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Tipping/Gratuity Culture

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    Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    edited March 2023
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Covid kinda changed the whole tipping game for me.

    I grew up with 15% being standard (like, unless you piss on my food, you're getting 15%) with 20% being for really good service. Higher percentage if I just got, like, a slice of pie or something, because a tip of 50 cents is stupid. I still tip with those guidelines, because I see no reason not to. The nice thing about inflation and cost of living is that a percentage tip automatically compensates for that!

    (Note that I always feel weird about tips for things like expensive wine. I don't drink wine, so it doesn't come up, but why should the waiter get $20 if I order a $100 bottle of wine, but only a few bucks if I order a cheap wine? The bottle isn't any harder to set on the table.)

    Anyway, then covid hits and wait staff get screwed because nobody can sit down in restaurants, so when they opened up for take out I tipped 20% when picking up just to help them out. They would serve me if they were allowed, it's not their fault they can't.

    But now restaurants are normal-ish again, and my wife and I are of two minds. She thinks they should be tipped 15-20% for pickup because it's nice. I feel that I placed the order online, my only interaction with them is them handing me a bag, and them handing me a bag is not worth $10. (Also, these tips are always collected at the time of order. So I'm tipping $10 in advance in hopes that someone will eventually hand me a bag? Sorry, no.) I usually tip a couple bucks for something like that, since I guess they put the food in the bag too, but I don't value that the same as someone catering to me for an hour.

    It's more than just putting the food in a bag and handing it to you. It could be any number of things they did along the way to ensure they got your food correct, hot and ready to go when you arrived. They put up with ridiculous questions or outlandish requests, make sure people with allergies or dietary restrictions are safe, the list goes on. Their job isn't just to wait on you and keep your glasses full. People acting like not tipping for pickup is because they somehow did less by not waiting on you at a table, when functionally their job is the same except they don't have to worry about refills or deal with your kids sneezing in their face.

    Tipping wouldn't be needed if everyone was just paid a good, living wage but instead the owners of the restaurant have played a game with their customers and employees to make them do a little dance to see who gets screwed and the answer is, no matter who loses they win.

    I'm of the opinion, if you really don't think it's worth tipping then maybe just go buy your own ingredients and chef them up yourself. You clearly see value in the food being prepared for you but can't understand that the person handing you the food is still providing you with a service.

    Local H Jay on
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    SummaryJudgmentSummaryJudgment Grab the hottest iron you can find, stride in the Tower’s front door Registered User regular
    Aioua wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Archangle wrote: »
    I also have to add that as a visitor to the US, tipping culture is incredibly confusing.

    Like, yes, for a restaurant it's obvious because there's usually a line on your bill for your tip, and it's usually a percentage - but I remember my first visit to the US and being very confused about who I should tip and how much.

    Someone helps with luggage to your room? Okay, probably worth a tip - how much? There's no original bill to get a percentage off. In my case, I'm pretty sure I carried my own bags but then someone showed me to me room anyway - am I expected to tip or is that someone trying to exploit my ignorance and get some free cash? I have no idea. I remember handing money to a taxi driver and trying to get him to take his own tip, which I know the taxi driver isn't supposed to do, so the poor guy probably stiffed himself out of a tip.

    No wonder service staff have a 50/50 luck with foreign guests - either we're great tippers or we're terrible tippers, because TIPPING CULTURE IS SHIT.

    Perfect example: I bet there are people here who tip servers like it's going out of style who have never tipped their housekeeping staff when staying at a hotel. Apparently this is customary though, something I didn't know until I was in my 30's. Because how would I?

    Like I bet even a lot of Americans don't know this.

    I 100% think this is bullshit, that was made up recently. And is purely part a social media creation and part the industry trying to hide/shift costs thing. Ohh I'm supposed to tip $x a night for 'housekeeping', wow that'd be too hard to work into a bill that is already a per night rate.


    Also if fewer than 1 in 3 people leave a tip, IF ISN'T fucking customary

    I mean even if there was a real tradition of it, it's gotta be dying now since nobody carries cash anymore and I've never in my life seen a tip line on a hotel invoice.

    I've literally had TSA turn me out of the security line because I was late to a flight because the desk couldn't get me cash to tip housekeeping and I was trying to find an atm before ultimately abandoning the attempt

    Some days Blue wonders why anyone ever bothered making numbers so small; other days she supposes even infinity needs to start somewhere.
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    amateurhouramateurhour One day I'll be professionalhour The woods somewhere in TennesseeRegistered User regular
    Aioua wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Archangle wrote: »
    I also have to add that as a visitor to the US, tipping culture is incredibly confusing.

    Like, yes, for a restaurant it's obvious because there's usually a line on your bill for your tip, and it's usually a percentage - but I remember my first visit to the US and being very confused about who I should tip and how much.

    Someone helps with luggage to your room? Okay, probably worth a tip - how much? There's no original bill to get a percentage off. In my case, I'm pretty sure I carried my own bags but then someone showed me to me room anyway - am I expected to tip or is that someone trying to exploit my ignorance and get some free cash? I have no idea. I remember handing money to a taxi driver and trying to get him to take his own tip, which I know the taxi driver isn't supposed to do, so the poor guy probably stiffed himself out of a tip.

    No wonder service staff have a 50/50 luck with foreign guests - either we're great tippers or we're terrible tippers, because TIPPING CULTURE IS SHIT.

