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[Honkai: Star Rail] When the sun sets we will not forget the Black Swan over paradise

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    DonnictonDonnicton Registered User regular
    I've barely made it into Space China and I've spent days doing sidequests just for the first two zones.

    Hook's sidequests are adorable, for starters.

    I appreciate that the writing leans into the fact that galactic civilization is on average in such a hyper-advanced state it's just taken for granted that things like interstellar communication are just things that happen, to the point where I'm sent on a sidequest to investigate an unknown signal and it's just a space salesman whose job it is to transmit ads to the planet you're on because it's one of his assigned worlds.

    I also just randomly found out the Rating Pistol curio on the station gives a rating based on the active character that talks to it. I also happened to discover there's an achievement for having it rate Jingliu.

    Also, presented without context.

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    I really need to start pushing the main story though, there's a lot of the travel log I'm still barred from doing.

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    AshtonDragonAshtonDragon AKA The Nix Registered User regular
    Madican wrote: »
    I said focusing on DPS for a Support is missing the entire point of a Support because they are there to support everyone else on the team. Their individual damage doesn't matter in comparison to how much damage they enable the hypercarry to do.

    I think lumping in Topaz with the supports is a mistake from the outset. Is she as good as a dedicated support as Silver Wolf? No, probably not. But she does way more damage to the point that her individual damage does matter, such that it's worth it to get as much of it as you can. I would even go as far as to say that her damage output affects team composition. Like, when I'm thinking of what support to add to a Topaz/Clara team, I'm thinking "Who can improve both of their damage?", and am more likely to consider a debuffer or Asta, rather than Tingyun.

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    MaddocMaddoc I'm Bobbin Threadbare, are you my mother? Registered User regular
    edited October 2023
    Madican wrote: »
    I mean, even if you have perfect uptime on Cruising or Swordplay it's not going to make much of a difference since Topaz is not a DPS. She's like Silver Wolf, she can contribute some damage but she's not going to be the hypercarry without significant investment in Eidolons. And if someone goes that route they'd get her signature LC.

    This is 100% wrong btw

    Topaz is the most DPS any sub DPS has been, and the only thing you have to worry about on her is her personal DPS, which is significant

    Just because she likely isn't going to be your sole DPS doesn't mean she won't contribute significant damage on her own

    Coincidentally, she is also on the same banner as Guinaifain, who is another support who should be built with her own damage in mind

    EDIT: That said, don't sleep on ERR% rope for Topaz, more Bonanza time means more and stronger Numby attacks, even on a team with other follow up attacks

    Maddoc on
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    ShadowfireShadowfire Vermont, in the middle of nowhereRegistered User regular
    Madican wrote: »
    I said focusing on DPS for a Support is missing the entire point of a Support because they are there to support everyone else on the team. Their individual damage doesn't matter in comparison to how much damage they enable the hypercarry to do.

    I think lumping in Topaz with the supports is a mistake from the outset. Is she as good as a dedicated support as Silver Wolf? No, probably not. But she does way more damage to the point that her individual damage does matter, such that it's worth it to get as much of it as you can. I would even go as far as to say that her damage output affects team composition. Like, when I'm thinking of what support to add to a Topaz/Clara team, I'm thinking "Who can improve both of their damage?", and am more likely to consider a debuffer or Asta, rather than Tingyun.

    If you want to futz with speed tuning, maybe Yukong as well. But that's a bit too fiddly for me.

    WiiU: Windrunner ; Guild Wars 2: Shadowfire.3940 ; PSN: Bradcopter
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    BrodyBrody The Watch The First ShoreRegistered User regular
    Well, I was going to try and pull Numby, and managed to get Numby, Luka, and Sushang E1 on my first pull. Is it worth taking a swing at the character specific light cones if I’m F2P? I feel like I’m struggling with Genshin trauma, feeling like I instead need to pull for Eidolons. I think otherwise I’m planning on saving for Luocha or Kafka.

    "I will write your name in the ruin of them. I will paint you across history in the color of their blood."

