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[Honkai: Star Rail] When the sun sets we will not forget the Black Swan over paradise

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    AshtonDragonAshtonDragon AKA The Nix Registered User regular
    There's leak details starting to come out for patch 2.1, probably will get full animations and stuff for characters over the next couple days, and I'll probably post the updated kit details for Acheron/Aventurine/Gallagher later. But I saw something and immediately thought the need to inform @Reynolds. Spoiler is just about a reward for a new event.
    sCZoyf2.jpeg

    Looks like you can get your E6 Xueyi, if you haven't rolled it by then. Barring that, the new characters being in there is pretty great too.

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    MadicanMadican No face Registered User regular
    Another Hanya eidolon will be a fine addition to my collection

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    ShadowfireShadowfire Vermont, in the middle of nowhereRegistered User regular
    Oh good, I won't have to pull for either character to get Gallagher!

    WiiU: Windrunner ; Guild Wars 2: Shadowfire.3940 ; PSN: Bradcopter
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    MirkelMirkel FinlandRegistered User regular
    Interesting that it's another 4* character instead of an event LC. I don't really mind, always nice to get to choose a character.

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    initiatefailureinitiatefailure Registered User regular
    That’s a lot of choices

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    ph blakeph blake Registered User regular
    Shadowfire wrote: »
    Oh good, I won't have to pull for either character to get Gallagher!

    This is my plan, hold out till 2.2, but god Acheron is tempting

    7h8wnycre6vs.png
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    AshtonDragonAshtonDragon AKA The Nix Registered User regular
    I definitely will be rolling in 2.1, but I'm not clear on which character yet. Leaning toward Aventurine, but I could imagine Acheron's animations winning me over.

    Going to depend on how much I have left after Sparkle, regardless. I'm guaranteed to get her, but I'm hoping it doesn't take as many rolls as it could. Also nonzero chance I go for Sparkle's light cone, but considering how much I like the kits for the 2.1 characters, I'm kinda doubting it.

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    LD50LD50 Registered User regular
    Well, I lost my 50/50 for dragon dan, but I squeezed a ton of jade out of simulated universe (I had never redeemed any of the jade for discovering curios or events or anything). I managed to pull him on my hard pity because my luck is trash tier.

    I'm basically out of everything (trace materials, money, jade, you name it), but I'm starting to build him and I'm thinking about how to put together some teams for pure fiction.

    I have Huohuo and Lynx for healers, e0 Ruan Mei, e6 Tingyun, and e-something Asta for buffers (and I have e0 bronya also but she's completely unbuilt). I was thinking of building Herta (I have s5 birth of the self to use for this). I have dragon Dan. I was thinking about throwing together something like:
    Team 1: Herta, Fire MC, healer, buffer
    Team 2: Dragon Dan, ???, healer, buffer

    I'm just not sure which buffers or healers would be best for which team. I'm guessing I want Tingyun with Dan for more energy regen for him. I don't know who else I should have on Dan's team either. I have a Welt I could use, but that's a lot of imaginary damage on one team, and Welt isn't exactly SP positive (and Danny is hungry for SP).

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    FryFry Registered User regular
    Skipping the healer for Pure Fiction seems like it might be a reasonable way to go, tbh

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    MadicanMadican No face Registered User regular
    PF doesn't punish for losing units and killing the big unit at the end isn't necessary for reaching the 60K minimum for full rewards on a level, so yeah you can forego a sustain and focus entirely on supports or more DPS as needed.

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    LD50LD50 Registered User regular
    I feel like bringing Huohuo will be worth it because she's secretly a support. I could skip Lynx on the team with the fire MC, I just don't know who else I could take. My other built dps is Dr Ratio and he's not going to do well there. i could try bringing Ruan Mei and Asta on the same team and troll everything with 'lol you never move again'.

    Something like Herta, Fire MC, Ruan Mei, Asta for team 1. Dragon Dan, Tingyun, Huohuo, and ??? for team 2.

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    ShadowfireShadowfire Vermont, in the middle of nowhereRegistered User regular
    ph blake wrote: »
    Shadowfire wrote: »
    Oh good, I won't have to pull for either character to get Gallagher!

    This is my plan, hold out till 2.2, but god Acheron is tempting

    I've got enough deeps. But I'm gonna save for Sam because he's badass.

    WiiU: Windrunner ; Guild Wars 2: Shadowfire.3940 ; PSN: Bradcopter
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    MadicanMadican No face Registered User regular
    Sam's got a ton of qualities that make it impossible for me to not pull for them.

    - Power armor with a cool design
    - Banger theme song
    - Tokusatsu and I'm probably spelling that wrong
    - Canonically will knife someone in their own apartment without ever letting them turn on the lights first

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    DonnictonDonnicton Registered User regular
    Madican wrote: »
    - Canonically will knife someone in their own apartment without ever letting them turn on the lights first

    After eating their cereal too, probably.

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    ShadowfireShadowfire Vermont, in the middle of nowhereRegistered User regular
    Madican wrote: »
    Sam's got a ton of qualities that make it impossible for me to not pull for them.

    - Power armor with a cool design
    - Banger theme song
    - Tokusatsu and I'm probably spelling that wrong
    - Canonically will knife someone in their own apartment without ever letting them turn on the lights first

    The power armor looks like it's ripped directly from Vanquish and I wish that his technique was a "Smoke" button.