    Perfect example: I bet there are people here who tip servers like it's going out of style who have never tipped their housekeeping staff when staying at a hotel. Apparently this is customary though, something I didn't know until I was in my 30's. Because how would I?

    Like I bet even a lot of Americans don't know this.

    I 100% think this is bullshit, that was made up recently. And is purely part a social media creation and part the industry trying to hide/shift costs thing. Ohh I'm supposed to tip $x a night for 'housekeeping', wow that'd be too hard to work into a bill that is already a per night rate.


    Also if fewer than 1 in 3 people leave a tip, IF ISN'T fucking customary

    I mean even if there was a real tradition of it, it's gotta be dying now since nobody carries cash anymore and I've never in my life seen a tip line on a hotel invoice.

    I've literally had TSA turn me out of the security line because I was late to a flight because the desk couldn't get me cash to tip housekeeping and I was trying to find an atm before ultimately abandoning the attempt

    Confirmed the midwest is Canada for tipping

    (ILU)

    are YOU on the beer list?
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    Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    I tip on the high end, especially if the place seems like shit to work for. This got me a phone number once (appreciated but unwanted) and free onion rings (very much wanted). Learn from my wisdom.

    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
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    R-demR-dem Registered User regular
    I tip on the high end, especially if the place seems like shit to work for. This got me a phone number once (appreciated but unwanted) and free onion rings (very much wanted). Learn from my wisdom.

    Only ask for/give out email?

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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited March 2023
    It's more than just putting the food in a bag and handing it to you. It could be any number of things they did along the way to ensure they got your food correct, hot and ready to go when you arrived. They put up with ridiculous questions or outlandish requests, make sure people with allergies or dietary restrictions are safe, the list goes on. Their job isn't just to wait on you and keep your glasses full. People acting like not tipping for pickup is because they somehow did less by not waiting on you at a table, when functionally their job is the same except they don't have to worry about refills or deal with your kids sneezing in their face.

    All true, but also kinda puts the lie to the common line that tipping is to encourage and compensate for the "personal service" involved in serving a table. Packaging up an order is important, it's real work, but...it's the job. This is basically advocating for handing people money you do not owe them for nothing more than doing their job. This isn't "personal service," this isn't "providing an experience."
    Tipping wouldn't be needed if everyone was just paid a good, living wage but instead the owners of the restaurant have played a game with their customers and employees to make them do a little dance to see who gets screwed and the answer is, no matter who loses they win.

    If enough people opt out of tipping then eventually it forces labor costs back on the employer. But I'd agree this is unlikely to happen.
    I'm of the opinion, if you really don't think it's worth tipping then maybe just go buy your own ingredients and chef them up yourself. You clearly see value in the food being prepared for you but can't understand that the person handing you the food is still providing you with a service.

    I kinda hate this attitude, and I really don't get why it doesn't apply to every other industry. "If you don't want to pay more than what you actually owe on the bill, just do it yourself" is not something that applies basically anywhere else but at a restaurant, apparently? Somebody mentioned auto mechanics starting to add a tip line, and I'm not sure why "if you don't want to pay 20% on top of the repair bill just buy some tools and learn to wrench yourself" isn't a fair statement. Obviously I can't build my own iPhone, but the list of goods and services that I could in theory buy the materials for and do myself is actually pretty long. There's a whole subreddit for people who sew their own clothes, it's pretty cool, but nobody says "if you don't want to tip the cashier at JC Penney then download some patterns and sew your own damn shirts." Because that would be nonsense.

    Insofar as anybody should be paid minimum wage...it's rarely a liveable wage anywhere...I don't see why food service shouldn't be. As in, if anybody is being paid that wage, if that is a legal wage to be paid, what makes the job you describe above worth more? So much so that I'm expected to voluntarily make up the difference out of my own pocket? Why is food service the one industry where simply paying your tab is insufficient, despite many industries paying that same, perfectly legal wage?

    mcdermott on
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    spool32spool32 Contrary Library Registered User regular
    I do think that eliminating tipping and raising the minimum for wait staff would have the effect of closing a lot of restaurants. I'm not really sure that's even a bad thing, though we ae doing hypercapitalism so the result would probably be a lot more fast casual chains or a lot more counter service where there used to be a wait staff.

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    ElJeffeElJeffe Not actually a mod. Roaming the streets, waving his gun around.Moderator, ClubPA mod
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Covid kinda changed the whole tipping game for me.

    I grew up with 15% being standard (like, unless you piss on my food, you're getting 15%) with 20% being for really good service. Higher percentage if I just got, like, a slice of pie or something, because a tip of 50 cents is stupid. I still tip with those guidelines, because I see no reason not to. The nice thing about inflation and cost of living is that a percentage tip automatically compensates for that!

    (Note that I always feel weird about tips for things like expensive wine. I don't drink wine, so it doesn't come up, but why should the waiter get $20 if I order a $100 bottle of wine, but only a few bucks if I order a cheap wine? The bottle isn't any harder to set on the table.)

    Anyway, then covid hits and wait staff get screwed because nobody can sit down in restaurants, so when they opened up for take out I tipped 20% when picking up just to help them out. They would serve me if they were allowed, it's not their fault they can't.