    The Monster Baru Cormorant - Seth Dickinson

    Steam: Korvalain
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    MaddocMaddoc I'm Bobbin Threadbare, are you my mother? Registered User regular
    I wouldn't pull for eidolons, I'm generally pretty pro LC, and LC banners in Star Rail are also much better than Genshin weapon banners.

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    MadicanMadican No face Registered User regular
    Maddoc wrote: »
    Madican wrote: »
    I mean, even if you have perfect uptime on Cruising or Swordplay it's not going to make much of a difference since Topaz is not a DPS. She's like Silver Wolf, she can contribute some damage but she's not going to be the hypercarry without significant investment in Eidolons. And if someone goes that route they'd get her signature LC.

    This is 100% wrong btw

    Topaz is the most DPS any sub DPS has been, and the only thing you have to worry about on her is her personal DPS, which is significant

    Just because she likely isn't going to be your sole DPS doesn't mean she won't contribute significant damage on her own

    Coincidentally, she is also on the same banner as Guinaifain, who is another support who should be built with her own damage in mind

    EDIT: That said, don't sleep on ERR% rope for Topaz, more Bonanza time means more and stronger Numby attacks, even on a team with other follow up attacks

    Except what I meant with that post has nothing to do with whatever Topaz's actual damage is, but rather that the difference between Cruising and Swordplay is so small that it doesn't matter because she's not the hypercarry. As in the difference between the two, going by Grimro's calculations, is 1% or less. Even her signature LC isn't much of an improvement on those two.

    Since nobody is reading the calculations
    S1 Worrisome Blissful: 428,822
    S5 Cruising: 408,070
    S5 Swordplay: 405,275

    The difference in these numbers are not significant enough to be overly concerned about whether to pick Cruising or Swordplay. I also personally wouldn't go for her signature as a F2P because it's not enough of an improvement for the cost in jades.

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    MaddocMaddoc I'm Bobbin Threadbare, are you my mother? Registered User regular
    Killing me that I dont have a half decent crit dmg chest right now for her placeholder gear until 1.5

    With a crit rate chest I end up with literally over 100% crit even before Fu

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    AshtonDragonAshtonDragon AKA The Nix Registered User regular
    Madican wrote: »
    Maddoc wrote: »
    Madican wrote: »
    I mean, even if you have perfect uptime on Cruising or Swordplay it's not going to make much of a difference since Topaz is not a DPS. She's like Silver Wolf, she can contribute some damage but she's not going to be the hypercarry without significant investment in Eidolons. And if someone goes that route they'd get her signature LC.

    This is 100% wrong btw

    Topaz is the most DPS any sub DPS has been, and the only thing you have to worry about on her is her personal DPS, which is significant

    Just because she likely isn't going to be your sole DPS doesn't mean she won't contribute significant damage on her own

    Coincidentally, she is also on the same banner as Guinaifain, who is another support who should be built with her own damage in mind

    EDIT: That said, don't sleep on ERR% rope for Topaz, more Bonanza time means more and stronger Numby attacks, even on a team with other follow up attacks

    Except what I meant with that post has nothing to do with whatever Topaz's actual damage is, but rather that the difference between Cruising and Swordplay is so small that it doesn't matter because she's not the hypercarry. As in the difference between the two, going by Grimro's calculations, is 1% or less. Even her signature LC isn't much of an improvement on those two.

    Since nobody is reading the calculations
    S1 Worrisome Blissful: 428,822
    S5 Cruising: 408,070
    S5 Swordplay: 405,275

    The difference in these numbers are not significant enough to be overly concerned about whether to pick Cruising or Swordplay. I also personally wouldn't go for her signature as a F2P because it's not enough of an improvement for the cost in jades.

    Whether or not she is a hypercarry or not is kind of a weird tangent; all that matters is your point that they are very close, which is true. If people already have an S5 Cruising kicking around, they should use that. If you have a high superimposition Swordplay and want to save on some hertabux, use that instead. If you really want to be optimal, I honestly think Swordplay is a little better on average, because these numbers are assuming full uptime on the attack boost from Cruising. But considering Swordplay technically won't always be at full stacks either (for the first attack numby does on each target), they're so close.

