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Tipping/Gratuity Culture

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    Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    edited April 2023
    Doodmann wrote: »
    we might be past this point but it really grinds my gears when restaurants talk about their slim margins as an excuse for not paying anyone well, since 90% of the time they're only in that situation because they rent on commercial property is egregious.

    Hahaha for now

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    SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Fuck Warren Ellis Registered User regular
    edited April 2023

    @ronzo
    I'm asking explicitly what the tasks are incumbent to a retail position that people think measure up to what waitstaff are typically on the hook for in a regular restaurant or banquets job. Again, having done both jobs for a long time, my experience is that both jobs were tough but one was tougher and left me A LOT more exhausted at the end of a shift too.

    You can make up fake quotes about what I'm saying or not saying all you want but I'm literally trying to get at the crux of what we're arguing about here. Maybe people don't see work as a (flawed) meritocracy at all - and that's fine. It's just that every time I've asked people just vaguely say it's hard or it sucks because of karen's and shitty co-workers.

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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited April 2023
    @ronzo
    I'm asking explicitly what the tasks are incumbent to a retail position that people think measure up to what waitstaff are typically on the hook for in a regular restaurant or banquets job. Again, having done both jobs for a long time, my experience is that both jobs were tough but one was tougher and left me A LOT more exhausted at the end of a shift too.

    You can make up fake quotes about what I'm saying or not saying all you want but I'm literally trying to get at the crux of what we're arguing about here. Maybe people don't see work as a (flawed) meritocracy at all - and that's fine. It's just that every time I've asked people just vaguely say it's hard or it sucks because of karen's and shitty co-workers.

    Well if we’re gonna play the “justify your pay” game, imma fall back to page one and say table servers are gonna have a real hard time justifying why I should ever pay them a single solitary dime that I don’t owe them.

    You want to panhandle? Find an onramp.

    And yes, I’ve also waited tables.

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    SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Fuck Warren Ellis Registered User regular
    That opinion seems....fraught?

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    Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    @ronzo
    I'm asking explicitly what the tasks are incumbent to a retail position that people think measure up to what waitstaff are typically on the hook for in a regular restaurant or banquets job. Again, having done both jobs for a long time, my experience is that both jobs were tough but one was tougher and left me A LOT more exhausted at the end of a shift too.

    You can make up fake quotes about what I'm saying or not saying all you want but I'm literally trying to get at the crux of what we're arguing about here. Maybe people don't see work as a (flawed) meritocracy at all - and that's fine. It's just that every time I've asked people just vaguely say it's hard or it sucks because of karen's and shitty co-workers.

    Well if we’re gonna play the “justify your pay” game, imma fall back to page one and say table servers are gonna have a real hard time justifying why I should ever pay them a single solitary dime that I don’t owe them.

    You want to panhandle? Find an onramp.

    And yes, I’ve also waited tables.

    Well you owe them a tip so case closed I guess.

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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited April 2023
    That opinion seems....fraught?

    Unpopular, perhaps.

    But perfectly rational.

    We’re talking about asking me, individually, to hand somebody (whether literally you or some hypothetical server) some money that I don’t owe.

    Personally I find “anything helps god bless” to be a much more compelling plea than “your job isn’t that hard fuck you money please”

    Maybe I’m weird.
    you owe them a tip so case closed I guess.

    Literally don’t. Can’t be a gratuity by law if I owe it. Need me to link the IRS pub?

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    Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    Bro idk what to tell you. Life is full of social and moral obligations that dont come itemized on a bill.

    Youre not being particularly rational either. Youve already said you'd be fine with prices going up 20% to replace a tip. You're not even trying to save money.

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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    Bro idk what to tell you. Life is full of social and moral obligations that dont come itemized on a bill.

    Youre not being particularly rational either. Youve already said you'd be fine with prices going up 20% to replace a tip. You're not even trying to save money.

    Right. Because I don’t generally mind paying what I owe.

    I’m less happy having some conceited asshole pretending their job is harder than mine and that’s why I need to hand them money I don’t actually owe them because reasons. I can think of better charities to donate to.

