some folks are arguing that the business paying their workers $18/hour, giving them benefits, and not allowing tips is the bad guy because some workers might have made more money from tips... I don't know what to do.

    Like, I am way better off if men keep getting paid more than women for the same work. That doesn't mean we should keep doing it.

    Put your actual prices on the menu, pay your workers the actual money they're going to earn, and everyone can apply for the job or order the food with full knowledge of the transactions being made. If $18 isn't enough for that work, then workers will go get other jobs, etc.

    I'd also like to address a thread of this conversation that popped up again, wherein people are told that they are dicks for not tipping, because tipping is a good thing to do to provide income for workers that are underpaid by their employers. Um, no. You don't get to tell people they're dicks for making a different choice in how to spend their charity dollars. Money is fungible, and all that tip money you feel so great about handing out isn't necessarily doing what you want, and it's certainly not sure to be doing more good than any other charitable use of that money. The arguments been made over and over, but it's still valid. If you aren't tipping every minimum wage worker you interact with, and all the ones close enough to throw money at that you don't interact with, and donating most of your disposable income to charity, etc., then you don't get to tell someone that their choice of how to spend their money is wrong.

    Folks that say this are actually falling into the social shame game that they claim doesn't exist. Why do you tip your server and not all the servers, busboys, cooks, you see? It's because you want your fancy good (opposite of shame) feeling for supporting the income of somebody that serves you. Heck, you could support the workers more by just going in, handing them a tip, and walking out. No need to take up their time with actually ordering the food.

    Ugh, telling people they shouldn't eat out if they can't afford to tip is no different than telling folks on WIC that they should only be able to buy dry rice and beans. Yes, it's a societal norm that the tip is included, but it's also a commonly held belief that poor people shouldn't have anything nice. Both ideas suck.

    Uh...yes it is. When a person buys a tiny bit nicer food with their SNAP benefits or whatever they aren't also shorting a worker of their living wage. If you choose to dine in an establishment where you know the waitstaff's living is dependent on tips (which is generally not the case for cooks) and you choose not to tip you are not fighting the system you are just assuring the person that served you isn't going to receive fair compensation for their labor.

    Systemic change is not achieved by individual choice. We have an ocean filled with plastic garbage that is proof of that.

    I mean the workers at the grocery you go to are probably minimum-wage. Maybe you should be tipping them, and don't go there if you can't!

    People at the grocery store aren't working in service of me like waitstaff. Also, generally grocery stores pay quite well and offer benefits.

    OK, so if you can't afford to tip your grocery bagger, then DON"T GO THERE!

    I genuinely don't understand how this is a coherent response to what I posted.

    The box boy (or girl) is working directly in service of you to bag your groceries or grab an item you forgot. Starting pay at a grocery store is almost invariably minimum wage or at best a quarter above it. Union dues will be taken out of it if it's a union store. You'll spend some amount of time there depending on if you want to move up and if there is a position to move up to.

    Should the box boy get tipped to bag your groceries and take your carts back from to the store?

    Honestly, I think the idea that retail workers get minimum wage isn't accurate. At least not in my experience.

    I am being specific here. I was a box boy. I spent...I don't recall how long at this point as a box boy. 6 months maybe. I was paid damn close to minimum wage. I paid union dues. I did not receive tips. I busted my ass hauling carts back into the store. I bagged like a mofo because that is how I do. What is the special essence that makes a server worthy of a tip but a box boy not worthy of a tip?

    Nothing.

    But this whataboutism isn't exactly useful.

    This isn't whataboutism, it is a specific counterexample. If you argument is "we should tip low paid workers because they deserve the additional payment for their labor" then "but you don't tip the vast majority of low wage workers" is a solid argument. If your answer is to tip all low wage workers, then yeah, you have eliminated the counterargument and bringing it up would be whataboutism. However, I haven't seen a call for that, I've only seen calls to continue tipping the folks that have over time become commonplace to tip, based only on the argument present here

    My specific answer to you is that server has to deal with a metric ton more bullshit than you do as a box-person. They need to be the link between front and back of the house, manage and coordinate right any mistakes that are made and deal with the wild personalities and proclivities of both their customers and the cooks.

    because no Karen has ever approached a lowly box person and asked for impossible tasks, ala John Wick

    are YOU on the beer list?
  • Options
    SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Fuck Warren Ellis Registered User regular
    cncaudata wrote: »
    Orca wrote: »
    Orca wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    Butters wrote: »
    cncaudata wrote: »
    If some folks are arguing that the business paying their workers $18/hour, giving them benefits, and not allowing tips is the bad guy because some workers might have made more money from tips... I don't know what to do.

    Like, I am way better off if men keep getting paid more than women for the same work. That doesn't mean we should keep doing it.

    Put your actual prices on the menu, pay your workers the actual money they're going to earn, and everyone can apply for the job or order the food with full knowledge of the transactions being made. If $18 isn't enough for that work, then workers will go get other jobs, etc.

    I'd also like to address a thread of this conversation that popped up again, wherein people are told that they are dicks for not tipping, because tipping is a good thing to do to provide income for workers that are underpaid by their employers. Um, no. You don't get to tell people they're dicks for making a different choice in how to spend their charity dollars. Money is fungible, and all that tip money you feel so great about handing out isn't necessarily doing what you want, and it's certainly not sure to be doing more good than any other charitable use of that money. The arguments been made over and over, but it's still valid. If you aren't tipping every minimum wage worker you interact with, and all the ones close enough to throw money at that you don't interact with, and donating most of your disposable income to charity, etc., then you don't get to tell someone that their choice of how to spend their money is wrong.

    Folks that say this are actually falling into the social shame game that they claim doesn't exist. Why do you tip your server and not all the servers, busboys, cooks, you see? It's because you want your fancy good (opposite of shame) feeling for supporting the income of somebody that serves you. Heck, you could support the workers more by just going in, handing them a tip, and walking out. No need to take up their time with actually ordering the food.

    Ugh, telling people they shouldn't eat out if they can't afford to tip is no different than telling folks on WIC that they should only be able to buy dry rice and beans. Yes, it's a societal norm that the tip is included, but it's also a commonly held belief that poor people shouldn't have anything nice. Both ideas suck.

    Uh...yes it is. When a person buys a tiny bit nicer food with their SNAP benefits or whatever they aren't also shorting a worker of their living wage. If you choose to dine in an establishment where you know the waitstaff's living is dependent on tips (which is generally not the case for cooks) and you choose not to tip you are not fighting the system you are just assuring the person that served you isn't going to receive fair compensation for their labor.

    Systemic change is not achieved by individual choice. We have an ocean filled with plastic garbage that is proof of that.

    I mean the workers at the grocery you go to are probably minimum-wage. Maybe you should be tipping them, and don't go there if you can't!

    People at the grocery store aren't working in service of me like waitstaff. Also, generally grocery stores pay quite well and offer benefits.

    OK, so if you can't afford to tip your grocery bagger, then DON"T GO THERE!

    I genuinely don't understand how this is a coherent response to what I posted.

    The box boy (or girl) is working directly in service of you to bag your groceries or grab an item you forgot. Starting pay at a grocery store is almost invariably minimum wage or at best a quarter above it. Union dues will be taken out of it if it's a union store. You'll spend some amount of time there depending on if you want to move up and if there is a position to move up to.

    Should the box boy get tipped to bag your groceries and take your carts back from to the store?

    Honestly, I think the idea that retail workers get minimum wage isn't accurate. At least not in my experience.

    I am being specific here. I was a box boy. I spent...I don't recall how long at this point as a box boy. 6 months maybe. I was paid damn close to minimum wage. I paid union dues. I did not receive tips. I busted my ass hauling carts back into the store. I bagged like a mofo because that is how I do. What is the special essence that makes a server worthy of a tip but a box boy not worthy of a tip?