    But now restaurants are normal-ish again, and my wife and I are of two minds. She thinks they should be tipped 15-20% for pickup because it's nice. I feel that I placed the order online, my only interaction with them is them handing me a bag, and them handing me a bag is not worth $10. (Also, these tips are always collected at the time of order. So I'm tipping $10 in advance in hopes that someone will eventually hand me a bag? Sorry, no.) I usually tip a couple bucks for something like that, since I guess they put the food in the bag too, but I don't value that the same as someone catering to me for an hour.

    It's more than just putting the food in a bag and handing it to you. It could be any number of things they did along the way to ensure they got your food correct, hot and ready to go when you arrived. They put up with ridiculous questions or outlandish requests, make sure people with allergies or dietary restrictions are safe, the list goes on. Their job isn't just to wait on you and keep your glasses full. People acting like not tipping for pickup is because they somehow did less by not waiting on you at a table, when functionally their job is the same except they don't have to worry about refills or deal with your kids sneezing in their face.

    Tipping wouldn't be needed if everyone was just paid a good, living wage but instead the owners of the restaurant have played a game with their customers and employees to make them do a little dance to see who gets screwed and the answer is, no matter who loses they win.

    I'm of the opinion, if you really don't think it's worth tipping then maybe just go buy your own ingredients and chef them up yourself. You clearly see value in the food being prepared for you but can't understand that the person handing you the food is still providing you with a service.

    When I place an order online and go pick it up, the person with whom I interacted is doing less than the person at McDonald's, who at least takes my order.

    If you're asserting that the person taking my order, bringing me my food, fielding questions, and keeping my drinks refilled is worth the same tip as someone who does only one of those things, you're saying that the value of the other parts is zero. Which is weird.

    Unless your point is that any service person with whom I interact in any capacity should always receive a 20% tip, which like, no.

    I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
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    ElJeffeElJeffe Not actually a mod. Roaming the streets, waving his gun around.Moderator, ClubPA mod
    And i mean, the price of the other aspects of eating out are priced into the cost of the food I'm buying. It's not like I expect the cost of eating out to be equal to the cost of the raw materials that go into the food.

    But the point of a tip is supposed to specifically be to compensate the service. If I'm receiving a tiny fraction of the service, it's silly to pay the exact same cost.

    I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
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    MadicanMadican No face Registered User regular
    My cousin used to be a server and from her I learned that when she was stationed at the takeout counter she was still being paid waitress wages, but without the tip. Meaning every shift she had to work takeout counter, and she needed to do much more than just put food in the bag, she got paid minimum wage and nothing more.

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    Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    How I look at is thus: you have to eat, but you don't have to eat out. So eating at a restaurant, getting takeaway, Uber eats, whatever, that's a luxury and you know it. Even fast food ends up being more expensive than if you just bought the same things and made them yourself. The cook who made it is likely underpaid and overworked. My last restaurant job I worked 60-70 hours a week, pulled 10-12 hour shifts and worked outdoor events and catered for parties/weddings.

    Tipping in food service is inherently not the same as tipping for anything else specifically because servers and bartenders don't typically make much either way. If you can't see that then you don't understand what it's like to be one of these folks. Most of the time they're forced to work on holidays, too. I've worked on Thanksgiving and Christmas, sometimes both in the same year. These people are simply not being treated the same way as most other industries. Retail is probably the only comparable one.

    It always goes back to just throwing out tipping and paying these people a fair wage for once but instead we're made to believe tipping is extra when they've explicitly set that up to not be true in this case

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    ElJeffeElJeffe Not actually a mod. Roaming the streets, waving his gun around.Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited March 2023
    Yep, which is why I always tip generously when I sit down in a restaurant and receive actual service.

    Edit: and I'm not even saying I don't tip these folks! I just figure that if I'm tipping 20% to the person who spends fifteen minutes with me over the course of an hour, giving 5-10% to the person who spends 60 seconds with me is actually a pretty good deal.

    ElJeffe on
    I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
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    tbloxhamtbloxham Registered User regular
    I live in a US city with

    1) mandated $17 minimum wage
    2) full healthcare benefits for servers
    3) mandated sick days and paid leave

    And I still see the tip options at a pimped checkout creeping up to 22%/26%/30%. For like, a bagel. The no tip button is of course, 1/10th the size and hidden away in a corner under the server options button or some nonsense. And of course, all those percentages are calculated on top of tax, and any other fees.

    Tipping is ridiculous, and is just a way (in my city at least) a way to exploit people who don't understand local laws.

    If you live in a state with top up tipping, then you should tip, but if you don't then you should tip if you receive exceptional, discretionary service.

    When I first came to the US 15% was the standard at high end restaurants for good service (which was to be expected at such a place). Now it's like, creeping towards 25%. It's insanity.

    "That is cool" - Abraham Lincoln
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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    How I look at is thus: you have to eat, but you don't have to eat out. So eating at a restaurant, getting takeaway, Uber eats, whatever, that's a luxury and you know it. Even fast food ends up being more expensive than if you just bought the same things and made them yourself. The cook who made it is likely underpaid and overworked. My last restaurant job I worked 60-70 hours a week, pulled 10-12 hour shifts and worked outdoor events and catered for parties/weddings.

    I mean I have no idea how overworked my landscaper may or may not be, he's never mentioned it and I've never asked. When he tells me the charge is $200, I give him $200, I never consider tossing him $230 just because.
    Tipping in food service is inherently not the same as tipping for anything else specifically because servers and bartenders don't typically make much either way. If you can't see that then you don't understand what it's like to be one of these folks. Most of the time they're forced to work on holidays, too. I've worked on Thanksgiving and Christmas, sometimes both in the same year. These people are simply not being treated the same way as most other industries. Retail is probably the only comparable one.