    Also denigrating the work I’ve done is a shit sales pitch for a charity.

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    Death of RatsDeath of Rats Registered User regular
    edited April 2023
    Edit: think I was missreading the situation.

    Death of Rats on
    No I don't.
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    Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Bro idk what to tell you. Life is full of social and moral obligations that dont come itemized on a bill.

    Youre not being particularly rational either. Youve already said you'd be fine with prices going up 20% to replace a tip. You're not even trying to save money.

    Right. Because I don’t generally mind paying what I owe.

    I’m less happy having some conceited asshole pretending their job is harder than mine and that’s why I need to hand them money I don’t actually owe them because reasons. I can think of better charities to donate to.

    Also denigrating the work I’ve done is a shit sales pitch for a charity.

    Its like your entire problem with tipping comes down to not wanting to be seen to do someone with a shitty job a solid.

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    shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    ronzo wrote: »
    Trying to say the average waitstaff puts up with more bullshit than the average customer facing retail worker is an ex post facto justification for tipping one group over the other.

    90% of this discussion is an ex post facto justification for tipping.

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    SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Fuck Warren Ellis Registered User regular
    Who is denigrating the work you've done? If you mean me I've pointed out that the work you do is different. If you take that as some kind of affront on your person, well have fun with life I guess?

    I work a corporate job in enablement for a big tech company. It requires a good degree of skilled labour and technical knowledge. It in no way compares to the level of knowledge technical architects in my business are required to have for their jobs. Their job requires more skilled labour than mine and they should be compensated justly for it. That is not a slight on me and my contribution in my role.

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    DoodmannDoodmann Registered User regular
    Phyphor wrote: »
    Doodmann wrote: »
    we might be past this point but it really grinds my gears when restaurants talk about their slim margins as an excuse for not paying anyone well, since 90% of the time they're only in that situation because they rent on commercial property is egregious.

    What do you expect them to do about it? Not pay their rent? Be located in more out of the way areas?

    I expect them to try an fix it with their inflated position in local politics instead of using it as a crutch for why they made shitty financial choices and dumping those on their workers.

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    Stabbity StyleStabbity Style He/Him | Warning: Mothership Reporting Kennewick, WARegistered User regular
    It just doesn't really seem like there's an actual way to end tipping. Like, we have laws here that ensure there's no separate lower tipping wage and that's still not enough to end tips. Idk what more you want legislatively to fix it. Business owners outside of some rare left leaning ones aren't going to decide, "Oh, I should pay my workers more instead of leaving part of their salary up to the whims of customers." And even if employees unionize, I doubt their priority is going to be ending tipping. The only thing keeping tipping going here is peer pressure.

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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Bro idk what to tell you. Life is full of social and moral obligations that dont come itemized on a bill.

    Youre not being particularly rational either. Youve already said you'd be fine with prices going up 20% to replace a tip. You're not even trying to save money.

    Right. Because I don’t generally mind paying what I owe.

    I’m less happy having some conceited asshole pretending their job is harder than mine and that’s why I need to hand them money I don’t actually owe them because reasons. I can think of better charities to donate to.

    Also denigrating the work I’ve done is a shit sales pitch for a charity.

    Its like your entire problem with tipping comes down to not wanting to be seen to do someone with a shitty job a solid.

    I don’t love how selective we are about it.

    Probably comes from spending more time in untipped service than tipped. Which yeah, is part of why having somebody come in and shit all over untipped service workers while insisting that traditionally tipped positions definitely deserve to be so over those untipped workers is a bit galling.

    The use of social pressure to exert money out of me to hand to that person? Yeah, don’t love it. I’d rather just pay my bill, even if it’s higher, even if that guy is getting paid well because it’s higher.

    Like I wasn’t thrilled when somebody tried to pressure me to chip in for a bunch of snacks and shit at work either. Snacks I wouldn’t be eating any of. Shit was nonsense.

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    DoodmannDoodmann Registered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Bro idk what to tell you. Life is full of social and moral obligations that dont come itemized on a bill.