    Nothing.

    But this whataboutism isn't exactly useful.

    This isn't whataboutism, it is a specific counterexample. If you argument is "we should tip low paid workers because they deserve the additional payment for their labor" then "but you don't tip the vast majority of low wage workers" is a solid argument. If your answer is to tip all low wage workers, then yeah, you have eliminated the counterargument and bringing it up would be whataboutism. However, I haven't seen a call for that, I've only seen calls to continue tipping the folks that have over time become commonplace to tip, based only on the argument present here

    My specific answer to you is that server has to deal with a metric ton more bullshit than you do as a box-person. They need to be the link between front and back of the house, manage and coordinate right any mistakes that are made and deal with the wild personalities and proclivities of both their customers and the cooks.

    because no Karen has ever approached a lowly box person and asked for impossible tasks, ala John Wick

    Not even in the same universe as being a server. I absolutely promise you that.

  • Options
    ronzoronzo Registered User regular
    cncaudata wrote: »
    Orca wrote: »
    Orca wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    Butters wrote: »
    cncaudata wrote: »
    If some folks are arguing that the business paying their workers $18/hour, giving them benefits, and not allowing tips is the bad guy because some workers might have made more money from tips... I don't know what to do.

    Like, I am way better off if men keep getting paid more than women for the same work. That doesn't mean we should keep doing it.

    Put your actual prices on the menu, pay your workers the actual money they're going to earn, and everyone can apply for the job or order the food with full knowledge of the transactions being made. If $18 isn't enough for that work, then workers will go get other jobs, etc.

    I'd also like to address a thread of this conversation that popped up again, wherein people are told that they are dicks for not tipping, because tipping is a good thing to do to provide income for workers that are underpaid by their employers. Um, no. You don't get to tell people they're dicks for making a different choice in how to spend their charity dollars. Money is fungible, and all that tip money you feel so great about handing out isn't necessarily doing what you want, and it's certainly not sure to be doing more good than any other charitable use of that money. The arguments been made over and over, but it's still valid. If you aren't tipping every minimum wage worker you interact with, and all the ones close enough to throw money at that you don't interact with, and donating most of your disposable income to charity, etc., then you don't get to tell someone that their choice of how to spend their money is wrong.

    Folks that say this are actually falling into the social shame game that they claim doesn't exist. Why do you tip your server and not all the servers, busboys, cooks, you see? It's because you want your fancy good (opposite of shame) feeling for supporting the income of somebody that serves you. Heck, you could support the workers more by just going in, handing them a tip, and walking out. No need to take up their time with actually ordering the food.

    Ugh, telling people they shouldn't eat out if they can't afford to tip is no different than telling folks on WIC that they should only be able to buy dry rice and beans. Yes, it's a societal norm that the tip is included, but it's also a commonly held belief that poor people shouldn't have anything nice. Both ideas suck.

    Uh...yes it is. When a person buys a tiny bit nicer food with their SNAP benefits or whatever they aren't also shorting a worker of their living wage. If you choose to dine in an establishment where you know the waitstaff's living is dependent on tips (which is generally not the case for cooks) and you choose not to tip you are not fighting the system you are just assuring the person that served you isn't going to receive fair compensation for their labor.

    Systemic change is not achieved by individual choice. We have an ocean filled with plastic garbage that is proof of that.

    I mean the workers at the grocery you go to are probably minimum-wage. Maybe you should be tipping them, and don't go there if you can't!

    People at the grocery store aren't working in service of me like waitstaff. Also, generally grocery stores pay quite well and offer benefits.

    OK, so if you can't afford to tip your grocery bagger, then DON"T GO THERE!

    I genuinely don't understand how this is a coherent response to what I posted.

    The box boy (or girl) is working directly in service of you to bag your groceries or grab an item you forgot. Starting pay at a grocery store is almost invariably minimum wage or at best a quarter above it. Union dues will be taken out of it if it's a union store. You'll spend some amount of time there depending on if you want to move up and if there is a position to move up to.

    Should the box boy get tipped to bag your groceries and take your carts back from to the store?

    Honestly, I think the idea that retail workers get minimum wage isn't accurate. At least not in my experience.

    I am being specific here. I was a box boy. I spent...I don't recall how long at this point as a box boy. 6 months maybe. I was paid damn close to minimum wage. I paid union dues. I did not receive tips. I busted my ass hauling carts back into the store. I bagged like a mofo because that is how I do. What is the special essence that makes a server worthy of a tip but a box boy not worthy of a tip?

    Nothing.

    But this whataboutism isn't exactly useful.

    This isn't whataboutism, it is a specific counterexample. If you argument is "we should tip low paid workers because they deserve the additional payment for their labor" then "but you don't tip the vast majority of low wage workers" is a solid argument. If your answer is to tip all low wage workers, then yeah, you have eliminated the counterargument and bringing it up would be whataboutism. However, I haven't seen a call for that, I've only seen calls to continue tipping the folks that have over time become commonplace to tip, based only on the argument present here

    My specific answer to you is that server has to deal with a metric ton more bullshit than you do as a box-person. They need to be the link between front and back of the house, manage and coordinate right any mistakes that are made and deal with the wild personalities and proclivities of both their customers and the cooks.

    Congrats, you basically just described all of retail, the vast majority of which don’t get tipped either.

  • Options
    amateurhouramateurhour One day I'll be professionalhour The woods somewhere in TennesseeRegistered User regular
    edited April 2023
    idk I did both for a fair amount of time and I (personally) disagree, but that's just opinion.

    edit cause I didn't quote: I disagree that waitstaff put up with more shit than retail, I think they both suck, and I think personally I had a harder time in retail re: customers and privilege

    amateurhour on
    are YOU on the beer list?
  • Options
    OrcaOrca Also known as Espressosaurus WrexRegistered User regular
    edited April 2023
    ronzo wrote: »
    My specific answer to you is that server has to deal with a metric ton more bullshit than you do as a box-person. They need to be the link between front and back of the house, manage and coordinate right any mistakes that are made and deal with the wild personalities and proclivities of both their customers and the cooks.

    Congrats, you basically just described all of retail, the vast majority of which don’t get tipped either.

    Back when Toys 'R Us was still around, my friends could tell you stories about the holidays.

    Orca on
  • Options
    ronzoronzo Registered User regular
    Trying to say the average waitstaff puts up with more bullshit than the average customer facing retail worker is an ex post facto justification for tipping one group over the other.

  • Options
    SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Fuck Warren Ellis Registered User regular
    ronzo wrote: »
    cncaudata wrote: »
    Orca wrote: »
    Orca wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    Butters wrote: »
    cncaudata wrote: »
    If some folks are arguing that the business paying their workers $18/hour, giving them benefits, and not allowing tips is the bad guy because some workers might have made more money from tips... I don't know what to do.

    Like, I am way better off if men keep getting paid more than women for the same work. That doesn't mean we should keep doing it.

    Put your actual prices on the menu, pay your workers the actual money they're going to earn, and everyone can apply for the job or order the food with full knowledge of the transactions being made. If $18 isn't enough for that work, then workers will go get other jobs, etc.

    I'd also like to address a thread of this conversation that popped up again, wherein people are told that they are dicks for not tipping, because tipping is a good thing to do to provide income for workers that are underpaid by their employers. Um, no. You don't get to tell people they're dicks for making a different choice in how to spend their charity dollars. Money is fungible, and all that tip money you feel so great about handing out isn't necessarily doing what you want, and it's certainly not sure to be doing more good than any other charitable use of that money. The arguments been made over and over, but it's still valid. If you aren't tipping every minimum wage worker you interact with, and all the ones close enough to throw money at that you don't interact with, and donating most of your disposable income to charity, etc., then you don't get to tell someone that their choice of how to spend their money is wrong.

