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Tipping/Gratuity Culture

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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    tyrannus wrote: »
    Idk I just feel like I can't have this conversation with people who seemingly haven't worked a day of their lives doing this kinda work. I've nearly have my brain blown out the back of my skull for 14 dollars an hour, I can't pretend to sit here and listen about how counter people "do nothing" but put things in bags when they probably have to deal with more horseshit in one day than you have to in a year, maybe your entire life. Like if you own a house? You probably have no fucking clue what life is like for these people. To me, my side is about basic empathy. And the other side is about apathy.

    do you tip your EMTs

    No because my last ambulance was 1400 dollars and I'm still in debt from it, but sure if they hadn't destroyed atleast a hundred dollars in clothing cutting it off my body I'd have considered it

    Do you have any idea how much the actual EMT or ambulance driver made of that $1,400? Probably not.

    It's often not that much. In many cities, it's not a living wage.

    You should consider tipping next time, maybe?

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    Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Idk I just feel like I can't have this conversation with people who seemingly haven't worked a day of their lives doing this kinda work. I've nearly have my brain blown out the back of my skull for 14 dollars an hour, I can't pretend to sit here and listen about how counter people "do nothing" but put things in bags when they probably have to deal with more horseshit in one day than you have to in a year, maybe your entire life. Like if you own a house? You probably have no fucking clue what life is like for these people. To me, my side is about basic empathy. And the other side is about apathy.

    GameStop employees have been murdered while making five cents above minimum wage.

    This has fuck all to do with tips.

    It has everything to do with tips when servers and bartenders have been made to rely on them. We all agree this is bad. Until then, tip your servers or you're just a cunt

    They don't rely on them, if not a single patron tipped servers and bartenders would make, by law, the exact same wage (less a nickel) that GameStop employee was making as they gasped their last breath. Tips are only ever above the minimum wage.

    This is understood. I believe everyone should get wages that actually like, let them live. If it became normal to tip every minimum wage worker, I'd happily do so. Because I understand that makes a difference and sadly, the people who actually could make meaningful change seem to not care. So instead yeah, I'd pay more so people can feed their kids and pay rent, if need be.

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    zagdrobzagdrob Registered User regular
    Also I'm not sure if things have changed, but when I worked in food service (20+ years ago) the non-server host / hostess positions that usually handle takeout were paid a wage and not tip based.

    I mean sometimes people would get double duty and some business owners suck, but the cashier / host / hostess / runner type jobs don't or aren't supported to rely on tips.

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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    If I knew the gas station clerk's wages depended on tips fuck yea I'd tip them every single time no hesitation

    Oh my god I actually do need to explain the tip credit to you don't I.

    Many retail workers make at or near minimum wage. Which is the exact amount that every single server and bartender is entitled to from their employer, in every state in the US. Servers and bartenders can only ever make more than minimum wage, never less.. Ever.

    So yeah, if he wants to make enough to eat and live he could probably use a tip just as much as the average server. Maybe more so. Most servers are making more than he does.

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    Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    tyrannus wrote: »
    Idk I just feel like I can't have this conversation with people who seemingly haven't worked a day of their lives doing this kinda work. I've nearly have my brain blown out the back of my skull for 14 dollars an hour, I can't pretend to sit here and listen about how counter people "do nothing" but put things in bags when they probably have to deal with more horseshit in one day than you have to in a year, maybe your entire life. Like if you own a house? You probably have no fucking clue what life is like for these people. To me, my side is about basic empathy. And the other side is about apathy.

    do you tip your EMTs

    No because my last ambulance was 1400 dollars and I'm still in debt from it, but sure if they hadn't destroyed atleast a hundred dollars in clothing cutting it off my body I'd have considered it

    Do you have any idea how much the actual EMT or ambulance driver made of that $1,400? Probably not.

    It's often not that much. In many cities, it's not a living wage.

    You should consider tipping next time, maybe?

    I'll try to get my wallet out next time they take away my comatose body, or maybe I'll remember as I walk out the building in a giant t shirt and coming down off narcan

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    SmokeStacksSmokeStacks Registered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Do you have any idea how much the actual EMT or ambulance driver made of that $1,400? Probably not.

    It's often not that much. In many cities, it's not a living wage.

    You should consider tipping next time, maybe?

    EMTs and Paramedics are one of those weird positions where your average person thinks they make a good wage due to the highly technical nature of their position, but in reality in the majority of the country they make fuckall, especially considering how demanding their job is. In terms of pay rates they're basically CNAs but with a cool van.

