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Tipping/Gratuity Culture

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    tbloxhamtbloxham Registered User regular
    bwanie wrote: »
    I like European tipping because it allows you to show extra appreciation and they're generally always shared among staff only.

    I do not like the American extra hoops i, as a customer, have to jump through to pay your employees a living wage.

    The thing to remember is that all this tipping nonsense still exists in places in the US which passed and enforced regulation to pay workers a living wage.

    "That is cool" - Abraham Lincoln
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    PaladinPaladin Registered User regular
    They should add tips to tabulated prices on restaurant review apps

    Marty: The future, it's where you're going?
    Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
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    That_GuyThat_Guy I don't wanna be that guy Registered User regular
    I hate tipping so much. I hate being guilted into subsiding the lion's share of my server's paycheck. With that said, I am a crazy good tipper. I regularly tip 30 to 40% if I'm dining alone. A $10 meal will typically have a $5 tip from me. Waiting tables is such a shitty job that I don't want to do anything that makes it worse.

    There is 1 time I can think of where I haven't left a large tip and that was when they ignored me for an hour and never brought sauce/salsas for my tacos after asking several times.

    There are several places around me that have a no tipping policy. It's great in theory but I generally can't (don't want to) afford to eat at those places. 25 bucks for a burger and fries is too rich for my blood.

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    amateurhouramateurhour One day I'll be professionalhour The woods somewhere in TennesseeRegistered User regular
    That_Guy wrote: »
    I hate tipping so much. I hate being guilted into subsiding the lion's share of my server's paycheck. With that said, I am a crazy good tipper. I regularly tip 30 to 40% if I'm dining alone. A $10 meal will typically have a $5 tip from me. Waiting tables is such a shitty job that I don't want to do anything that makes it worse.

    There are several places around me that have a no tipping policy. It's great in theory but I generally can't (don't want to) afford to eat at those places. 25 bucks for a burger and fries is too rich for my blood.

    These two things seem in conflict with each other, because if you're leaving 30/40 percent on a $15 check that's like $22

    Not arguing, just confused.

    are YOU on the beer list?
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    AiouaAioua Ora Occidens Ora OptimaRegistered User regular
    edited March 2023
    just want to repost my 3-point plan for, if not ending tipping, at least making it less bullshit
    Aioua wrote: »
    i want to try and craft a way of killing tipping that might be at least somewhat politically feasible

    step 1: fix the minimum wage thing
    this is just removing bullshit and as we've seen doesn't do much to stop tipping but i think is a necessary precondition

    step 2: remove custom tipping options at point of sale
    basically force anyone who wants a tipping-type structure to use the automatic gratuity system instead of leaving it up to the customer, set the rate (18% is popular) and how tips are pooled/distributed by statue

    step 3: require menu pricing to include the gratuity amount
    at this point the difference between a tipped and non-tipped establishment is invisible to the customer, which would make it easier for a business to change modes depending on which mode is better at attracting employees without worrying about scaring away customers with higher menu prices

    then, maybe down the line if these more tightly regulated gratuity systems remain common we can evaluate if they are still exploitative or actually beneficial for the employees

    After thinking about it more and reading the thread i have some additional commentary.

    Ofc this solves the tip inflation problem by setting the tip rate by statue, and by the time you're at step 3 the owners don't have much of an incentive to lobby for a higher tip rate since it'll raise their menu prices.

    I think there still remains an avenue for owner bullshit, in that any system where the bulk of an employee's pay is tips means the owner gets to offload much of the risk of slow sales days to the employees. You could probably fix this (somewhat) with more careful pooling where it's spread over the whole pay period so nobody is punished for working low sales night.

    E: It still means the owner get to pay their employees based on sales and not the employees labor so, hrmph.
    I guess in not-politically-feasible solutions we limit these pay structures where the employee takes on the business risk to employee-owned corps.
    Fucking ownership class loves to talk about how they deserve their gains under capitalism because they take on all the risk but they sure do love to offload that risk as fast as possible while still reaping all the rewards.