    Also he's a Sam in power armor.
    THERE WILL BE -- BLOOD -- SHED
    THE MAN IN THE MIRROR NODS HIS HEAD

    WiiU: Windrunner ; Guild Wars 2: Shadowfire.3940 ; PSN: Bradcopter
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    LD50LD50 Registered User regular
    Anyone have thoughts on using the ashblazing grand duke relic set with Herta?

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    MirkelMirkel FinlandRegistered User regular
    Fry wrote: »
    Skipping the healer for Pure Fiction seems like it might be a reasonable way to go, tbh

    One thing you can run out of is SP though. I feel like bringing Luocha to spam his basic attack and still heal everybody once his field gets up from ults and freebie skills is well worth it because he uses zero SP. Of course some dps characters do a ton of damage even if you don't have any SP budget for them, like Himeko. Just something to keep in mind, I know I've sometimes made teams who end up being crap because they don't have the SP they need.

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    ReynoldsReynolds Gone Fishin'Registered User regular
    Ruan Mei on one team and Tingyun on the other helps lower point usage, along with someone like Clara, Serval, March, or Pela.

    uyvfOQy.png
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    LD50LD50 Registered User regular
    Reynolds wrote: »
    Ruan Mei on one team and Tingyun on the other helps lower point usage, along with someone like Clara, Serval, March, or Pela.

    I have Huohuo's E1, which helps make her more sp positive. Not quite as good as luocha, but her buff is amazing too.

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    ArcTangentArcTangent Registered User regular
    I definitely will be rolling in 2.1, but I'm not clear on which character yet. Leaning toward Aventurine, but I could imagine Acheron's animations winning me over.

    Going to depend on how much I have left after Sparkle, regardless. I'm guaranteed to get her, but I'm hoping it doesn't take as many rolls as it could. Also nonzero chance I go for Sparkle's light cone, but considering how much I like the kits for the 2.1 characters, I'm kinda doubting it.

    Maybe I'm missing something (or he'll get some major buffs between now and release), but I'm super skeptical on both of them, especially Aventurine.
    His shield isn't all that meaty in a single application, and all his buffs (and ability to re-apply his shield off-turn) rely on his shield staying up. In order to be SP neutral to maintain it, he needs to take a ton of weak hits without his shield breaking to get his talent to trigger, but that's not really what high level enemies are all about. He needs his E1 to make his talent consistent in in FUA parties, but Ratio and Topaz definitely don't want to be in fights with a shit-ton of little enemies like that, and Clara will just eat the shield in a couple attacks. Elites/bosses that slam you for a shitload will wipe out his shield instantly, and unlike Gepard, you have to wait until his turn to reapply it, and take two turns to get it back to full strength. His talent is only going to be triggering like, every 2-3 turns without the little swarms, making him... a sustain that's strong for PF and against the 1.5-1.6 bosses (Argenti/bugs)? But it also wants a single enemy to hammer his talent's 7 attacks into, so not multi-target fights. It feels at odds with itself to me. Only one CC block for himself every two turns feels insufficient since the enemies where you really need it (eg Arumaton, Cocolia, etc) are spamming CC nonstop. And unlike Gepard/Huohuo, he can't 'improv' his shield as much as Gepard and Huohuo can their sustain (holding ult or basic attacking, respectively) if it's unneeded at that moment because then it falls off and you lose all of it.

    That's on top of his more general issues. He's at best, SP neutral, probably mostly negative, so SP hungry units don't love him. Like Gepard, he doesn't play well with Bronya/Sparkle/Jingliu/Seele because their turn advances are likely to burn off his shields before he can refresh them and it's even worse for him because it takes time to ramp them back up. In order for his damage to be even a factor, you'll need to worry about crit stats, so he'll be harder to build (though breaks don't care about that, so he will shred Imaginary weak boss shields). He'll likely be better than Gepard overall just for providing some extra stuff and CC resistance compared to Gepard's fuckall, but it takes him two turns and a net *4* SP to get like 15% more shields, which is a huge cost that I can't see his damage and buffs being enough of a trade to be worth it. The only DPS with followups that match the kind of fights he wants and aren't SP devourers are Xueyi, Himeko, and Herta. Harmony characters definitely won't be helping his damage either since they're better focused on actual DPS (I guess he gets some benefit from Ruan Mei and Hanya, but Asta's Atk buff isn't what he scales on).

    I wouldn't be surprised if he was changed to make his talent provide a bigger shield or trigger more often as that'd help his shield generation and maintenance, but I expect they'll be restrained here since a sustain that could just spam their skill every turn and make the party invulnerable would be a bit busted, though maybe how slow it'd be would be what holds that back. Or they make his weak offense better. Or he just takes over for Gepard at being the ridiculous god of Preservation SU.

    Acheron is just weird to me.
    She looks like she has big numbers, but she's an Erudition character misclassed as Nihility and is stuck with Nihility LCs on top of being tied at the hip to two of Silver Wolf/Swan/Guinafen, which will limit her parties. Maybe her ult is just that absurd, and there's some goofy synergy with someone like March who can debuff 3-4 times a turn with her counters and juice her stacks. Or Gepard/Aventurine with Trend? I dunno. She's a signature expy, so I can't imagine she'll be BAD bad, but maybe she's huge-ass whale bait to relieve her party comp issues at her E2.

    ztrEPtD.gif
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    MirkelMirkel FinlandRegistered User regular
    I haven't really looked at their kit in depth yet but so far the versions of limited 5*s going live have been generally very good IMO. So I have faith that they either already work or they make them work.

