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[Marvel Snap] THIS THREAD IS DEAD! POST IN THE NEW ONE!

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    milskimilski Poyo! Registered User regular
    milski wrote: »
    Yeah but any weaker and he's just a shitty hulk for one less cost and meh, I think I'm mostly positive on these changes especially the Aero one thank god

    I mean, 5 vs. 6 is a huge distinction, he shouldn't be putting out Hulk Stats.

    Considering how easy it is to lower cost, I don't see that big a difference in most games

    There are no coherent decks built around lowering the cost of any 6-drop (besides She Hulk).

    I ate an engineer
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    heenatoheenato Alice Leywind Registered User regular
    edited March 2023
    It was. I have a second shop with coulson. You might need to restart the client and make sure it's updated.

    heenato on
    M A G I K A Z A M
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    Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    Bwuh? Isn't that like, the entire point of Mister Negative? Or Electro Ramp? Or Wave?

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    milskimilski Poyo! Registered User regular
    edited March 2023
    Bwuh? Isn't that like, the entire point of Mister Negative? Or Electro Ramp? Or Wave?

    Not in the context of big beaters, ramp isn't cost reduction, and not really because Deathwave is more about Death + She Hulk + a tech card than 6 drops. You can't just say 5 and 6 drops should do the same thing as if people are cost reducing Hulk all the time.

    milski on
    I ate an engineer
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    Doctor DetroitDoctor Detroit Not a doctor Tree townRegistered User regular
    I wonder if they should just make all cost-reduction stop when the cost hits 1. That seems to be where they’re going.

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    Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    edited March 2023
    milski wrote: »
    Bwuh? Isn't that like, the entire point of Mister Negative? Or Electro Ramp? Or Wave?

    Not in the context of big beaters, ramp isn't cost reduction, and not really because Deathwave is more about Death + She Hulk + a tech card than 6 drops.

    Idk I sure reduced the cost on my cards to play Leech on 4 and then a 6 on turn 5 so I can get two 6 costs down? And like, I can clone the first 6 cost with Zola? Like I'm no infinite player but I feel like I see a lot of costs going down, especially when you factor in locations that mess with it too

    Local H Jay on
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    captainkcaptaink TexasRegistered User regular
    I wonder if they should just make all cost-reduction stop when the cost hits 1. That seems to be where they’re going.

    I mean, that is how Sera works. Not sure why Quinjet was ever different.

    I still think Negative should be able to make cards cost 0, but that may need to change over time.

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    captainkcaptaink TexasRegistered User regular
    edited March 2023
    Red Skull being a 5 means you can do Shuri-Skull-Tasky/Zola without any ramp or cost reductions. It's a big part of his deal.

    Edit: and if you are doing ramp it means you can play him on 4, when 6 drops only come on turns 5 and 6. So three big drops in a row.

    captaink on
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    captainkcaptaink TexasRegistered User regular
    Series drop has evidently happened too because Orka is in my Free Series 3 shop.

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    SeGaTaiSeGaTai Registered User regular
    Feel like quinjet was reasonable being different then sera/zabu because there is only a limited number of ways to add cards to your deck. Now quinjet gets used to reduce some cards added by maria hill/ coulson - and moongirl - just feels like a card that isn't going to get played very much

    And it turns out the stone interaction is just a hang up by the developer

    twitter.com/Glenn_Jones_/status/1638223233257451521

    Which I don't really agree with since it is not intuitive from the opposing player's pov - the first time you played against a thanos deck and saw them dropping stones after quinjet - there is nothing intuitive about why there cost was reduced and you probably had to play against that deck 5-6 times before you ever even saw thanos.

    PSN SeGaTai
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    Doctor DetroitDoctor Detroit Not a doctor Tree townRegistered User regular
    captaink wrote: »
    I wonder if they should just make all cost-reduction stop when the cost hits 1. That seems to be where they’re going.

    I mean, that is how Sera works. Not sure why Quinjet was ever different.

    I still think Negative should be able to make cards cost 0, but that may need to change over time.

    Negative could be argued to NOT be cost-reduction. So it would be okay.

    I’d also leave Swarm alone. And I’m leaning toward Elysium being allowed to reduce to 0.

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    captainkcaptaink TexasRegistered User regular
    captaink wrote: »
    I wonder if they should just make all cost-reduction stop when the cost hits 1. That seems to be where they’re going.

    I mean, that is how Sera works. Not sure why Quinjet was ever different.

    I still think Negative should be able to make cards cost 0, but that may need to change over time.