    Aioua on
    life's a game that you're bound to lose / like using a hammer to pound in screws
    fuck up once and you break your thumb / if you're happy at all then you're god damn dumb
    that's right we're on a fucked up cruise / God is dead but at least we have booze
    bad things happen, no one knows why / the sun burns out and everyone dies
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    spool32spool32 Contrary Library Registered User regular
    Raiden333 wrote: »
    guys hear me out

    what if we just solved tipping by replacing tipped servers with AI robots

    I don't agree that foods served to me by a robot should be considered a "meal".

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    Albino BunnyAlbino Bunny Jackie Registered User regular
    I feel like when the thread so often has to say American tipping culture is bad specifically it’s not really about tipping

    It’s just talking about USA law being barbaric with regard to labour.

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    Death of RatsDeath of Rats Registered User regular
    spool32 wrote: »
    Raiden333 wrote: »
    guys hear me out

    what if we just solved tipping by replacing tipped servers with AI robots

    I don't agree that foods served to me by a robot should be considered a "meal".

    Booo get off the stage.

    No I don't.
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    spool32spool32 Contrary Library Registered User regular
    Aioua wrote: »
    just want to repost my 3-point plan for, if not ending tipping, at least making it less bullshit
    Aioua wrote: »
    i want to try and craft a way of killing tipping that might be at least somewhat politically feasible

    step 1: fix the minimum wage thing
    this is just removing bullshit and as we've seen doesn't do much to stop tipping but i think is a necessary precondition

    step 2: remove custom tipping options at point of sale
    basically force anyone who wants a tipping-type structure to use the automatic gratuity system instead of leaving it up to the customer, set the rate (18% is popular) and how tips are pooled/distributed by statue

    step 3: require menu pricing to include the gratuity amount
    at this point the difference between a tipped and non-tipped establishment is invisible to the customer, which would make it easier for a business to change modes depending on which mode is better at attracting employees without worrying about scaring away customers with higher menu prices

    then, maybe down the line if these more tightly regulated gratuity systems remain common we can evaluate if they are still exploitative or actually beneficial for the employees

    After thinking about it more and reading the thread i have some additional commentary.

    Ofc this solves the tip inflation problem by setting the tip rate by statue, and by the time you're at step 3 the owners don't have much of an incentive to lobby for a higher tip rate since it'll raise their menu prices.

    I think there still remains an avenue for owner bullshit, in that any system where the bulk of an employee's pay is tips means the owner gets to offload much of the risk of slow sales days to the employees. You could probably fix this (somewhat) with more careful pooling where it's spread over the whole pay period so nobody is punished for working low sales night.

    E: It still means the owner get to pay their employees based on sales and not the employees labor so, hrmph.
    I guess in not-politically-feasible solutions we limit these pay structures where the employee takes on the business risk to employee-owned corps.
    Fucking ownership class loves to talk about how they deserve their gains under capitalism because they take on all the risk but they sure do love to offload that risk as fast as possible while still reaping all the rewards.

    Honestly I think this is a good idea. From a process perspective, there are a lot of perverse incentives for servers that don't align well to the longterm goal of the business. If you're not going to eliminate tipping, what you need to do is design an incentive system that rewards work done at times when it wa formerly undesirable, removes incentives to not show up for work, and emphasizes that consistent performance across a period is more important than bursts of excellence.

    To that end, setting a reasonable floor by shift based on sales data can drive a more consistent experience for guests, because you remove the competition for "good" shifts. All shifts become good.

    Then you set a cap on tips. No shifts remain windfalls.

    Then you use the excess tipped income to fund a weekly bonus for all the staff based on hours worked. This creates the longterm incentive to still deliver service that generates tips regardless of shift.

    Then you offer an additional bonus out of the company's pocket for tables turned over the average for the shift. This recognizes that sometimes people are rocking it, or they're abandoned alone for a shift, and deserve something more than the baseline hourly bonus, without creating a new perverse incentive to burn through tables with bad service.

