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Tipping/Gratuity Culture

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    DoodmannDoodmann Registered User regular
    Magell wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    I literally do not believe you have a solution or idea.

    So what's yours?

    I mean, honestly? As someone not in the USA?

    Eliminate the sub minimum wage and let tips be actual tips.

    This still exerts social pressure on workers making less than servers to continue paying extra on services and small luxuries they may barely be able to afford, rather than having truth in pricing when people go out for those same small luxuries. We already eliminated the tip credit where I live. We already eliminated it everywhere I've lived as an adult.. So what's step two? How do we get people a living wage without socially enforced panhandling?

    I remember "having" to reach into my pocket to tip a server when I was making ten cents above minimum wage. Not legally required, mind. But for somebody who's not entirely socially comfortable not a social norm I was willing to violate (and still to this day I conform to it). That was bullshit. I was making half of what those people were making, and yet I was socially pressured into just...handing them my money? The fuck? This is an obscene system.

    Basically that shitty fake $20 from r/antiwork is right, even if it's something only an asshole would actually do. Tipping just creates its own microcosm of income inequality among lower-income workers. It's not a good thing, in any way shape or form. And in principle, the very idea of expanding "voluntarily paying workers at the register" is probably not a good step for society to take, and is unlikely to help us improve actual minimum pay and working conditions. It turns us into a nation of panhandlers.

    But you did know the cost because tipping is a thing. So when you go out to order food you know you're going to add a percentage to it as a tip.

    It may suck, but if you can't afford to tip you shouldn't go out to the restaurant. It's not like you showed up to pay for the meal and sit there and then they sprang the idea of a tip on you at the last moment.

    This is definitionally how it's supposed to work. The fact that it doesn't and it's an expected unwritten and nonstandard tax on the customer means something is fucked up.

    Just include gratuity into your pricing if I shouldn't go there without planning to add a substantial fee on the end.

    Whippy wrote: »
    nope nope nope nope abort abort talk about anime
    I like to ART
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    Albino BunnyAlbino Bunny Jackie Registered User regular
    From a more global perspective all the USA tips are super weird.

    Like honestly, it genuinely undermines my fun USA trip to think I was somehow wrong for not paying 30% on a cool hot dog.

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    DoodmannDoodmann Registered User regular
    Magell wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    And yes, as we see here, it clearly pits customers against staff, while ownership laughs all the way to the bank.

    That's not a good thing either!

    Restaurants generally have pretty shitty profit margins so probably not all the way to the bank.

    Maybe if the entire restraunt industry exists on the knife edge of underpaying labor while also exploiting the guilt of the consumer for said underpayed labor the whole fucking industry needs to be rethought.

    Whippy wrote: »
    nope nope nope nope abort abort talk about anime
    I like to ART
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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    I would love to know where your politics end.

    So far it's mostly being mad at anyone making a tip.

    I would love to think you're better than that.

    I'd happily pay about 50% more in taxes to implement single payer healthcare, generous mandatory PTO, universal basic income, public higher education for all, and maybe throw in some actual usable mass transit in our cities...just to start. Build from there, we could do more.

    I think that would do a whole lot more to solve the issue of living wages than tipping. Tipping, as practiced in America, is a shitty ad-hoc solution for a tiny niche of workers. It's an obscene practice that has actual slavery at its roots.

    Tipping isn't gonna fix wages for workers anymore than me handing a tenner is to the guy on the street is gonna solve homelessness. We need to build a system that everybody benefits from and where everybody chips in.

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    amateurhouramateurhour One day I'll be professionalhour The woods somewhere in TennesseeRegistered User regular
    I think H has some good points too, for what it's worth, and a lot clearer picture of that world in 2023 than some of us do.

    but yeah Vowels for president.

    are YOU on the beer list?
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    SmokeStacksSmokeStacks Registered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Unlikely in my lifetime, much like gun control, single payer healthcare, and walkable cities this is one of those things that just won't work in America for reasons. Despite working fine in other western industrialized democracies.

    Those reasons are

    1.) a blatant Constitutional infringement
    2.) ok you got me on this one, and
    3.) It's difficult to retrofit the idea of walkable cities into decades or hundreds of years old existing infrastructure while simultaneously battling against the car culture that, due to the country being 3,000 miles wide, will probably never disappear

    Compared to 1 and 3 I think there is a better than average chance of eliminating the admittedly deeply ingrained tipping culture in this country within our lifetimes, whether it be from a legitimate social movement or (more likely) widespread replacement of human service industry workers with automation. If they think I'm gonna tip a robot they can fuck right off.
    Tastyfish wrote: »
    I think you guys in the US also just have to accept that you're weird here. Especially when it comes to bartenders getting tips.