    Folks that say this are actually falling into the social shame game that they claim doesn't exist. Why do you tip your server and not all the servers, busboys, cooks, you see? It's because you want your fancy good (opposite of shame) feeling for supporting the income of somebody that serves you. Heck, you could support the workers more by just going in, handing them a tip, and walking out. No need to take up their time with actually ordering the food.

    Ugh, telling people they shouldn't eat out if they can't afford to tip is no different than telling folks on WIC that they should only be able to buy dry rice and beans. Yes, it's a societal norm that the tip is included, but it's also a commonly held belief that poor people shouldn't have anything nice. Both ideas suck.

    Uh...yes it is. When a person buys a tiny bit nicer food with their SNAP benefits or whatever they aren't also shorting a worker of their living wage. If you choose to dine in an establishment where you know the waitstaff's living is dependent on tips (which is generally not the case for cooks) and you choose not to tip you are not fighting the system you are just assuring the person that served you isn't going to receive fair compensation for their labor.

    Systemic change is not achieved by individual choice. We have an ocean filled with plastic garbage that is proof of that.

    I mean the workers at the grocery you go to are probably minimum-wage. Maybe you should be tipping them, and don't go there if you can't!

    People at the grocery store aren't working in service of me like waitstaff. Also, generally grocery stores pay quite well and offer benefits.

    OK, so if you can't afford to tip your grocery bagger, then DON"T GO THERE!

    I genuinely don't understand how this is a coherent response to what I posted.

    The box boy (or girl) is working directly in service of you to bag your groceries or grab an item you forgot. Starting pay at a grocery store is almost invariably minimum wage or at best a quarter above it. Union dues will be taken out of it if it's a union store. You'll spend some amount of time there depending on if you want to move up and if there is a position to move up to.

    Should the box boy get tipped to bag your groceries and take your carts back from to the store?

    Honestly, I think the idea that retail workers get minimum wage isn't accurate. At least not in my experience.

    I am being specific here. I was a box boy. I spent...I don't recall how long at this point as a box boy. 6 months maybe. I was paid damn close to minimum wage. I paid union dues. I did not receive tips. I busted my ass hauling carts back into the store. I bagged like a mofo because that is how I do. What is the special essence that makes a server worthy of a tip but a box boy not worthy of a tip?

    Nothing.

    But this whataboutism isn't exactly useful.

    This isn't whataboutism, it is a specific counterexample. If you argument is "we should tip low paid workers because they deserve the additional payment for their labor" then "but you don't tip the vast majority of low wage workers" is a solid argument. If your answer is to tip all low wage workers, then yeah, you have eliminated the counterargument and bringing it up would be whataboutism. However, I haven't seen a call for that, I've only seen calls to continue tipping the folks that have over time become commonplace to tip, based only on the argument present here

    My specific answer to you is that server has to deal with a metric ton more bullshit than you do as a box-person. They need to be the link between front and back of the house, manage and coordinate right any mistakes that are made and deal with the wild personalities and proclivities of both their customers and the cooks.

    Congrats, you basically just described all of retail, the vast majority of which don’t get tipped either.

    Nope. Being a waiter is far more complicated. In retail you need a passing knowledge of products and how to run a POS. The hardest thing you'll have to do is deal with a shitty customer and process a return.

    Being a waiter you need to know the whole menu, have an opinion about everything on it, know what the major ingredients are in any dish, card people for alcohol, deal with TABLES of shitty people, manage your colleagues tables when they are on breaks, broker communication between front and back of house, do kitchen prep work, do dining service prep work (rollups,etc), clean the restaurant, etc etc.

    You people who think any customer facing job is as difficult as being a waiter are fucking fooling and telling on yourselves. Being a waiter is skilled labour that is frequently underpaid. I'd even argue if they were granted livable wages they STILL deserve tips.

  • Options
    ronzoronzo Registered User regular
    If you think that’s all you have to do to work retail, I have no idea how to rationally engage you on this topic.

  • Options
    amateurhouramateurhour One day I'll be professionalhour The woods somewhere in TennesseeRegistered User regular
    Yeah that was kind of offensive because I've been asked specifically about paper in a Goddamn Patrick Bateman level of intensity that equaled someone not liking my recommendation for an Applebee's Steak

    are YOU on the beer list?
  • Options
    SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Fuck Warren Ellis Registered User regular
    I'm basing that on working retail for some 5+ years. I guess occasionally you had to run inventory as well? What is so glaringly missing that I didn't cover? Considering all of the work I highlighted that a server does, do you think your average retail associates' workload compares?

  • Options
    MarathonMarathon Registered User regular
    edited April 2023
    ronzo wrote: »
    cncaudata wrote: »
    Orca wrote: »
    Orca wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    Butters wrote: »
    cncaudata wrote: »
    If some folks are arguing that the business paying their workers $18/hour, giving them benefits, and not allowing tips is the bad guy because some workers might have made more money from tips... I don't know what to do.

    Like, I am way better off if men keep getting paid more than women for the same work. That doesn't mean we should keep doing it.

    Put your actual prices on the menu, pay your workers the actual money they're going to earn, and everyone can apply for the job or order the food with full knowledge of the transactions being made. If $18 isn't enough for that work, then workers will go get other jobs, etc.

    I'd also like to address a thread of this conversation that popped up again, wherein people are told that they are dicks for not tipping, because tipping is a good thing to do to provide income for workers that are underpaid by their employers. Um, no. You don't get to tell people they're dicks for making a different choice in how to spend their charity dollars. Money is fungible, and all that tip money you feel so great about handing out isn't necessarily doing what you want, and it's certainly not sure to be doing more good than any other charitable use of that money. The arguments been made over and over, but it's still valid. If you aren't tipping every minimum wage worker you interact with, and all the ones close enough to throw money at that you don't interact with, and donating most of your disposable income to charity, etc., then you don't get to tell someone that their choice of how to spend their money is wrong.

    Folks that say this are actually falling into the social shame game that they claim doesn't exist. Why do you tip your server and not all the servers, busboys, cooks, you see? It's because you want your fancy good (opposite of shame) feeling for supporting the income of somebody that serves you. Heck, you could support the workers more by just going in, handing them a tip, and walking out. No need to take up their time with actually ordering the food.

    Ugh, telling people they shouldn't eat out if they can't afford to tip is no different than telling folks on WIC that they should only be able to buy dry rice and beans. Yes, it's a societal norm that the tip is included, but it's also a commonly held belief that poor people shouldn't have anything nice. Both ideas suck.

    Uh...yes it is. When a person buys a tiny bit nicer food with their SNAP benefits or whatever they aren't also shorting a worker of their living wage. If you choose to dine in an establishment where you know the waitstaff's living is dependent on tips (which is generally not the case for cooks) and you choose not to tip you are not fighting the system you are just assuring the person that served you isn't going to receive fair compensation for their labor.

    Systemic change is not achieved by individual choice. We have an ocean filled with plastic garbage that is proof of that.

    I mean the workers at the grocery you go to are probably minimum-wage. Maybe you should be tipping them, and don't go there if you can't!

    People at the grocery store aren't working in service of me like waitstaff. Also, generally grocery stores pay quite well and offer benefits.

    OK, so if you can't afford to tip your grocery bagger, then DON"T GO THERE!

    I genuinely don't understand how this is a coherent response to what I posted.

    The box boy (or girl) is working directly in service of you to bag your groceries or grab an item you forgot. Starting pay at a grocery store is almost invariably minimum wage or at best a quarter above it. Union dues will be taken out of it if it's a union store. You'll spend some amount of time there depending on if you want to move up and if there is a position to move up to.