    Youre not being particularly rational either. Youve already said you'd be fine with prices going up 20% to replace a tip. You're not even trying to save money.

    Right. Because I don’t generally mind paying what I owe.

    I’m less happy having some conceited asshole pretending their job is harder than mine and that’s why I need to hand them money I don’t actually owe them because reasons. I can think of better charities to donate to.

    Also denigrating the work I’ve done is a shit sales pitch for a charity.

    Its like your entire problem with tipping comes down to not wanting to be seen to do someone with a shitty job a solid.

    yes I think they is his problem with it, because treating tipping as charity invites all kind of bigotry and classism.

    Whippy wrote: »
    nope nope nope nope abort abort talk about anime
    I like to ART
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    Death of RatsDeath of Rats Registered User regular
    It just doesn't really seem like there's an actual way to end tipping. Like, we have laws here that ensure there's no separate lower tipping wage and that's still not enough to end tips. Idk what more you want legislatively to fix it. Business owners outside of some rare left leaning ones aren't going to decide, "Oh, I should pay my workers more instead of leaving part of their salary up to the whims of customers." And even if employees unionize, I doubt their priority is going to be ending tipping. The only thing keeping tipping going here is peer pressure.

    Could the issue be that because it's not a federal law and people tend to travel that the whole idea of not tipping can't really catch on because our culture and norms consists of not only local, but also national ones?

    No I don't.
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    kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    It just doesn't really seem like there's an actual way to end tipping. Like, we have laws here that ensure there's no separate lower tipping wage and that's still not enough to end tips. Idk what more you want legislatively to fix it. Business owners outside of some rare left leaning ones aren't going to decide, "Oh, I should pay my workers more instead of leaving part of their salary up to the whims of customers." And even if employees unionize, I doubt their priority is going to be ending tipping. The only thing keeping tipping going here is peer pressure.

    Social pressure for more businesses to do what the ice cream place did is probably the way we get there slowly? It's the most likely path I see, but there've been other ideas floated around here too.

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    Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    edited April 2023
    It just doesn't really seem like there's an actual way to end tipping. Like, we have laws here that ensure there's no separate lower tipping wage and that's still not enough to end tips. Idk what more you want legislatively to fix it. Business owners outside of some rare left leaning ones aren't going to decide, "Oh, I should pay my workers more instead of leaving part of their salary up to the whims of customers." And even if employees unionize, I doubt their priority is going to be ending tipping. The only thing keeping tipping going here is peer pressure.

    I mean few people actually like the tip system. Getting rid of it isnt impossible but a good place to start would be a real meaningful universal minimum wage. We dont have that, and it isnt realistic to expect tipping to stop just in the few places that do have one.

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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    Who is denigrating the work you've done? If you mean me I've pointed out that the work you do is different. If you take that as some kind of affront on your person, well have fun with life I guess?

    It’s different, and unworthy of paying extra unowed money for. Per you.

    But according to the popular consensus, my refusing to hand a server additional money I don’t owe is a grave insult. But you withholding the same from every retail worker, and advocating for it to stay that way, is a perfectly acceptable valuation of the job they do.

    I definitely don’t think everybody who makes less than me is shit, or that everybody who makes more than me is awesome. Work is work, some work pays more than other work. No problem.

    But of course *most* workers aren’t asking me to hand them money I don’t owe them. Servers are.

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    Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    Doodmann wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Bro idk what to tell you. Life is full of social and moral obligations that dont come itemized on a bill.

    Youre not being particularly rational either. Youve already said you'd be fine with prices going up 20% to replace a tip. You're not even trying to save money.

    Right. Because I don’t generally mind paying what I owe.

    I’m less happy having some conceited asshole pretending their job is harder than mine and that’s why I need to hand them money I don’t actually owe them because reasons. I can think of better charities to donate to.

    Also denigrating the work I’ve done is a shit sales pitch for a charity.

    Its like your entire problem with tipping comes down to not wanting to be seen to do someone with a shitty job a solid.

    yes I think they is his problem with it, because treating tipping as charity invites all kind of bigotry and classism.