    I've heard that in a lot of places in Europe you can "tip" a bartender respectfully by buying them a drink (by just saying something like "and one for you too" when you pay). I don't know if this is true or not (I've never been), but it sounds nice. You're still showing an appreciation for service but it is framed a little differently than an expectation of paying them more money on top of the cost of your drinks.

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    Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    Magell wrote: »
    8 pages in and I don't see the point being solved any easier than what Vowels put up.

    Like, yeah.

    I don't know, if Jay and Mcdermott yell at each other for five more pages I think they might figure something out.

    I'd love to but I'm headed to my second job so he'll have to touch some grass or something idk

    I'll take breaks in between my vast amounts of privilege to see if you guys make a break through

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    amateurhouramateurhour One day I'll be professionalhour The woods somewhere in TennesseeRegistered User regular
    Doodmann wrote: »
    Magell wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    And yes, as we see here, it clearly pits customers against staff, while ownership laughs all the way to the bank.

    That's not a good thing either!

    Restaurants generally have pretty shitty profit margins so probably not all the way to the bank.

    Maybe if the entire restraunt industry exists on the knife edge of underpaying labor while also exploiting the guilt of the consumer for said underpayed labor the whole fucking industry needs to be rethought.

    TBF it's gonna be, post covid. I'm already seeing it even in rural areas.

    are YOU on the beer list?
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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited March 2023
    Like, literally my biggest gripe with tipping is that people are even legally allowed to not do so. I think that got lost somewhere in the last eight pages. Me, from page 1:
    mcdermott wrote: »
    I actually have no issue whatsoever with an 18% "service fee" being added to checks to ensure staff are well compensated, as long as it's disclosed prominently up front. I'd prefer it be reflected in menu prices, mind. I get why that fails at present, because consumers are morons who would balk at those menu prices (then pay the exact same across the street after tipping). But to me it eliminates any of the awkwardness at the end of "how much was this service worth," and I know that I'm probably paying what everybody else is, easy peasy.

    Paying employees shouldn't ever be optional! It's a bad system!

    mcdermott on
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    TastyfishTastyfish Registered User regular
    edited March 2023
    Tastyfish wrote: »
    I think you guys in the US also just have to accept that you're weird here. Especially when it comes to bartenders getting tips.

    I've heard that in a lot of places in Europe you can "tip" a bartender respectfully by buying them a drink (by just saying something like "and one for you too" when you pay). I don't know if this is true or not (I've never been), but it sounds nice. You're still showing an appreciation for service but it is framed a little differently than an expectation of paying them more money on top of the cost of your drinks.

    Perhaps in the 70s as far as Western Europe goes, in the kind of edge cases where it's just you and them so you're not drinking alone (and it's the proprietor of the establishment). Or so I've heard in some places in Greece, where you do it so that they are just as wasted as you when it comes to paying the final tab and no one knows what the final amount really is.

    Not many establishments have that relaxed an attitude to drinking on the job, especially for the employees who's job it is to collect and handle the money.

    Tastyfish on
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    joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    edited March 2023
    From another angle, I’m a musician. I used to be a chemist until the jobs in my area dried up and I was told to either buy the company I worked for or find other work.

    As a musician you have basically two options: either strike out on your own and play gigs/release recordings, hoping you get noticed by someone before the money you make runs out and you get evicted, or find steady work for a local orchestra/church/etc.

    I have done both. I don’t live in a major city so my self-employed work basically consisted of playing for a small amount of money per evening (usually around 4 hours of performing) plus tips, and I was never going to be noticed by anyone major. Occasionally all the venues in a small city that pay a flat fee will be booked, so you either go somewhere that just allows you to play for tips and nothing else or you just make nothing.

    As an awkward neurodivergent (who paradoxically enjoys performing), the idea of singing for my supper fucking sucks. And most people are not nearly as generous with tips for performers as they are for food servers. The average patron isn’t taught growing up that it’s bad manners not to tip the person who is entertaining them all night, and this is not some complaint I am making because I just suck at music and therefore according to my personal experience couldn’t make money this way. Extremely talented performers will tell you that playing for tips is fucking balls just about everywhere.

    And nobody knows what to tip a musician. Occasionally you’ll get a very generous person who will throw a twenty or two in the jar. More often people use it as an excuse to dump the change they’re carrying and think that it looks generous. I’ve been asked to take requests for as low as 50¢ a song before. The fucking bar jukebox costs more than that.

    I was lucky and got noticed locally, and now I’m paid a salary for weekly performances that far exceeds the median for a music career. There’s no comparison; if you told me I had to go back to the troubadour route I would probably just hang up my hat and try something else.