    Should the box boy get tipped to bag your groceries and take your carts back from to the store?

    Honestly, I think the idea that retail workers get minimum wage isn't accurate. At least not in my experience.

    I am being specific here. I was a box boy. I spent...I don't recall how long at this point as a box boy. 6 months maybe. I was paid damn close to minimum wage. I paid union dues. I did not receive tips. I busted my ass hauling carts back into the store. I bagged like a mofo because that is how I do. What is the special essence that makes a server worthy of a tip but a box boy not worthy of a tip?

    Nothing.

    But this whataboutism isn't exactly useful.

    This isn't whataboutism, it is a specific counterexample. If you argument is "we should tip low paid workers because they deserve the additional payment for their labor" then "but you don't tip the vast majority of low wage workers" is a solid argument. If your answer is to tip all low wage workers, then yeah, you have eliminated the counterargument and bringing it up would be whataboutism. However, I haven't seen a call for that, I've only seen calls to continue tipping the folks that have over time become commonplace to tip, based only on the argument present here

    My specific answer to you is that server has to deal with a metric ton more bullshit than you do as a box-person. They need to be the link between front and back of the house, manage and coordinate right any mistakes that are made and deal with the wild personalities and proclivities of both their customers and the cooks.

    Congrats, you basically just described all of retail, the vast majority of which don’t get tipped either.

    Nope. Being a waiter is far more complicated. In retail you need a passing knowledge of products and how to run a POS. The hardest thing you'll have to do is deal with a shitty customer and process a return.

    Being a waiter you need to know the whole menu, have an opinion about everything on it, know what the major ingredients are in any dish, card people for alcohol, deal with TABLES of shitty people, manage your colleagues tables when they are on breaks, broker communication between front and back of house, do kitchen prep work, do dining service prep work (rollups,etc), clean the restaurant, etc etc.

    You people who think any customer facing job is as difficult as being a waiter are fucking fooling and telling on yourselves. Being a waiter is skilled labour that is frequently underpaid. I'd even argue if they were granted livable wages they STILL deserve tips.

    Not to pick this post apart line by line, but you’re really diminishing the work retail employees do and overstating the work a waiter does.

    As a former waiter I didn’t know the full menu at all and I had a few favorites I could recommend if asked. None of my coworkers had an opinion about every dish on the menu.

    Marathon on
  • Options
    SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Fuck Warren Ellis Registered User regular
    Orca wrote: »
    ronzo wrote: »
    My specific answer to you is that server has to deal with a metric ton more bullshit than you do as a box-person. They need to be the link between front and back of the house, manage and coordinate right any mistakes that are made and deal with the wild personalities and proclivities of both their customers and the cooks.

    Congrats, you basically just described all of retail, the vast majority of which don’t get tipped either.

    Back when Toys 'R Us was still around, my friends could tell you stories about the holidays.

    Ah yes, the holidays, the well known dead time for restaurants and bars worldwide.

    Those same assholes that are at Toys r Us are also at the restaurants - except there they are hungry and drunk.

  • Options
    DoodmannDoodmann Registered User regular
    Oh good we're back to infighting over who's shit job was the worst.

    Whippy wrote: »
    nope nope nope nope abort abort talk about anime
    I like to ART
  • Options
    ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    Okay so what I'm hearing is that retail tipping should start at 10% instead of 20%? Maybe cap out at 22% instead of 30? Or just straight half it and call it a day?

    Because even if I accept that Servers/Waitstaff win the gold in the Shitty Job Olympics, I'm surprised the follow up assessment is that the Silver or Bronze tier folks get nothing.

    Surely their work, labor, effort, time, and expertise while handling some bullshit (if not the exact same bullshit) is worthy of a gratuity, if rounded down from the top tier.

    Or should we see it as more of a flat rate $5 in hand for the bellhop/concierge?

    Even if I accept that retail staff don't qualify for the same extensive bullshit Servers do, that doesn't preclude them being tipped somewhere on the sliding scale, flat rate or percentage, as appropriate.

    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
  • Options
    ronzoronzo Registered User regular
    I'm basing that on working retail for some 5+ years. I guess occasionally you had to run inventory as well? What is so glaringly missing that I didn't cover? Considering all of the work I highlighted that a server does, do you think your average retail associates' workload compares?

    Yeah I do dude or I wouldn’t be sitting here disagreeing with you, next time ask a less obvious question.

  • Options
    ronzoronzo Registered User regular
    Doodmann wrote: »
    Oh good we're back to infighting over who's shit job was the worst.

    I’m saying they’re closer to equivalent than not, but fuck worker solidarity if tips are in play I guess.

  • Options
    SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Fuck Warren Ellis Registered User regular
    Marathon wrote: »
    ronzo wrote: »
    cncaudata wrote: »
    Orca wrote: »
    Orca wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    Butters wrote: »
    cncaudata wrote: »
    If some folks are arguing that the business paying their workers $18/hour, giving them benefits, and not allowing tips is the bad guy because some workers might have made more money from tips... I don't know what to do.

    Like, I am way better off if men keep getting paid more than women for the same work. That doesn't mean we should keep doing it.

    Put your actual prices on the menu, pay your workers the actual money they're going to earn, and everyone can apply for the job or order the food with full knowledge of the transactions being made. If $18 isn't enough for that work, then workers will go get other jobs, etc.

    I'd also like to address a thread of this conversation that popped up again, wherein people are told that they are dicks for not tipping, because tipping is a good thing to do to provide income for workers that are underpaid by their employers. Um, no. You don't get to tell people they're dicks for making a different choice in how to spend their charity dollars. Money is fungible, and all that tip money you feel so great about handing out isn't necessarily doing what you want, and it's certainly not sure to be doing more good than any other charitable use of that money. The arguments been made over and over, but it's still valid. If you aren't tipping every minimum wage worker you interact with, and all the ones close enough to throw money at that you don't interact with, and donating most of your disposable income to charity, etc., then you don't get to tell someone that their choice of how to spend their money is wrong.

    Folks that say this are actually falling into the social shame game that they claim doesn't exist. Why do you tip your server and not all the servers, busboys, cooks, you see? It's because you want your fancy good (opposite of shame) feeling for supporting the income of somebody that serves you. Heck, you could support the workers more by just going in, handing them a tip, and walking out. No need to take up their time with actually ordering the food.

    Ugh, telling people they shouldn't eat out if they can't afford to tip is no different than telling folks on WIC that they should only be able to buy dry rice and beans. Yes, it's a societal norm that the tip is included, but it's also a commonly held belief that poor people shouldn't have anything nice. Both ideas suck.

    Uh...yes it is. When a person buys a tiny bit nicer food with their SNAP benefits or whatever they aren't also shorting a worker of their living wage. If you choose to dine in an establishment where you know the waitstaff's living is dependent on tips (which is generally not the case for cooks) and you choose not to tip you are not fighting the system you are just assuring the person that served you isn't going to receive fair compensation for their labor.

    Systemic change is not achieved by individual choice. We have an ocean filled with plastic garbage that is proof of that.

    I mean the workers at the grocery you go to are probably minimum-wage. Maybe you should be tipping them, and don't go there if you can't!

    People at the grocery store aren't working in service of me like waitstaff. Also, generally grocery stores pay quite well and offer benefits.

    OK, so if you can't afford to tip your grocery bagger, then DON"T GO THERE!

    I genuinely don't understand how this is a coherent response to what I posted.

    The box boy (or girl) is working directly in service of you to bag your groceries or grab an item you forgot. Starting pay at a grocery store is almost invariably minimum wage or at best a quarter above it. Union dues will be taken out of it if it's a union store. You'll spend some amount of time there depending on if you want to move up and if there is a position to move up to.