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    AiouaAioua Ora Occidens Ora OptimaRegistered User regular
    spool32 wrote: »
    Aioua wrote: »
    just want to repost my 3-point plan for, if not ending tipping, at least making it less bullshit
    Aioua wrote: »
    i want to try and craft a way of killing tipping that might be at least somewhat politically feasible

    step 1: fix the minimum wage thing
    this is just removing bullshit and as we've seen doesn't do much to stop tipping but i think is a necessary precondition

    step 2: remove custom tipping options at point of sale
    basically force anyone who wants a tipping-type structure to use the automatic gratuity system instead of leaving it up to the customer, set the rate (18% is popular) and how tips are pooled/distributed by statue

    step 3: require menu pricing to include the gratuity amount
    at this point the difference between a tipped and non-tipped establishment is invisible to the customer, which would make it easier for a business to change modes depending on which mode is better at attracting employees without worrying about scaring away customers with higher menu prices

    then, maybe down the line if these more tightly regulated gratuity systems remain common we can evaluate if they are still exploitative or actually beneficial for the employees

    After thinking about it more and reading the thread i have some additional commentary.

    Ofc this solves the tip inflation problem by setting the tip rate by statue, and by the time you're at step 3 the owners don't have much of an incentive to lobby for a higher tip rate since it'll raise their menu prices.

    I think there still remains an avenue for owner bullshit, in that any system where the bulk of an employee's pay is tips means the owner gets to offload much of the risk of slow sales days to the employees. You could probably fix this (somewhat) with more careful pooling where it's spread over the whole pay period so nobody is punished for working low sales night.

    E: It still means the owner get to pay their employees based on sales and not the employees labor so, hrmph.
    I guess in not-politically-feasible solutions we limit these pay structures where the employee takes on the business risk to employee-owned corps.
    Fucking ownership class loves to talk about how they deserve their gains under capitalism because they take on all the risk but they sure do love to offload that risk as fast as possible while still reaping all the rewards.

    Honestly I think this is a good idea. From a process perspective, there are a lot of perverse incentives for servers that don't align well to the longterm goal of the business. If you're not going to eliminate tipping, what you need to do is design an incentive system that rewards work done at times when it wa formerly undesirable, removes incentives to not show up for work, and emphasizes that consistent performance across a period is more important than bursts of excellence.

    To that end, setting a reasonable floor by shift based on sales data can drive a more consistent experience for guests, because you remove the competition for "good" shifts. All shifts become good.

    Then you set a cap on tips. No shifts remain windfalls.

    Then you use the excess tipped income to fund a weekly bonus for all the staff based on hours worked. This creates the longterm incentive to still deliver service that generates tips regardless of shift.

    Then you offer an additional bonus out of the company's pocket for tables turned over the average for the shift. This recognizes that sometimes people are rocking it, or they're abandoned alone for a shift, and deserve something more than the baseline hourly bonus, without creating a new perverse incentive to burn through tables with bad service.

    Eh, i think this is overthinking it a bit much.
    Too many moving parts, my goal is to minimize the distinctions between tipped and non-tipped workplaces.
    Plus I'm working from the assumption that needing to hustle for tips is bullshit and dehumanizing vs getting paid a fixed wage for your labor.

    At any rate, in my system tips are a fixed gratuity, there isn't an avenue for the star performer to feel jealous of the slacker (directly, cash-wise, anyway) because their tip generation isn't tied to their performance (outside of like, upselling customers i guess).

