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[Honkai: Star Rail] When the sun sets we will not forget the Black Swan over paradise

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    Doctor DetroitDoctor Detroit Not a doctor Tree townRegistered User regular
    As we get a couple years into this game, with the inevitable power creep, can we presume that the early 5-stars are gonna need their Eidolons to compete with the new hotness?

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    BrodyBrody The Watch The First ShoreRegistered User regular
    So if I were going to try and run Jing Yuan/Nat/March/Tingyun for an Elation Swan attempt, what light cones should I be using on them? I assume for relics I can just go to genshin.gg and use the suggested relic set with the correct main stat for each?

    "I will write your name in the ruin of them. I will paint you across history in the color of their blood."

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    AshtonDragonAshtonDragon AKA The Nix Registered User regular
    Mirkel wrote: »
    To me both games are exactly the same - for 4*s you'll usually want a bunch of constellations/eidolons to get them really going. 5*s work just fine at c0/e0.

    MHY's design skills have matured a fair bit though, Genshin had some really bad constellations for some of the early characters. Like all of Qiqi's for example.

    I completely agree with this, but I keep seeing people talk as if the specialized light cone for a 5* character is the baseline. I don't understand it. I get that they are much more obtainable than weapons were in Genshin, but they're absolutely unnecessary. I don't care how much of a damage boost Jingliu gets with hers, she's plenty strong with FTP options.

    Maybe it's a holdover from Honkai Impact 3rd? I don't play that game (and have almost zero interest in it), but I understand that having specific weapons for characters was/is a big deal in that game.

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    AuralynxAuralynx Darkness is a perspective Watching the ego workRegistered User regular
    Brody wrote: »
    So if I were going to try and run Jing Yuan/Nat/March/Tingyun for an Elation Swan attempt, what light cones should I be using on them? I assume for relics I can just go to genshin.gg and use the suggested relic set with the correct main stat for each?

    Just use the best ones you have available that make sense for the characters. There's a little calculation involving not letting teamwide buffs from sets overlap, but don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

    Looking at that team, definitely level But The Battle Isn't Over and stick it on Tingyun as part of your process. You'll want pretty much everything it does.

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    MirkelMirkel FinlandRegistered User regular
    As we get a couple years into this game, with the inevitable power creep, can we presume that the early 5-stars are gonna need their Eidolons to compete with the new hotness?

    MHY will most likely try to keep the power creep as low as they can, but there's always better and worse 5*s. Bailu is already clearly worse than Luocha but there's no substitute for Bronya. Since they usually do no buffs/nerfs afterwards except indirectly through new relic sets and new character synergies, the natural variance in power will mean that the worst 5*s will be power crept but the best ones won't be. That's my expectation anyways as an old Genshin player - last I checked Ganyu for example was still amazing there despite being an old character.

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    metaghostmetaghost An intriguing odor A delicate touchRegistered User regular
    As we get a couple years into this game, with the inevitable power creep, can we presume that the early 5-stars are gonna need their Eidolons to compete with the new hotness?

    If we assume parallels to Genshin, I feel like the better question is: which characters are/will be analogous to the regional overlord god people (Venti/Zhongli/Raiden)?

    Because they still serve as benchmarks for base power in one way or another, with Zhongli being one of the few characters buffed after release to accommodate expectations after much outcry.

    I guess Bronya is technically that for Belebog?

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    AshtonDragonAshtonDragon AKA The Nix Registered User regular
    Brody wrote: »
    So if I were going to try and run Jing Yuan/Nat/March/Tingyun for an Elation Swan attempt, what light cones should I be using on them? I assume for relics I can just go to genshin.gg and use the suggested relic set with the correct main stat for each?

    It's gonna depend on what you have, of course. Barring 5* gacha stuff, Jing Yuan wants Seriousness of Breakfast (probably the best freebie light cone you can get from the forgotten hall). Nat can use whatever your best thing is that increases outgoing healing; Cornucopia if you have none of the better 4* ones. Anything with +Defense is fine for March, although Landau's Choice is better than it appears at a glance. Making March take more hits will take a lot of the heat off other people. For Tingyun, people generally put either "Dance! Dance! Dance!" or Meshing Cogs on her. Meshing Cogs is probably the best 3* light cone in the game, genuinely excellent. Memories of the Past needs refinements to be better than it

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    MirkelMirkel FinlandRegistered User regular
    I don't think there's any Archons or Herrschers in HSR and I'm perfectly happy with that. Just try to make all 5*s good instead of making a bunch of them more equal than the rest.