    I think he's been pretty clear his opposition to tipping is a personal hangup.

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    Stabbity StyleStabbity Style He/Him | Warning: Mothership Reporting Kennewick, WARegistered User regular
    It just doesn't really seem like there's an actual way to end tipping. Like, we have laws here that ensure there's no separate lower tipping wage and that's still not enough to end tips. Idk what more you want legislatively to fix it. Business owners outside of some rare left leaning ones aren't going to decide, "Oh, I should pay my workers more instead of leaving part of their salary up to the whims of customers." And even if employees unionize, I doubt their priority is going to be ending tipping. The only thing keeping tipping going here is peer pressure.

    I mean few people actually like the tip system. Getting rid of it isnt impossible but a good place to start would be a real meaningful universal minimum wage. We dont have that, and it isnt realistic to expect tipping to stop just in the few places that do have one.

    People actually like the tip system? Like, idk who outside of people who make lots of money on tips.

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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    Doodmann wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Bro idk what to tell you. Life is full of social and moral obligations that dont come itemized on a bill.

    Youre not being particularly rational either. Youve already said you'd be fine with prices going up 20% to replace a tip. You're not even trying to save money.

    Right. Because I don’t generally mind paying what I owe.

    I’m less happy having some conceited asshole pretending their job is harder than mine and that’s why I need to hand them money I don’t actually owe them because reasons. I can think of better charities to donate to.

    Also denigrating the work I’ve done is a shit sales pitch for a charity.

    Its like your entire problem with tipping comes down to not wanting to be seen to do someone with a shitty job a solid.

    yes I think they is his problem with it, because treating tipping as charity invites all kind of bigotry and classism.

    I think he's been pretty clear his opposition to tipping is a personal hangup.

    It’s both personal opposition to extorting money out of customers via social pressure (rather than clear billing) and *also* all the toxic aspects of tipping that aren’t great for low wage workers.

    But yes, it *is* both. The former is part of it.

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    Death of RatsDeath of Rats Registered User regular
    It just doesn't really seem like there's an actual way to end tipping. Like, we have laws here that ensure there's no separate lower tipping wage and that's still not enough to end tips. Idk what more you want legislatively to fix it. Business owners outside of some rare left leaning ones aren't going to decide, "Oh, I should pay my workers more instead of leaving part of their salary up to the whims of customers." And even if employees unionize, I doubt their priority is going to be ending tipping. The only thing keeping tipping going here is peer pressure.

    I mean few people actually like the tip system. Getting rid of it isnt impossible but a good place to start would be a real meaningful universal minimum wage. We dont have that, and it isnt realistic to expect tipping to stop just in the few places that do have one.

    People actually like the tip system? Like, idk who outside of people who make lots of money on tips.

    Misreading. Sammich is saying few people like the tip system, not a few people like the tip system.

    No I don't.
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    Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    It just doesn't really seem like there's an actual way to end tipping. Like, we have laws here that ensure there's no separate lower tipping wage and that's still not enough to end tips. Idk what more you want legislatively to fix it. Business owners outside of some rare left leaning ones aren't going to decide, "Oh, I should pay my workers more instead of leaving part of their salary up to the whims of customers." And even if employees unionize, I doubt their priority is going to be ending tipping. The only thing keeping tipping going here is peer pressure.

    I mean few people actually like the tip system. Getting rid of it isnt impossible but a good place to start would be a real meaningful universal minimum wage. We dont have that, and it isnt realistic to expect tipping to stop just in the few places that do have one.

    People actually like the tip system? Like, idk who outside of people who make lots of money on tips.

    Yeah I mean there are some waiters and bartenders that make $$$ on tips because they serve 30 dollar drinks to lawyers and more power to em but theyre not representative.

    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
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    Stabbity StyleStabbity Style He/Him | Warning: Mothership Reporting Kennewick, WARegistered User regular
    It just doesn't really seem like there's an actual way to end tipping. Like, we have laws here that ensure there's no separate lower tipping wage and that's still not enough to end tips. Idk what more you want legislatively to fix it. Business owners outside of some rare left leaning ones aren't going to decide, "Oh, I should pay my workers more instead of leaving part of their salary up to the whims of customers." And even if employees unionize, I doubt their priority is going to be ending tipping. The only thing keeping tipping going here is peer pressure.