    If the star performer needs to be recognized or there needs to be incentive for sucky shifts then the owner can suck it up and pay more like owners have to do in non-tipped industries.

    life's a game that you're bound to lose / like using a hammer to pound in screws
    fuck up once and you break your thumb / if you're happy at all then you're god damn dumb
    that's right we're on a fucked up cruise / God is dead but at least we have booze
    bad things happen, no one knows why / the sun burns out and everyone dies
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    MonwynMonwyn Apathy's a tragedy, and boredom is a crime. A little bit of everything, all of the time.Registered User regular
    Idk I just feel like I can't have this conversation with people who seemingly haven't worked a day of their lives doing this kinda work. I've nearly have my brain blown out the back of my skull for 14 dollars an hour, I can't pretend to sit here and listen about how counter people "do nothing" but put things in bags when they probably have to deal with more horseshit in one day than you have to in a year, maybe your entire life. Like if you own a house? You probably have no fucking clue what life is like for these people. To me, my side is about basic empathy. And the other side is about apathy.

    Oh yeah? I had someone put a gun in my face working at a liquor store for *$7* an hour, how do you like *them* apples? Do I win?

    uH3IcEi.png
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    Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    You win the coveted "most taken advantage of for their labor award" yes provide an address and I'll send the plaque

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    Albino BunnyAlbino Bunny Jackie Registered User regular
    I dunno maybe americans should like, take in how many people working any service industry have a gun pointed at them and think.

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    HerrCronHerrCron It that wickedly supports taxation Registered User regular
    I'm in Canada so this won't map 1-1 onto the hellscape that is our basement, but personally if the option to tip is presented, I'll just tip.
    Partly because I don't want to be a peevish cunt about it, rating people on some arbitrary scale as to whether or not I feel they've earned my gratitude, but mostly because even though minimum wage is guaranteed here, I consider it hazard pay for having to deal with *gestures broadly* people.

    Now Playing:
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    MonwynMonwyn Apathy's a tragedy, and boredom is a crime. A little bit of everything, all of the time.Registered User regular
    MechMantis wrote: »
    wandering wrote: »
    Doodmann wrote: »
    IMBTA but pretty much only tip when socially shamed into it or when I legitimately have wonderful service or if I have a parasocial relationship with the worker (i.e. my local bar gets tipped more generously than the waiter at applebees in some other state).

    Anyway, tipping is racist and anti-american: https://www.npr.org/2021/03/22/980047710/the-land-of-the-fee
    IMBTA
    Yes.

    Like, there's room for some legit disagreement about tipping, but if you live in a place where it's customary, and regularly leave $0 for the people who bring food to your table, you are a goose

    And then you have this

    886drlpo4dou.jpg

    I think we can all agree that the people who do THIS are THE SCUM OF THE EARTH.

    They are the garbages and we should criticize them.

    This somehow pisses me off more than the fake bills like this that have evangelical tracts on the bottom half I'd occasionally get when I waited tables.

    uH3IcEi.png
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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    I dunno maybe americans should like, take in how many people working any service industry have a gun pointed at them and think.

    I mean yeah but that's an entirely different thread. The point, to me, is that most of the hazards and working conditions that apply to tipped service workers apply to untipped service workers, who are often making substantially less. And while we heard at least one anectdote where an untipped retail position came with some meager amount of PTO...which is good to hear...at least in my experience most retail positions weren't particularly great on that front. At which point tipped workers pointing to "working conditions" as justification for being handed money that is not owed to them is pretty weak, considering that plenty of people (including many who are being asked to fork over tips) are putting up with similar or worse working conditions for less pay.

    Similarly, the complaints about "difficultly budgeting" are hilarious to me. Yes, some weeks or shifts you'll make more, some less. Meaning your pay generally varies from "a little more than untipped service positions" to "a lot more than untipped service positions."

    And ultimately the preservation of tipping as some kind of solution to the living wage issue (for a very specific niche of workers) is about as reasonable as legalized panhandling as the solution for homelessness and unemployment. Perpetuating the idea that paying workers should be optional ultimately does more harm than good, IMO.