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    AshtonDragonAshtonDragon AKA The Nix Registered User regular
    Mirkel wrote: »
    I don't think there's any Archons or Herrschers in HSR and I'm perfectly happy with that. Just try to make all 5*s good instead of making a bunch of them more equal than the rest.

    Everyone's just waiting for Xipe or Nanook to become playable in some form.

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    MadicanMadican No face Registered User regular
    One of the first things you'll want to do in your teambuilding is to build one very good sustain. This can be a tank or healer, anyone who can keep the team standing up with shields, heals, whatever. You don't need two slots for sustain outside super difficult content like Swarm 5 and maybe MoC 8+.

    Next is to pick your "Hypercarry" unit, the one who will be doing most of the killing, and gear them to the teeth. My suggestion is Seele with that Hunt LC from Herta store because even though she was the first 5 Star banner unit she's still just as strong as she's always been. The Hypercarry's goal is to knock down all the enemies before the enemy can get through whatever your sustain unit is doing. This is why tanks work as solo sustain in this game because while they can't (usually) heal you they can keep you alive long enough to finish the fight.

    The other two slots can either be two support units or a sub DPS and a support. Never leave a support unit out of team composition. Tingyun with Bronya's LC is a good pick but like others have said don't sleep on the 3 Star Harmony LC. And yeah you need to level those LC's because they're a huge chunk of stats. The good news is that even if you level things like the 3 Star Harmony LC to 80 it's not a waste because it's so good it can be given to basically any Harmony unit. You'll never regret investing those resources, which is important when it comes to picking LC's.

    Lastly, consider watching some Youtube videos for a unit you want to build. I'd recommend GrimroGacha since he's the trusted throrycrafter for all the meta sources and he doesn't hype up units to unrealistic levels. Plus he regularly showcases F2P team comps that can clear the hardest content and explains why they work and what substitutions can be made. Very good stuff.
    Mirkel wrote: »
    To me both games are exactly the same - for 4*s you'll usually want a bunch of constellations/eidolons to get them really going. 5*s work just fine at c0/e0.

    MHY's design skills have matured a fair bit though, Genshin had some really bad constellations for some of the early characters. Like all of Qiqi's for example.

    I completely agree with this, but I keep seeing people talk as if the specialized light cone for a 5* character is the baseline. I don't understand it. I get that they are much more obtainable than weapons were in Genshin, but they're absolutely unnecessary. I don't care how much of a damage boost Jingliu gets with hers, she's plenty strong with FTP options.

    Maybe it's a holdover from Honkai Impact 3rd? I don't play that game (and have almost zero interest in it), but I understand that having specific weapons for characters was/is a big deal in that game.

    For most units the signature LC is not needed, but Mihoyo absolutely fucked up on Erudition Path and by direct association Jing Yuan. None of the F2P Erudition LC options are particularly good, there's no Herta shop option to make up for it, and the "premium" shop only has the Himeko LC which also isn't very good for anyone besides Himeko. This is what's led to all the Mid Yuan memes because he "needs" his signature to compete and Argenti is probably going to face the same issue.

    That said, he's still plenty usable with S5 Breakfast (it does need to be S5) it just takes a bit for him to ramp up with it.

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    ArtereisArtereis Registered User regular
    We'll see if we get versions of characters that are explicitly emanators of their Aeons and how that compares to Archons.

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    SaldonasSaldonas See you space cowboy...Registered User regular
    Oooh, yeah. Emanators probably would be about as close as we'll get to archons.

    Twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/carthuun
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    Doctor DetroitDoctor Detroit Not a doctor Tree townRegistered User regular
    I still say we already have one Aeon in the game.

    Because (Pokemon event spoilers):
    it seems to me like if Sampo is one of the Masked Fools, he should have a mask. Unless "Sampo" is the mask...

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    MadicanMadican No face Registered User regular
    We already have Emanators as characters.