    And as somebody who worked in retail even more than he worked in restaurants, this probably drives my opinion here. Because yeah, wanna talk about Thanksgivings and Christmases? Video stores (old man alert!) were open on both when I worked there. Until midnight. 365 days a year. What did I make for working until midnight on Christmas? A buck above minimum. And I was a manager. Tips? What are those? Never once, not in multiple years at multiple stores in multiple states.

    Meanwhile all the restaurants in my town were closed, but if they had been open the wait staff would have been making full minimum wage plus tips. And if I'd wanted to swing by and grab something to eat on break while I worked my shift until midnight, I'd have been expected to kick in 15% on top of my tab to the person who served me. And if they then came by to rent a movie on the way home from their shift, which likely ended before mine? They'd pay their bill, and probably never even consider the possibility of paying me any extra. Seems legit.

    This was something I didn't get spicy about back then, mind. I never questioned the custom then. It wasn't until I saw people revolt at the idea of a tip prompt at retail that my "but why the fuck not" response started to form, and I decided this entire custom is toxic and stupid and there is zero valid defense of it. If anybody is worth minimum wage...which the revolt against tip prompts clearly says people do believe...then man I'm sorry to all the servers out there (including both my mother and my past self) but I think waitstaff are probably worth minimum wage. And if they don't agree, that's between them and their employer, and I should be able to just pay my bill and get out of here just like at any other legitimate business.

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    Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Yep, which is why I always tip generously when I sit down in a restaurant and receive actual service.

    Alright next time tell them you don't need a bag, just leave the food on the curb outside and you can just do a slow roll and grab the doggie bag without stopping, that way you don't have to accidentally make eye contact with any lowly scum working the counter who is unworthy of not only your money but yes, also not worthy of spending any time speaking to nor having them speak back at you. They are lowly dogs who should be lucky if you spit in their general direction in acknowledgement.

    You probably don't need a cup either, just put your hands together and they'll dump some cola in your palms. Keep those fingers tight until you get home!

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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    Or, Local H Jay, hot take but maybe literally everybody should just pay their tab and pay should be between employer and employee. At every business.

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    Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    How I look at is thus: you have to eat, but you don't have to eat out. So eating at a restaurant, getting takeaway, Uber eats, whatever, that's a luxury and you know it. Even fast food ends up being more expensive than if you just bought the same things and made them yourself. The cook who made it is likely underpaid and overworked. My last restaurant job I worked 60-70 hours a week, pulled 10-12 hour shifts and worked outdoor events and catered for parties/weddings.

    I mean I have no idea how overworked my landscaper may or may not be, he's never mentioned it and I've never asked. When he tells me the charge is $200, I give him $200, I never consider tossing him $230 just because.
    Tipping in food service is inherently not the same as tipping for anything else specifically because servers and bartenders don't typically make much either way. If you can't see that then you don't understand what it's like to be one of these folks. Most of the time they're forced to work on holidays, too. I've worked on Thanksgiving and Christmas, sometimes both in the same year. These people are simply not being treated the same way as most other industries. Retail is probably the only comparable one.

    And as somebody who worked in retail even more than he worked in restaurants, this probably drives my opinion here. Because yeah, wanna talk about Thanksgivings and Christmases? Video stores (old man alert!) were open on both when I worked there. Until midnight. 365 days a year. What did I make for working until midnight on Christmas? A buck above minimum. And I was a manager. Tips? What are those? Never once, not in multiple years at multiple stores in multiple states.

    Meanwhile all the restaurants in my town were closed, but if they had been open the wait staff would have been making full minimum wage plus tips. And if I'd wanted to swing by and grab something to eat on break while I worked my shift until midnight, I'd have been expected to kick in 15% on top of my tab to the person who served me. And if they then came by to rent a movie on the way home from their shift, which likely ended before mine? They'd pay their bill, and probably never even consider the possibility of paying me any extra. Seems legit.

    This was something I didn't get spicy about back then, mind. I never questioned the custom then. It wasn't until I saw people revolt at the idea of a tip prompt at retail that my "but why the fuck not" response started to form, and I decided this entire custom is toxic and stupid and there is zero valid defense of it. If anybody is worth minimum wage...which the revolt against tip prompts clearly says people do believe...then man I'm sorry to all the servers out there (including both my mother and my past self) but I think waitstaff are probably worth minimum wage. And if they don't agree, that's between them and their employer, and I should be able to just pay my bill and get out of here just like at any other legitimate business.

    *Shrug* I had a gun waved in my face when I was a manager at pizza hut

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    Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Or, Local H Jay, hot take but maybe literally everybody should just pay their tab and pay should be between employer and employee. At every business.

    This fantasy land you speak of, is it possible to get there by boat or perhaps giant eagle

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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    How I look at is thus: you have to eat, but you don't have to eat out. So eating at a restaurant, getting takeaway, Uber eats, whatever, that's a luxury and you know it. Even fast food ends up being more expensive than if you just bought the same things and made them yourself. The cook who made it is likely underpaid and overworked. My last restaurant job I worked 60-70 hours a week, pulled 10-12 hour shifts and worked outdoor events and catered for parties/weddings.