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    ElJeffeElJeffe Not actually a mod. Roaming the streets, waving his gun around.Moderator, ClubPA Mod Emeritus
    Monwyn wrote: »
    Idk I just feel like I can't have this conversation with people who seemingly haven't worked a day of their lives doing this kinda work. I've nearly have my brain blown out the back of my skull for 14 dollars an hour, I can't pretend to sit here and listen about how counter people "do nothing" but put things in bags when they probably have to deal with more horseshit in one day than you have to in a year, maybe your entire life. Like if you own a house? You probably have no fucking clue what life is like for these people. To me, my side is about basic empathy. And the other side is about apathy.

    Oh yeah? I had someone put a gun in my face working at a liquor store for *$7* an hour, how do you like *them* apples? Do I win?

    Man, I've had three guns pointed in my face this morning alone, and I telework.

    Top that.

    I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
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    Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    The difference with untipped pay is it's atleast the same amount every time. Hence why tipping needs to go. The argument in this thread in favor of tipping boils down to "we have to do it until things get fixed" I don't see many fans of tipping here

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    ElJeffeElJeffe Not actually a mod. Roaming the streets, waving his gun around.Moderator, ClubPA Mod Emeritus
    Monwyn wrote: »
    MechMantis wrote: »
    wandering wrote: »
    Doodmann wrote: »
    IMBTA but pretty much only tip when socially shamed into it or when I legitimately have wonderful service or if I have a parasocial relationship with the worker (i.e. my local bar gets tipped more generously than the waiter at applebees in some other state).

    Anyway, tipping is racist and anti-american: https://www.npr.org/2021/03/22/980047710/the-land-of-the-fee
    IMBTA
    Yes.

    Like, there's room for some legit disagreement about tipping, but if you live in a place where it's customary, and regularly leave $0 for the people who bring food to your table, you are a goose

    And then you have this

    886drlpo4dou.jpg

    I think we can all agree that the people who do THIS are THE SCUM OF THE EARTH.

    They are the garbages and we should criticize them.

    This somehow pisses me off more than the fake bills like this that have evangelical tracts on the bottom half I'd occasionally get when I waited tables.

    I love how they make it a twenty.

    For maximum "OOH SHIT THAT'S A GOOD TIP.... oh" whiplash.

    I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
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    override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    If I was going to leaeve an antiwork printout I would do it with a generous tip

    the message should be like "you shouldn't have to rely on charity, you are a hard working human being"

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    SmokeStacksSmokeStacks Registered User regular
    The correct course of action when you find an r/antiwork fake $20 is to be angry for a moment before remembering how stupid people on reddit are and chuckling to yourself.

    The correct course of action when you find a "knowing God is more valuable than money etc etc" fake $20 is to leave it in a church collection plate.

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    override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    tbloxham wrote: »
    bwanie wrote: »
    I like European tipping because it allows you to show extra appreciation and they're generally always shared among staff only.

    I do not like the American extra hoops i, as a customer, have to jump through to pay your employees a living wage.

    The thing to remember is that all this tipping nonsense still exists in places in the US which passed and enforced regulation to pay workers a living wage.

    Which places in America force workers to be paid a living wage?

    $15 an hour was a living wage in 2010, it is not anymore

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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited March 2023
    The difference with untipped pay is it's atleast the same amount every time. Hence why tipping needs to go. The argument in this thread in favor of tipping boils down to "we have to do it until things get fixed" I don't see many fans of tipping here

    And see, I disagree that we have to wait until things get fixed. Why?

    As for "at least it's the same amount every time," that's cold comfort when that "same amount" is consistently less. If I offer you two positions, one of which will pay you $16 per hour every shift, and the other will pay you anywhere between $17 per hour and $30 per hour depending how good of a night you have...which will you choose? You're a fuckin' moron if you choose the former. That's "imma turn down this raise because I don't wanna get bumped into a higher tax bracket" level nonsense.

    There is no world in which a variable pay rate, where the min and max are both greater than the fixed pay rate, is ever better.

    mcdermott on
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    Jealous DevaJealous Deva Registered User regular
    edited March 2023
    Just as a side note on the whole “tipped workers who make less than minimum wage in tips get tipped up by employers” thing.