    I know somebody will @ me here with “but this is just normal, not every musician or band deserves to be paid to perform” and that’s fucking rubbish. Either you’re good enough to be hired to perform, in which case you should be paid for your work (which, by the way, is not easy; music work is highly skilled labor), or you’re not, in which case you shouldn’t be exploiting someone for their labor in the first place. But I also generally think the arts are undervalued and know that opinion is not universal here, so.

    joshofalltrades on
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    amateurhouramateurhour One day I'll be professionalhour The woods somewhere in TennesseeRegistered User regular
    Josh I appreciate that post, and congrats on the music career. I know a guy who was in a local band here, and then became like the travelling band for an NFL team, which is a thing I didn't know existed.

    are YOU on the beer list?
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    Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    I got into cooking because it's one of the few creative jobs you can do without much experience. The day I first got something I made put on a menu as a special I felt really proud. I love cooking even through it's a job that rarely pays well. Just about the only benefit of working in kitchens is maybe a free meal when you work a shift. Sometimes you do something because it makes you happy, crazy I know

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    DoodmannDoodmann Registered User regular
    I got into cooking because it's one of the few creative jobs you can do without much experience. The day I first got something I made put on a menu as a special I felt really proud. I love cooking even through it's a job that rarely pays well. Just about the only benefit of working in kitchens is maybe a free meal when you work a shift. Sometimes you do something because it makes you happy, crazy I know

    There are a significant number of people arguing with you in this thread in freelance and creative industries where you get paid in experience and work extra jobs (construction in my case) while developing enough skill to actually get someone to pay you less than you deserve because clean design also looks like simple design.

    I'm sorry that your niche is exploitative, but this is America - you're not special.

    Whippy wrote: »
    nope nope nope nope abort abort talk about anime
    I like to ART
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    Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    That post wasn't an invitation to dunk on me btw I was just saying I like cooking

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    MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Like, literally my biggest gripe with tipping is that people are even legally allowed to not do so. I think that got lost somewhere in the last eight pages. Me, from page 1:
    mcdermott wrote: »
    I actually have no issue whatsoever with an 18% "service fee" being added to checks to ensure staff are well compensated, as long as it's disclosed prominently up front. I'd prefer it be reflected in menu prices, mind. I get why that fails at present, because consumers are morons who would balk at those menu prices (then pay the exact same across the street after tipping). But to me it eliminates any of the awkwardness at the end of "how much was this service worth," and I know that I'm probably paying what everybody else is, easy peasy.

    Paying employees shouldn't ever be optional! It's a bad system!

    "an 18% "service fee" being added to checks"

    Just incorporate the "service fee" into the price of the meal, and not require me to guess at how much the actual bill is going to be.

    Not having all fees, charges and taxes incorporated into the "sticker price" is just fucking dumb.

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    DoodmannDoodmann Registered User regular
    It came off like calling out others as being shitty corporate drones because no one else does work that makes them happy at a financial cost.

    Whippy wrote: »
    nope nope nope nope abort abort talk about anime
    I like to ART
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    Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    Doodmann wrote: »
    It came off like calling out others as being shitty corporate drones because no one else does work that makes them happy at a financial cost.

    Nope not my intention

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    HappylilElfHappylilElf Registered User regular
    Doodmann wrote: »
    It came off like calling out others as being shitty corporate drones because no one else does work that makes them happy at a financial cost.

    Nope not my intention

    Just what you wrote.

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    spool32spool32 Contrary Library Registered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    And to be clear if the answer is "hey man, I think we should tip everyone!" that's not an improvement, because literally all that does is establish a norm by which paying workers is totes optional.

    Which again is how tipping in the US started, and is a kinda sorta bad thing.

    Yeah, I totally agree with you on principle, but at the kind of restaurants I go to (which aren’t generally the type that have a server making more than a senior analyst), me tipping $0 on a $60 check for 3 people doesn’t mean I’m sticking it to the man, it means a single mom has $15-20 less to feed her kids that week.



    I want to know where you're getting a table for three and walking out for $60 after tax. An app for the table, three chicken caesars, and waters all around please!

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    Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    Doodmann wrote: »
    It came off like calling out others as being shitty corporate drones because no one else does work that makes them happy at a financial cost.

    Nope not my intention

    Just what you wrote.

    Sure take it however you want I guess, I'm exhausted by the rhetoric in this thread basically being suck it up loser

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    kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    I like cooking too! Although I only do it at home for my family. We can make this a cooking thread where we give each other tips on how to cook?