    On the note of the signature, he's also not factoring in the fact that it boosts the crit damage of the whole team, not just herself. Which... I mean, how could he possibly calculate that, but it's an important factor. It's better than these numbers imply.

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    MadicanMadican No face Registered User regular
    If you want to see Grimro evaluating Topaz based on her entire team then he does do that in his videos. The simulations are just for theorycrafting, he puts it all into practice and experimentation in-game while explaining how and why certain comps work better. This is why I keep referring to his work and not Prydwen.

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    ShadowfireShadowfire Vermont, in the middle of nowhereRegistered User regular
    I don't know who that it. YouTuber?

    I honestly hate YouTube for those sorts of things which is why I love KQM so much. Give me the crunchy document full of data!

    WiiU: Windrunner ; Guild Wars 2: Shadowfire.3940 ; PSN: Bradcopter
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    AshtonDragonAshtonDragon AKA The Nix Registered User regular
    Shadowfire wrote: »
    I don't know who that it. YouTuber?

    I honestly hate YouTube for those sorts of things which is why I love KQM so much. Give me the crunchy document full of data!

    In my experience so far in Star Rail, the guide videos that many youtubers make are pretty effective at explaining characters and how you should build them. But you also can't just take everything they say at face value and actually understand what they're saying. For example, with Jingliu, they all explained how Jingliu's party HP drain worked, and then gave the average number of max HP the rest of your party needs to have for her to get maximum value. But failed to explain how this number is different if you're not using her signature light cone. There's also stuff like people recommending Bronya and assuming that people have her signature light cone and/or her E1 to function in some teams.

    I usually wind up watching multiple different videos before making my own decisions. Grimro is definitely one of the better ones, though. Shoutouts to Sevy for including sections for how each character perform in auto battle (Topaz's AI is kinda dumb, it turns out).

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    SeGaTaiSeGaTai Registered User regular
    Only reason I'm aware of prydwen recommendations is the website is well laid out with minimum ads or other distractions and I don't need to watch any YouTube videos

    PSN SeGaTai
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    MadicanMadican No face Registered User regular
    Shadowfire wrote: »
    I don't know who that it. YouTuber?

    I honestly hate YouTube for those sorts of things which is why I love KQM so much. Give me the crunchy document full of data!

    Grimro does Youtube videos and links his spreadsheets where he does all the calculations at the bottom of the videos now. They are very crunchy.

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    MaddocMaddoc I'm Bobbin Threadbare, are you my mother? Registered User regular
    I'd kind of be interested in seeing a Herta LC without the second effect compared to S1-5 Swordplay, honestly.

    I suspect Swordplay comes out ahead in a lot of those matchups.

    That said, there are some other considerations like that 16% crit rate can help you hit your 50%+ easier, especially if you don't have Fu, that you need for Salsotto while still using a Crit DMG Chest

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    KamarKamar Registered User regular
    Got caught up on HSR, still not as into the story as I am HI3 or even Genshin Impact, but it's still early days and there's a lot of room for things to get really nuts in this setting (and those two started slower, if anything).

    Wonder when/if they'll give Tamura Yukari a role in HSR, either as a Theresa variant or an expy or someone new. Though she's been a lot less active for a while, so maybe she won't? I can't tell if the new character in HI3 has new voice lines or is just reusing old ones for other variants. Fun design and gameplay regardless, fancy dress and fancy ornate...chainsaw greatsword?

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    MadicanMadican No face Registered User regular
    So where's everyone's favorite places to stand or run around when you're not really doing anything in particular in the game. I like idling around Belobog while I'm doing something else.

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    No real reason why.

    Honest.
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    Ding-ding

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    DonnictonDonnicton Registered User regular
    So are there other ways for Abundance chars to get debuff removal? I got Bailu and she looks like a good little heal nugget, but I'm so spoiled on Natasha just casually removing debuffs at this point and I don't see that Bailu has any ways to do it herself.