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    Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    If I knew the gas station clerk's wages depended on tips fuck yea I'd tip them every single time no hesitation

    Oh my god I actually do need to explain the tip credit to you don't I.

    Many retail workers make at or near minimum wage. Which is the exact amount that every single server and bartender is entitled to from their employer, in every state in the US. Servers and bartenders can only ever make more than minimum wage, never less.. Ever.

    So yeah, if he wants to make enough to eat and live he could probably use a tip just as much as the average server. Maybe more so. Most servers are making more than he does.

    I honestly don't believe that because most servers make all their money on weekend shifts and there isn't even a guarantee they'll get to work all three days so, in effect your saying "in a perfect scenario they make X amount which is more than this hourly!" And yeah I can tell you right away it's more common to walk away with no tips than 100+ or whatever, especially after paying out other people or pooling. You might make 100 but see that get carved up in ways you can't even control.

    Minimum wage is bad. Tipping is bad. We need to pay people more, and we need to get away from tipping. But then in the meantime we can't just keep taking advantage of cheap labor that's enabled by the idea they'll make it up with tips.

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    tyrannustyrannus i am not fat Registered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Do you have any idea how much the actual EMT or ambulance driver made of that $1,400? Probably not.

    It's often not that much. In many cities, it's not a living wage.

    You should consider tipping next time, maybe?

    EMTs and Paramedics are one of those weird positions where your average person thinks they make a good wage due to the highly technical nature of their position, but in reality in the majority of the country they make fuckall, especially considering how demanding their job is. In terms of pay rates they're basically CNAs but with a cool van.

    I want to say "we" because I've only done a handful of ride alongs because I wanted to volunteer and help people.

    but there was one time I was spat on and cursed at and attacked and then I stopped doing it. and I still wanna do the firefighter thing because at least they're paid well for it

    but yeah I remember the younger guys bragging about getting $18 or $20 an hour

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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited March 2023
    mcdermott wrote: »
    If I knew the gas station clerk's wages depended on tips fuck yea I'd tip them every single time no hesitation

    Oh my god I actually do need to explain the tip credit to you don't I.

    Many retail workers make at or near minimum wage. Which is the exact amount that every single server and bartender is entitled to from their employer, in every state in the US. Servers and bartenders can only ever make more than minimum wage, never less.. Ever.

    So yeah, if he wants to make enough to eat and live he could probably use a tip just as much as the average server. Maybe more so. Most servers are making more than he does.

    I honestly don't believe that because most servers make all their money on weekend shifts and there isn't even a guarantee they'll get to work all three days so, in effect your saying "in a perfect scenario they make X amount which is more than this hourly!" And yeah I can tell you right away it's more common to walk away with no tips than 100+ or whatever, especially after paying out other people or pooling. You might make 100 but see that get carved up in ways you can't even control.cheap labor that's enabled by the idea they'll make it up with tips.

    Maybe I’m being unclear.

    Every single server in the US must be paid the full minimum wage. Period. There is no such thing as a lower “tipped minimum.” Doesn’t exist. A server can only ever make more than the full minimum wage, not less.

    Their tips may be counted toward part of this, yes. But for every hour worked, they will make the minimum wage. Or more.

    Edit: I realize fighting for hours is a thing in food service, obviously. Full time isn’t a guarantee. But retail is little different.

    mcdermott on
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    OghulkOghulk Tinychat Janitor TinychatRegistered User regular
    I tip wait staff, but I usually don't add a tip to nearly any check-out kiosk that has it (and fucking near everything has it these days). I do 20% on restaurants where I order take-out though, which might be more instinct than any fully-fledged thought out inconsistent logic

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    Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    If I knew the gas station clerk's wages depended on tips fuck yea I'd tip them every single time no hesitation

    Oh my god I actually do need to explain the tip credit to you don't I.

    Many retail workers make at or near minimum wage. Which is the exact amount that every single server and bartender is entitled to from their employer, in every state in the US. Servers and bartenders can only ever make more than minimum wage, never less.. Ever.

    So yeah, if he wants to make enough to eat and live he could probably use a tip just as much as the average server. Maybe more so. Most servers are making more than he does.

    I honestly don't believe that because most servers make all their money on weekend shifts and there isn't even a guarantee they'll get to work all three days so, in effect your saying "in a perfect scenario they make X amount which is more than this hourly!" And yeah I can tell you right away it's more common to walk away with no tips than 100+ or whatever, especially after paying out other people or pooling. You might make 100 but see that get carved up in ways you can't even control.cheap labor that's enabled by the idea they'll make it up with tips.