    (Just ignore the existence of other such threads on the forums)

    Battle.net ID: kime#1822
    3DS Friend Code: 3110-5393-4113
    Steam profile
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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    I'll be honest, the few times I've been at a place with a musician playing that appeared to be working for tips, it was generally either "tip at least $5" or "just don't tip at all," because as somebody who is also not entirely neurotypical I would feel awkward as fuck putting an amount I considered "too little" in if I'm short on cash. I'd rather avoid the entire interaction. Because I agree, throwing in like fifty cents (and even asking for a request for that) is an insult, I'd be mortified to do that.

    UItimately while it definitely gets lost once the jabs go back and forth, there are two underlying foundations for my hatred of tipping. One, I'm socially awkward and the last thing in the entire world I want is to turn paying my tab into some psuedosocial interaction with actual stakes.. I just want to pay my bill. But for various reasons, I don't consider "just add 15% and treat it as a mandatory tax" to be a real solution there. That is my personal reason for hating the practice, but obviously I can't expect anybody else to give a shit about that. My problems are my problems.

    The other thing though, which you touch on, is that I deeply believe everybody should be paid a living wage for their labor, full stop. Whether they're washing dishes, serving tables, playing music, a bank cashier, slinging Whoppers, or working retail. I've said it a dozen times at least, but the very idea that paying people for their labor should be optional is absurd and obscene to me. If you're playing music for four hours at an establishment, if that's a service they want to offer to their patrons, they should have to pay you a fair wage for those four hours of labor. They should not be forcing you...or their servers...to depend on the voluntary "generosity" of their patrons.

    That for table servers specifically this system results in a "better" outcome (more on that in a moment) is, to me, irrelevant. It's still a bad system, that should be burned down and replaced with fair living wages at a minimum for everybody that is trading hours of their life to their employer for that employer's benefit. Including servers. But also including the person ringing you up at Pinkberry, too. Their life has value.

    As it stands half the abuse in the tipped service industry that have been described...and they're very real, I know this damn well...are arguably actively facilitated by the promise of that sweet, sweet cash if you go along. It's entirely possible that you could better outcomes for table servers by actually having a fair minimum wage and mandated working conditions, and that then they wouldn't have to hustle as hard and put up with the amount of bullshit they do in order to get a bit ahead of other service industry workers. Maybe it means restaurant prices go up a bit, maybe it means the way we approach full food service shifts to make the payroll demands tenable, but ultimately I can't see how eliminating tipping in favor of an actual livable minimum wage for every worker wouldn't vastly improve treatment in that industry. Because yeah, tipped employees get shit on constantly, and they grin and eat that shit, because they want their tips and desperately want to not go work a register and eat the same shit for less money than they're pocketing now. Tips are the carrot, and untipped service wages are the stick. It's a license for abuse by management, I've seen it personally and plenty more second-hand. It's "better" in that it does allow a small subset of service workers to make a bit more money, but it's worse because it encourages rampant abuse and continues to normalize the idea that paying labor should somehow be optional. That paying a human being for their time is somehow "generosity." Perpetuating the system is penny wise, pound foolish, in my opinion.

    Like in all this the real issue has been clear; the minimum wage isn't enough. That's it, that's the primary problem. A minimum wage that a human being cannot live on, and rampant income inequality.

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    MagellMagell Detroit Machine Guns Fort MyersRegistered User regular
    Doodmann wrote: »
    It came off like calling out others as being shitty corporate drones because no one else does work that makes them happy at a financial cost.

    Or an explanation for why people work jobs that pay like shit and don't have benefits. I don't know why you would take the negative view of that story right after what Josh posted.

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    SmokeStacksSmokeStacks Registered User regular
    music work is highly skilled labor)

    I've read that professional musicians (along with professional photographers) are constantly fighting the "just do [event] for free man, you'll get paid in ~~~exposure~~~" line, but the best story I read was about an exasperated musician who was trying to negotiate rates for his band to play at a wedding reception with the planner who was trying to book them for an incredibly stingy rate. Finally he gave up, and told the planner something like "I'll tell you what, go out and get a quote for what it would cost you to hire five plumbers or electricians for six hours on a Saturday and we'll do the gig for half of that" and hung up. Could be bullshit, but its a fun story.

    The only places I tend to see live musicians is at bars on open nights, and buskers in the street (of which, in my city, in the spring and summer, there are an imperial fuckload). I don't tip open mic'ers but if I like their music I'll take their card with whatever website they are selling their music at printed on it and sometimes I'll buy some if its DRM free. I don't know what sort of cut those indie distribution websites take, but part of me wonders if it would be financially feasible for a musician to buy USB sticks (you can get decent sized ones for like $2-$3 a piece if you buy in bulk) and just sell them individually directly to people in the audience with a copy of their current album on them for $15 or $20 or whatever. Inebriatedstacks would rather buy one of those and pay the musician directly with cash rather than going home, potentially losing the card, and dealing with another website.