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    AshtonDragonAshtonDragon AKA The Nix Registered User regular
    Donnicton wrote: »
    So are there other ways for Abundance chars to get debuff removal? I got Bailu and she looks like a good little heal nugget, but I'm so spoiled on Natasha just casually removing debuffs at this point and I don't see that Bailu has any ways to do it herself.

    Barring some simulated universe stuff, you're out of luck. Having no way to deal with debuffs is indeed a big problem for Bailu. She's still certainly better than Nat overall, but if you're facing something that has some problematic debuffs, then taking Nat instead might be a good idea.

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    MadicanMadican No face Registered User regular
    edited October 2023
    Donnicton wrote: »
    So are there other ways for Abundance chars to get debuff removal? I got Bailu and she looks like a good little heal nugget, but I'm so spoiled on Natasha just casually removing debuffs at this point and I don't see that Bailu has any ways to do it herself.

    A heads up that with rerun banners starting this patch, one of the sooner reruns will be Luocha who is a 5 Star Abundance unit you may be interested in. He is basically the swiss army knife of healers in that he can cleanse debuffs, he can automatically heal when someone falls below a certain percentage (on a short cooldown), he can passively heal every time anyone attacks while his field is up, and a whole lot of other very useful tricks.

    There's a couple other units coming before him though, namely Jing Yuan and Silver Wolf, not to mention there is also a new 5 Star Abundance unit coming out in the next patch.

    Madican on
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    initiatefailureinitiatefailure Registered User regular
    edited October 2023
    I wonder if Reruns will be one per path or on every banner from now on? I guess it’s too soon to know a pattern but we will definitely not run out of things to gamble on I know

    initiatefailure on
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    ShadowfireShadowfire Vermont, in the middle of nowhereRegistered User regular
    Donnicton wrote: »
    So are there other ways for Abundance chars to get debuff removal? I got Bailu and she looks like a good little heal nugget, but I'm so spoiled on Natasha just casually removing debuffs at this point and I don't see that Bailu has any ways to do it herself.

    Barring some simulated universe stuff, you're out of luck. Having no way to deal with debuffs is indeed a big problem for Bailu. She's still certainly better than Nat overall, but if you're facing something that has some problematic debuffs, then taking Nat instead might be a good idea.

    Lynx, Bronya (if you have her), and March all cleanse as well, and March's shields are pretty thick.

    WiiU: Windrunner ; Guild Wars 2: Shadowfire.3940 ; PSN: Bradcopter
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    Doctor DetroitDoctor Detroit Not a doctor Tree townRegistered User regular
    This assumes that they will re-run in the same order as the initial release. Genshin abandoned that pattern pretty quick, I thought.

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    metaghostmetaghost An intriguing odor A delicate touchRegistered User regular
    I figure the main goal at the moment is to re-run for us PS5 players, whatever the sequence. I gotta start saving diligently for the return of Imbibator Lunae.

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    MadicanMadican No face Registered User regular
    This assumes that they will re-run in the same order as the initial release. Genshin abandoned that pattern pretty quick, I thought.

    I would not be looking to Genshin for banner patterns HSR is following considering how it's been busy breaking from Genshin. Light cone banner alone is such a massive difference from how Genshin does their weapon banners.

    There's also the PS5 release that indicates they'll be following in order, considering if they were going to run them out of order they could have picked Silver Wolf or Luocha as big name targets.

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    DonnictonDonnicton Registered User regular
    edited October 2023
    Gaslighting a wildlife fringe group into releasing robots into the wild has got to be one of the more bizarre quests I've done in a game in a while.

    Donnicton on
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    MadicanMadican No face Registered User regular
    Grimro finished his testing of Topaz teams with basically every possible team combination for Harmony and DPS units in existence. And yeah the "best" team is from completely out of left field.

    https://youtu.be/1W-QiCZSvUc

    If you don't want to watch the video, though I do recommend it since there's lots of other good teams and tips for various units (like Tingyun and her ultimate), the fastest clear was Topaz, Kafka, and Bronya plus a sustain.