    Jing Yuan is an Emanator of The Hunt as one of the seven Generals of the Xianzhou and Herta is an Emanator of the Erudition like every Genius Society Member.

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    ReynoldsReynolds Gone Fishin'Registered User regular
    As we get a couple years into this game, with the inevitable power creep, can we presume that the early 5-stars are gonna need their Eidolons to compete with the new hotness?

    Every limited character has already been better than every standard character, with the exception of Bronya. The power creep started on day one.

    Also @Brody you might want to use https://www.prydwen.gg/star-rail/ instead.

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    ShadowfireShadowfire Vermont, in the middle of nowhereRegistered User regular
    Reynolds wrote: »
    As we get a couple years into this game, with the inevitable power creep, can we presume that the early 5-stars are gonna need their Eidolons to compete with the new hotness?

    Every limited character has already been better than every standard character, with the exception of Bronya. The power creep started on day one.

    Also @Brody you might want to use https://www.prydwen.gg/star-rail/ instead.

    Eh, it's arguable that Clara is better than JY by a significant margin.

    WiiU: Windrunner ; Guild Wars 2: Shadowfire.3940 ; PSN: Bradcopter
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    ReynoldsReynolds Gone Fishin'Registered User regular
    I don't think those two are comparable at all. Clara's also steadily fallen down the tier list, not by being outclassed in her niche, but by people realizing there's no need to fill that niche if the rest of your team is just better at everything in general.

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    MaddocMaddoc I'm Bobbin Threadbare, are you my mother? Registered User regular
    edited October 2023
    If anything Clara's tier list placement has increased as of late so I dunno what you're talking about

    EDIT: Anyway, Daniel and Jingliu are pretty significant outliers, but it looks like at least 1.5 is going to be a lot more measured

    Maddoc on
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    AuralynxAuralynx Darkness is a perspective Watching the ego workRegistered User regular
    Shadowfire wrote: »
    Reynolds wrote: »
    As we get a couple years into this game, with the inevitable power creep, can we presume that the early 5-stars are gonna need their Eidolons to compete with the new hotness?

    Every limited character has already been better than every standard character, with the exception of Bronya. The power creep started on day one.

    Also @Brody you might want to use https://www.prydwen.gg/star-rail/ instead.

    Eh, it's arguable that Clara is better than JY by a significant margin.

    *Points silently at Gepard.*

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    The WolfmanThe Wolfman Registered User regular
    Maddoc wrote: »
    If anything Clara's tier list placement has increased as of late so I dunno what you're talking about

    EDIT: Anyway, Daniel and Jingliu are pretty significant outliers, but it looks like at least 1.5 is going to be a lot more measured

    Yeah, Clara just got her BFF in the form of Lynx, who is literally a 2-in-1 character for her (aggro increase ala March, healer ala Natasha). Topaz is coming who boosts follow up damage. There's even a follow up relic set coming, but sadly it won't be until at least next patch. So there's kind of no point building either Clara or Topaz at the moment.

    I'm really excited for what's coming up!

    "The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
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    MaddocMaddoc I'm Bobbin Threadbare, are you my mother? Registered User regular
    edited October 2023
    the follow up relic set actually won't be good for Clara, sadly

    but regardless, even before Topaz, Clara is great right now and one of the top damage dealers for encounters with multiple enemies attacking

    EDIT: Also, if we're being honest, the aggro boost from Lynx is extremely small, we're talking roughly a 10% higher chance for Clara to get attacked. Clara moved up the ratings just because of how well she suits the current MoC and because of people realizing how well she is scaling into end game content still.

    Maddoc on
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    ReynoldsReynolds Gone Fishin'Registered User regular
    Clara started at S, was A around Dan's release, and is now B. They had to give her a special asterisk to specify she's great if everything goes perfectly and average otherwise. Where you can just hit a button with everyone else and be S tier.

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    MaddocMaddoc I'm Bobbin Threadbare, are you my mother? Registered User regular
    edited October 2023
    You are looking at single target fights, they broke up the tier list into three categories for blast and aoe situations

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    Maddoc on
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    ReynoldsReynolds Gone Fishin'Registered User regular
    And a multi-target fight becomes a single target fight pretty fast. She gets actively worse as the fight goes on, again, outside of the one specific scenario she's useful in.