    Maybe I’m being unclear.

    Every single server in the US must be paid the full minimum wage. Period. There is no such thing as a lower “tipped minimum.” Doesn’t exist. A server can only ever make more than the full minimum wage, not less.

    Their tips may be counted toward part of this, yes. But for every hour worked, they will make the minimum wage. Or more.

    Yes. And those same tips can then manipulated by the restaurant as they see fit, either pooled or divided among other staff. The server themselves has very little say over now the money is handled.

    End of the day, just pay people. It's not hard but American business owners act like paying people is the worst thing. Don't like tipping? Then you should help change the status quo, instead of blaming staff or accusing them of doing nothing worthy of a tip when the tip is why they are even there to begin with.

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    shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Doodmann wrote: »
    IMBTA but pretty much only tip when socially shamed into it or when I legitimately have wonderful service or if I have a parasocial relationship with the worker (i.e. my local bar gets tipped more generously than the waiter at applebees in some other state).

    Anyway, tipping is racist and anti-american: https://www.npr.org/2021/03/22/980047710/the-land-of-the-fee

    Tipping: the one time pre-Civil-War America had it right.

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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited March 2023
    mcdermott wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    If I knew the gas station clerk's wages depended on tips fuck yea I'd tip them every single time no hesitation

    Oh my god I actually do need to explain the tip credit to you don't I.

    Many retail workers make at or near minimum wage. Which is the exact amount that every single server and bartender is entitled to from their employer, in every state in the US. Servers and bartenders can only ever make more than minimum wage, never less.. Ever.

    So yeah, if he wants to make enough to eat and live he could probably use a tip just as much as the average server. Maybe more so. Most servers are making more than he does.

    I honestly don't believe that because most servers make all their money on weekend shifts and there isn't even a guarantee they'll get to work all three days so, in effect your saying "in a perfect scenario they make X amount which is more than this hourly!" And yeah I can tell you right away it's more common to walk away with no tips than 100+ or whatever, especially after paying out other people or pooling. You might make 100 but see that get carved up in ways you can't even control.cheap labor that's enabled by the idea they'll make it up with tips.

    Maybe I’m being unclear.

    Every single server in the US must be paid the full minimum wage. Period. There is no such thing as a lower “tipped minimum.” Doesn’t exist. A server can only ever make more than the full minimum wage, not less.

    Their tips may be counted toward part of this, yes. But for every hour worked, they will make the minimum wage. Or more.

    Yes. And those same tips can then manipulated by the restaurant as they see fit, either pooled or divided among other staff. The server themselves has very little say over now the money is handled.

    End of the day, just pay people. It's not hard but American business owners act like paying people is the worst thing. Don't like tipping? Then you should help change the status quo, instead of blaming staff or accusing them of doing nothing worthy of a tip when the tip is why they are even there to begin with.

    To be clear, the server cannot take home less than minimum wage, even after tip outs and pooling. They must make the full minimum wage, in their pocket (less taxes, same as any employee), for every hour worked.

    Servers make minimum wage or more, always. Never less.

    They are no more dependent on tips than retail employees.

    mcdermott on
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    Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    If I knew the gas station clerk's wages depended on tips fuck yea I'd tip them every single time no hesitation

    Oh my god I actually do need to explain the tip credit to you don't I.

    Many retail workers make at or near minimum wage. Which is the exact amount that every single server and bartender is entitled to from their employer, in every state in the US. Servers and bartenders can only ever make more than minimum wage, never less.. Ever.

    So yeah, if he wants to make enough to eat and live he could probably use a tip just as much as the average server. Maybe more so. Most servers are making more than he does.

    I honestly don't believe that because most servers make all their money on weekend shifts and there isn't even a guarantee they'll get to work all three days so, in effect your saying "in a perfect scenario they make X amount which is more than this hourly!" And yeah I can tell you right away it's more common to walk away with no tips than 100+ or whatever, especially after paying out other people or pooling. You might make 100 but see that get carved up in ways you can't even control.cheap labor that's enabled by the idea they'll make it up with tips.

    Maybe I’m being unclear.

    Every single server in the US must be paid the full minimum wage. Period. There is no such thing as a lower “tipped minimum.” Doesn’t exist. A server can only ever make more than the full minimum wage, not less.