    Negative could be argued to NOT be cost-reduction. So it would be okay.

    I’d also leave Swarm alone. And I’m leaning toward Elysium being allowed to reduce to 0.

    Yeah, I think in rules text there's a clear demarcation between cards that reduce cost and cards that change costs.

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    MNC DoverMNC Dover Full-time Voice Actor Kirkland, WARegistered User regular
    Got Orka for free since he was the only S4 card dropping to S3 I didn’t have. Opened my 10 Caches and got tokens, a Venomized Nova, and steampunk Bishop.

    Currently at 6900 tokens (nice!) with Thanos still pinned. Will wait before pulling the trigger although he’s always gonna be 6k so it might no matter. But I could shift to Galactus.

    Need a voice actor? Hire me at bengrayVO.com
    Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
    Switch ID: MNC Dover SW-1154-3107-1051
    Steam ID
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    captainkcaptaink TexasRegistered User regular
    edited March 2023
    Datamined upcoming cards.
    Howard The Duck [1/2]: Ongoing: Tap this to see the top card of your deck.
    High Evolutionary [4/7]: At the start of the game, unlock the secret ability of all your cards with no abilities.
    • Evolved Wasp [0/1]: On Reveal: Afflict 2 random enemy cards here with -1 Power.
    • Evolved Misty Knight [1/2]: When you end a turn with unspent Energy, give another friendly card +1 Power.
    • Evolved Shocker [2/3]: On Reveal: Give the leftmost card in your hand -1 Cost.
    • Evolved Cyclops [3/4]: When you end a turn with unspent Energy, afflict 2 random enemies here with -1 Power.
    • Evolved The Thing [4/6]: On Reveal: Afflict a random enemy card here with -1 Power. Repeat this twice more.
    • Evolved Abomination [5/9]: Costs 1 less for each enemy card in play that’s afflicted with negative Power.
    • Evolved Hulk [6/12]: Ongoing: +2 Power for each turn you ended with unspent Energy.
    Iron Lad [4/6]: On Reveal: Copy the text of your deck’s top card.

    All sound really interesting!

    captaink on
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    kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    edited March 2023
    Does High Evolutionary work in Patriot decks?

    Edit: I mean I assume we don't know, just curious if the data mining was specific enough.

    kime on
    Battle.net ID: kime#1822
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    SeGaTaiSeGaTai Registered User regular
    edited March 2023
    I'm guessing they won't; the evolved cards are just listed with an ability like any other card so presumably they won't

    SeGaTai on
    PSN SeGaTai
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    captainkcaptaink TexasRegistered User regular
    Opened my caches and spent my credits. Got Phil Coulson, Black Widow, a cool Spider-Man variant I haven't seen before, and the Steampunk Shocker.

    That plus Orka/Attuma dropping means I'm still 15 away from series 3 complete.

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    ChaosHatChaosHat Hop, hop, hop, HA! Trick of the lightRegistered User regular
    edited March 2023
    MNC Dover wrote: »
    Yeah, I'm not 100% sold on these changes. Definitely nerfs to the strongest decks, but I don't know if they'll be enough.

    Getting to Shang Chi a Red Skull to deny a Taskmaster is great, but that's assuming you have priority. She Hulk -> Taskmaster often doesn't have priority since they skip turn 5, allowing for 18 power twice. That will probably be the safer evolution of Shuri decks.

    Lockjaw not getting changed still allows for degenerate Thanos decks to thrive. They're definitely slower from the Quinjet nerf, but Leech can still come down on 4 if you played the Time Stone play prior. The Space Stone change is great and just what was needed.

    Still though, Lockjaw is the problem here. A much bigger deal than Thanos or Leech.

    But who knows? Maybe it's enough? Not holding my breath though.

    Dover. I understand your pain. However, I find that in general, gamers are really really good at finding problems and then equally bad at solving them. Let's go on a journey of why I think the changes are not only 1) good but 2) a reason to believe SD has nuance and an understanding of the game they haven't shown before, thereby reinvigorating my faith into this game and it's future (point 2 was much bigger). This will be longer.

    Part the First: Thanos and his Dog

    Lockjaw is not the problem. Now, why do I think this? Because nobody ever cared about Thor Lockjaw which also ran Leech. Or Discard Lockjaw. We know the problem has to be something about the Thanos Lockjaw incarnation. Let's examine why Leech is a bad card (yes, a bad card).