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    MaddocMaddoc I'm Bobbin Threadbare, are you my mother? Registered User regular
    Anyway people using tier lists like they're objective fact is always super, super dumb

    Clara is fantastic and can clear all of the content in the game including Swarm 5 with no difficulty as primary DPS

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    ReynoldsReynolds Gone Fishin'Registered User regular
    You can also clear Swarm V using MC's bat mode if you whaled and/or got lucky with gear. I've seen main DPS Arlan, Herta, Himeko, etc. It doesn't mean the average person should try that.

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    MaddocMaddoc I'm Bobbin Threadbare, are you my mother? Registered User regular
    I'm not even sure what the argument is anymore and I'm not sure why I got tricked into bothering trying to talk to a wall again honestly.

    Let this be a lesson to everyone else I guess.

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    AshtonDragonAshtonDragon AKA The Nix Registered User regular
    It's kind of a moot point anyway. I'm definitely in team "Clara is extremely good, probably better than Jing Yuan", but even if she wasn't, it's not like limited 5* characters being better than other characters is a surprising concept.

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    The WolfmanThe Wolfman Registered User regular
    "You can't do anything in this game unless you whale, so why bother doing anything at all" is... certainly a viewpoint.

    "The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
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    MaddocMaddoc I'm Bobbin Threadbare, are you my mother? Registered User regular
    I still think, overall, Clara is probably one of the single best characters in the game.

    I don't get the 150k nukes out of her like I do Daniel, but I would say she is the "safest" DPS in the game by far.

    In a party with Clara, a Preservation, and two aggro neutral classes like Harmony/Nihility/Abundance, she has a 68% chance of being attacked with her ult up

    In a party with Clara, and three aggro neutral classes that bumps up slightly to 71%

    Lynx or March 7th increase that to 80%/82% respectively, which is why I mentioned Lynx being kind of unnecessary for her although if you don't have Fu or Luocha that is certainly the next best bet

    To elaborate, also, on why the follow up relic set coming in 1.5 will not be good for Clara.

    2pc is currently +16% damage to follow up attacks, 4pc is an effect that increases damage based on the number of hits the follow up attack does

    Clara's follow up attack, which does 1 hit, gets literally no benefit from the 4pc effect, and it's questionable whether the 2pc effect is more valuable than the 4pc effect of the Physical set (+25% Atk with some slight ramp up)

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    MadicanMadican No face Registered User regular
    It's honestly kind of funny to see how much Jing Yuan gets memed on when every single time I look at Prydwen's MoC10 top ranking teams he is always in a Top 10 slot for fastest clears. He moves around a whole lot but he's there every single cycle.

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    MaddocMaddoc I'm Bobbin Threadbare, are you my mother? Registered User regular
    Oh yeah, JY gets clowned on a lot but he's pretty solid

    CN likes him a lot more than global players

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    The WolfmanThe Wolfman Registered User regular
    edited October 2023
    Maddoc wrote: »
    I still think, overall, Clara is probably one of the single best characters in the game.

    I don't get the 150k nukes out of her like I do Daniel, but I would say she is the "safest" DPS in the game by far.

    In a party with Clara, a Preservation, and two aggro neutral classes like Harmony/Nihility/Abundance, she has a 68% chance of being attacked with her ult up

    In a party with Clara, and three aggro neutral classes that bumps up slightly to 71%

    Lynx or March 7th increase that to 80%/82% respectively, which is why I mentioned Lynx being kind of unnecessary for her although if you don't have Fu or Luocha that is certainly the next best bet

    To elaborate, also, on why the follow up relic set coming in 1.5 will not be good for Clara.

    2pc is currently +16% damage to follow up attacks, 4pc is an effect that increases damage based on the number of hits the follow up attack does

    Clara's follow up attack, which does 1 hit, gets literally no benefit from the 4pc effect, and it's questionable whether the 2pc effect is more valuable than the 4pc effect of the Physical set (+25% Atk with some slight ramp up)

    Are you sure the buff depends on how many hits the follow up does during its attack? And I assume that would also mean it's not like a stacking buff on a character that lasts 2 turns or something?