    Their tips may be counted toward part of this, yes. But for every hour worked, they will make the minimum wage. Or more.

    Yes. And those same tips can then manipulated by the restaurant as they see fit, either pooled or divided among other staff. The server themselves has very little say over now the money is handled.

    End of the day, just pay people. It's not hard but American business owners act like paying people is the worst thing. Don't like tipping? Then you should help change the status quo, instead of blaming staff or accusing them of doing nothing worthy of a tip when the tip is why they are even there to begin with.

    To be clear, the server cannot take home less than minimum wage, even after tip outs and pooling. They must make the full minimum wage, in their pocket (less taxes, same as any employee), for every hour worked.

    Servers make minimum wage or more, always. Never less.

    They are no more dependent on tips than retail employees.

    Yeah I got that the first time you said it. It doesn't mean it is any less demeaning or demoralizing to work an industry where the tips are the incentive only to have that taken from you directly and chopped up without your input or consent. I've done retail, I've done customer service, I've cooked, I've served. I do the same great job, tipped or not, every time. You might say "they're no less dependent on tips than retail employees" yeah well I knew a lot more single mothers who worked as servers and bartenders and I'll tell you what, they sure felt like they relied on those tips. I think once again this is a personal thing to me, and a lot of people lack the perspective of working these jobs for a living. And not like, a summer job or something you did in college; I mean I did nothing but cook and serve food from when I was 16 until a few years ago.

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    SmokeStacksSmokeStacks Registered User regular
    Its important to note that although a tipped employee who makes less than the federal minimum in a shift in combined tipped wages plus tips will have to have the difference made up by their employer, if you are a tipped employee who has to do this on a regular basis you will be fired (in places where they can get away with firing you) or have your hours slashed to the bone (in places where they cannot).

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    Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    Here's a good example of retail vs food service: at best buy, after my first year, I had 2 weeks of PTO! And sick days! And the option for a 401k... And health insurance.

    I've only worked like 2 or 3 cooking jobs that offered PTO, the retirement home and Alamo Drafthouse come to mind. None of them offered health insurance.

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    tbloxhamtbloxham Registered User regular
    tbloxham wrote: »
    Idk I just feel like I can't have this conversation with people who seemingly haven't worked a day of their lives doing this kinda work. I've nearly have my brain blown out the back of my skull for 14 dollars an hour, I can't pretend to sit here and listen about how counter people "do nothing" but put things in bags when they probably have to deal with more horseshit in one day than you have to in a year, maybe your entire life. Like if you own a house? You probably have no fucking clue what life is like for these people. To me, my side is about basic empathy. And the other side is about apathy.

    Why is it suddenly necessary for me (in a place with $17 minimum wage, mandatory healthcare and paid time off) to suddenly tip 22% on the after tax cost for a rotisserie chicken at the market?

    I voted for all the laws to make hourly employment less predatory. And I still need to tip, more than ever it seems!

    I voted for a lot of things that ultimately never came to pass seems like a flaw in the system we should like rise up or something

    The laws did pass! They are in force. All workers are receiving a $17 minimum wage, healthcare benefits and paid leave for vacations and sick days. And yet, I'm expected to grin and use a malicious pin pad attempting to defraud me out of 20% of a check when I buy a coffee.

    "That is cool" - Abraham Lincoln
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    LostNinjaLostNinja Registered User regular
    edited March 2023
    Ah but they're not doing anything right, just putting the food in a bag eh? Oh you didn't want your food sitting on the curb in 30 degree weather? You wanted someone to hand your your food like an adult! A adult who could cook for themselves but would rather have someone else do it, but instead chooses to play along with the business owners, and take it out on the employees to save yourself a few bucks; when it you really cared about saving money you probably wouldn't be eating take out now huh

    Curbside workers at Target, Walmart, etc. do not get tipped for doing a very similar task to the best on my knowledge (collecting the ordered items from the store vs. the kitchen and delivering them to the car of the customer). They probably do more walking and have to cross traffic on the front drive of the store to do it too.
    Madican wrote: »
    My cousin used to be a server and from her I learned that when she was stationed at the takeout counter she was still being paid waitress wages, but without the tip. Meaning every shift she had to work takeout counter, and she needed to do much more than just put food in the bag, she got paid minimum wage and nothing more.

    I learned the same when I worked at Chili’s several years ago. Before then I had never tipped takeout because I assumed that they got paid a full wage. There though, the curbside people made more than the servers in base pay likely because no one tipped them. As a position it was also usually reserved for the people working their way up to server/bonus shifts the newer servers.