    A cynical take on Acheron would be that because almost all Nihility LCs suck for her you'll need to get her signature LC if you want to use her well. Hoping HSR doesn't go too far on that road. Of course she can always use Fermata if nothing else, it's not great but it works with her kit more or less.

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    ShadowfireShadowfire Vermont, in the middle of nowhereRegistered User regular
    So we're questioning Acheron and Aventurine, but can we agree that Gallagher has a kit that looks like it'll be a blast?
    Flat healing so you can focus on speed, break, and ER. Heal on hit. Increased break effect for the team.

    I might have to pull on the banners just to get more of him. He sounds great, and his abilities are based around his drinking.

    WiiU: Windrunner ; Guild Wars 2: Shadowfire.3940 ; PSN: Bradcopter
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    MirkelMirkel FinlandRegistered User regular
    His kit seems pretty wild for a 4* for sure. As a general idea I don't like to build more 4* healers as I already have two built (Lynx, Nat) and they aren't that different but he might just be. Something to think about - since his AE healing relies on a debuff on the enemies, he might not be that great in any fight where you are hitting spawning enemies as any enemies spawning after his ult won't have the debuff. Also it won't heal anybody using their turn to buff others for example.

    Will be interesting to see the animations for him. And to see just how much or little damage he adds to the team, Luocha doesn't do much even though he scales with ATK. Fire breaks with a bunch of BE on the other hand might be cool.

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    ReynoldsReynolds Gone Fishin'Registered User regular
    edited February 19
    If he doesn't have a cleanse, he's not going to be very useful in most endgame content. And if they ever steer away from overloading everything with stuns, that just makes it easier to run zero sustain (or not spend skill points cleansing with one).

    Edit: Getting really depressed trying to get Gepard ready. I farmed the Def/Lightning cavern for weeks to gear up both Serval and Kafka, and yet somehow still don't have a set for him. And this is after stealing the best pieces from March and MC. So now I have to grind the 70-80 exp, grind traces (at least it's just the Ult, everything else does literally nothing), and then grind more gear to make him useable.

    Spent my free SU tokens and got yet more garbage, after about a month of looking for a better set for Xueyi.

    Still can't finish the last half of the achievements in G&G. Two sustain isn't enough damage, with no Ruan Mei support. Two DPS just gets you one shot due to no shields. I've cleared it with the few dice that are broken, after trying dozens of times each, and now I'm stuck endlessly repeating runs with the shitty dice that do almost nothing for you in comparison.

    If Black Swan doesn't completely annihilate the new MoC after all the pulls I spent (and all the time I spent rounding up achievements and sidequests) followed by the level/LC/gear grind, I'm not sure what else to do, really. I'm spending a lot of time and effort to perform really poorly and feel bad.

    Reynolds on
    uyvfOQy.png
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    AshtonDragonAshtonDragon AKA The Nix Registered User regular
    ArcTangent wrote: »
    I definitely will be rolling in 2.1, but I'm not clear on which character yet. Leaning toward Aventurine, but I could imagine Acheron's animations winning me over.

    Going to depend on how much I have left after Sparkle, regardless. I'm guaranteed to get her, but I'm hoping it doesn't take as many rolls as it could. Also nonzero chance I go for Sparkle's light cone, but considering how much I like the kits for the 2.1 characters, I'm kinda doubting it.

    Maybe I'm missing something (or he'll get some major buffs between now and release), but I'm super skeptical on both of them, especially Aventurine.
    His shield isn't all that meaty in a single application, and all his buffs (and ability to re-apply his shield off-turn) rely on his shield staying up. In order to be SP neutral to maintain it, he needs to take a ton of weak hits without his shield breaking to get his talent to trigger, but that's not really what high level enemies are all about. He needs his E1 to make his talent consistent in in FUA parties, but Ratio and Topaz definitely don't want to be in fights with a shit-ton of little enemies like that, and Clara will just eat the shield in a couple attacks. Elites/bosses that slam you for a shitload will wipe out his shield instantly, and unlike Gepard, you have to wait until his turn to reapply it, and take two turns to get it back to full strength. His talent is only going to be triggering like, every 2-3 turns without the little swarms, making him... a sustain that's strong for PF and against the 1.5-1.6 bosses (Argenti/bugs)? But it also wants a single enemy to hammer his talent's 7 attacks into, so not multi-target fights. It feels at odds with itself to me. Only one CC block for himself every two turns feels insufficient since the enemies where you really need it (eg Arumaton, Cocolia, etc) are spamming CC nonstop. And unlike Gepard/Huohuo, he can't 'improv' his shield as much as Gepard and Huohuo can their sustain (holding ult or basic attacking, respectively) if it's unneeded at that moment because then it falls off and you lose all of it.