    My rule for street buskers is that I don't give them money unless their music is good enough to make me stop walking and listen.
    kime wrote: »
    I like cooking too! Although I only do it at home for my family. We can make this a cooking thread where we give each other tips on how to cook?

    (Just ignore the existence of other such threads on the forums)

    I make a pretty decent batch of sausage and peppers when I am hungry and motivated.

    Oh shit I mean lemme give you this great recipe for a rub I use on tri-tip steak.

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    spool32spool32 Contrary Library Registered User regular
    Doodmann wrote: »
    Magell wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    And yes, as we see here, it clearly pits customers against staff, while ownership laughs all the way to the bank.

    That's not a good thing either!

    Restaurants generally have pretty shitty profit margins so probably not all the way to the bank.

    Maybe if the entire restraunt industry exists on the knife edge of underpaying labor while also exploiting the guilt of the consumer for said underpayed labor the whole fucking industry needs to be rethought.

    If you want to serve someone a slice of apple pie, you must first invent the universe....


    Fixing the restaurant industry in this way needs a rework of government food subsidies, a solution to food deserts, a new generation of cooks and a revival of home cooking as a skill, and a recognition of the damage to low-income jobs that a realignment will cause. I don't think it would even be possible if we hadn't had a pandemic drive so many people into WFH situations where we're not consuming our cooking time with a commute.

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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    I got into cooking because it's one of the few creative jobs you can do without much experience. The day I first got something I made put on a menu as a special I felt really proud. I love cooking even through it's a job that rarely pays well. Just about the only benefit of working in kitchens is maybe a free meal when you work a shift. Sometimes you do something because it makes you happy, crazy I know

    I only ever washed dishes when BOH, but I actually sometimes enjoyed the whole energy back there. At least with a good crew. Sometimes it had that same stupid comraderie that I had in the military, though that sounds silly to say...but it's something I haven't seen in a lot of other jobs I've worked. I still remember a lot of the cooks I worked with, they were good dudes.

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    HappylilElfHappylilElf Registered User regular
    edited March 2023
    Doodmann wrote: »
    It came off like calling out others as being shitty corporate drones because no one else does work that makes them happy at a financial cost.

    Nope not my intention

    Just what you wrote.

    Sure take it however you want I guess, I'm exhausted by the rhetoric in this thread basically being suck it up loser

    That hasn't been the rhetoric in the thread.

    The rhetoric in the thread has been you wanting us all to know that you're very special and that you work the hardest job(s) and that no one else even works or if they do they probably work in a comfy office and lol that's not even work so they don't do work work like we do in the food service industry and they probably never did or they'd know just how hard I, Local H Jay, er I mean food service industry workers have it.

    And you know what?

    That's exhausting.

    HappylilElf on
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    CasualCasual Wiggle Wiggle Wiggle Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    MorganV wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Like, literally my biggest gripe with tipping is that people are even legally allowed to not do so. I think that got lost somewhere in the last eight pages. Me, from page 1:
    mcdermott wrote: »
    I actually have no issue whatsoever with an 18% "service fee" being added to checks to ensure staff are well compensated, as long as it's disclosed prominently up front. I'd prefer it be reflected in menu prices, mind. I get why that fails at present, because consumers are morons who would balk at those menu prices (then pay the exact same across the street after tipping). But to me it eliminates any of the awkwardness at the end of "how much was this service worth," and I know that I'm probably paying what everybody else is, easy peasy.

    Paying employees shouldn't ever be optional! It's a bad system!

    "an 18% "service fee" being added to checks"

    Just incorporate the "service fee" into the price of the meal, and not require me to guess at how much the actual bill is going to be.

    Not having all fees, charges and taxes incorporated into the "sticker price" is just fucking dumb.

    And illegal in most of Europe for a reason. The price is the price and if you're taking money off someone you should be explicit before the fact what that number is going to be. Obfuscating or misrepresenting that number via various "additional charge" shenanigans is fraud. Getting people through the door with ONE DOLLAR HAMBURGERS in size 1000 font then springing the small print detailing what the actual cost of the hamburger is after the fact is a scam.

    As a non-American it is weird to me the degree to which that particular scam is tolerated and normalised, let alone mixed in with abusive labour practices. It's total cultural whiplash for me.

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    Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    edited March 2023
    Doodmann wrote: »
    It came off like calling out others as being shitty corporate drones because no one else does work that makes them happy at a financial cost.

    Nope not my intention

    Just what you wrote.