    I should also note, that even as a host that didn’t make tips, working in a restaurant (again a Chilis, nothing fancy) paid several dollars more an hour than I made in any of my decade of retail jobs, included the one where I was a supervisor and made a tiny commission.

    LostNinja on
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    Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    I did curbside delivery at best buy (during the pandemic no less) and people did indeed try to tip us for that as well. Because people recognized this was above and beyond what was normally expected of us at the time.

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    HappylilElfHappylilElf Registered User regular
    edited March 2023
    Idk I just feel like I can't have this conversation with people who seemingly haven't worked a day of their lives doing this kinda work. I've nearly have my brain blown out the back of my skull for 14 dollars an hour, I can't pretend to sit here and listen about how counter people "do nothing" but put things in bags when they probably have to deal with more horseshit in one day than you have to in a year, maybe your entire life. Like if you own a house? You probably have no fucking clue what life is like for these people. To me, my side is about basic empathy. And the other side is about apathy.

    Hi!

    I've worked in retail. I've also worked in the frozen/dairy department of a grocery store which if you aren't familiar is the most miserable department by far. I'm currently in customer service and spent the last five years specifically working in a literal complaint department.

    I also got to do actual labor for years without any pay at all. Things like "dig these railroad tie plates out of this 6' pile of dirt, rotten ties, and rusty iron" and "scrape the rust out of the inside of this steam engine boiler without goggles or even a mask to wear using nothing but a bundle of fuckin' scotch brite pads."

    Oh, and I don't own a house.

    So hopefully I'm now credentialed enough to inform you that you're being utterly ridiculous about this.

    HappylilElf on
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    Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    Some numbers

    In 2021 when I was laid off from best buy, I was making 17 an hour + quarterly bonus for being a Verizon sales rep. I started in 2018 making 14/hr. I was a manager at pizza hut the summer of 2022. I made 15/hr (soon to be the min wage here in IL).

    My last restaurant job started at 16/hr and when I left I was making 18/hr. The difference is once again, best buy offered benefits + a normal 40 hour work week any time that wasn't November - December. I worked 60 hours a week on average at my last cooking job, 6 days a week 10 hour shifts minimum.

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    R-demR-dem Registered User regular
    So I got laid off from a well-paying salary career and am doing Door Dash part time while I'm back in school for Net / Sec + and there's my disclaimer

    There are 100% people like me who need them tips to survive, and in my locale literally no hourly pays less than $12-14 so the arguments over minimum wage are moot.

    This also means that servers who get stiffed on tips ain't gonna make our local minimum.

    IF you live in an area like mine please don't shaft your tipped workers.

    If you hate that Door Dash charges you all the little fees and decide not to tip to save a few bucks, cool. Your driver actually doesn't know that. We just see how much the gig will pay and what the mileage is. Some drivers turn down under $2/mile. I'll take $1/mile if it's not taking me away from restaurants, so if you live in the boonies or burbs, keep that in mind when deciding on a tip.

    The little tip jars and PoS tip prompts usually just buy candy or whatever for the staff. It's cool, we appreciated it, but yeah turn that shit down unless you like wanna round up or hate change / loose bills.

    Tipping overall needs to go away. Rich people tip like shit, poor people can't really afford it, screw it, pay everyone a good wage and let's all be fast and happy on yummy food.

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    Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    Idk I just feel like I can't have this conversation with people who seemingly haven't worked a day of their lives doing this kinda work. I've nearly have my brain blown out the back of my skull for 14 dollars an hour, I can't pretend to sit here and listen about how counter people "do nothing" but put things in bags when they probably have to deal with more horseshit in one day than you have to in a year, maybe your entire life. Like if you own a house? You probably have no fucking clue what life is like for these people. To me, my side is about basic empathy. And the other side is about apathy.

    Hi!

    I've worked in retail. I've also worked in the frozen/dairy department of a grocery store which if you aren't familiar is the most miserable department by far. I'm currently in customer service and spent the last five years specifically working in a literal complaint department.

    I also got to do actual labor for years without any pay at all. Things like "dig these railroad tie plates out of this 6' pile of dirt, rotten ties, and rusty iron" and "scrape the rust out of the inside of this steam engine boiler without goggles or even a mask to wear using nothing but a bundle of fuckin' scotch brite pads."

    Oh, and I don't own a house.