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    SaldonasSaldonas See you space cowboy...Registered User regular
    edited October 2023
    Got some new character previews!
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    4sl1pjcdn6dd.jpg
    clktmqz8y108.jpg

    Saldonas on
    Twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/carthuun
    Switch: SW-1493-0062-4053
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    MadicanMadican No face Registered User regular
    Dr. L+Ratio

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    ReynoldsReynolds Gone Fishin'Registered User regular
    Although that video is informative, it winds up being yet another that just devolves into pointing out how good Bronya is. It's difficult to find any strategy videos or discussion that doesn't eventually wind up with that conclusion, though. Getting an extra turn is just too good, so I have to wonder what any new Harmony character could offer that would make people stop using her.

    Although it's more likely a new busted powercreep buffer just becomes the one you use on the second team without Bronya.

    Maybe we'll just flat out see enemies or stages that make the extra turn not trigger. That was how Artery Gear attempted to solve the problem they created with a similar launch character. I'm pretty sure PAD and FGO both did something similar as well, but it's been a while.

    uyvfOQy.png
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    AstharielAsthariel The Book Eater Registered User regular
    How important are Eidolons for Guinaifen? I somehow managed to get her to E1 despite only using 11 passes, so I wonder if she already is worthy of building her up, even if I already have fully leveled up Sampo as a companion for Kafka.

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    AuralynxAuralynx Darkness is a perspective Watching the ego workRegistered User regular
    Well, after 80 pulls and an E1 Bailu, it's clear that Hoyo doesn't agree with my plan to get Topaz then chase Kafka once she's back.

    Which I thought, before Madican's video, was so I'd have two good teams, but apparently would've resulted in one more or less nutty one given the chance! Kind of a double letdown.

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    AshtonDragonAshtonDragon AKA The Nix Registered User regular
    Madican wrote: »
    Grimro finished his testing of Topaz teams with basically every possible team combination for Harmony and DPS units in existence. And yeah the "best" team is from completely out of left field.

    https://youtu.be/1W-QiCZSvUc

    If you don't want to watch the video, though I do recommend it since there's lots of other good teams and tips for various units (like Tingyun and her ultimate), the fastest clear was Topaz, Kafka, and Bronya plus a sustain.

    I really like this video, but I do worry about everyone taking the results at face value without actually listening to everything he says. Not only is this another case of Bronya E1+signature (which I know is attainable, but it bugs me how people seem to assume that everyone has these things), he also talks at length about the situation with Clara. Her performance will vary wildly depending on what you're fighting, possibly more than any other unit in the game, so you can't just just look at one floor that is particularly unsuited for her and see that as gospel. It is an important issue for her though that people using her need to be aware of! She also doesn't have her signature LC (or Blade's, which I think might be her best?), although to be fair, Kafka doesn't either (Jing Yuan does. Himeko is using his as well, but that kinda balances out that she's underinvested). He also didn't consider giving Planetary Rendezvous to Asta for the Topaz/Himeko team, which I understand in the interest in keeping everything the same, but it does make that team a good amount better.

    My general takeaways from this video
    - Topaz damage is more than good enough to work as a solo DPS, but the single-target nature of a Hunt character who isn't Seele is definitely an issue.
    - Clara's potential in the team is high, but she suffers substantially against encounters that are not suited to her, like the monkey on side 1 of this test.
    - The Himeko team is competitive, but really wants to fight things that are weak to fire (obviously).
    - Kafka is real and can hurt you.

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    The WolfmanThe Wolfman Registered User regular
    I took a team of Clara/Lynx/Jing Yuan/Topaz into SU6 for farming. Elation path, obviously.

    Topaz is as stupid on that path as you can expect. I always like trying to get the "get a skill point every FU" blessing and upgrade it. It took me a second to realize... oh that just means Topaz can use her skill for free.

    I don't exactly know what happened on the final fight with Cocolia. All I know is it was the second phase, she summons Bronya, I think Clara takes a counter shot, and we're just instantly into the third phase and Bronya is still alive. That Svarog counter just deleted her health. It was all in double speed and I wasn't paying attention, I was just... da fuq jus happun? I was playing on PS5 and saved the video so I can go back later to check.