    That's on top of his more general issues. He's at best, SP neutral, probably mostly negative, so SP hungry units don't love him. Like Gepard, he doesn't play well with Bronya/Sparkle/Jingliu/Seele because their turn advances are likely to burn off his shields before he can refresh them and it's even worse for him because it takes time to ramp them back up. In order for his damage to be even a factor, you'll need to worry about crit stats, so he'll be harder to build (though breaks don't care about that, so he will shred Imaginary weak boss shields). He'll likely be better than Gepard overall just for providing some extra stuff and CC resistance compared to Gepard's fuckall, but it takes him two turns and a net *4* SP to get like 15% more shields, which is a huge cost that I can't see his damage and buffs being enough of a trade to be worth it. The only DPS with followups that match the kind of fights he wants and aren't SP devourers are Xueyi, Himeko, and Herta. Harmony characters definitely won't be helping his damage either since they're better focused on actual DPS (I guess he gets some benefit from Ruan Mei and Hanya, but Asta's Atk buff isn't what he scales on).

    I wouldn't be surprised if he was changed to make his talent provide a bigger shield or trigger more often as that'd help his shield generation and maintenance, but I expect they'll be restrained here since a sustain that could just spam their skill every turn and make the party invulnerable would be a bit busted, though maybe how slow it'd be would be what holds that back. Or they make his weak offense better. Or he just takes over for Gepard at being the ridiculous god of Preservation SU.

    Acheron is just weird to me.
    She looks like she has big numbers, but she's an Erudition character misclassed as Nihility and is stuck with Nihility LCs on top of being tied at the hip to two of Silver Wolf/Swan/Guinafen, which will limit her parties. Maybe her ult is just that absurd, and there's some goofy synergy with someone like March who can debuff 3-4 times a turn with her counters and juice her stacks. Or Gepard/Aventurine with Trend? I dunno. She's a signature expy, so I can't imagine she'll be BAD bad, but maybe she's huge-ass whale bait to relieve her party comp issues at her E2.

    I haven't done that much theory crafting, but my very basic feeling on both characters.
    I definitely agree that there are teams and situations where Aventurine isn't ideal, and he's definitely not a strict upgrade over Gepard. I can't get a feel for how strong his shields are just by looking at numbers, so I'm just looking at what he's designed to do, and I think it's interesting. Consistent shields that aren't tied to his ultimate, skyrocketing the team's effect res, and actual damage output. The fact that he can do damage might make for some viable teams that don't fit the current templates. Maybe two sustains with him and Gallagher can actually do enough damage to clear? Maybe you can actually treat him as a sub DPS in a team? I really like that he does things that aren't the same as what every other sustain does. Also, for my specific case, I really want him for the Simulated Universe in particular. His design looks like it will be extremely spicy in there, considering that Quake can crit.

    Acheron is weird to everyone. It's absolutely true that she's designed like an Erudition or Destruction unit, but she's Nihility because of her focus on debuffs. I think that's fine, and I think her kit is super interesting, but it's undeniable that there's a huge issue with light cones. At a glance, I really can't think of what she could use besides Good Night & Sleep Well? She has zero free to play options. It's Blade all over again.
    Reynolds wrote: »
    If Black Swan doesn't completely annihilate the new MoC after all the pulls I spent (and all the time I spent rounding up achievements and sidequests) followed by the level/LC/gear grind, I'm not sure what else to do, really. I'm spending a lot of time and effort to perform really poorly and feel bad.

    I expect her to work pretty well, because she's generally very good, and dots work extremely well against one of the new elites, which will definitely make appearances. That said, it was the current Pure Fiction that was designed to be crushed by her. I wouldn't expect this MoC to also completely fold if you have her.

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    ArcTangentArcTangent Registered User regular
    ArcTangent wrote: »
    I definitely will be rolling in 2.1, but I'm not clear on which character yet. Leaning toward Aventurine, but I could imagine Acheron's animations winning me over.

    Going to depend on how much I have left after Sparkle, regardless. I'm guaranteed to get her, but I'm hoping it doesn't take as many rolls as it could. Also nonzero chance I go for Sparkle's light cone, but considering how much I like the kits for the 2.1 characters, I'm kinda doubting it.

    Maybe I'm missing something (or he'll get some major buffs between now and release), but I'm super skeptical on both of them, especially Aventurine.
    His shield isn't all that meaty in a single application, and all his buffs (and ability to re-apply his shield off-turn) rely on his shield staying up. In order to be SP neutral to maintain it, he needs to take a ton of weak hits without his shield breaking to get his talent to trigger, but that's not really what high level enemies are all about. He needs his E1 to make his talent consistent in in FUA parties, but Ratio and Topaz definitely don't want to be in fights with a shit-ton of little enemies like that, and Clara will just eat the shield in a couple attacks. Elites/bosses that slam you for a shitload will wipe out his shield instantly, and unlike Gepard, you have to wait until his turn to reapply it, and take two turns to get it back to full strength. His talent is only going to be triggering like, every 2-3 turns without the little swarms, making him... a sustain that's strong for PF and against the 1.5-1.6 bosses (Argenti/bugs)? But it also wants a single enemy to hammer his talent's 7 attacks into, so not multi-target fights. It feels at odds with itself to me. Only one CC block for himself every two turns feels insufficient since the enemies where you really need it (eg Arumaton, Cocolia, etc) are spamming CC nonstop. And unlike Gepard/Huohuo, he can't 'improv' his shield as much as Gepard and Huohuo can their sustain (holding ult or basic attacking, respectively) if it's unneeded at that moment because then it falls off and you lose all of it.