    So hopefully I'm now credentialed enough to inform you that you're being utterly ridiculous about this.

    Sorry my radical stance is "pay people more"

    Also the actual labor bit made me laugh, says so much by saying so little

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    HappylilElfHappylilElf Registered User regular
    Idk I just feel like I can't have this conversation with people who seemingly haven't worked a day of their lives doing this kinda work. I've nearly have my brain blown out the back of my skull for 14 dollars an hour, I can't pretend to sit here and listen about how counter people "do nothing" but put things in bags when they probably have to deal with more horseshit in one day than you have to in a year, maybe your entire life. Like if you own a house? You probably have no fucking clue what life is like for these people. To me, my side is about basic empathy. And the other side is about apathy.

    Hi!

    I've worked in retail. I've also worked in the frozen/dairy department of a grocery store which if you aren't familiar is the most miserable department by far. I'm currently in customer service and spent the last five years specifically working in a literal complaint department.

    I also got to do actual labor for years without any pay at all. Things like "dig these railroad tie plates out of this 6' pile of dirt, rotten ties, and rusty iron" and "scrape the rust out of the inside of this steam engine boiler without goggles or even a mask to wear using nothing but a bundle of fuckin' scotch brite pads."

    Oh, and I don't own a house.

    So hopefully I'm now credentialed enough to inform you that you're being utterly ridiculous about this.

    Sorry my radical stance is "pay people more"

    Also the actual labor bit made me laugh, says so much by saying so little

    I don't even disagree with your stance generally.

    I disagree that one has to be a, to use your own oh so reasonable and not at all gross term, cunt when discussing it.

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    RT800RT800 Registered User regular
    I was always kind of amused to see the tip jar at my local yogurt shop.

    The shop's whole schtick was do-it-yourself.

    Customer gets a paper cup from the stack, dispenses their own yogurt from the machine, then adds their own topping from a buffet.

    Literally the only thing the employee did was ring up the purchase.

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    HappylilElfHappylilElf Registered User regular
    Though I guess it's good to know that you find the suffering-of-labor-Olympics funny.

    Of course the only reason I included that was to mock your engagement with it.

    If only you'd found that sense of humor before then.

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    Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    You can not have worked in food service very long if cunt is offensive to your delicate sensibilities friend

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    HappylilElfHappylilElf Registered User regular
    You can not have worked in food service very long if cunt is offensive to your delicate sensibilities friend

    Keep on digging Jay, I'm sure the hole will go up eventually.

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    Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    Legitimately, like, don't ever go to Australia either.. you'll be shaken to the core 15 minutes in

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    ElJeffeElJeffe Not actually a mod. Roaming the streets, waving his gun around.Moderator, ClubPA Mod Emeritus
    edited March 2023
    Idk I just feel like I can't have this conversation with people who seemingly haven't worked a day of their lives doing this kinda work. I've nearly have my brain blown out the back of my skull for 14 dollars an hour, I can't pretend to sit here and listen about how counter people "do nothing" but put things in bags when they probably have to deal with more horseshit in one day than you have to in a year, maybe your entire life. Like if you own a house? You probably have no fucking clue what life is like for these people. To me, my side is about basic empathy. And the other side is about apathy.

    I've worked in the service industry. I never got tips when I did that job.

    I don't own a home.

    I've been held up multiple times working the service position. Which, again, I did not receive extra compensation for.

    And again, to remind you, this discussion is "should the person who does less than a waiter receive a somewhat smaller tip than a waiter."

    I'm not opposed to your side, duder. Not everything is about sides.

    ElJeffe on
    I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
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    Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    You might not see it but you're on the side that doesn't tip for X Y Z made up reason you've come up with to comfort yourself while saving a couple bucks at most while enjoying the luxury of take out food, food that's less expensive because the labor is cheap because they pay people less on the basis that they'll be tipped which you don't tip because of X Y Z made up reason etc, and so on

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    OrganichuOrganichu poops peesRegistered User, Moderator mod
    it's been my experience in a life of low income work (from a starting point of childhood homelessness) that lots of jobs in the american economy are godawful. this includes food service but also includes retail (where i've also worked with zero pto and had physical violence threatened on me, been spit on etc) and i'm sure other industries in which i haven't worked.

    i'm especially sensitive to serving and bartending just because of the reality of budgeting expectations. i made the best money of my young life serving, even after tip out. it was still a pretty awful job and the extra cash didn't wipe that away. but getting moved from hosting or back of house to server was something most people wanted for the better money. given that long lasting expectation, i'd feel like shit undermining someone's financial reality.