    Sure take it however you want I guess, I'm exhausted by the rhetoric in this thread basically being suck it up loser

    That hasn't been the rhetoric in the thread.

    The rhetoric in the thread has been you wanting us all to know that you're very special and that you work the hardest job(s) and that no one else even works or if they do they probably work in a comfy office and lol that's not even work so they don't do work work like we do in the food service industry and they probably never did or they'd know just how hard I, Local H Jay, er I mean food service industry workers have it.

    And you know what?

    That's exhausting.

    This is as uncharitable as ElJeffe tipping on takeout

    Local H Jay on
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    joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    music work is highly skilled labor)

    I've read that professional musicians (along with professional photographers) are constantly fighting the "just do [event] for free man, you'll get paid in ~~~exposure~~~" line, but the best story I read was about an exasperated musician who was trying to negotiate rates for his band to play at a wedding reception with the planner who was trying to book them for an incredibly stingy rate. Finally he gave up, and told the planner something like "I'll tell you what, go out and get a quote for what it would cost you to hire five plumbers or electricians for six hours on a Saturday and we'll do the gig for half of that" and hung up. Could be bullshit, but its a fun story.

    The only places I tend to see live musicians is at bars on open nights, and buskers in the street (of which, in my city, in the spring and summer, there are an imperial fuckload). I don't tip open mic'ers but if I like their music I'll take their card with whatever website they are selling their music at printed on it and sometimes I'll buy some if its DRM free. I don't know what sort of cut those indie distribution websites take, but part of me wonders if it would be financially feasible for a musician to buy USB sticks (you can get decent sized ones for like $2-$3 a piece if you buy in bulk) and just sell them individually directly to people in the audience with a copy of their current album on them for $15 or $20 or whatever. Inebriatedstacks would rather buy one of those and pay the musician directly with cash rather than going home, potentially losing the card, and dealing with another website.

    My rule for street buskers is that I don't give them money unless their music is good enough to make me stop walking and listen.
    kime wrote: »
    I like cooking too! Although I only do it at home for my family. We can make this a cooking thread where we give each other tips on how to cook?

    (Just ignore the existence of other such threads on the forums)

    I make a pretty decent batch of sausage and peppers when I am hungry and motivated.

    Oh shit I mean lemme give you this great recipe for a rub I use on tri-tip steak.

    The thing is it’s not just four hours of labor. Good musicians practice at their instruments, learn new techniques, expand their repertoires so they can accommodate requests, maintain their gear, rehearse (which is extra hard if you’re a band and have to synchronize schedules), etc. And that’s just the background stuff to get yourself ready to play a gig in the first place, and it never ends.

    After that you have to haul all your shit to the venue (which, depending on the size of your group and your gear, can be physically demanding). If the venue doesn’t have a sound system you bring your own and you also have to be an audio engineer so your mix isn’t shit.

    I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve explained to a venue owner who has never hired live music before why it’s “so expensive” for “just four hours”. If they were really hiring somebody for just four hours it would be somebody literally just showing up with an acoustic guitar they never play at home.

    So the promise of playing for tips for all of that work is like walking into a job interview and having the hiring manager tell you “you’re going to work 8-5 every day and maybe you’ll get paid sometimes; it depends on how people feel on a day to day basis”. Fucking… no thanks. At least servers are expected to get tipped by society. Next time you see somebody playing live music watch how many people walk past the open guitar case/tip jar and put absolutely nothing in it.

    I don’t play for tips anymore. Pay me or I’ll go somewhere else.

  • Options
    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    Casual wrote: »
    And illegal in most of Europe for a reason. The price is the price and if you're taking money off someone you should be explicit before the fact what that number is going to be. Obfuscating or misrepresenting that number via various "additional charge" shenanigans is fraud. Getting people through the door with ONE DOLLAR HAMBURGERS in size 1000 font then springing the small print detailing what the actual cost of the hamburger is after the fact is a scam.

    As a non-American it is weird to me the degree to which that particular scam is tolerated and normalised, let alone mixed in with abusive labour practices. It's total cultural whiplash for me.

    It's great dining in Europe for this reason. Both because you generally don't have to worry about how much the price will be (where I've been a Euro or two tip is appreciated but hardly "expected") and because it means your interactions with the staff there are so much more genuine. You don't have to wonder if it's transactional.