    I mean I have no idea how overworked my landscaper may or may not be, he's never mentioned it and I've never asked. When he tells me the charge is $200, I give him $200, I never consider tossing him $230 just because.
    Tipping in food service is inherently not the same as tipping for anything else specifically because servers and bartenders don't typically make much either way. If you can't see that then you don't understand what it's like to be one of these folks. Most of the time they're forced to work on holidays, too. I've worked on Thanksgiving and Christmas, sometimes both in the same year. These people are simply not being treated the same way as most other industries. Retail is probably the only comparable one.

    And as somebody who worked in retail even more than he worked in restaurants, this probably drives my opinion here. Because yeah, wanna talk about Thanksgivings and Christmases? Video stores (old man alert!) were open on both when I worked there. Until midnight. 365 days a year. What did I make for working until midnight on Christmas? A buck above minimum. And I was a manager. Tips? What are those? Never once, not in multiple years at multiple stores in multiple states.

    Meanwhile all the restaurants in my town were closed, but if they had been open the wait staff would have been making full minimum wage plus tips. And if I'd wanted to swing by and grab something to eat on break while I worked my shift until midnight, I'd have been expected to kick in 15% on top of my tab to the person who served me. And if they then came by to rent a movie on the way home from their shift, which likely ended before mine? They'd pay their bill, and probably never even consider the possibility of paying me any extra. Seems legit.

    This was something I didn't get spicy about back then, mind. I never questioned the custom then. It wasn't until I saw people revolt at the idea of a tip prompt at retail that my "but why the fuck not" response started to form, and I decided this entire custom is toxic and stupid and there is zero valid defense of it. If anybody is worth minimum wage...which the revolt against tip prompts clearly says people do believe...then man I'm sorry to all the servers out there (including both my mother and my past self) but I think waitstaff are probably worth minimum wage. And if they don't agree, that's between them and their employer, and I should be able to just pay my bill and get out of here just like at any other legitimate business.

    *Shrug* I had a gun waved in my face when I was a manager at pizza hut

    That blows.

    I got blown up and shot at on Christmas Eve. But I was getting paid fairly decently for that, at least.

    Everything from abusive customers to outright robbery and violence happens in regular untipped retail and fast food, it's really entirely irrelevant to the conversation of whether customers should be expected to just hand people extra money not owed when the bill arrives.

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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Or, Local H Jay, hot take but maybe literally everybody should just pay their tab and pay should be between employer and employee. At every business.

    This fantasy land you speak of, is it possible to get there by boat or perhaps giant eagle

    That fantasy land is literally every business that is not a restaurant or hair salon what are you talking about

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    Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    How I look at is thus: you have to eat, but you don't have to eat out. So eating at a restaurant, getting takeaway, Uber eats, whatever, that's a luxury and you know it. Even fast food ends up being more expensive than if you just bought the same things and made them yourself. The cook who made it is likely underpaid and overworked. My last restaurant job I worked 60-70 hours a week, pulled 10-12 hour shifts and worked outdoor events and catered for parties/weddings.

    I mean I have no idea how overworked my landscaper may or may not be, he's never mentioned it and I've never asked. When he tells me the charge is $200, I give him $200, I never consider tossing him $230 just because.
    Tipping in food service is inherently not the same as tipping for anything else specifically because servers and bartenders don't typically make much either way. If you can't see that then you don't understand what it's like to be one of these folks. Most of the time they're forced to work on holidays, too. I've worked on Thanksgiving and Christmas, sometimes both in the same year. These people are simply not being treated the same way as most other industries. Retail is probably the only comparable one.

    And as somebody who worked in retail even more than he worked in restaurants, this probably drives my opinion here. Because yeah, wanna talk about Thanksgivings and Christmases? Video stores (old man alert!) were open on both when I worked there. Until midnight. 365 days a year. What did I make for working until midnight on Christmas? A buck above minimum. And I was a manager. Tips? What are those? Never once, not in multiple years at multiple stores in multiple states.

    Meanwhile all the restaurants in my town were closed, but if they had been open the wait staff would have been making full minimum wage plus tips. And if I'd wanted to swing by and grab something to eat on break while I worked my shift until midnight, I'd have been expected to kick in 15% on top of my tab to the person who served me. And if they then came by to rent a movie on the way home from their shift, which likely ended before mine? They'd pay their bill, and probably never even consider the possibility of paying me any extra. Seems legit.

    This was something I didn't get spicy about back then, mind. I never questioned the custom then. It wasn't until I saw people revolt at the idea of a tip prompt at retail that my "but why the fuck not" response started to form, and I decided this entire custom is toxic and stupid and there is zero valid defense of it. If anybody is worth minimum wage...which the revolt against tip prompts clearly says people do believe...then man I'm sorry to all the servers out there (including both my mother and my past self) but I think waitstaff are probably worth minimum wage. And if they don't agree, that's between them and their employer, and I should be able to just pay my bill and get out of here just like at any other legitimate business.

    *Shrug* I had a gun waved in my face when I was a manager at pizza hut

    My assistant manager contracted out a murder working retail.

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    Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Or, Local H Jay, hot take but maybe literally everybody should just pay their tab and pay should be between employer and employee. At every business.