    That's on top of his more general issues. He's at best, SP neutral, probably mostly negative, so SP hungry units don't love him. Like Gepard, he doesn't play well with Bronya/Sparkle/Jingliu/Seele because their turn advances are likely to burn off his shields before he can refresh them and it's even worse for him because it takes time to ramp them back up. In order for his damage to be even a factor, you'll need to worry about crit stats, so he'll be harder to build (though breaks don't care about that, so he will shred Imaginary weak boss shields). He'll likely be better than Gepard overall just for providing some extra stuff and CC resistance compared to Gepard's fuckall, but it takes him two turns and a net *4* SP to get like 15% more shields, which is a huge cost that I can't see his damage and buffs being enough of a trade to be worth it. The only DPS with followups that match the kind of fights he wants and aren't SP devourers are Xueyi, Himeko, and Herta. Harmony characters definitely won't be helping his damage either since they're better focused on actual DPS (I guess he gets some benefit from Ruan Mei and Hanya, but Asta's Atk buff isn't what he scales on).

    I wouldn't be surprised if he was changed to make his talent provide a bigger shield or trigger more often as that'd help his shield generation and maintenance, but I expect they'll be restrained here since a sustain that could just spam their skill every turn and make the party invulnerable would be a bit busted, though maybe how slow it'd be would be what holds that back. Or they make his weak offense better. Or he just takes over for Gepard at being the ridiculous god of Preservation SU.

    Acheron is just weird to me.
    She looks like she has big numbers, but she's an Erudition character misclassed as Nihility and is stuck with Nihility LCs on top of being tied at the hip to two of Silver Wolf/Swan/Guinafen, which will limit her parties. Maybe her ult is just that absurd, and there's some goofy synergy with someone like March who can debuff 3-4 times a turn with her counters and juice her stacks. Or Gepard/Aventurine with Trend? I dunno. She's a signature expy, so I can't imagine she'll be BAD bad, but maybe she's huge-ass whale bait to relieve her party comp issues at her E2.

    I haven't done that much theory crafting, but my very basic feeling on both characters.
    I definitely agree that there are teams and situations where Aventurine isn't ideal, and he's definitely not a strict upgrade over Gepard. I can't get a feel for how strong his shields are just by looking at numbers, so I'm just looking at what he's designed to do, and I think it's interesting. Consistent shields that aren't tied to his ultimate, skyrocketing the team's effect res, and actual damage output. The fact that he can do damage might make for some viable teams that don't fit the current templates. Maybe two sustains with him and Gallagher can actually do enough damage to clear? Maybe you can actually treat him as a sub DPS in a team? I really like that he does things that aren't the same as what every other sustain does. Also, for my specific case, I really want him for the Simulated Universe in particular. His design looks like it will be extremely spicy in there, considering that Quake can crit.

    Acheron is weird to everyone. It's absolutely true that she's designed like an Erudition or Destruction unit, but she's Nihility because of her focus on debuffs. I think that's fine, and I think her kit is super interesting, but it's undeniable that there's a huge issue with light cones. At a glance, I really can't think of what she could use besides Good Night & Sleep Well? She has zero free to play options. It's Blade all over again.
    Reynolds wrote: »
    If Black Swan doesn't completely annihilate the new MoC after all the pulls I spent (and all the time I spent rounding up achievements and sidequests) followed by the level/LC/gear grind, I'm not sure what else to do, really. I'm spending a lot of time and effort to perform really poorly and feel bad.

    I expect her to work pretty well, because she's generally very good, and dots work extremely well against one of the new elites, which will definitely make appearances. That said, it was the current Pure Fiction that was designed to be crushed by her. I wouldn't expect this MoC to also completely fold if you have her.
    He'd still be flexible and able to convert SP to sustain in a way that Gepard and even Fu Xuan can't, and that's not nothing, but I think people are mathing out that he can theoretically have bigger shields than Gepard, while also doing some other things, therefore he's much better than Gepard, not quite understanding that the cost to do so is pretty significant. And if you don't pay it, his shields after the first turn end up quite a bit weaker than Gepard's. Which says to me that he'll have beefy sustain upfront, but dropping off significantly over time, which is probably good enough if your DPS are strong enough to be 3-4 cycling top content, but if they're not, he's going to slow the team down by sucking up SP. Like, maybe that still turns a 6 turn loss with Gepard into a 10 turn clear with him, but again, I dunno. Maybe his niche is supposed to be a side DPS and he's meant to supplement sustain instead of solo, kind of like an improvement on Preservation TB.

    He will, inarguably, be an absolute beast in SU, though without the Remembrance and Erudition synergies Gepard (and March) have, I think they'll still be the king/queen of cheesing it.

    ztrEPtD.gif
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    ShadowfireShadowfire Vermont, in the middle of nowhereRegistered User regular
    Everyone is a beast in SU.

    WiiU: Windrunner ; Guild Wars 2: Shadowfire.3940 ; PSN: Bradcopter
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    AshtonDragonAshtonDragon AKA The Nix Registered User regular
    Shadowfire wrote: »
    Everyone is a beast in SU.

    Oh absolutely, but I do think some are better at abusing stuff than others. I dunno when they're gonna do another event on the scale of Gold & Gears, but I think it's pretty safe to say they will sometime! I'm really hoping to make it so that Preservation isn't such a huge struggle, next time.