    I mean few people actually like the tip system. Getting rid of it isnt impossible but a good place to start would be a real meaningful universal minimum wage. We dont have that, and it isnt realistic to expect tipping to stop just in the few places that do have one.

    People actually like the tip system? Like, idk who outside of people who make lots of money on tips.

    Misreading. Sammich is saying few people like the tip system, not a few people like the tip system.

    Oh, yeah, definitely misread it, my bad.

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    joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    The actual reason retail workers are not tipped while food service workers are is because racism and misogyny, and then perpetuated through social inertia and apathy. Those are the jobs that black people and women were able to get, and nobody wanted to pay them a wage.

    All of the arguing over whether or not retail workers deserve tips is beside the point. Those jobs aren’t tipped because they don’t have their roots in the racist and misogynistic practice of tipping. It has nothing, at all, to do with how hard the work is.

    Is tipping today less racist and sexist than it was when first implemented? Kind of? Not really? The pretty blonde woman is taking home more money than the black man doing the same work. They’re both also dealing with unwanted attention, positive or negative. But the practice lumbers on, not because most people like it, or think it’s the best way to do things, or because we have totally overcome its problematic roots. It endures for the same reason most cultural traditions endure: social passivity.

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    crzyangocrzyango Registered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Bro idk what to tell you. Life is full of social and moral obligations that dont come itemized on a bill.

    Youre not being particularly rational either. Youve already said you'd be fine with prices going up 20% to replace a tip. You're not even trying to save money.

    Right. Because I don’t generally mind paying what I owe.

    I’m less happy having some conceited asshole pretending their job is harder than mine and that’s why I need to hand them money I don’t actually owe them because reasons. I can think of better charities to donate to.

    Also denigrating the work I’ve done is a shit sales pitch for a charity.

    Its like your entire problem with tipping comes down to not wanting to be seen to do someone with a shitty job a solid.

    I don’t love how selective we are about it.

    Probably comes from spending more time in untipped service than tipped. Which yeah, is part of why having somebody come in and shit all over untipped service workers while insisting that traditionally tipped positions definitely deserve to be so over those untipped workers is a bit galling.

    The use of social pressure to exert money out of me to hand to that person? Yeah, don’t love it. I’d rather just pay my bill, even if it’s higher, even if that guy is getting paid well because it’s higher.

    Like I wasn’t thrilled when somebody tried to pressure me to chip in for a bunch of snacks and shit at work either. Snacks I wouldn’t be eating any of. Shit was nonsense.

    I also worked as an untipped retail/service worker, and I think your worry about social/societal shame is BS.

    You don't wanna tip? Fine. You think you're being shamed by your social group?

    OK? Find one that aligns to your ideas or accept that you've made a decision that doesn't fit your social group.

    I've changed social groupings multiple times because we don't align on some non-negotiables that I didn't know about going in.

    Not everyone needs to like you, and social pressure is a bullshit construct to hide behind.

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    SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Fuck Warren Ellis Registered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Who is denigrating the work you've done? If you mean me I've pointed out that the work you do is different. If you take that as some kind of affront on your person, well have fun with life I guess?

    It’s different, and unworthy of paying extra unowed money for. Per you.

    But according to the popular consensus, my refusing to hand a server additional money I don’t owe is a grave insult. But you withholding the same from every retail worker, and advocating for it to stay that way, is a perfectly acceptable valuation of the job they do.

    I definitely don’t think everybody who makes less than me is shit, or that everybody who makes more than me is awesome. Work is work, some work pays more than other work. No problem.

    But of course *most* workers aren’t asking me to hand them money I don’t owe them. Servers are.

    Based on my personal experience and that of just about everybody I know - whom at some point were either in the service, retail, or hospitality industry (so yes, still anecdotal) I do think Servers deserve more pay than other entry level jobs because of the intensity of the work and skills involved.