    it'd be great if everyone made a living wage. i vote on increases every time they're put in front of me. i enjoy visiting places that include a living wage charge, when reports indicate it's genuine and makes it to the expected people. while tipping is still a thing, i'm likely to prioritize those roles that have most relied upon it for their expected income. but had i the power to magically wave my hands and get what i want,

    1) i'd of course first command a living wage for all. if my powers were limited and i couldn't do that, then:
    2) i'd find myself unable to reasonably argue for food service as being exceptional or deserving unique treatment, from the ground up. i have no disrespect whatsoever for people who hand you your froyo or cook your burger or bag your groceries- i've done all those jobs. but i don't think they're especially deserving of the uplift that we all broadly deserve as a society.

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    joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    edited March 2023
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Idk I just feel like I can't have this conversation with people who seemingly haven't worked a day of their lives doing this kinda work. I've nearly have my brain blown out the back of my skull for 14 dollars an hour, I can't pretend to sit here and listen about how counter people "do nothing" but put things in bags when they probably have to deal with more horseshit in one day than you have to in a year, maybe your entire life. Like if you own a house? You probably have no fucking clue what life is like for these people. To me, my side is about basic empathy. And the other side is about apathy.

    I've worked in the service industry. I never got tips when I did that job.

    I don't own a home.

    I've been held up multiple times working the service position. Which, again, I did not receive extra compensation for.

    And again, to remind you, this discussion is "should the person who does less than a waiter receive a somewhat smaller tip than a waiter."

    I'm not opposed to your side, duder. Not everything is about sides.

    I see you’ve chosen the side that says not everything is about sides. Unfortunately, I am not on your side.

    To be really clear I would be totally fine with tipping culture if it was purely a “this person did an exceptional job and I want to say thanks” thing. Since it’s not that, and instead is a “this person did the job their company is supposed to be paying them for but isn’t, so you pay them or they’ll starve” thing, I’m against it in principle. But that principle doesn’t mean I’m pro-starvation for people with service industry jobs and I will go along with this racist, misogynistic paradigm for their sake until it’s gone.

    joshofalltrades on
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    lonelyahavalonelyahava Call me Ahava ~~She/Her~~ Move to New ZealandRegistered User regular
    You can not have worked in food service very long if cunt is offensive to your delicate sensibilities friend

    Gendered insults are still gendered insults no matter how often they're used in toxic industries and international locations that are neither of them this actual conversation.

    Just because its a word used often in your experience, doesn't mean that it's proper to repeat it as an insult to others.

    stop using a derogatory term about my a physical part of my body as an insult to other people.

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    ElJeffeElJeffe Not actually a mod. Roaming the streets, waving his gun around.Moderator, ClubPA Mod Emeritus
    mcdermott wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Idk I just feel like I can't have this conversation with people who seemingly haven't worked a day of their lives doing this kinda work. I've nearly have my brain blown out the back of my skull for 14 dollars an hour, I can't pretend to sit here and listen about how counter people "do nothing" but put things in bags when they probably have to deal with more horseshit in one day than you have to in a year, maybe your entire life. Like if you own a house? You probably have no fucking clue what life is like for these people. To me, my side is about basic empathy. And the other side is about apathy.

    GameStop employees have been murdered while making five cents above minimum wage.

    This has fuck all to do with tips.

    It has everything to do with tips when servers and bartenders have been made to rely on them. We all agree this is bad. Until then, tip your servers or you're just a cunt

    They don't rely on them, if not a single patron tipped servers and bartenders would make, by law, the exact same wage (less a nickel) that GameStop employee was making as they gasped their last breath. Tips are only ever above the minimum wage.

    This is understood. I believe everyone should get wages that actually like, let them live. If it became normal to tip every minimum wage worker, I'd happily do so. Because I understand that makes a difference and sadly, the people who actually could make meaningful change seem to not care. So instead yeah, I'd pay more so people can feed their kids and pay rent, if need be.

    So wait, you think that all minimum wage workers are worthy of tips, but you won't give them tips unless society tells you to?

    That's... not quite the altruism you think it is?

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    Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Idk I just feel like I can't have this conversation with people who seemingly haven't worked a day of their lives doing this kinda work. I've nearly have my brain blown out the back of my skull for 14 dollars an hour, I can't pretend to sit here and listen about how counter people "do nothing" but put things in bags when they probably have to deal with more horseshit in one day than you have to in a year, maybe your entire life. Like if you own a house? You probably have no fucking clue what life is like for these people. To me, my side is about basic empathy. And the other side is about apathy.