    On that note, because I am a lunatic, I was playing around with an alt account that has E6 Xueyi. Using her with Ruan Mei in the SU is so funny. Ruan Mei instantly breaks everything at the start of battle, and if Xueyi is the one who initiated the fight, all the toughness damage counts as coming from her. So she immediately does a follow-up attack. And then she also gets overflow from her last major trace, which at E6, is enough to trigger a second follow-up attack. I'd love to see if it's possible to get a build so strong that you instantly one-shot all three phases of a boss.

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    MadicanMadican No face Registered User regular
    Side note, it is very funny to meet those self-reviving enemies in SU with Nihility path Kafka/Black Swan team. They die to DoT, get back up and increase speed, then die to DoT again immediately.

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    LD50LD50 Registered User regular
    Ruan Mei makes SU runs so fast. Very good quality of life buff.

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    ArcTangentArcTangent Registered User regular
    edited February 19
    Shadowfire wrote: »
    Everyone is a beast in SU.

    Oh absolutely, but I do think some are better at abusing stuff than others. I dunno when they're gonna do another event on the scale of Gold & Gears, but I think it's pretty safe to say they will sometime! I'm really hoping to make it so that Preservation isn't such a huge struggle, next time.

    Have you really lived until you see a boss beat themselves to death on your 4x macroseg shield before you even take a proper turn?

    Preservation is definitely kind of a "Do you have Gepard? Congrats! You win EVERYTHING." And nigh useless for almost every other sustain. Aventurine will likely be the same, but without being able to dip his toe into Remembrance/Dissociation shenanigans quite as much if RNG is pushing you that way.

    ArcTangent on
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    ShadowfireShadowfire Vermont, in the middle of nowhereRegistered User regular
    Shadowfire wrote: »
    Everyone is a beast in SU.

    Oh absolutely, but I do think some are better at abusing stuff than others. I dunno when they're gonna do another event on the scale of Gold & Gears, but I think it's pretty safe to say they will sometime! I'm really hoping to make it so that Preservation isn't such a huge struggle, next time.

    On that note, because I am a lunatic, I was playing around with an alt account that has E6 Xueyi. Using her with Ruan Mei in the SU is so funny. Ruan Mei instantly breaks everything at the start of battle, and if Xueyi is the one who initiated the fight, all the toughness damage counts as coming from her. So she immediately does a follow-up attack. And then she also gets overflow from her last major trace, which at E6, is enough to trigger a second follow-up attack. I'd love to see if it's possible to get a build so strong that you instantly one-shot all three phases of a boss.

    I just did SU3 with Kafka/Black Swan/Serval/Luocha and Gepard didn't even get a turn. Get up, DOT to death, next phase, DOT to death, last phase, DOT. It felt like cheating.

    WiiU: Windrunner ; Guild Wars 2: Shadowfire.3940 ; PSN: Bradcopter
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    LD50LD50 Registered User regular
    He's only like 50% built but man dragon dan is good.

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    AshtonDragonAshtonDragon AKA The Nix Registered User regular
    Reynolds wrote: »
    If Black Swan doesn't completely annihilate the new MoC after all the pulls I spent (and all the time I spent rounding up achievements and sidequests) followed by the level/LC/gear grind, I'm not sure what else to do, really. I'm spending a lot of time and effort to perform really poorly and feel bad.

    I expect her to work pretty well, because she's generally very good, and dots work extremely well against one of the new elites, which will definitely make appearances. That said, it was the current Pure Fiction that was designed to be crushed by her. I wouldn't expect this MoC to also completely fold if you have her.

    Following up on this. Just ran through the new MoC, but I absolutely did not 36-star it. The turbulence is made for Dragon Dan, and there's lots of imaginary weak stuff, so it's clearly best for him. But there's also lots of wind and lightning weaknesses as well as mobs that dots are good against, so Black Swan/Kafka should be good too.

    That said, there's an extreme lack of quantum or ice weakness. No side weak to either element in the last three floors. And there's only one single side weak to quantum in everything from 7-12. It's rough out here. I really need to think of how to increase my damage output... and pretty dramatically, too. I was not close to getting 3 stars on either MoC11 or 12.

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    ArcTangentArcTangent Registered User regular
    ArcTangent wrote: »
    ArcTangent wrote: »
    I definitely will be rolling in 2.1, but I'm not clear on which character yet. Leaning toward Aventurine, but I could imagine Acheron's animations winning me over.

    Going to depend on how much I have left after Sparkle, regardless. I'm guaranteed to get her, but I'm hoping it doesn't take as many rolls as it could. Also nonzero chance I go for Sparkle's light cone, but considering how much I like the kits for the 2.1 characters, I'm kinda doubting it.