    Having known plenty of servers and restaurant workers, its generally more in practice like “servers who make less than minimum wage in tips and asked to be tipped up by employers get tipped up once or twice maybe and then get fired for being poor performers”

    I don’t know what the legality was or whether the restaurant owner was a dickhead who was breaking the law or whatever, but I’ve known a couple of servers who routinely complained that they made like 60 dollars on 8 hour shifts in “dead shifts” but were afraid to ask for tip ups because they knew they’d be fired.

    Jealous Deva on
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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited March 2023
    Just as a side note on the whole “tipped workers who make less than minimum wage in tips get tipped up by employers” thing.

    Having known plenty of servers and restaurant workers, its generally more in practice like “servers who make less than minimum wage in tips and asked to be tipped up by employers get tipped up once or twice maybe and then get fired for being poor performers”

    I don’t know what the legality was or whether the restaurant owner was a dickhead who was breaking the law or whatever, but I’ve known a couple of servers who routinely complained that they made like 60 dollars on 6-8 hour shifts in “dead shifts” but were afraid to ask for tip ups because they knew they’d be fired.

    What state? Because $60 over an 8 hour shift is...$7.50 an hour, which is already over the federal minimum wage on its own, and more than enough for the employer to take the full tip credit of $5.12 per hour. They generally wouldn't be asking for a top-up, at most they might be arguing that they can't afford to tip-out because it would take them below minimum.

    EDIT: It was my experience that failing to clear the minimum wage over the course of a pay period was vanishingly rare.

    mcdermott on
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    R-demR-dem Registered User regular
    I never waited tables but plenty of friends did, and I never heard of any managers or owners forking over money. Never happened. It'd be awesome to see some actual hard data on it, but for obvious reasons hard data about shady pay are hard to come by.

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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited March 2023
    R-dem wrote: »
    I never waited tables but plenty of friends did, and I never heard of any managers or owners forking over money. Never happened. It'd be awesome to see some actual hard data on it, but for obvious reasons hard data about shady pay are hard to come by.

    You'll not hear about it because it's incredibly uncommon for a server to not clear the minimum between wages and tips, when averaged over a pay period. But of course that's because people do tip. If, as I'm suggesting, people just stopped tipping then this would be a thing that happened more often. And while I'm aware that any server who at present fails to make enough in tips to max the tip credit will rapidly see their hours cut to zero, that wouldn't work anymore if enough people started balking at tipping that every server was having to get "topped up." They can't fire everybody.

    The point is that no laws need to change for every server to make full minimum wage if we stop tipping. It would just happen under current law. The structure is already there.

    mcdermott on
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    Jealous DevaJealous Deva Registered User regular
    edited March 2023
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Just as a side note on the whole “tipped workers who make less than minimum wage in tips get tipped up by employers” thing.

    Having known plenty of servers and restaurant workers, its generally more in practice like “servers who make less than minimum wage in tips and asked to be tipped up by employers get tipped up once or twice maybe and then get fired for being poor performers”

    I don’t know what the legality was or whether the restaurant owner was a dickhead who was breaking the law or whatever, but I’ve known a couple of servers who routinely complained that they made like 60 dollars on 6-8 hour shifts in “dead shifts” but were afraid to ask for tip ups because they knew they’d be fired.

    What state? Because $60 over an 8 hour shift is...$7.50 an hour, which is already over the federal minimum wage on its own, and more than enough for the employer to take the full tip credit of $5.12 per hour. They generally wouldn't be asking for a top-up, at most they might be arguing that they can't afford to tip-out because it would take them below minimum.

    EDIT: It was my experience that failing to clear the minimum wage over the course of a pay period was vanishingly rare.

    North carolina, I’m probably brain farting on the exact amount but I specifically remember them complaining about not making minimum wage.