    This fantasy land you speak of, is it possible to get there by boat or perhaps giant eagle

    That fantasy land is literally every business that is not a restaurant or hair salon what are you talking about

    Pay should be between employer and employee is already inherently disagree with, pay should be transparent among everyone so nobody gets dicked around. Everyone should get paid a fair wage. In a perfect world it maybe would be as you describe but we're so far off from that. So until we actually go about fixing the shitty broken system, we still need to take care of people working in the service industry in the meantime. Disagreeing with the concept of tipping doesn't change the reality of the situation for people, right now, working those jobs.

    One of the few ways to actually make a change would be unions but America also hates those, and Biden has undermined them pretty badly recently. Starbucks is getting smacked for shitting all over any employees trying to start a union. It's really hard for these people to effect meaningful change when the people at the top will stop at nothing to prevent that, to keep labor cheap.

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    ElJeffeElJeffe Not actually a mod. Roaming the streets, waving his gun around.Moderator, ClubPA mod
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Yep, which is why I always tip generously when I sit down in a restaurant and receive actual service.

    Alright next time tell them you don't need a bag, just leave the food on the curb outside and you can just do a slow roll and grab the doggie bag without stopping, that way you don't have to accidentally make eye contact with any lowly scum working the counter who is unworthy of not only your money but yes, also not worthy of spending any time speaking to nor having them speak back at you. They are lowly dogs who should be lucky if you spit in their general direction in acknowledgement.

    You probably don't need a cup either, just put your hands together and they'll dump some cola in your palms. Keep those fingers tight until you get home!

    Ah, I see we've jumped directly to the "ridiculous hyperbole" segment of the discussion.

    I guess I should just hand over my ATM card next time I eat out, and tell the server they're entitled to 10% of my net income in perpetuity!

    Okay, your turn. Maybe go with something about how I probably just want to drive by a server and pee on them, like the human urinal cake they are.

    I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
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    Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    Ah but they're not doing anything right, just putting the food in a bag eh? Oh you didn't want your food sitting on the curb in 30 degree weather? You wanted someone to hand your your food like an adult! A adult who could cook for themselves but would rather have someone else do it, but instead chooses to play along with the business owners, and take it out on the employees to save yourself a few bucks; when it you really cared about saving money you probably wouldn't be eating take out now huh

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    SmokeStacksSmokeStacks Registered User regular
    I don't like tipping and I don't think I should have to do it. It is absolutely not my responsibility to directly pay an employee's wages. So, because I don't like the system, I did my best to remove myself from it. I just sorta stopped going out to eat at restaurants and stopped going to bars. I'll still tip on the rare occasions that I do end up in a traditionally tipped location, but I avoid going to a place like that if I can.

    I don't use it very often, but for food delivery I basically view tipping less as a gratuity now and more of a personal laziness tax. As an example, I really don't feel like cooking dinner tonight, so I think I'm going to just get some pizza. I really don't feel like going to the place and getting it, so my tip to the driver is effectively me paying them money to do something I don't feel like doing. The fee for delivery is a fee charged by the pizza place to make a delivery driver available to me, and the tip is me paying that driver to bring me pizza so I don't have to get dressed and go get it myself. Mental gymnastics maybe, but it works for me.

    I think tip pooling is important because otherwise back of house staff get stiffed, but at the same time it is also pretty fucked because its another layer to a company shunting their economic responsibility off on someone else. Not only is the customer now expected to pay a portion of the labor costs for their server, but now their server is expected to pay a portion of the labor cost for the cooks/dishwashers/busboys/etc. Its even worse when its informal, because then servers feel like they have to "lose some of their money" to other staff members, and the other staff members get very little kicked back to them as a result.

    I've worked in multiple service industry positions when I was young, and once had a coworker who literally survived on tips - between child support and various other court judgements he had so many deductions that he legitimately made $0 on paper every payday. I thought he was full of shit until he showed me a pay stub and one of the $0 checks he received. 100% of his income was due to unreported cash tips, it was wild. He was a very personable guy and made a ton of money in tips, but he basically had to be.

    tl;dr - if you don't tip than you're an asshole, but if you do tip than you're directly supporting an intensely shitty industry practice that needs to die. The only winning move is not to play.

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    ElJeffeElJeffe Not actually a mod. Roaming the streets, waving his gun around.Moderator, ClubPA mod
    Ah but they're not doing anything right, just putting the food in a bag eh? Oh you didn't want your food sitting on the curb in 30 degree weather? You wanted someone to hand your your food like an adult! A adult who could cook for themselves but would rather have someone else do it, but instead chooses to play along with the business owners, and take it out on the employees to save yourself a few bucks; when it you really cared about saving money you probably wouldn't be eating take out now huh

    You're excellent at this game, well played!

    I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
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    Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    Idk I just feel like I can't have this conversation with people who seemingly haven't worked a day of their lives doing this kinda work. I've nearly have my brain blown out the back of my skull for 14 dollars an hour, I can't pretend to sit here and listen about how counter people "do nothing" but put things in bags when they probably have to deal with more horseshit in one day than you have to in a year, maybe your entire life. Like if you own a house? You probably have no fucking clue what life is like for these people. To me, my side is about basic empathy. And the other side is about apathy.

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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    I've worked in multiple service industry positions when I was young, and once had a coworker who literally survived on tips - between child support and various other court judgements he had so many deductions that he legitimately made $0 on paper every payday. I thought he was full of shit until he showed me a pay stub and one of the $0 checks he received. 100% of his income was due to unreported cash tips, it was wild. He was a very personable guy and made a ton of money in tips, but he basically had to be.