    Leech is a fucking 5/3. That's ass. That puts you so far behind that even without my cards having text, I'll probably just beat you by playing my textless Magneto in your Leech lane. You have to be really, really far ahead for Leech to not put you in the dumpster. I cannot tell you how many times bad Thanos players have said "LEECH I WIN BUTTON LOL" and played a naked Leech on 5, retreated on 6, because they were fucked. So, why is Leech good now? Because the Thanos deck lets you cheat this trade off. You're either getting Leech in exchange for a 1 or 0 energy stone, so Leech is actually net UP stats on the thing you threw in. Alternatively, you can toss Leech INTO Lockjaw and then get a Magneto out, again, avoiding paying the true cost of Leech.

    Now obviously you can still do all that shit right? You can pitch the stones in and get a Leech for 1 energy. See Hat nothing was fixed. I think that's missing the forest for the trees here. It really dramatically reduces the explosiveness and high highs of the Lockjaw deck where it could really rapidly get off the ground on TURN 3 and build an unassailable advantage. Now you're playing Lockjaw on 3 and playing stones on 4, and you don't really get to play anything else. Before you could play the stones and not fuck up your curve. Now you have to make a choice. You can also still ramp into Leech on 4, I honestly think Leech on 4 or 5 is a bit of a wash, and it's definitely a worse play now that you can't play the Time Stone for free. I have played a lot of games into fair ramp decks that do Electro, Leech, Sandman. And they lose. A LOT. Why? Because that's a lot of turns to be playing under rate cards and then have to come back all on the last turn. The Time Stone ramp is very similar. Leech on 4 is a double edged sword by giving your opponent a bonus draw.

    Further, part of the problem with Thanos/Lockjaw is THE SPACE STONE. Why aren't those other Lockjaw decks amazing? Because they are very good at winning the Lockjaw lane but their achilles heel is winning a second. That's why Discard works. You play Morbius somewhere, you toss in your discarding things into Lockjaw and BAM. Power in a second lane. That's why Thor is good! Put Thor somewhere. Cycle Mjolnir a couple times and boom baby you got a stew going. Another reason why Vision was good in that deck. You know what's really fucking broken? Moving your Lockjaw and starting the party again in a second lane. Or just moving any of your big things that weren't meant to be moved (like Vision). For free. The Space Stone change dramatically neuters this. Yes, you could move Lockjaw, but definitionally you're getting fewer rerolls because that will have at least one slot filled. You also cannot repeat cycle the Space Stone and move multiple things OUT of Lockjaw.

    Lastly, changing Thanos from a 6/11 to a 6/10 is a meaningful ner-hahahahaha no it doesn't fucking matter.

    I think it's possible, if not PROBABLE that the Thanos deck is just a little too juiced. I actually think the play pattern of the deck can be fun and unique. It's just too good. So we don't need to kill the deck, we need to make it less good and stifling. I think they did that here.

    Part the second: Shuri and her Amazing Friends

    Shuri is a study of a lot of little itty bitty changes resulting in potentially a really big change. So some things are obvious. Smaller Red Skull, easier to beat, less power copied on Taskmaster. Super straightforward. Same thing with She-Hulk (which was already being run in Shuri). And those cards will absolutely be big still and they'll be copied and you'll lose to big ol dudes. That's fine! That's what the deck does and it would be silly if it didn't win. But shaving a few points of power here or there does mean that sometimes you will get edged out in a game here or there, even if that's only once out of one hundred.

    But something like the Taskmaster change might seem meaningless. "But Hat, they always play Red Skull behind Cosmo or Armor" but sometimes they DON'T right? Sometimes you just don't draw that until turn 4 or 5 and you can't stop what you're doing to play a fucking 3/6 Cosmo. Opening up a window where you can kill the Red Skull and neuter the Taskmaster might only happen in 1 or 2 or 3 out of 100 games whatever, but that's literally a straight -% to win rate right there.

    (I think the Aero change is a wash for this deck, so I'm not going to go over it). This section is less long because I think the Shuri changes are way more straightforward and I also think the deck was less good. Thanos was a clear #1, and Shuri was a 1b at best, maybe a 2.

    Part the third: Ben Brode is no longer shaking my confidence daily

    Overall I think these changes show a lot of deft maneuvering. Thanos and Shuri are cards that do fun, unique things and you could very easily hit them with a hammer and make them either unplayable (Shuri to 5 cost) or lose the fun spark of it (Shuri to +5 buff instead of doubling, or fucking up Lockjaw). We also got confirmation as I was typing this that OTAs are back on the menu, which is why they went lighter on Shuri, it's very easy to tick down her numbers, Thanos really required more structural card text changes. They get it, and they're not just overreacting to community sentiment. I would like for them to act faster in the future but I think there were understandable unforeseen circumstances.