    They may have been above minimum wage for the pay period though when counting in Friday and Saturday. I don’t remember the specifics just that it was a really common complaint and that they were afraid to bring up any kind of compensation because it would get them fired

    Jealous Deva on
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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Just as a side note on the whole “tipped workers who make less than minimum wage in tips get tipped up by employers” thing.

    Having known plenty of servers and restaurant workers, its generally more in practice like “servers who make less than minimum wage in tips and asked to be tipped up by employers get tipped up once or twice maybe and then get fired for being poor performers”

    I don’t know what the legality was or whether the restaurant owner was a dickhead who was breaking the law or whatever, but I’ve known a couple of servers who routinely complained that they made like 60 dollars on 6-8 hour shifts in “dead shifts” but were afraid to ask for tip ups because they knew they’d be fired.

    What state? Because $60 over an 8 hour shift is...$7.50 an hour, which is already over the federal minimum wage on its own, and more than enough for the employer to take the full tip credit of $5.12 per hour. They generally wouldn't be asking for a top-up, at most they might be arguing that they can't afford to tip-out because it would take them below minimum.

    EDIT: It was my experience that failing to clear the minimum wage over the course of a pay period was vanishingly rare.

    North carolina, I’m probably brain farting on the exact amount but I specifically remember them complaining about not making minimum wage.

    They may have been above minimum wage for the pay period though when counting in Friday and Saturday.

    Almost certainly. My bet would be either that they weren't counting their paycheck toward the minimum wage (because for many servers the actual paycheck received is zero after deductions), or that they were looking at a single shift and not a week/pay period. I'm not saying that failing to clear minimum in a tipped position doesn't happen, but it's pretty damn rare.

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    DisruptedCapitalistDisruptedCapitalist I swear! Registered User regular
    I think someone in SE++ the other day was talking about how some landlords are expecting tips these days.

    "Simple, real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time." -Mustrum Ridcully in Terry Pratchett's Hogfather p. 142 (HarperPrism 1996)
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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    I think someone in SE++ the other day was talking about how some landlords are expecting tips these days.

    Jesus.

    I think the first crack in the system for me was when WA legalized marijuana, and apparently the cashiers immediately started calling themselves "budtenders" (eye-fucking-roll) and expecting tips. Like dude, the liquor store clerk doesn't expect tips, even if I ask him his opinion on a couple different whiskeys.

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    Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    I tip whenever there's a jar to do so, kinda seems like if it's there they probably need it. Now if the bank starts putting out a jar I'll probably think twice

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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    I tip whenever there's a jar to do so, kinda seems like if it's there they probably need it. Now if the bank starts putting out a jar I'll probably think twice

    My buddy's girlfriend was a bank teller, she actually didn't make that much.

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    ElJeffeElJeffe Not actually a mod. Roaming the streets, waving his gun around.Moderator, ClubPA Mod Emeritus
    edited March 2023
    mcdermott wrote: »
    R-dem wrote: »
    I never waited tables but plenty of friends did, and I never heard of any managers or owners forking over money. Never happened. It'd be awesome to see some actual hard data on it, but for obvious reasons hard data about shady pay are hard to come by.

    You'll not hear about it because it's incredibly uncommon for a server to not clear the minimum between wages and tips, when averaged over a pay period. But of course that's because people do tip. If, as I'm suggesting, people just stopped tipping then this would be a thing that happened more often. And while I'm aware that any server who at present fails to make enough in tips to max the tip credit will rapidly see their hours cut to zero, that wouldn't work anymore if enough people started balking at tipping that every server was having to get "topped up." They can't fire everybody.

    The point is that no laws need to change for every server to make full minimum wage if we stop tipping. It would just happen under current law. The structure is already there.

    Yeah, a lot of servers would hate this plan, because the whole point of working as waiters is to make more than minimum. My daughter's boyfriend can clear more on a good night as a waiter at a standard chain restaurant than I can in a day as a senior data analyst. He doesn't want to be freed of the yoke of tips so he can make minimum wage.