    A livable minimum wage is appropriate for most entry-level retail jobs. Because it is not highly skilled labour, your big levers to pull for more money are basically experience and longevity in a given role - along with moving into management. There's also no mechanism to really tip in retail and seldom am I being catered to the whole time I'm in a retail store VS in a restaurant.

    They are very different things and I'm not sure why people are so set on saying they are the same.

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    PhyphorPhyphor Building Planet Busters Tasting FruitRegistered User regular
    Doodmann wrote: »
    Phyphor wrote: »
    Doodmann wrote: »
    we might be past this point but it really grinds my gears when restaurants talk about their slim margins as an excuse for not paying anyone well, since 90% of the time they're only in that situation because they rent on commercial property is egregious.

    What do you expect them to do about it? Not pay their rent? Be located in more out of the way areas?

    I expect them to try an fix it with their inflated position in local politics instead of using it as a crutch for why they made shitty financial choices and dumping those on their workers.

    Its not a shitty financial choice though, presumably they picked a good location (or they'll lose money and fold anyway). What are local politicians going to do? Chase away future developers by forcing them to rent at below market prices? And even so nobody will pass all or even most of those savings onto employees anyway

    Why would any business owner risk the ire of their landlord and risk losing their investment for the sole benefit of their employees?

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    joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    The mechanism for tipping those jobs doesn’t exist because of the history of labor in the US, not because somebody measured how often those workers deal with customers versus wait staff

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    DoodmannDoodmann Registered User regular
    Phyphor wrote: »
    Doodmann wrote: »
    Phyphor wrote: »
    Doodmann wrote: »
    we might be past this point but it really grinds my gears when restaurants talk about their slim margins as an excuse for not paying anyone well, since 90% of the time they're only in that situation because they rent on commercial property is egregious.

    What do you expect them to do about it? Not pay their rent? Be located in more out of the way areas?

    I expect them to try an fix it with their inflated position in local politics instead of using it as a crutch for why they made shitty financial choices and dumping those on their workers.

    Its not a shitty financial choice though, presumably they picked a good location (or they'll lose money and fold anyway). What are local politicians going to do? Chase away future developers by forcing them to rent at below market prices? And even so nobody will pass all or even most of those savings onto employees anyway

    Why would any business owner risk the ire of their landlord and risk losing their investment for the sole benefit of their employees?

    Guess most business owners aren't part of the capitalist class?

    Like if they can't pay for the rent and pay for their employees then guess what they can't run a business.

    It's the same thing as "if you can't afford to tip you can't afford to eat there" just in reverse or a step of the class ladder.

    Local governments should absolutely be pushing the scales to encourage local business and discourage rent seeking/corporate franchise creep.

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    OrcaOrca Also known as Espressosaurus WrexRegistered User regular
    Hell, home health aids are paid minimum wage or slightly above it, and they deal with literal shitty adult diapers and they're not tipped. Janitors clean shitty (literally) bathrooms all day long and don't get tipped. People working back of the house don't get tipped (unless there's tip pooling in place) and they bust their asses even harder. Base pay may or may not be higher, but they're not going to make the same tips as someone working front of the house at a busy location.

    Tipping isn't about earning it or deserving it. It's an accident of history who gets it vs. who doesn't, and because it's an accident of history norms vary from country to country. Although--sorry Canada--it sounds like we've been exporting our US norms to you there.

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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited April 2023
    crzyango wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Bro idk what to tell you. Life is full of social and moral obligations that dont come itemized on a bill.

    Youre not being particularly rational either. Youve already said you'd be fine with prices going up 20% to replace a tip. You're not even trying to save money.

    Right. Because I don’t generally mind paying what I owe.

    I’m less happy having some conceited asshole pretending their job is harder than mine and that’s why I need to hand them money I don’t actually owe them because reasons. I can think of better charities to donate to.

    Also denigrating the work I’ve done is a shit sales pitch for a charity.

    Its like your entire problem with tipping comes down to not wanting to be seen to do someone with a shitty job a solid.

    I don’t love how selective we are about it.