    In the end, it's not that you had a bad meta. If you're doing your job as a designer you should have bad, overpowered metas sometimes otherwise you're playing it too safe and coloring inside the lines. Explore! Do new, interesting shit. Then fix it! This is a new game. They're learning a lot as they do it. It's how they clean up the bad metas and move forward that ultimately means the most.

    ChaosHat on
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    Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver You don't have to attend every argument you are invited to. Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    it's very annoying whenever they go "the problem is card X so instead of nerfing or changing those cards we're nerfing/changing the things that enable them"

    Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
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    ChaosHatChaosHat Hop, hop, hop, HA! Trick of the lightRegistered User regular
    it's very annoying whenever they go "the problem is card X so instead of nerfing or changing those cards we're nerfing/changing the things that enable them"

    The problem is very rarely "card x" it's usually "how card x interacts with card y (and z and possibly others)" so you can usually attack them via multiple routes. The exception is a broad auto include card (She-Hulk, Aero) and then you can nerf them directly.

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    Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver You don't have to attend every argument you are invited to. Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    it's very annoying whenever they go "the problem is card X so instead of nerfing or changing those cards we're nerfing/changing the things that enable them"

    The problem is very rarely "card x" it's usually "how card x interacts with card y (and z and possibly others)" so you can usually attack them via multiple routes. The exception is a broad auto include card (She-Hulk, Aero) and then you can nerf them directly.

    I mean, I get that. It doesn't make it not frustrating when my low tier deck catches strays because of fuckin shuri and thanos.

    Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
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    antheremantherem Registered User regular
    What's good to swap in for the now-useless Quinjet in Thanos? I hadn't quite made the infinite climb yet and I'd hate to just retire Thanos. Good ol' Korg/Iceman?

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    ChaosHatChaosHat Hop, hop, hop, HA! Trick of the lightRegistered User regular
    antherem wrote: »
    What's good to swap in for the now-useless Quinjet in Thanos? I hadn't quite made the infinite climb yet and I'd hate to just retire Thanos. Good ol' Korg/Iceman?

    My swap was for Vision. This helps offset the Space Stone nerf. You could also do Nightcrawler I suppose but like...I dunno the deck doesn't need more cheap fodder to toss into Lockjaw.

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    discriderdiscrider Registered User regular
    SeGaTai wrote: »
    Saw it brought up on twitter - but the quinjet change hurts a bunch of mediocre decks that might have used collector or moongirl/hood - just because they couldn't figure out how to just code the stones as starting in the thanos deck for the purpose of quinjet

    Hits my Dino+Shulk+Shulk line.
    But I guess Aero got the Leader treatment, so..

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    ChaosHatChaosHat Hop, hop, hop, HA! Trick of the lightRegistered User regular
    I'm pretty sure Aero is waaaaay better than Leader still.

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    Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    edited March 2023
    Aero now only fucks up one part of my combo instead of the whole thing, so depending on the deck it could actually be an improvement to her but still, feels nice after having so many upsets at her hands

    Local H Jay on
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    discriderdiscrider Registered User regular
    Eh...
    You might be able to pull one thing into Fisk?
    How does Aero interact with having a last thing played into her space?

    At least Leader can hold down a lane after Doc Ock fills left.
    Aero just loses her lane in a turn when the opponent thinks they can win 2+ lanes from behind.

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    SmurphSmurph Registered User regular
    Some of those High Evolutionary cards will fit nice in a Wong deck

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    akjakakjak Thera Spooky GymRegistered User regular
    discrider wrote: »
    Eh...
    You might be able to pull one thing into Fisk?
    How does Aero interact with having a last thing played into her space?

    The same thing she always did if you played to her space... Nothing.

    Switch: SW-4133-1546-2720 (Thera)
    Twitch: akThera
    Steam: Thera
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    Doctor DetroitDoctor Detroit Not a doctor Tree townRegistered User regular
    Got my first 600 token cache. Probably my last, as well. :p Only 700 away from Thanos, and I guess it’s still a decent deck, so I’ll leave the pin there for now.