    Maybe I'm missing something (or he'll get some major buffs between now and release), but I'm super skeptical on both of them, especially Aventurine.
    His shield isn't all that meaty in a single application, and all his buffs (and ability to re-apply his shield off-turn) rely on his shield staying up. In order to be SP neutral to maintain it, he needs to take a ton of weak hits without his shield breaking to get his talent to trigger, but that's not really what high level enemies are all about. He needs his E1 to make his talent consistent in in FUA parties, but Ratio and Topaz definitely don't want to be in fights with a shit-ton of little enemies like that, and Clara will just eat the shield in a couple attacks. Elites/bosses that slam you for a shitload will wipe out his shield instantly, and unlike Gepard, you have to wait until his turn to reapply it, and take two turns to get it back to full strength. His talent is only going to be triggering like, every 2-3 turns without the little swarms, making him... a sustain that's strong for PF and against the 1.5-1.6 bosses (Argenti/bugs)? But it also wants a single enemy to hammer his talent's 7 attacks into, so not multi-target fights. It feels at odds with itself to me. Only one CC block for himself every two turns feels insufficient since the enemies where you really need it (eg Arumaton, Cocolia, etc) are spamming CC nonstop. And unlike Gepard/Huohuo, he can't 'improv' his shield as much as Gepard and Huohuo can their sustain (holding ult or basic attacking, respectively) if it's unneeded at that moment because then it falls off and you lose all of it.

    That's on top of his more general issues. He's at best, SP neutral, probably mostly negative, so SP hungry units don't love him. Like Gepard, he doesn't play well with Bronya/Sparkle/Jingliu/Seele because their turn advances are likely to burn off his shields before he can refresh them and it's even worse for him because it takes time to ramp them back up. In order for his damage to be even a factor, you'll need to worry about crit stats, so he'll be harder to build (though breaks don't care about that, so he will shred Imaginary weak boss shields). He'll likely be better than Gepard overall just for providing some extra stuff and CC resistance compared to Gepard's fuckall, but it takes him two turns and a net *4* SP to get like 15% more shields, which is a huge cost that I can't see his damage and buffs being enough of a trade to be worth it. The only DPS with followups that match the kind of fights he wants and aren't SP devourers are Xueyi, Himeko, and Herta. Harmony characters definitely won't be helping his damage either since they're better focused on actual DPS (I guess he gets some benefit from Ruan Mei and Hanya, but Asta's Atk buff isn't what he scales on).

    I wouldn't be surprised if he was changed to make his talent provide a bigger shield or trigger more often as that'd help his shield generation and maintenance, but I expect they'll be restrained here since a sustain that could just spam their skill every turn and make the party invulnerable would be a bit busted, though maybe how slow it'd be would be what holds that back. Or they make his weak offense better. Or he just takes over for Gepard at being the ridiculous god of Preservation SU.

    Acheron is just weird to me.
    She looks like she has big numbers, but she's an Erudition character misclassed as Nihility and is stuck with Nihility LCs on top of being tied at the hip to two of Silver Wolf/Swan/Guinafen, which will limit her parties. Maybe her ult is just that absurd, and there's some goofy synergy with someone like March who can debuff 3-4 times a turn with her counters and juice her stacks. Or Gepard/Aventurine with Trend? I dunno. She's a signature expy, so I can't imagine she'll be BAD bad, but maybe she's huge-ass whale bait to relieve her party comp issues at her E2.

    I haven't done that much theory crafting, but my very basic feeling on both characters.
    I definitely agree that there are teams and situations where Aventurine isn't ideal, and he's definitely not a strict upgrade over Gepard. I can't get a feel for how strong his shields are just by looking at numbers, so I'm just looking at what he's designed to do, and I think it's interesting. Consistent shields that aren't tied to his ultimate, skyrocketing the team's effect res, and actual damage output. The fact that he can do damage might make for some viable teams that don't fit the current templates. Maybe two sustains with him and Gallagher can actually do enough damage to clear? Maybe you can actually treat him as a sub DPS in a team? I really like that he does things that aren't the same as what every other sustain does. Also, for my specific case, I really want him for the Simulated Universe in particular. His design looks like it will be extremely spicy in there, considering that Quake can crit.

    Acheron is weird to everyone. It's absolutely true that she's designed like an Erudition or Destruction unit, but she's Nihility because of her focus on debuffs. I think that's fine, and I think her kit is super interesting, but it's undeniable that there's a huge issue with light cones. At a glance, I really can't think of what she could use besides Good Night & Sleep Well? She has zero free to play options. It's Blade all over again.
    Reynolds wrote: »
    If Black Swan doesn't completely annihilate the new MoC after all the pulls I spent (and all the time I spent rounding up achievements and sidequests) followed by the level/LC/gear grind, I'm not sure what else to do, really. I'm spending a lot of time and effort to perform really poorly and feel bad.

    I expect her to work pretty well, because she's generally very good, and dots work extremely well against one of the new elites, which will definitely make appearances. That said, it was the current Pure Fiction that was designed to be crushed by her. I wouldn't expect this MoC to also completely fold if you have her.
    He'd still be flexible and able to convert SP to sustain in a way that Gepard and even Fu Xuan can't, and that's not nothing, but I think people are mathing out that he can theoretically have bigger shields than Gepard, while also doing some other things, therefore he's much better than Gepard, not quite understanding that the cost to do so is pretty significant. And if you don't pay it, his shields after the first turn end up quite a bit weaker than Gepard's. Which says to me that he'll have beefy sustain upfront, but dropping off significantly over time, which is probably good enough if your DPS are strong enough to be 3-4 cycling top content, but if they're not, he's going to slow the team down by sucking up SP. Like, maybe that still turns a 6 turn loss with Gepard into a 10 turn clear with him, but again, I dunno. Maybe his niche is supposed to be a side DPS and he's meant to supplement sustain instead of solo, kind of like an improvement on Preservation TB.