    Should the box boy get tipped to bag your groceries and take your carts back from to the store?

    Honestly, I think the idea that retail workers get minimum wage isn't accurate. At least not in my experience.

    I am being specific here. I was a box boy. I spent...I don't recall how long at this point as a box boy. 6 months maybe. I was paid damn close to minimum wage. I paid union dues. I did not receive tips. I busted my ass hauling carts back into the store. I bagged like a mofo because that is how I do. What is the special essence that makes a server worthy of a tip but a box boy not worthy of a tip?

    Nothing.

    But this whataboutism isn't exactly useful.

    This isn't whataboutism, it is a specific counterexample. If you argument is "we should tip low paid workers because they deserve the additional payment for their labor" then "but you don't tip the vast majority of low wage workers" is a solid argument. If your answer is to tip all low wage workers, then yeah, you have eliminated the counterargument and bringing it up would be whataboutism. However, I haven't seen a call for that, I've only seen calls to continue tipping the folks that have over time become commonplace to tip, based only on the argument present here

    My specific answer to you is that server has to deal with a metric ton more bullshit than you do as a box-person. They need to be the link between front and back of the house, manage and coordinate right any mistakes that are made and deal with the wild personalities and proclivities of both their customers and the cooks.

    Congrats, you basically just described all of retail, the vast majority of which don’t get tipped either.

    Nope. Being a waiter is far more complicated. In retail you need a passing knowledge of products and how to run a POS. The hardest thing you'll have to do is deal with a shitty customer and process a return.

    Being a waiter you need to know the whole menu, have an opinion about everything on it, know what the major ingredients are in any dish, card people for alcohol, deal with TABLES of shitty people, manage your colleagues tables when they are on breaks, broker communication between front and back of house, do kitchen prep work, do dining service prep work (rollups,etc), clean the restaurant, etc etc.

    You people who think any customer facing job is as difficult as being a waiter are fucking fooling and telling on yourselves. Being a waiter is skilled labour that is frequently underpaid. I'd even argue if they were granted livable wages they STILL deserve tips.

    Not to pick this post apart line by line, but you’re really diminishing the work retail employees do and overstating the work a waiter does.

    As a former waiter I didn’t know the full menu at all and I had a few favorites I could recommend if asked. None of my coworkers had an opinion about every dish on the menu.

    Ok cool. Every restaurant/hotel I worked at required it. So I guess we're even?

    Both are shitty jobs. Both are jobs that I held for a long ass time. From my experience being a waiter was FAR more involved than doing any retail work in either the clothing stores, oddities/headshop, and Blockbuster video where I worked.

  • Options
    HefflingHeffling No Pic EverRegistered User regular
    I'm basing that on working retail for some 5+ years. I guess occasionally you had to run inventory as well? What is so glaringly missing that I didn't cover? Considering all of the work I highlighted that a server does, do you think your average retail associates' workload compares?

    Man, go the job thread in SE++ and read about some of the shit Brainleech deals with working at Wal-Mart. Bloody fingers and hands from packing away frozen foods all night, being required to work overtime and getting yelled at for working overtime at the same time.

    Comparing who has things worse, servers or retail, is like comparing who has the worst case of cancer. Even if you win, it's still cancer.

  • Options
    Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    Yeah retail workers deserve more money. Dunno why on earth anyone would use that as any kind of argument against giving waiters more money.

    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
  • Options
    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited April 2023
    Doodmann wrote: »
    Oh good we're back to infighting over who's shit job was the worst.

    As somebody who did plenty of time in retail, FOH, and BOH imma chime in and say it allll sucks.

    My least favorite was working catalog desk at JC Penney though. So many bored, entitled walking corpses who needed me to have strong opinions and comprehensive knowledge about the curtains we carried.

    $7.50 an hour. I was expected to wear a dress shirt and tie.

    mcdermott on
  • Options
    MarathonMarathon Registered User regular
    edited April 2023
    Marathon wrote: »
    ronzo wrote: »
    cncaudata wrote: »
    Orca wrote: »
    Orca wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    Butters wrote: »
    cncaudata wrote: »
    If some folks are arguing that the business paying their workers $18/hour, giving them benefits, and not allowing tips is the bad guy because some workers might have made more money from tips... I don't know what to do.

    Like, I am way better off if men keep getting paid more than women for the same work. That doesn't mean we should keep doing it.

    Put your actual prices on the menu, pay your workers the actual money they're going to earn, and everyone can apply for the job or order the food with full knowledge of the transactions being made. If $18 isn't enough for that work, then workers will go get other jobs, etc.

    I'd also like to address a thread of this conversation that popped up again, wherein people are told that they are dicks for not tipping, because tipping is a good thing to do to provide income for workers that are underpaid by their employers. Um, no. You don't get to tell people they're dicks for making a different choice in how to spend their charity dollars. Money is fungible, and all that tip money you feel so great about handing out isn't necessarily doing what you want, and it's certainly not sure to be doing more good than any other charitable use of that money. The arguments been made over and over, but it's still valid. If you aren't tipping every minimum wage worker you interact with, and all the ones close enough to throw money at that you don't interact with, and donating most of your disposable income to charity, etc., then you don't get to tell someone that their choice of how to spend their money is wrong.

    Folks that say this are actually falling into the social shame game that they claim doesn't exist. Why do you tip your server and not all the servers, busboys, cooks, you see? It's because you want your fancy good (opposite of shame) feeling for supporting the income of somebody that serves you. Heck, you could support the workers more by just going in, handing them a tip, and walking out. No need to take up their time with actually ordering the food.

    Ugh, telling people they shouldn't eat out if they can't afford to tip is no different than telling folks on WIC that they should only be able to buy dry rice and beans. Yes, it's a societal norm that the tip is included, but it's also a commonly held belief that poor people shouldn't have anything nice. Both ideas suck.

    Uh...yes it is. When a person buys a tiny bit nicer food with their SNAP benefits or whatever they aren't also shorting a worker of their living wage. If you choose to dine in an establishment where you know the waitstaff's living is dependent on tips (which is generally not the case for cooks) and you choose not to tip you are not fighting the system you are just assuring the person that served you isn't going to receive fair compensation for their labor.

    Systemic change is not achieved by individual choice. We have an ocean filled with plastic garbage that is proof of that.

    I mean the workers at the grocery you go to are probably minimum-wage. Maybe you should be tipping them, and don't go there if you can't!

    People at the grocery store aren't working in service of me like waitstaff. Also, generally grocery stores pay quite well and offer benefits.

    OK, so if you can't afford to tip your grocery bagger, then DON"T GO THERE!

    I genuinely don't understand how this is a coherent response to what I posted.

    The box boy (or girl) is working directly in service of you to bag your groceries or grab an item you forgot. Starting pay at a grocery store is almost invariably minimum wage or at best a quarter above it. Union dues will be taken out of it if it's a union store. You'll spend some amount of time there depending on if you want to move up and if there is a position to move up to.

    Should the box boy get tipped to bag your groceries and take your carts back from to the store?

    Honestly, I think the idea that retail workers get minimum wage isn't accurate. At least not in my experience.

    I am being specific here. I was a box boy. I spent...I don't recall how long at this point as a box boy. 6 months maybe. I was paid damn close to minimum wage. I paid union dues. I did not receive tips. I busted my ass hauling carts back into the store. I bagged like a mofo because that is how I do. What is the special essence that makes a server worthy of a tip but a box boy not worthy of a tip?

    Nothing.

    But this whataboutism isn't exactly useful.