    But really yes it's very consumer-friendly to know that when you order two $9.95 plates and two $2 drinks that your check is going to be $24. And that you can pay $24 without anybody thinking you're a gaping asshole, though if you wanna pay $25 sure go wild. Unless you are very, very good at math it's super difficult for an American consumer to keep track of that kind of thing as they order. Like here I've got a 9% or so sales tax to add on, plus you have to scour the fine print to find out of there's a 4% "living wage fee" that'll be added, then you don't know if the check is going to come out with a 18% or 22% or even 24% "suggested" tip. So that same $24 meal? Fuck, I guess it could be anywhere from $30.86 up to maybe $33.19. And if you're ordering for a family of four? Good luck keeping that tab going in your head. Yeah, I'm lucky I'm in a position where this normally isn't going to be a problem for me but even then sometimes we wind up with serious sticker shock when the bill comes, like how the fuck is this tab for two $70? And it's because $20 of that is post-menu-price additions. An annoyance for us, but could be a legitimate problem for somebody who's trying to treat their family on a tight budget.

  • Options
    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve explained to a venue owner who has never hired live music before why it’s “so expensive” for “just four hours”. If they were really hiring somebody for just four hours it would be somebody literally just showing up with an acoustic guitar they never play at home.

    Oh man I'd be all over this gig. I'll give you four hours of alternating "Wonderwall" and "Where Is My Mind," sure to make the guests happy!

  • Options
    MagellMagell Detroit Machine Guns Fort MyersRegistered User regular
    edited March 2023
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Casual wrote: »
    And illegal in most of Europe for a reason. The price is the price and if you're taking money off someone you should be explicit before the fact what that number is going to be. Obfuscating or misrepresenting that number via various "additional charge" shenanigans is fraud. Getting people through the door with ONE DOLLAR HAMBURGERS in size 1000 font then springing the small print detailing what the actual cost of the hamburger is after the fact is a scam.

    As a non-American it is weird to me the degree to which that particular scam is tolerated and normalised, let alone mixed in with abusive labour practices. It's total cultural whiplash for me.

    It's great dining in Europe for this reason. Both because you generally don't have to worry about how much the price will be (where I've been a Euro or two tip is appreciated but hardly "expected") and because it means your interactions with the staff there are so much more genuine. You don't have to wonder if it's transactional.

    But really yes it's very consumer-friendly to know that when you order two $9.95 plates and two $2 drinks that your check is going to be $24. And that you can pay $24 without anybody thinking you're a gaping asshole, though if you wanna pay $25 sure go wild. Unless you are very, very good at math it's super difficult for an American consumer to keep track of that kind of thing as they order. Like here I've got a 9% or so sales tax to add on, plus you have to scour the fine print to find out of there's a 4% "living wage fee" that'll be added, then you don't know if the check is going to come out with a 18% or 22% or even 24% "suggested" tip. So that same $24 meal? Fuck, I guess it could be anywhere from $30.86 up to maybe $33.19. And if you're ordering for a family of four? Good luck keeping that tab going in your head. Yeah, I'm lucky I'm in a position where this normally isn't going to be a problem for me but even then sometimes we wind up with serious sticker shock when the bill comes, like how the fuck is this tab for two $70? And it's because $20 of that is post-menu-price additions. An annoyance for us, but could be a legitimate problem for somebody who's trying to treat their family on a tight budget.

    No they're not they're still being paid to be there and keep you happy. It's not like removing tipping will make waitstaff like the customers more.

    Magell on
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    joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve explained to a venue owner who has never hired live music before why it’s “so expensive” for “just four hours”. If they were really hiring somebody for just four hours it would be somebody literally just showing up with an acoustic guitar they never play at home.

    Oh man I'd be all over this gig. I'll give you four hours of alternating "Wonderwall" and "Where Is My Mind," sure to make the guests happy!

    In my experience Your Mind would be smeared across the pavement in front of the motorcycle parking, probably

  • Options
    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited March 2023
    Magell wrote: »
    No they're not they're still being paid to be there and keep you happy. It's not like removing tipping will make waitstaff like the customers more.

    It's very hard to describe, but I find I have more casual conversations with staff there, and encounter a lot less...I don't know, call it "aggressive courtesy." I'm describing it poorly. Like if the server is chatting with us for a minute it's just because they're chatting with us, not to get a tip. But there's a lot less fake enthusiasm and constant "checking up" on you. Which, frankly, I prefer.

    I feel more like just a customer that's being served, and less like a wallet with feet.

    EDIT: Like when I went out of my way to give a customer a good experience when working retail...there was neither expectation nor hope that I'd make any more money for doing that. I just did it, because it was my job. And I low-key kinda cared if they were happy with their purchase.

    mcdermott on
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    ElJeffeElJeffe Roaming the streets, waving his mod gun around.Moderator, ClubPA Mod Emeritus
    kime wrote: »
    I like cooking too! Although I only do it at home for my family. We can make this a cooking thread where we give each other tips on how to cook?