    Because then it just doesn't make sense at all. I'm assuming this is designed specifically for Topaz's kit. Unless her attacks do 8 individual hits (in the same way most bounce skills from Nihility characters do 5 individual hits), then it's simply mechanically impossible to ever reach 8 stacks of this buff. It logically has to be just a stacking buff that goes up every time you do a follow up. In Topaz's case, that's every time Numby attacks, and also both her basic and skill count as a follow up. I can't imagine she can pull off 8 hits in a single turn, so it logically has to be a 2 turn buff. Again, how the hell are you possibly expected to get 8 stacks of this?

    And assuming that's how it actually works, then yeah Clara is getting hit possibly 1 to 3 times in between her turns, even on a single enemy. She'll max out at 8 in no time.

    Clearly we'll have to wait and see how it actually works. I just keep going back to the obvious: If it stacks to 8, then there must be a reasonable way to hit 8.

    edit: Actually let me amend this. It's possible it's a 1 turn buff that just restacks every time you do a follow up. With Topaz that's every attack so it's a permanent buff. If it otherwise vanishes on your turn if you don't do a follow up, then I guess Clara would lose all her stacks on her turn. And if she can only at most get 1 to 3 stacks, then it's probably not that good for her.

    The Wolfman on
    "The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
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    AshtonDragonAshtonDragon AKA The Nix Registered User regular
    Madican wrote: »
    It's honestly kind of funny to see how much Jing Yuan gets memed on when every single time I look at Prydwen's MoC10 top ranking teams he is always in a Top 10 slot for fastest clears. He moves around a whole lot but he's there every single cycle.
    Curious if that's just DPS characters, not that fastest clears would use sustains. It's not like I think he's bad, though. I mean, sometimes I think Clara might be better than Kafka. The only other non-limited 5* DPS character who I might put above Jing Yuan is E6 Qingque.

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    ReynoldsReynolds Gone Fishin'Registered User regular
    The top 10 is all the buffers, Luocha, Dan, and then Jing at the bottom. Right above Hook, which is there just because of all the fire weak things in preparation for Topaz.

    I think the 'all time' one is exactly the same but with Seele instead of Hook.

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    MaddocMaddoc I'm Bobbin Threadbare, are you my mother? Registered User regular
    Maddoc wrote: »
    I still think, overall, Clara is probably one of the single best characters in the game.

    I don't get the 150k nukes out of her like I do Daniel, but I would say she is the "safest" DPS in the game by far.

    In a party with Clara, a Preservation, and two aggro neutral classes like Harmony/Nihility/Abundance, she has a 68% chance of being attacked with her ult up

    In a party with Clara, and three aggro neutral classes that bumps up slightly to 71%

    Lynx or March 7th increase that to 80%/82% respectively, which is why I mentioned Lynx being kind of unnecessary for her although if you don't have Fu or Luocha that is certainly the next best bet

    To elaborate, also, on why the follow up relic set coming in 1.5 will not be good for Clara.

    2pc is currently +16% damage to follow up attacks, 4pc is an effect that increases damage based on the number of hits the follow up attack does

    Clara's follow up attack, which does 1 hit, gets literally no benefit from the 4pc effect, and it's questionable whether the 2pc effect is more valuable than the 4pc effect of the Physical set (+25% Atk with some slight ramp up)

    Are you sure the buff depends on how many hits the follow up does during its attack? And I assume that would also mean it's not like a stacking buff on a character that lasts 2 turns or something?

    Because then it just doesn't make sense at all. I'm assuming this is designed specifically for Topaz's kit. Unless her attacks do 8 individual hits (in the same way most bounce skills from Nihility characters do 5 individual hits), then it's simply mechanically impossible to ever reach 8 stacks of this buff. It logically has to be just a stacking buff that goes up every time you do a follow up. In Topaz's case, that's every time Numby attacks, and also both her basic and skill count as a follow up. I can't imagine she can pull off 8 hits in a single turn, so it logically has to be a 2 turn buff. Again, how the hell are you possibly expected to get 8 stacks of this?

    And assuming that's how it actually works, then yeah Clara is getting hit possibly 1 to 3 times in between her turns, even on a single enemy. She'll max out at 8 in no time.