    $0 checks are actually pretty common...if you're making half decent tips, and in a state with a tip credit down to $2.13 an hour, it's really not hard for normal witholdings (even absent child support) to eat up most or even all of your paycheck. But the thing to remember is that tips are pay.. So without that $2.13 an hour that got gobbled up by withholdings, they'd have to actually reach into their tips to pay their taxes, just like anybody else. Because pay is pay.
    Ah but they're not doing anything right, just putting the food in a bag eh? Oh you didn't want your food sitting on the curb in 30 degree weather? You wanted someone to hand your your food like an adult! A adult who could cook for themselves but would rather have someone else do it, but instead chooses to play along with the business owners, and take it out on the employees to save yourself a few bucks; when it you really cared about saving money you probably wouldn't be eating take out now huh

    If I'm a little light on cash, is it okay if I just take the expo out back and blow them for doing their job?
    Pay should be between employer and employee is already inherently disagree with, pay should be transparent among everyone so nobody gets dicked around. Everyone should get paid a fair wage. In a perfect world it maybe would be as you describe but we're so far off from that. So until we actually go about fixing the shitty broken system, we still need to take care of people working in the service industry in the meantime. Disagreeing with the concept of tipping doesn't change the reality of the situation for people, right now, working those jobs.

    One of the few ways to actually make a change would be unions but America also hates those, and Biden has undermined them pretty badly recently. Starbucks is getting smacked for shitting all over any employees trying to start a union. It's really hard for these people to effect meaningful change when the people at the top will stop at nothing to prevent that, to keep labor cheap.

    I mean obviously I'm not a libertarian so the "within the confines of whatever fair labor laws our society enacts" with a dose of "hopefully with some healthy collective bargaining and transparency" was implied. But even absent that, frankly, as a customer I don't feel I owe anything more than the bill. I can order a burger in Barcelona, pay the price on the ticket and leave, and everything's fine. That's how it should be here.

    Half the servers in the US never give the faintest whiff of a shit how much the people serving them in untipped positions make, after all. The servers that came and rented videos from me never cared, to be sure. Which is fine! They paid their tab, I got paid by my employer, and if I didn't like it I could quit. Why the same can't apply to the servers is fucking beyond me.

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    zagdrobzagdrob Registered User regular
    Im a generous tipper for service and delivery but I don't tip for takeout unless it's like carside to go or I ask the person for a bunch of extra sauces and stuff when I come in to get my food.

    If all the person is doing is standing there and handing me a bag of food I don't think that warrants a tip anymore than I tip the person who hands me my drinks and food at the drive thru window.

    Honestly with takeout where I'm just handed the bag and go I always figured the tip part is just an artifact from the standard payment system for servers.

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    electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    Idk I just feel like I can't have this conversation with people who seemingly haven't worked a day of their lives doing this kinda work. I've nearly have my brain blown out the back of my skull for 14 dollars an hour, I can't pretend to sit here and listen about how counter people "do nothing" but put things in bags when they probably have to deal with more horseshit in one day than you have to in a year, maybe your entire life. Like if you own a house? You probably have no fucking clue what life is like for these people. To me, my side is about basic empathy. And the other side is about apathy.

    So you reckon 20% extra about covers the risk then? That makes all the difference?

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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    Idk I just feel like I can't have this conversation with people who seemingly haven't worked a day of their lives doing this kinda work. I've nearly have my brain blown out the back of my skull for 14 dollars an hour, I can't pretend to sit here and listen about how counter people "do nothing" but put things in bags when they probably have to deal with more horseshit in one day than you have to in a year, maybe your entire life. Like if you own a house? You probably have no fucking clue what life is like for these people. To me, my side is about basic empathy. And the other side is about apathy.

    GameStop employees have been murdered while making five cents above minimum wage.

    This has fuck all to do with tips.

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    tyrannustyrannus i am not fat Registered User regular
    Idk I just feel like I can't have this conversation with people who seemingly haven't worked a day of their lives doing this kinda work. I've nearly have my brain blown out the back of my skull for 14 dollars an hour, I can't pretend to sit here and listen about how counter people "do nothing" but put things in bags when they probably have to deal with more horseshit in one day than you have to in a year, maybe your entire life. Like if you own a house? You probably have no fucking clue what life is like for these people. To me, my side is about basic empathy. And the other side is about apathy.

    do you tip your EMTs

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    Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Idk I just feel like I can't have this conversation with people who seemingly haven't worked a day of their lives doing this kinda work. I've nearly have my brain blown out the back of my skull for 14 dollars an hour, I can't pretend to sit here and listen about how counter people "do nothing" but put things in bags when they probably have to deal with more horseshit in one day than you have to in a year, maybe your entire life. Like if you own a house? You probably have no fucking clue what life is like for these people. To me, my side is about basic empathy. And the other side is about apathy.

    GameStop employees have been murdered while making five cents above minimum wage.

    This has fuck all to do with tips.