    He will, inarguably, be an absolute beast in SU, though without the Remembrance and Erudition synergies Gepard (and March) have, I think they'll still be the king/queen of cheesing it.

    As a followup, he's already getting buffs from the initial, and Acheron getting nerfs. Something that wasn't obvious from the initial kit is that:
    His talent counts increase per shield hit in an attack. ie An AoE that hits all 4 shielded party members gives 4 stacks. Ally FUAs adding to his stacks is a lot less important when he picks up like 4 per enemy turn. But the shield from the talent is still really flimsy and will nowhere near outpace damage from serious enemies, so he still really seems to me to be geared towards PF and the bosses that spam weak adds like Argenti, Yanqing, and Stingy, which is at odds with his own followup actually being effective against them. I guess it's a trade, but it doesn't feel like a good one.

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    ReynoldsReynolds Gone Fishin'Registered User regular
    edited February 20
    Reynolds wrote: »
    If Black Swan doesn't completely annihilate the new MoC after all the pulls I spent (and all the time I spent rounding up achievements and sidequests) followed by the level/LC/gear grind, I'm not sure what else to do, really. I'm spending a lot of time and effort to perform really poorly and feel bad.

    I expect her to work pretty well, because she's generally very good, and dots work extremely well against one of the new elites, which will definitely make appearances. That said, it was the current Pure Fiction that was designed to be crushed by her. I wouldn't expect this MoC to also completely fold if you have her.

    Following up on this. Just ran through the new MoC, but I absolutely did not 36-star it. The turbulence is made for Dragon Dan, and there's lots of imaginary weak stuff, so it's clearly best for him. But there's also lots of wind and lightning weaknesses as well as mobs that dots are good against, so Black Swan/Kafka should be good too.

    That said, there's an extreme lack of quantum or ice weakness. No side weak to either element in the last three floors. And there's only one single side weak to quantum in everything from 7-12. It's rough out here. I really need to think of how to increase my damage output... and pretty dramatically, too. I was not close to getting 3 stars on either MoC11 or 12.

    After sitting down to look at MoC...every stage still has all the non-boss mobs weak to Ice, so Jingliu is doing fine. She's just no longer an autowin against every floor boos like before. I'm sure there's a bunch of people crying about this, and if not they will be if/when Prydwen updates and swaps her and Dan on the tier list. It's a refreshing change, and I look forward to the tantrums.

    I was able to clear everything on full auto, and clear up through 11 on full auto. Now that he's a full boss, the Sam fight is stupid and really unfun. I was annoyed, and I was just watching the computer fight itself there. The shinigami boss fight is also very boring and bad. Both revolve around just not letting you do full damage, and having to time your bursts into very narrow windows where the boss loses their damage reduction, as well as fucking with your skill point generation and healing. They suck!

    Black Swan did indeed more than pull her own weight, clearing the first side of floor 12 in three turns. I have no idea how, as I just let that team run on auto after seeing that result the first attempt, and they repeated it on the second attempt. The shinigami boss requires way too much timing and decision making for the AI to handle, but as soon as I was there to make sure everyone didn't spam their Ults while it was armored up and focused on freeing the stunned characters when necessary, I got it first try.

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    Time to...I guess not spend those rewards for another week. And then probably still not spend them for another three weeks after that.

    Edit: I went to check, and everyone just brute forced it with Jingliu anyway, because she's still that overpowered. Thanks Mihoyo.

    Double Edit: Acheron's animations might be the coolest thing in the game, and also make it extra confusing that she's not just Quantum. Nothing Lightning here at all.

    Reynolds on
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    AshtonDragonAshtonDragon AKA The Nix Registered User regular
    Reynolds wrote: »
    Double Edit: Acheron's animations might be the coolest thing in the game, and also make it extra confusing that she's not just Quantum. Nothing Lightning here at all.

    I was expecting Acheron's animations to be awesome, and boy, they do not disappoint. It still very much remains to be seen how strong the new characters are, so it's too early to talk of power creep, but we definitely have some animation creep.

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    MaddocMaddoc I'm Bobbin Threadbare, are you my mother? Registered User regular
    While numbers are always subject to change over the course of testing, it sounds like Acheron is quite strong and Id expect her to stay that way.

    People are making a big deal over her eidolons, E2 specifically, and stating that she will "need" it. But much like Raiden in Genshin, it's certainly nice and will make her better but it's not required by any means.

    What kind of is required, and I had guessed this ahead of time, is her light cone. As an Erudition character disguised as Nihility, most Nihility LCs are not very good for her.

    I think, ultimately, I'm probably not going to pull for her though just because I want Sparkle and Aventurine, and that's gonna be tough enough as is.

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    DonnictonDonnicton Registered User regular
    I don't really want Aventurine or Acheron specifically, but because they're going to be the Gallagher warps I'm probably going to still have to go Acheron anyway, given the choice.

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    ReynoldsReynolds Gone Fishin'Registered User regular
    edited February 20
    It's baffling that she's not Quantum Erudition, or even Destruction. It really feels like they're just doing it to sell the Light Cone and reference a character they don't need to reference.

    Then again they made Ruan Mei, who's wearing green and constantly talking about wind, into an Ice character. While Black Swan summons ice crystals and follows that path that gives you freezing powers in SU, but is somehow Wind.

    Reynolds on
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