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    initiatefailureinitiatefailure Registered User regular
    burning credits today got me my last 3 meaningful s3 drops all in a row, ultron/thor/dracula! Now i just need to collect 8 bad cards (or 7 i guess i can claim one)

    somewhat annoyingly i still have credits left over and despite having 26 cards i could upgrade, they are all extra variants i don't want to.

    also i got up to 50 (from the 10 floor) right before the patch. the new rank system might have been a bandaid but it's really nice for players like me that aren't playing enough raw games to get higher lol.

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    ChaosHatChaosHat Hop, hop, hop, HA! Trick of the lightRegistered User regular
    edited March 2023
    discrider wrote: »
    Eh...
    You might be able to pull one thing into Fisk?
    How does Aero interact with having a last thing played into her space?

    At least Leader can hold down a lane after Doc Ock fills left.
    Aero just loses her lane in a turn when the opponent thinks they can win 2+ lanes from behind.

    At the very least Aero will be good into Wave combos because your opponent can only play one thing while you'll play her + She-Hulk or Death.

    Worse Aero also makes worse Aero better. Basically current Aero chases out playing one big thing on 6 because you'll be Aero'd (aside from Doom, who doesn't care). If Aero is less automatically run in every deck, that means those decks that want to play one fat card can exist, which means she'll be better against that.

    Basically she'll be a tech card instead of a generically good card.

    ChaosHat on
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    akjakakjak Thera Spooky GymRegistered User regular
    edited March 2023
    People mad about Aero were the ones gleefully dumpstering an entire turn 6, and that’s obviously gross and unfair.

    She also got her 1 extra power back!

    Also release Negasonic is different than the datamine. She was 2 energy before, she’s actually 3.

    Easy skip for me. I think at 3 she’s just not useful outside of a Nimrod (lol) situation.

    At 2 she could help in a destroy deck, but 3-cost effects are already too stuffed there without the risk of your opponent setting it off early.

    akjak on
    Switch: SW-4133-1546-2720 (Thera)
    Twitch: akThera
    Steam: Thera
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    discriderdiscrider Registered User regular
    akjak wrote: »
    discrider wrote: »
    Eh...
    You might be able to pull one thing into Fisk?
    How does Aero interact with having a last thing played into her space?

    The same thing she always did if you played to her space... Nothing.

    Does she then pull the next last though?

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    KetarKetar Come on upstairs we're having a partyRegistered User regular
    discrider wrote: »
    akjak wrote: »
    discrider wrote: »
    Eh...
    You might be able to pull one thing into Fisk?
    How does Aero interact with having a last thing played into her space?

    The same thing she always did if you played to her space... Nothing.

    Does she then pull the next last though?

    Nope.

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    CoinageCoinage Heaviside LayerRegistered User regular
    If this game actually survives a while the Leader/Aero meta will have people saying back in my day we lost no matter what we played turn 6, and we liked it!

    Happiness is within reach!
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    discriderdiscrider Registered User regular
    edited March 2023
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    discrider wrote: »
    Eh...
    You might be able to pull one thing into Fisk?
    How does Aero interact with having a last thing played into her space?

    At least Leader can hold down a lane after Doc Ock fills left.
    Aero just loses her lane in a turn when the opponent thinks they can win 2+ lanes from behind.

    At the very least Aero will be good into Wave combos because your opponent can only play one thing while you'll play her + She-Hulk or Death.

    Worse Aero also makes worse Aero better. Basically current Aero chases out playing one big thing on 6 because you'll be Aero'd (aside from Doom, who doesn't care). If Aero is less automatically run in every deck, that means those decks that want to play one fat card can exist, which means she'll be better against that.

    Basically she'll be a tech card instead of a generically good card.

    Yeah, idk.
    If you DeathWave, either Wave is killing your opponent's turn 6 by herself, or Aero is going to be pulling Shulk.

    I guess it's still Shang-chi/Valk protection, in that deck.

    I've swapped her out for Doc Ock in my deck now.

    discrider on
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    discriderdiscrider Registered User regular
    edited March 2023
    Coinage wrote: »
    If this game actually survives a while the Leader/Aero meta will have people saying back in my day we lost no matter what we played turn 6, and we liked it!

    Doc Ock left/Leader left/Ebony Maw right still pulled that off in my electro-ramp deck from time to time.
    A bit too infrequently maybe, but it still worked.

    Heimdall is probably better there though.

    discrider on
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    Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver You don't have to attend every argument you are invited to. Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    Aero is still ridiculously good it's not longer like, fucking stupid broken good.

    Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
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    discriderdiscrider Registered User regular
    It's going to pull a whole lot of Wasps from me, I tell you what

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