    Probably comes from spending more time in untipped service than tipped. Which yeah, is part of why having somebody come in and shit all over untipped service workers while insisting that traditionally tipped positions definitely deserve to be so over those untipped workers is a bit galling.

    The use of social pressure to exert money out of me to hand to that person? Yeah, don’t love it. I’d rather just pay my bill, even if it’s higher, even if that guy is getting paid well because it’s higher.

    Like I wasn’t thrilled when somebody tried to pressure me to chip in for a bunch of snacks and shit at work either. Snacks I wouldn’t be eating any of. Shit was nonsense.

    I also worked as an untipped retail/service worker, and I think your worry about social/societal shame is BS.

    You don't wanna tip? Fine. You think you're being shamed by your social group?

    OK? Find one that aligns to your ideas or accept that you've made a decision that doesn't fit your social group.

    I've changed social groupings multiple times because we don't align on some non-negotiables that I didn't know about going in.

    Not everyone needs to like you, and social pressure is a bullshit construct to hide behind.

    “I don’t tip table servers” I’d about two rungs above “I diddle kids” in terms of social taboo in the US. You will not built a social group of like-minded people around it. Or if you do, it’s likely that it will be literally the only thing you have in common. And believe it or not, no, I don’t make this my whole fucking identity. I participate in this thread because somebody else started it. If it wasn’t here? I wouldn’t have posted it.

    There’s a reason every single person in this thread save one (I’m not the one, oddly) has made it clear they tip servers regardless of whatever else they post on the topic. My hope is that maybe through actually talking about this custom instead of knee-jerk conforming, we can shift that at least a bit in my lifetime.

    Of course “retire in Europe where this shit isn’t a thing” is a decent backup plan as well.

    mcdermott on
  • Options
    joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    edited April 2023
    I agree with Styro, “implement UBI and then burn the tipping system with fire” should be the ultimate goal

    joshofalltrades on
  • Options
    Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    edited April 2023
    Oh not even UBI, just actual just wages would be fine.

    Of course tipping is a shitty system. Of course it sucks even more for the low wage workers who dont get tips. The only justifiable thing to do is keep tipping until we approach some kind of economic justice in this country, otherwise youre just making poor people poorer.

    Styrofoam Sammich on
    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
  • Options
    joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    I prefer UBI but fair enough :P

  • Options
    crzyangocrzyango Registered User regular
    edited April 2023
    mcdermott wrote: »
    crzyango wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Bro idk what to tell you. Life is full of social and moral obligations that dont come itemized on a bill.

    Youre not being particularly rational either. Youve already said you'd be fine with prices going up 20% to replace a tip. You're not even trying to save money.

    Right. Because I don’t generally mind paying what I owe.

    I’m less happy having some conceited asshole pretending their job is harder than mine and that’s why I need to hand them money I don’t actually owe them because reasons. I can think of better charities to donate to.

    Also denigrating the work I’ve done is a shit sales pitch for a charity.

    Its like your entire problem with tipping comes down to not wanting to be seen to do someone with a shitty job a solid.

    I don’t love how selective we are about it.

    Probably comes from spending more time in untipped service than tipped. Which yeah, is part of why having somebody come in and shit all over untipped service workers while insisting that traditionally tipped positions definitely deserve to be so over those untipped workers is a bit galling.

    The use of social pressure to exert money out of me to hand to that person? Yeah, don’t love it. I’d rather just pay my bill, even if it’s higher, even if that guy is getting paid well because it’s higher.

    Like I wasn’t thrilled when somebody tried to pressure me to chip in for a bunch of snacks and shit at work either. Snacks I wouldn’t be eating any of. Shit was nonsense.

    I also worked as an untipped retail/service worker, and I think your worry about social/societal shame is BS.

    You don't wanna tip? Fine. You think you're being shamed by your social group?

    OK? Find one that aligns to your ideas or accept that you've made a decision that doesn't fit your social group.

    I've changed social groupings multiple times because we don't align on some non-negotiables that I didn't know about going in.