    "The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
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    AuralynxAuralynx Darkness is a perspective Watching the ego workRegistered User regular
    Madican wrote: »
    Grimro finished his testing of Topaz teams with basically every possible team combination for Harmony and DPS units in existence. And yeah the "best" team is from completely out of left field.

    https://youtu.be/1W-QiCZSvUc

    If you don't want to watch the video, though I do recommend it since there's lots of other good teams and tips for various units (like Tingyun and her ultimate), the fastest clear was Topaz, Kafka, and Bronya plus a sustain.

    I really like this video, but I do worry about everyone taking the results at face value without actually listening to everything he says. Not only is this another case of Bronya E1+signature (which I know is attainable, but it bugs me how people seem to assume that everyone has these things), he also talks at length about the situation with Clara. Her performance will vary wildly depending on what you're fighting, possibly more than any other unit in the game, so you can't just just look at one floor that is particularly unsuited for her and see that as gospel. It is an important issue for her though that people using her need to be aware of! She also doesn't have her signature LC (or Blade's, which I think might be her best?), although to be fair, Kafka doesn't either (Jing Yuan does. Himeko is using his as well, but that kinda balances out that she's underinvested). He also didn't consider giving Planetary Rendezvous to Asta for the Topaz/Himeko team, which I understand in the interest in keeping everything the same, but it does make that team a good amount better.

    My general takeaways from this video
    - Topaz damage is more than good enough to work as a solo DPS, but the single-target nature of a Hunt character who isn't Seele is definitely an issue.
    - Clara's potential in the team is high, but she suffers substantially against encounters that are not suited to her, like the monkey on side 1 of this test.
    - The Himeko team is competitive, but really wants to fight things that are weak to fire (obviously).
    - Kafka is real and can hurt you.

    Yeah, Himeko / Topaz was what I was hoping for.

    I'll keep chasing E6 for Sushang til rotation, but I might do it on Seele's banner now since I have the rest of Team Quantum. We'll see.

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    AstharielAsthariel The Book Eater Registered User regular
    edited October 2023
    I wanted to skip Topaz because I do not have a team fitting her (no Clara, no Himeko, no Jing Yuan), but for some reason she came to me ultra early after using 12 single passes (which gave me Topaz and 2x Guinaifen). At least it looks like she is pretty decent with Kafka? It is also good that I will be ready if I am ever spooked by any followup using characters later.

    Also, today I arrived at 250/300 when it comes to regular passes. 2 more months or so and I will be able to finally grab my own Bronya.

    Asthariel on
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    MirkelMirkel FinlandRegistered User regular
    Asthariel wrote: »
    Also, today I arrived at 250/300 when it comes to regular passes. 2 more months or so and I will be able to finally grab my own Bronya.

    I don't think we get quite 25 per month, more like 10-15 (5 from shop, one per week from SU, some from BP and ascending characters)? Anyways I'm just going to grab Bronya early by buying a bunch of regular passes with jades since there's nobody I want next patch. If I wait until December it's only 40 or so passes which is still of course a big no-no for the minmax crowd but I'm a big boy and I can make my own mistakes if I want to.

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    MaddocMaddoc I'm Bobbin Threadbare, are you my mother? Registered User regular
    Laughing at people crying gloom and doom over Clara+Topaz because it's one cycle slower on a fight that is a terrible match up for Clara.

    Honestly, what this ought to show you is just that Topaz is very solid as long as you have another character that utilizes follow up attacks.

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    initiatefailureinitiatefailure Registered User regular
    i'm pretty sure that 3 cycling side 1 is faster than any clear i've had and those teams are the "not good enough" ones

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    MaddocMaddoc I'm Bobbin Threadbare, are you my mother? Registered User regular
    edited October 2023
    Thing about Monkey is it's a slow attacking enemy that doesn't summon any adds, so Clara barely even gets any counter attacks off.

    It's fine, it's all fine.

    Also yeah, Bronya is busted and will probably never really fall off, we've known this since the beginning. Still a little sad about my beta account that got Bronya right away. Oh well, 80 standard pulls to go.

    Maddoc on
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