    GameStop employees have been murdered while making five cents above minimum wage.

    This has fuck all to do with tips.

    It has everything to do with tips when servers and bartenders have been made to rely on them. We all agree this is bad. Until then, tip your servers or you're just a cunt

    They don't rely on them, if not a single patron tipped servers and bartenders would make, by law, the exact same wage (less a nickel) that GameStop employee was making as they gasped their last breath. Tips are only ever above the minimum wage.

    This is understood. I believe everyone should get wages that actually like, let them live. If it became normal to tip every minimum wage worker, I'd happily do so. Because I understand that makes a difference and sadly, the people who actually could make meaningful change seem to not care. So instead yeah, I'd pay more so people can feed their kids and pay rent, if need be.

    So wait, you think that all minimum wage workers are worthy of tips, but you won't give them tips unless society tells you to?

    That's... not quite the altruism you think it is?

    Society? No. If I knew there was a particular job that didn't pay well, and that they'd be better off with a tip, I'd offer one. But for other industries like say, a gas station clerk, they might be insulted if I offered it. Or maybe have to awkwardly turn it down or risk losing their job, as I had to do many times when managers lurked around me at Best Buy. It's not so simple as Give Everyone Tips Always because hey, I'm fucking broke. I'm not eating out much anyways.

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    SummaryJudgmentSummaryJudgment Grab the hottest iron you can find, stride in the Tower’s front door Registered User regular
    zagdrob wrote: »
    Im a generous tipper for service and delivery but I don't tip for takeout unless it's like carside to go or I ask the person for a bunch of extra sauces and stuff when I come in to get my food.

    If all the person is doing is standing there and handing me a bag of food I don't think that warrants a tip anymore than I tip the person who hands me my drinks and food at the drive thru window.

    Honestly with takeout where I'm just handed the bag and go I always figured the tip part is just an artifact from the standard payment system for servers.

    I did it for a couple local joints I liked during covid because they hadn't otherwise raised prices and were missing out on high-margin items - i.e. drinks and I didn't want them to suffer or fold

    Some days Blue wonders why anyone ever bothered making numbers so small; other days she supposes even infinity needs to start somewhere.
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    PaladinPaladin Registered User regular
    Any indulgence in luxury likely involves some form of tipping, or purposely paying more than the market worth of the service or item. That's when I think service is actually reflective of tips - when the customer is purposely overspending because they're celebrating. For routine stuff that is mostly to fulfill basic needs without a load of social extravagance, tips are just hidden costs to trick people.

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    GilgaronGilgaron Registered User regular
    In our youth my brother worked a tipped job and I worked fast food and when it all came down to it I had a stable income and he didn't. When it was a busy night because the county fair was going on we each worked our asses off and he brought home a bit more, and if it was a big football game and it was a ghost town at each he took home almost nothing and I took home the same as always while watching the game on a portable TV. It seemed obvious to me at the time that tipping jobs was an illusion of the ability to earn more held in front of folks who didn't know better, but we were living with our folks at the time this was all spending money not feeding a family so the perception would be skewed. A mitigating factor was that I was also less shy than most about asking for a raise every year so I was the highest paid part time employee there since being able to speak elementary Spanish, doing math in my head, and showing up when scheduled are exemplary fast food skills.

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    ElJeffeElJeffe Not actually a mod. Roaming the streets, waving his gun around.Moderator, ClubPA Mod Emeritus
    You might not see it but you're on the side that doesn't tip for X Y Z made up reason you've come up with to comfort yourself while saving a couple bucks at most while enjoying the luxury of take out food, food that's less expensive because the labor is cheap because they pay people less on the basis that they'll be tipped which you don't tip because of X Y Z made up reason etc, and so on

    Once more, for the cheap seats:

    I tip take out orders.

    Usually about 10% versus about 20% when I'm sitting down in the restaurant. Generally, if the establishment offers a way to tip, i tip.

    I was only discussing how much to give the various categories of employee.

    But I'm now going to just arbitrarily declare that all service employees should be tipped 40%. Including grocery baggers. If you're not giving $80 to that bagger on your $200 grocery tab, you're a right bastard who hates service employees.

    Why do you hate service employees, Jay? Clearly you do, because my performative outrage declares it so.

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