    This isn't whataboutism, it is a specific counterexample. If you argument is "we should tip low paid workers because they deserve the additional payment for their labor" then "but you don't tip the vast majority of low wage workers" is a solid argument. If your answer is to tip all low wage workers, then yeah, you have eliminated the counterargument and bringing it up would be whataboutism. However, I haven't seen a call for that, I've only seen calls to continue tipping the folks that have over time become commonplace to tip, based only on the argument present here

    My specific answer to you is that server has to deal with a metric ton more bullshit than you do as a box-person. They need to be the link between front and back of the house, manage and coordinate right any mistakes that are made and deal with the wild personalities and proclivities of both their customers and the cooks.

    Congrats, you basically just described all of retail, the vast majority of which don’t get tipped either.

    Nope. Being a waiter is far more complicated. In retail you need a passing knowledge of products and how to run a POS. The hardest thing you'll have to do is deal with a shitty customer and process a return.

    Being a waiter you need to know the whole menu, have an opinion about everything on it, know what the major ingredients are in any dish, card people for alcohol, deal with TABLES of shitty people, manage your colleagues tables when they are on breaks, broker communication between front and back of house, do kitchen prep work, do dining service prep work (rollups,etc), clean the restaurant, etc etc.

    You people who think any customer facing job is as difficult as being a waiter are fucking fooling and telling on yourselves. Being a waiter is skilled labour that is frequently underpaid. I'd even argue if they were granted livable wages they STILL deserve tips.

    Not to pick this post apart line by line, but you’re really diminishing the work retail employees do and overstating the work a waiter does.

    As a former waiter I didn’t know the full menu at all and I had a few favorites I could recommend if asked. None of my coworkers had an opinion about every dish on the menu.

    Ok cool. Every restaurant/hotel I worked at required it. So I guess we're even?

    Both are shitty jobs. Both are jobs that I held for a long ass time. From my experience being a waiter was FAR more involved than doing any retail work in either the clothing stores, oddities/headshop, and Blockbuster video where I worked.

    And my wife works retail and would be insulted at your description of the work they do. So I guess anecdotes are still not the singular for data.

    Marathon on
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    DoodmannDoodmann Registered User regular
    fd
    Heffling wrote: »
    I'm basing that on working retail for some 5+ years. I guess occasionally you had to run inventory as well? What is so glaringly missing that I didn't cover? Considering all of the work I highlighted that a server does, do you think your average retail associates' workload compares?

    Man, go the job thread in SE++ and read about some of the shit Brainleech deals with working at Wal-Mart. Bloody fingers and hands from packing away frozen foods all night, being required to work overtime and getting yelled at for working overtime at the same time.

    Comparing who has things worse, servers or retail, is like comparing who has the worst case of cancer. Even if you win, it's still cancer.

    BL is not a good example for retail work as everyone in that thread has pointed out over and over again.

    Whippy wrote: »
    nope nope nope nope abort abort talk about anime
    I like to ART
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    amateurhouramateurhour One day I'll be professionalhour The woods somewhere in TennesseeRegistered User regular
    Yeah retail workers deserve more money. Dunno why on earth anyone would use that as any kind of argument against giving waiters more money.

    That's not the argument happening right now

    are YOU on the beer list?
  • Options
    tbloxhamtbloxham Registered User regular
    ronzo wrote: »
    cncaudata wrote: »
    Orca wrote: »
    Orca wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    Butters wrote: »
    cncaudata wrote: »
    If some folks are arguing that the business paying their workers $18/hour, giving them benefits, and not allowing tips is the bad guy because some workers might have made more money from tips... I don't know what to do.

    Like, I am way better off if men keep getting paid more than women for the same work. That doesn't mean we should keep doing it.

    Put your actual prices on the menu, pay your workers the actual money they're going to earn, and everyone can apply for the job or order the food with full knowledge of the transactions being made. If $18 isn't enough for that work, then workers will go get other jobs, etc.

    I'd also like to address a thread of this conversation that popped up again, wherein people are told that they are dicks for not tipping, because tipping is a good thing to do to provide income for workers that are underpaid by their employers. Um, no. You don't get to tell people they're dicks for making a different choice in how to spend their charity dollars. Money is fungible, and all that tip money you feel so great about handing out isn't necessarily doing what you want, and it's certainly not sure to be doing more good than any other charitable use of that money. The arguments been made over and over, but it's still valid. If you aren't tipping every minimum wage worker you interact with, and all the ones close enough to throw money at that you don't interact with, and donating most of your disposable income to charity, etc., then you don't get to tell someone that their choice of how to spend their money is wrong.

    Folks that say this are actually falling into the social shame game that they claim doesn't exist. Why do you tip your server and not all the servers, busboys, cooks, you see? It's because you want your fancy good (opposite of shame) feeling for supporting the income of somebody that serves you. Heck, you could support the workers more by just going in, handing them a tip, and walking out. No need to take up their time with actually ordering the food.

    Ugh, telling people they shouldn't eat out if they can't afford to tip is no different than telling folks on WIC that they should only be able to buy dry rice and beans. Yes, it's a societal norm that the tip is included, but it's also a commonly held belief that poor people shouldn't have anything nice. Both ideas suck.

    Uh...yes it is. When a person buys a tiny bit nicer food with their SNAP benefits or whatever they aren't also shorting a worker of their living wage. If you choose to dine in an establishment where you know the waitstaff's living is dependent on tips (which is generally not the case for cooks) and you choose not to tip you are not fighting the system you are just assuring the person that served you isn't going to receive fair compensation for their labor.

    Systemic change is not achieved by individual choice. We have an ocean filled with plastic garbage that is proof of that.

    I mean the workers at the grocery you go to are probably minimum-wage. Maybe you should be tipping them, and don't go there if you can't!

    People at the grocery store aren't working in service of me like waitstaff. Also, generally grocery stores pay quite well and offer benefits.

    OK, so if you can't afford to tip your grocery bagger, then DON"T GO THERE!

    I genuinely don't understand how this is a coherent response to what I posted.

    The box boy (or girl) is working directly in service of you to bag your groceries or grab an item you forgot. Starting pay at a grocery store is almost invariably minimum wage or at best a quarter above it. Union dues will be taken out of it if it's a union store. You'll spend some amount of time there depending on if you want to move up and if there is a position to move up to.

    Should the box boy get tipped to bag your groceries and take your carts back from to the store?

    Honestly, I think the idea that retail workers get minimum wage isn't accurate. At least not in my experience.

    I am being specific here. I was a box boy. I spent...I don't recall how long at this point as a box boy. 6 months maybe. I was paid damn close to minimum wage. I paid union dues. I did not receive tips. I busted my ass hauling carts back into the store. I bagged like a mofo because that is how I do. What is the special essence that makes a server worthy of a tip but a box boy not worthy of a tip?

    Nothing.

    But this whataboutism isn't exactly useful.

    This isn't whataboutism, it is a specific counterexample. If you argument is "we should tip low paid workers because they deserve the additional payment for their labor" then "but you don't tip the vast majority of low wage workers" is a solid argument. If your answer is to tip all low wage workers, then yeah, you have eliminated the counterargument and bringing it up would be whataboutism. However, I haven't seen a call for that, I've only seen calls to continue tipping the folks that have over time become commonplace to tip, based only on the argument present here

    My specific answer to you is that server has to deal with a metric ton more bullshit than you do as a box-person. They need to be the link between front and back of the house, manage and coordinate right any mistakes that are made and deal with the wild personalities and proclivities of both their customers and the cooks.

    Congrats, you basically just described all of retail, the vast majority of which don’t get tipped either.

    Nope. Being a waiter is far more complicated. In retail you need a passing knowledge of products and how to run a POS. The hardest thing you'll have to do is deal with a shitty customer and process a return.