    Clearly we'll have to wait and see how it actually works. I just keep going back to the obvious: If it stacks to 8, then there must be a reasonable way to hit 8.

    edit: Actually let me amend this. It's possible it's a 1 turn buff that just restacks every time you do a follow up. With Topaz that's every attack so it's a permanent buff. If it otherwise vanishes on your turn if you don't do a follow up, then I guess Clara would lose all her stacks on her turn. And if she can only at most get 1 to 3 stacks, then it's probably not that good for her.

    Numby does 7 hits normally, 8 hits while enhanced

    Jing Yuan also does up to 10 hits

    And no we already know it works just like Daniel's passive, this isn't a guesswork thing

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    The WolfmanThe Wolfman Registered User regular
    Maddoc wrote: »
    Maddoc wrote: »
    I still think, overall, Clara is probably one of the single best characters in the game.

    I don't get the 150k nukes out of her like I do Daniel, but I would say she is the "safest" DPS in the game by far.

    In a party with Clara, a Preservation, and two aggro neutral classes like Harmony/Nihility/Abundance, she has a 68% chance of being attacked with her ult up

    In a party with Clara, and three aggro neutral classes that bumps up slightly to 71%

    Lynx or March 7th increase that to 80%/82% respectively, which is why I mentioned Lynx being kind of unnecessary for her although if you don't have Fu or Luocha that is certainly the next best bet

    To elaborate, also, on why the follow up relic set coming in 1.5 will not be good for Clara.

    2pc is currently +16% damage to follow up attacks, 4pc is an effect that increases damage based on the number of hits the follow up attack does

    Clara's follow up attack, which does 1 hit, gets literally no benefit from the 4pc effect, and it's questionable whether the 2pc effect is more valuable than the 4pc effect of the Physical set (+25% Atk with some slight ramp up)

    Are you sure the buff depends on how many hits the follow up does during its attack? And I assume that would also mean it's not like a stacking buff on a character that lasts 2 turns or something?

    Because then it just doesn't make sense at all. I'm assuming this is designed specifically for Topaz's kit. Unless her attacks do 8 individual hits (in the same way most bounce skills from Nihility characters do 5 individual hits), then it's simply mechanically impossible to ever reach 8 stacks of this buff. It logically has to be just a stacking buff that goes up every time you do a follow up. In Topaz's case, that's every time Numby attacks, and also both her basic and skill count as a follow up. I can't imagine she can pull off 8 hits in a single turn, so it logically has to be a 2 turn buff. Again, how the hell are you possibly expected to get 8 stacks of this?

    And assuming that's how it actually works, then yeah Clara is getting hit possibly 1 to 3 times in between her turns, even on a single enemy. She'll max out at 8 in no time.

    Clearly we'll have to wait and see how it actually works. I just keep going back to the obvious: If it stacks to 8, then there must be a reasonable way to hit 8.

    edit: Actually let me amend this. It's possible it's a 1 turn buff that just restacks every time you do a follow up. With Topaz that's every attack so it's a permanent buff. If it otherwise vanishes on your turn if you don't do a follow up, then I guess Clara would lose all her stacks on her turn. And if she can only at most get 1 to 3 stacks, then it's probably not that good for her.

    Numby does 7 hits normally, 8 hits while enhanced

    Jing Yuan also does up to 10 hits

    And no we already know it works just like Daniel's passive, this isn't a guesswork thing

    Ah ok, Numby doing 7/8 hits makes it make sense. Lord knows they could word it better...

    "The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
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    MaddocMaddoc I'm Bobbin Threadbare, are you my mother? Registered User regular
    The Elation blessing in SU that increases damage each time the follow up attack hits also works the same way, fwiw

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    The WolfmanThe Wolfman Registered User regular
    Maddoc wrote: »
    The Elation blessing in SU that increases damage each time the follow up attack hits also works the same way, fwiw

    That's double weird because out of all the characters at launch that have attacks that are programmed as a "follow up", the only one I can think of that could possibly reasonably take advantage of such a mechanic is Yanqing. His bonus attack he can get counts as one and does multiple hits. Oh, and Himeko too I guess.

    "The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
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    MaddocMaddoc I'm Bobbin Threadbare, are you my mother? Registered User regular
    Herta can hit multiple times if there are multiple enemies that drop below 50% at the same time

    Also, granted, by the time the game actually released, they had delayed it for so long that there are like literally a couple dozen known leaked characters in various states of design

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