    Not everyone needs to like you, and social pressure is a bullshit construct to hide behind.

    “I don’t tip table servers” I’d about two rungs above “I diddle kids” in terms of social taboo in the US. You will not built a social group of like-minded people around it. Or if you do, it’s likely that it will be literally the only thing you have in common. And believe it or not, no, I don’t make this my whole fucking identity. I participate in this thread because somebody else started it. If it wasn’t here? I wouldn’t have posted it.

    There’s a reason every single person in this thread save one (I’m not the one, oddly) has made it clear they tip servers regardless of whatever else they post on the topic. My hope is that maybe through actually talking about this custom instead of knee-jerk conforming, we can shift that at least a bit in my lifetime.

    Of course “retire in Europe where this shit isn’t a thing” is a decent backup plan as well.

    Comparing not tipping to pedophilia is beyond the pail. What the fuck is wrong with you.

    Edit: like for real, go touch grass. Your privilege is all over the place, and you compared not tipping to DIDDLING KIDS.

    crzyango on
  • Options
    joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    Of course tipping is a shitty system. Of course it sucks even more for the low wage workers who dont get tips. The only justifiable thing to do is keep tipping until we approach some kind of economic justice in this country, otherwise youre just making poor people poorer.

    Hi5

  • Options
    OrcaOrca Also known as Espressosaurus WrexRegistered User regular
    crzyango wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    crzyango wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Bro idk what to tell you. Life is full of social and moral obligations that dont come itemized on a bill.

    Youre not being particularly rational either. Youve already said you'd be fine with prices going up 20% to replace a tip. You're not even trying to save money.

    Right. Because I don’t generally mind paying what I owe.

    I’m less happy having some conceited asshole pretending their job is harder than mine and that’s why I need to hand them money I don’t actually owe them because reasons. I can think of better charities to donate to.

    Also denigrating the work I’ve done is a shit sales pitch for a charity.

    Its like your entire problem with tipping comes down to not wanting to be seen to do someone with a shitty job a solid.

    I don’t love how selective we are about it.

    Probably comes from spending more time in untipped service than tipped. Which yeah, is part of why having somebody come in and shit all over untipped service workers while insisting that traditionally tipped positions definitely deserve to be so over those untipped workers is a bit galling.

    The use of social pressure to exert money out of me to hand to that person? Yeah, don’t love it. I’d rather just pay my bill, even if it’s higher, even if that guy is getting paid well because it’s higher.

    Like I wasn’t thrilled when somebody tried to pressure me to chip in for a bunch of snacks and shit at work either. Snacks I wouldn’t be eating any of. Shit was nonsense.

    I also worked as an untipped retail/service worker, and I think your worry about social/societal shame is BS.

    You don't wanna tip? Fine. You think you're being shamed by your social group?

    OK? Find one that aligns to your ideas or accept that you've made a decision that doesn't fit your social group.

    I've changed social groupings multiple times because we don't align on some non-negotiables that I didn't know about going in.

    Not everyone needs to like you, and social pressure is a bullshit construct to hide behind.

    “I don’t tip table servers” I’d about two rungs above “I diddle kids” in terms of social taboo in the US. You will not built a social group of like-minded people around it. Or if you do, it’s likely that it will be literally the only thing you have in common. And believe it or not, no, I don’t make this my whole fucking identity. I participate in this thread because somebody else started it. If it wasn’t here? I wouldn’t have posted it.

    There’s a reason every single person in this thread save one (I’m not the one, oddly) has made it clear they tip servers regardless of whatever else they post on the topic. My hope is that maybe through actually talking about this custom instead of knee-jerk conforming, we can shift that at least a bit in my lifetime.

    Of course “retire in Europe where this shit isn’t a thing” is a decent backup plan as well.

    Comparing not tipping to pedophilia is beyond the pail. What the fuck is wrong with you.

    Edit: like for real, go touch grass. Your privilege is all over the place, and you compared not tipping to DIDDLING KIDS.

    In terms of actual harm? Yeah, you're right.

    In terms of being a social third rail? Exhibit A: this thread.

This discussion has been closed.