    "Just stop tipping" is not the One Weird Trick you think it is.

    ElJeffe on
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    SmokeStacksSmokeStacks Registered User regular
    I think someone in SE++ the other day was talking about how some landlords are expecting tips these days.

    My "tip" to the landlord is not returning to the residence and burning it down after I move out when they try to keep a massive chunk of my security deposit with frivolous charges even though I was an exceptional tenant, damaged nothing, and left the place so clean you could build semiconductors inside.

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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    I guess maybe we can start demand every employee post their previous-year W2 next to the register (with PII redacted), so we can make an informed decision based on their pay compared to our own whether or not it's worth handing them money not owed. You know, like making the homeless guy with a cup prove he's homeless before you chip a quarter in.

    Or we can do away with the whole barbaric practice, and work from there.

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    DoodmannDoodmann Registered User regular
    edited March 2023
    I tip whenever there's a jar to do so, kinda seems like if it's there they probably need it. Now if the bank starts putting out a jar I'll probably think twice

    Your blinders are impressive here.

    Doodmann on
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    Jealous DevaJealous Deva Registered User regular
    edited March 2023
    I think someone in SE++ the other day was talking about how some landlords are expecting tips these days.

    The spreading of tip expectation to weird, nonrelated fields is bullshit, especially when they are owner operated jobs.

    Yeah buddy, I am sorry that you don’t think the $250 for taking prom photos that you yourself put in the ad is enough, but I ain’t giving you another 75 dollars just because you have it as the default on your square app.


    I honestly feel that tipping is a lot like Hallmark holidays. Its stupid bullshit but I’m not going to be the asshole that makes someone feel ripped off or miss getting paid just because of some societal shit they don’t have any control over.

    I tip well for servers just for personal reasons because of people I have known, I always see the divorced single mother or the nursing student who was a server at night because she didn’t have support from home and spent all her loan money on tuition.

    Jealous Deva on
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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited March 2023
    Doodmann wrote: »
    I tip whenever there's a jar to do so, kinda seems like if it's there they probably need it. Now if the bank starts putting out a jar I'll probably think twice

    Your blinders are impressive here.

    Yeah I mean even Cheesecake Factory level servers where I live are probably making more than a lot of bank tellers. It's why tipping is such an arbitrary and stupid way to address service sector pay.
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Yeah, a lot of servers would hate this plan, because the whole point of working as waiters is to make more than minimum. My daughter's boyfriend can clear more on a good night as a waiter at a standard chain restaurant than I can in a day as a senior data analyst. He doesn't want to be freed of the yoke of tips so he can make minimum wage.

    "Just stop tipping" is not the One Weird Trick you think it is.

    So to be clear, I don't want to eliminate tipping because I think it will help servers. I want to eliminate tipping because I think it's an awful practice. Fixing pay for both tipped and untipped service workers is an entirely separate issue that we would still need to address, just as we do today.

    EDIT: And a server making more than a senior data analyst (or, as I've seen before, a teacher with a masters degree) is not an argument in favor of tipping as a practice.

    mcdermott on
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    MalReynoldsMalReynolds The Hunter S Thompson of incredibly mild medicines Registered User regular
    My stance on tipping is always, even with carryout. I try to tip at least 30% regardless, more if I have the money. I only tip in store if my presence is causing more stress [ie; one person working, line out the door] since that's pretty miserable and has nothing to do with anything they have control over.

    I always figured everyone was in the same relative boat and we have a responsibility to each other. I'm deliberately not saying that people that don't do this are wrong. But if I want to see a better world. I've wanted to see a better world since I was 10. And no one really seems to do much of anything, but everyone also generally seems to want that too, so I do what I can where I can, and I don't make excuses for why I don't do something since it's all conditional anyway and I take my own action on a case by case basis.

    Anyways, just dropping my 0.02 in [not a tip, just the ante for reading].

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