    It has everything to do with tips when servers and bartenders have been made to rely on them. We all agree this is bad. Until then, tip your servers or you're just a cunt

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    Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    tyrannus wrote: »
    Idk I just feel like I can't have this conversation with people who seemingly haven't worked a day of their lives doing this kinda work. I've nearly have my brain blown out the back of my skull for 14 dollars an hour, I can't pretend to sit here and listen about how counter people "do nothing" but put things in bags when they probably have to deal with more horseshit in one day than you have to in a year, maybe your entire life. Like if you own a house? You probably have no fucking clue what life is like for these people. To me, my side is about basic empathy. And the other side is about apathy.

    do you tip your EMTs

    No because my last ambulance was 1400 dollars and I'm still in debt from it, but sure if they hadn't destroyed atleast a hundred dollars in clothing cutting it off my body I'd have considered it

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    SmokeStacksSmokeStacks Registered User regular
    Idk I just feel like I can't have this conversation with people who seemingly haven't worked a day of their lives doing this kinda work. I've nearly have my brain blown out the back of my skull for 14 dollars an hour, I can't pretend to sit here and listen about how counter people "do nothing" but put things in bags when they probably have to deal with more horseshit in one day than you have to in a year, maybe your entire life. Like if you own a house? You probably have no fucking clue what life is like for these people. To me, my side is about basic empathy. And the other side is about apathy.

    As much as I am loathe to agree with ElJeffe on any subject at any time there are many customer facing positions that are not expected to be tipped that involve a risk of violence. Do you tip the night clerk at a gas station? Do you tip the pharmacy technician? Do you tip the employee at the bank when you go in to make a deposit?

    If you think that people in those positions should be paid more as a sort of 'hazard pay' than yeah, that makes sense, but their employer should do that, not you or I.

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    tbloxhamtbloxham Registered User regular
    Idk I just feel like I can't have this conversation with people who seemingly haven't worked a day of their lives doing this kinda work. I've nearly have my brain blown out the back of my skull for 14 dollars an hour, I can't pretend to sit here and listen about how counter people "do nothing" but put things in bags when they probably have to deal with more horseshit in one day than you have to in a year, maybe your entire life. Like if you own a house? You probably have no fucking clue what life is like for these people. To me, my side is about basic empathy. And the other side is about apathy.

    Why is it suddenly necessary for me (in a place with $17 minimum wage, mandatory healthcare and paid time off) to suddenly tip 22% on the after tax cost for a rotisserie chicken at the market?

    I voted for all the laws to make hourly employment less predatory. And I still need to tip, more than ever it seems!

    "That is cool" - Abraham Lincoln
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    Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    If I knew the gas station clerk's wages depended on tips fuck yea I'd tip them every single time no hesitation

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    Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    tbloxham wrote: »
    Idk I just feel like I can't have this conversation with people who seemingly haven't worked a day of their lives doing this kinda work. I've nearly have my brain blown out the back of my skull for 14 dollars an hour, I can't pretend to sit here and listen about how counter people "do nothing" but put things in bags when they probably have to deal with more horseshit in one day than you have to in a year, maybe your entire life. Like if you own a house? You probably have no fucking clue what life is like for these people. To me, my side is about basic empathy. And the other side is about apathy.

    Why is it suddenly necessary for me (in a place with $17 minimum wage, mandatory healthcare and paid time off) to suddenly tip 22% on the after tax cost for a rotisserie chicken at the market?

    I voted for all the laws to make hourly employment less predatory. And I still need to tip, more than ever it seems!

    I voted for a lot of things that ultimately never came to pass seems like a flaw in the system we should like rise up or something

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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Idk I just feel like I can't have this conversation with people who seemingly haven't worked a day of their lives doing this kinda work. I've nearly have my brain blown out the back of my skull for 14 dollars an hour, I can't pretend to sit here and listen about how counter people "do nothing" but put things in bags when they probably have to deal with more horseshit in one day than you have to in a year, maybe your entire life. Like if you own a house? You probably have no fucking clue what life is like for these people. To me, my side is about basic empathy. And the other side is about apathy.

    GameStop employees have been murdered while making five cents above minimum wage.

    This has fuck all to do with tips.

    It has everything to do with tips when servers and bartenders have been made to rely on them. We all agree this is bad. Until then, tip your servers or you're just a cunt

    They don't rely on them, if not a single patron tipped servers and bartenders would make, by law, the exact same wage (less a nickel) that GameStop employee was making as they gasped their last breath. Tips are only ever above the minimum wage.

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    PoorochondriacPoorochondriac Ah, man Ah, jeezRegistered User regular
    I make decent money, and my taxes are only occasionally used to help people, so I tip generously wherever given the opportunity to do so. I've got more than I need, a lot of folks need more than they have, it doesn't hurt me materially to toss some extra bones someone's way.

    I worked as a graveyard shift valet for five years, tips kept me afloat in a time when I really needed them, I'll never forget the nights when an extra five bucks was the difference between skipping a meal and not. Even though it was a decade ago, I can still remember the names of damn near everybody who gave me a twenty. It's kinda nice to think I might be The Twenty Dollar Guy to somebody, somewhere, it's nice to be thought of fondly.

    If we had a better social safety net in this country, I'd probably still think less of shitty tippers - I don't think it's weird to look more kindly on the unconditionally-generous than on folks who attach strings. But I probably wouldn't think as much less.

    But also - I'm just some fuckin' guy. My opinion of someone only matters if they want it to matter. It sometimes feels like folks who are against tipping want approval for that opinion, want to be told it's okay, because they want to be the subject of a positive opinion but also don't want to change their behavior, and that seems like a tough chasm to build a bridge across.

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