    Being a waiter you need to know the whole menu, have an opinion about everything on it, know what the major ingredients are in any dish, card people for alcohol, deal with TABLES of shitty people, manage your colleagues tables when they are on breaks, broker communication between front and back of house, do kitchen prep work, do dining service prep work (rollups,etc), clean the restaurant, etc etc.

    You people who think any customer facing job is as difficult as being a waiter are fucking fooling and telling on yourselves. Being a waiter is skilled labour that is frequently underpaid. I'd even argue if they were granted livable wages they STILL deserve tips.

    You seem to not know how like, other jobs work. Every job comes with a vast list of frustrating customer and co-worker derived nonsense. Nothing you list there is particularly more or less challenging that what say, someone working in a chicken farm, or someone working in a big box store deals with.

    "That is cool" - Abraham Lincoln
  • Options
    Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    Yeah retail workers deserve more money. Dunno why on earth anyone would use that as any kind of argument against giving waiters more money.

    That's not the argument happening right now

    Then beats me why we're talking about it.

    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
  • Options
    amateurhouramateurhour One day I'll be professionalhour The woods somewhere in TennesseeRegistered User regular
    Yeah retail workers deserve more money. Dunno why on earth anyone would use that as any kind of argument against giving waiters more money.

    That's not the argument happening right now

    Then beats me why we're talking about it.

    Agreed, so why did you chime in with bullshit?

    are YOU on the beer list?
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    SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Fuck Warren Ellis Registered User regular
    edited April 2023
    Forar wrote: »
    Okay so what I'm hearing is that retail tipping should start at 10% instead of 20%? Maybe cap out at 22% instead of 30? Or just straight half it and call it a day?

    Because even if I accept that Servers/Waitstaff win the gold in the Shitty Job Olympics, I'm surprised the follow up assessment is that the Silver or Bronze tier folks get nothing.

    Surely their work, labor, effort, time, and expertise while handling some bullshit (if not the exact same bullshit) is worthy of a gratuity, if rounded down from the top tier.

    Or should we see it as more of a flat rate $5 in hand for the bellhop/concierge?

    Even if I accept that retail staff don't qualify for the same extensive bullshit Servers do, that doesn't preclude them being tipped somewhere on the sliding scale, flat rate or percentage, as appropriate.

    I never did any kind of "shittiness" comparison. I said one job requires more skilled labour than the other.

    It's other folks that are conflated needing to do skilled labour with shitty labour - which is not at all the point I was making.

    edit: I guess I did say "shitty" in my last post, but that still wasn't the point I was making. All labour should have good comp. Skilled labour should have even more comp. Waiting tables is more skilled labour than working retail.

    SatanIsMyMotor on
  • Options
    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited April 2023
    Well, cool I guess that we had somebody willing to come in and actively make the “table servers deserve tips more than retail” argument, so we don’t have to pretend anymore that all low wage workers are in this together or whatever nonsense.

    I’ve heard plenty of tipped employees claim that the idea of tipping retail or counter service is absurd, mind. Like, in real life, online, in public spaces. It’s a thing. But it’s nice having a comment right here we can quote so I don’t have to prove that my real-world tipped-service friends and family who feel this way exist.

    Like it’s great we have a couple real hardliner “everything for every worker every time” commenters here. But in the real world a whole lot of tipped employees are much more “fuck you got mine” when the rubber hits the road.

    mcdermott on
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    amateurhouramateurhour One day I'll be professionalhour The woods somewhere in TennesseeRegistered User regular
    a
    Yeah retail workers deserve more money. Dunno why on earth anyone would use that as any kind of argument against giving waiters more money.

    That's not the argument happening right now

    Then beats me why we're talking about it.

    Agreed, so why did you chime in with bullshit?

    edit: this was an honest question. If I use expletives it's because I'm country. I've tried to be upfront when I'm asking a question.

    Were you just trying to shift the conversation back away from worker v. worker, or was it something else? I'm genuinely curious. Apologies if it came off otherwise. Seriously.

    are YOU on the beer list?
  • Options
    SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Fuck Warren Ellis Registered User regular
    Go off my guy.

    I'm not even sure what "all low wage workers are in this together" even means. Personally I believe in a working world that at a baseline provides a liveable wage for workers but also rewards workers for going above and beyond in terms of being proficient in their role. So if extra expectations, educational, and training requirements are helpful in a role, people with those extras should receive due-compensation for it.

    In the context of this specific thread relative to tipping - I think among the entry-level positions one can get in starting their working career, being a server is among one of the toughest and therefore certainly deserves tipping.

  • Options
    DoodmannDoodmann Registered User regular
    we might be past this point but it really grinds my gears when restaurants talk about their slim margins as an excuse for not paying anyone well, since 90% of the time they're only in that situation because they rent on commercial property is egregious.

    Whippy wrote: »
    nope nope nope nope abort abort talk about anime
    I like to ART
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    SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Fuck Warren Ellis Registered User regular
    Marathon wrote: »
    Marathon wrote: »
    ronzo wrote: »
    cncaudata wrote: »
    Orca wrote: »
    Orca wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    Butters wrote: »
    cncaudata wrote: »
    If some folks are arguing that the business paying their workers $18/hour, giving them benefits, and not allowing tips is the bad guy because some workers might have made more money from tips... I don't know what to do.

    Like, I am way better off if men keep getting paid more than women for the same work. That doesn't mean we should keep doing it.

    Put your actual prices on the menu, pay your workers the actual money they're going to earn, and everyone can apply for the job or order the food with full knowledge of the transactions being made. If $18 isn't enough for that work, then workers will go get other jobs, etc.

    I'd also like to address a thread of this conversation that popped up again, wherein people are told that they are dicks for not tipping, because tipping is a good thing to do to provide income for workers that are underpaid by their employers. Um, no. You don't get to tell people they're dicks for making a different choice in how to spend their charity dollars. Money is fungible, and all that tip money you feel so great about handing out isn't necessarily doing what you want, and it's certainly not sure to be doing more good than any other charitable use of that money. The arguments been made over and over, but it's still valid. If you aren't tipping every minimum wage worker you interact with, and all the ones close enough to throw money at that you don't interact with, and donating most of your disposable income to charity, etc., then you don't get to tell someone that their choice of how to spend their money is wrong.

    Folks that say this are actually falling into the social shame game that they claim doesn't exist. Why do you tip your server and not all the servers, busboys, cooks, you see? It's because you want your fancy good (opposite of shame) feeling for supporting the income of somebody that serves you. Heck, you could support the workers more by just going in, handing them a tip, and walking out. No need to take up their time with actually ordering the food.

    Ugh, telling people they shouldn't eat out if they can't afford to tip is no different than telling folks on WIC that they should only be able to buy dry rice and beans. Yes, it's a societal norm that the tip is included, but it's also a commonly held belief that poor people shouldn't have anything nice. Both ideas suck.

    Uh...yes it is. When a person buys a tiny bit nicer food with their SNAP benefits or whatever they aren't also shorting a worker of their living wage. If you choose to dine in an establishment where you know the waitstaff's living is dependent on tips (which is generally not the case for cooks) and you choose not to tip you are not fighting the system you are just assuring the person that served you isn't going to receive fair compensation for their labor.

    Systemic change is not achieved by individual choice. We have an ocean filled with plastic garbage that is proof of that.

    I mean the workers at the grocery you go to are probably minimum-wage. Maybe you should be tipping them, and don't go there if you can't!

    People at the grocery store aren't working in service of me like waitstaff. Also, generally grocery stores pay quite well and offer benefits.

    OK, so if you can't afford to tip your grocery bagger, then DON"T GO THERE!

    I genuinely don't understand how this is a coherent response to what I posted.