    (Just ignore the existence of other such threads on the forums)

    Proper salting of your meats is essential to making them both tasty and moist! Liberally salt your steaks 2-3 hours before you cook them, and soak your chicken filets in a brine bath for about 15 minutes. This will ensure your dishes come out delicious!

    Also, tip your waiters.

    I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
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    SmokeStacksSmokeStacks Registered User regular
    This is a 100% text based medium that lacks the intonation and other cues of normal speech. If a guy says something and it gets interpreted a certain way and then the guy says that's not what he meant than lets just assume he is being honest and let it go. If we do that, than he can let it go too.
    mcdermott wrote: »
    only ever washed dishes when BOH, but I actually sometimes enjoyed the whole energy back there. At least with a good crew. Sometimes it had that same stupid comraderie that I had in the military, though that sounds silly to say...but it's something I haven't seen in a lot of other jobs I've worked. I still remember a lot of the cooks I worked with, they were good dudes.

    The place I worked at when I first me $0 check guy was a buffet. A buffet in a mall. To set the scene on how little this place gave a shit when I showed up to the interview the manager had double booked me and another guy. He showed up wearing gym shorts and a flaming dragon button up shirt with no resume. He interviewed us both at the same time and we both got hired.

    I was a "carver". I stood at a station in a white chef's outfit and a red cravat and a stupid fucking Chef Boyardee hat and shot the shit with old people while cutting them pieces of meat, while also occasionally taking special orders back to the cooks - the big thing was we had a lot of seniors come in, and they loved the pork ribs when we had them, but a lot of them couldn't handle the barbeque sauce because it was "too spicy" (it was not spicy). The policy was we would absolutely offer people ribs without sauce on them, but none of the customers seemed to know that, so a good way to get in good with them was, after they expressed dismay about the sauce, lean in close, look left, then right, get real quiet and say something like "lemme see what I can do, where are you sitting?". Then after they go and sit down I'd just head to the kitchen and ask the cook to set aside a plate without sauce when the next batch came out. He lets me know when they're ready, I bring them to the table. They loved that shit, and it got me tips and named reviews on the customer service line they printed on the receipts. I felt like one of those dancing monkeys in front of an organ grinder but it paid the bills.

    This was not a traditionally tipped position, but I got along with everyone so well that I started getting tipped, which was surprising but also very welcomed. To reign it in closer to your point though a lot of times if it was a super busy night and there was still a massive pile when we closed I'd go jump in the dishpit with the guys for an hour or whatever to help get them all done quicker. It helped them out, but it also got me an extra hour of OT, an hour of being able to share my completely unfiltered thoughts about the customers I had served over the course of my shift, and lastly (if the weather was shitty) it would get me a ride home. The comraderie was definitely there, I would unironically enjoy that hour breaking balls with the dish crew way more than the preceding 8-10 I spent out on the floor, even on days when my favorite regulars were there and the cute waitresses were working. There is something about shared suffering, especially at work, that bonds people together. That place did not pool tips at all, so anyone that wasn't a server or sometimes me basically got fucked into a mediocre hourly wage, so there was a lot of suffering.

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    ThawmusThawmus +Jackface Registered User regular
    This whole thread is like a conversation I have with my wife every few months, lol.

    I'm in IT and she's in food service. I have a deep appreciation for food service workers because I once was one, and no lie, I would not be here if I didn't get the fuck out of there. You could not get me to go back without giving me enough money that I'd just buy the place and burn it to the fucking ground. There is a space in our food service industry between the customer and the worker that is so fucking disgusting and classist that it makes me want to scream and throw shit at people. I literally hate eating out. I immediately feel like an asshole, paying someone to come and ask me if I need more food to put in my mouth hole. Fucking irritates me. I'm a goddamned adult but treating someone else like my mouth caddy is supposed to be a normal indulgence I don't give two shits about? Just been one of those things for me my whole life, won't ever get over it and don't want to, either. It's why I prefer food trucks to restaurants.

    Conversely, while my wife knows this where I am, she really likes to host and wait on people and she's extremely nice and kind and personable and she enjoys all the interactions she has daily. But occasionally she is hit with the realization of what my job is like and she just has a lot of contempt for me because of it. Because I was able to take enough time out of my work day to go grab a soda, chat with sales staff, grill a steak on the grill out back, drink some water, go for a walk at the park on my lunch break, etc. White collar jobs can come with a lot of freedoms that will make a food service worker see red.

    Twitch: Thawmus83
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    DoodmannDoodmann Registered User regular
    Actual footage of Smokestacks

    https://youtu.be/J6K7VBb8ENw

    Whippy wrote: »
    nope nope nope nope abort abort talk about anime
    I like to ART
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