    The box boy (or girl) is working directly in service of you to bag your groceries or grab an item you forgot. Starting pay at a grocery store is almost invariably minimum wage or at best a quarter above it. Union dues will be taken out of it if it's a union store. You'll spend some amount of time there depending on if you want to move up and if there is a position to move up to.

    Should the box boy get tipped to bag your groceries and take your carts back from to the store?

    Honestly, I think the idea that retail workers get minimum wage isn't accurate. At least not in my experience.

    I am being specific here. I was a box boy. I spent...I don't recall how long at this point as a box boy. 6 months maybe. I was paid damn close to minimum wage. I paid union dues. I did not receive tips. I busted my ass hauling carts back into the store. I bagged like a mofo because that is how I do. What is the special essence that makes a server worthy of a tip but a box boy not worthy of a tip?

    Nothing.

    But this whataboutism isn't exactly useful.

    This isn't whataboutism, it is a specific counterexample. If you argument is "we should tip low paid workers because they deserve the additional payment for their labor" then "but you don't tip the vast majority of low wage workers" is a solid argument. If your answer is to tip all low wage workers, then yeah, you have eliminated the counterargument and bringing it up would be whataboutism. However, I haven't seen a call for that, I've only seen calls to continue tipping the folks that have over time become commonplace to tip, based only on the argument present here

    My specific answer to you is that server has to deal with a metric ton more bullshit than you do as a box-person. They need to be the link between front and back of the house, manage and coordinate right any mistakes that are made and deal with the wild personalities and proclivities of both their customers and the cooks.

    Congrats, you basically just described all of retail, the vast majority of which don’t get tipped either.

    Nope. Being a waiter is far more complicated. In retail you need a passing knowledge of products and how to run a POS. The hardest thing you'll have to do is deal with a shitty customer and process a return.

    Being a waiter you need to know the whole menu, have an opinion about everything on it, know what the major ingredients are in any dish, card people for alcohol, deal with TABLES of shitty people, manage your colleagues tables when they are on breaks, broker communication between front and back of house, do kitchen prep work, do dining service prep work (rollups,etc), clean the restaurant, etc etc.

    You people who think any customer facing job is as difficult as being a waiter are fucking fooling and telling on yourselves. Being a waiter is skilled labour that is frequently underpaid. I'd even argue if they were granted livable wages they STILL deserve tips.

    Not to pick this post apart line by line, but you’re really diminishing the work retail employees do and overstating the work a waiter does.

    As a former waiter I didn’t know the full menu at all and I had a few favorites I could recommend if asked. None of my coworkers had an opinion about every dish on the menu.

    Ok cool. Every restaurant/hotel I worked at required it. So I guess we're even?

    Both are shitty jobs. Both are jobs that I held for a long ass time. From my experience being a waiter was FAR more involved than doing any retail work in either the clothing stores, oddities/headshop, and Blockbuster video where I worked.

    And my wife works retail and would be insulted at your description of the work they do. So I guess anecdotes are still not the singular for data.

    Why would she be insulted? What is being done in her job that I'm overlooking? I'm not saying the things I highlighted that are done as tasks in retail aren't hard. I'm just saying they require as much skill and priority juggling as waitstaff.

  • Options
    ronzoronzo Registered User regular
    edited April 2023
    Do you even listen to yourself?

    “You’re being insulting to multiple groups here”

    “No I’m not, please point out where in my reductive as fuck post I missed something”

    Edit: if I didn’t know you 100% don’t see the problem with what you’ve said in the last page I would say the post above this was one parody.

    ronzo on
  • Options
    PhyphorPhyphor Building Planet Busters Tasting FruitRegistered User regular
    Doodmann wrote: »
    we might be past this point but it really grinds my gears when restaurants talk about their slim margins as an excuse for not paying anyone well, since 90% of the time they're only in that situation because they rent on commercial property is egregious.

    What do you expect them to do about it? Not pay their rent? Be located in more out of the way areas?

  • Options
    SpoitSpoit *twitch twitch* Registered User regular
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Orca wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    Butters wrote: »
    cncaudata wrote: »
    If some folks are arguing that the business paying their workers $18/hour, giving them benefits, and not allowing tips is the bad guy because some workers might have made more money from tips... I don't know what to do.

    Like, I am way better off if men keep getting paid more than women for the same work. That doesn't mean we should keep doing it.

    Put your actual prices on the menu, pay your workers the actual money they're going to earn, and everyone can apply for the job or order the food with full knowledge of the transactions being made. If $18 isn't enough for that work, then workers will go get other jobs, etc.

    I'd also like to address a thread of this conversation that popped up again, wherein people are told that they are dicks for not tipping, because tipping is a good thing to do to provide income for workers that are underpaid by their employers. Um, no. You don't get to tell people they're dicks for making a different choice in how to spend their charity dollars. Money is fungible, and all that tip money you feel so great about handing out isn't necessarily doing what you want, and it's certainly not sure to be doing more good than any other charitable use of that money. The arguments been made over and over, but it's still valid. If you aren't tipping every minimum wage worker you interact with, and all the ones close enough to throw money at that you don't interact with, and donating most of your disposable income to charity, etc., then you don't get to tell someone that their choice of how to spend their money is wrong.

    Folks that say this are actually falling into the social shame game that they claim doesn't exist. Why do you tip your server and not all the servers, busboys, cooks, you see? It's because you want your fancy good (opposite of shame) feeling for supporting the income of somebody that serves you. Heck, you could support the workers more by just going in, handing them a tip, and walking out. No need to take up their time with actually ordering the food.

    Ugh, telling people they shouldn't eat out if they can't afford to tip is no different than telling folks on WIC that they should only be able to buy dry rice and beans. Yes, it's a societal norm that the tip is included, but it's also a commonly held belief that poor people shouldn't have anything nice. Both ideas suck.

    Uh...yes it is. When a person buys a tiny bit nicer food with their SNAP benefits or whatever they aren't also shorting a worker of their living wage. If you choose to dine in an establishment where you know the waitstaff's living is dependent on tips (which is generally not the case for cooks) and you choose not to tip you are not fighting the system you are just assuring the person that served you isn't going to receive fair compensation for their labor.

    Systemic change is not achieved by individual choice. We have an ocean filled with plastic garbage that is proof of that.

    I mean the workers at the grocery you go to are probably minimum-wage. Maybe you should be tipping them, and don't go there if you can't!

    People at the grocery store aren't working in service of me like waitstaff. Also, generally grocery stores pay quite well and offer benefits.

    OK, so if you can't afford to tip your grocery bagger, then DON"T GO THERE!

    I genuinely don't understand how this is a coherent response to what I posted.

    The box boy (or girl) is working directly in service of you to bag your groceries or grab an item you forgot. Starting pay at a grocery store is almost invariably minimum wage or at best a quarter above it. Union dues will be taken out of it if it's a union store. You'll spend some amount of time there depending on if you want to move up and if there is a position to move up to.

    Should the box boy get tipped to bag your groceries and take your carts back from to the store?

    Honestly, I think the idea that retail workers get minimum wage isn't accurate. At least not in my experience.

    https://crosscut.com/opinion/2021/02/did-kroger-really-close-two-seattle-qfcs-over-hazard-pay
    QFC says its labor costs equal 13% of total sales, and its Seattle labor costs average $25.96 an hour, including benefits. (That’s believable: There tend to be a lot of newbies starting at $16.79, just over minimum wage, and a lot of old-timers near $23, the top of the union-won wage scale, with a sprinkling in between.)

    That's a good point with the ice cream store thing people were going off on. Benefits have a huge overhead, like 50-100% over the salary the employee actually sees on their paycheck. A hell of a lot more than the $2 "discount" the minimum wage you people were going off on is worth

    steam_sig.png
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