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Fat Guy in a Little Seat - Airlines, ADA, and Accessability
tinwhiskers
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Registered User regular
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYB3Fx0a8-4So this is thread is motivated by my recent travels, along with a couple of news items or thread tangents that popped up over the last few months.
The double-decker airplane seat is back.
Plus-size travel blogger, Jae'lynn Chaney, has started a petition to allow plus-size people to book a second airline seat for free.
"The FAA must require all airlines to implement a clear customer-of-size policy that prioritizes the comfort and well-being of all passengers," she added. "This policy should include clear guidelines on accommodating larger passengers, such as providing larger seats, seat-belt extenders, and alternative seating arrangements."
Chaney told Newsweek the petition was "not just about getting free seats for people who need more space on planes."
"It's about so much more than that. It's about spreading awareness, fighting for a more inclusive future, and helping accommodate those who need it. It's about creating a world where everyone, regardless of their size or shape, can travel comfortably and safely," she said.
Chaney added, "the precedent for policies like this has already been set" and praised Southwest Airlines as having the best and most successful customer-of-size policy.
"They've shown that it's possible to create a policy that's both inclusive and profitable, and many plus-size people fly with them because of their policy. In Canada, the one-person, one-fare policy requires transportation services to provide free additional seats, and it's been incredibly successful as well," she told Newsweek.
The influencer explained she started her blog because "as someone whose body doesn't fit the societal norm, I found myself struggling to navigate travel in a way that felt comfortable and safe."
The FAA Limits Seats On Airplanes — Seat Sizes Don’t Need Regulation
There has been a lot of noise recently about regulating the size of airline seats. As a nation we are getting heavier, and so with seats a fixed size there are increasing pressures to make seats wider, or with more space between rows (called seat pitch). Yet airlines have been been moving in the opposite direction, generally adding more seats and finding ways to make seats thinner.
This movement is a subset of the broader inclusive initiatives, and as a concept this is great and where we should be going. That said, this aspect of inclusion runs into the economics of airline ticket prices as it creates conflicts with the idea of bigger or fewer seats. This is a difficult issue to address, and it’s not as if there no regulation in this area either.
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How Seats Are Regulated Today
The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) determines the maximum number of seats that can be installed into most commercial aircraft. This is a function of the number and size of exits, as a quick evacuation in an emergency is the standard. The airlines must prove that a full plane can be evacuated within 90 seconds. The translates to, for example, a maximum of 210 seats on a Boeing MAX-8-200 or 186 seats on an Airbus A320NEO. RyanAir has flown the Boeing 737-NG with the maximum 189 seats for many years.
In 2015, Airbus saw competition between its A320 and the Boeing 737 for the ultra-low cost carrier market. The A320 at the time was certified for a maximum of 180 seats, but the competing 737 could hold 189 seats. Airbus went though a process to re-measure and confirm that the door openings on the A320 were wide enough to allow another row of seats. They were successful, and the seat maximum for the A320 was increased to 186. Now only with three fewer seats than then 737, Airbus felt they had closed the gap. The newer Boeing MAX series pushes this further by adding even more seats to those models.
Airlines must regularly prove that they can meet the evacuation standards. They tend to do this in a sterile aircraft hangar, load the plane full with healthy people, and use a stopwatch to measure the evacuation time. Critics argue that these best case examples do not reflect the reality of a panicked emergency where many customers may not be able to move so quickly.
My Story
On a 3.5 hour international flight, I was in 3x3 economy seating, on the aisle. After sitting down, the person sitting in the middle seat boards. I would caracterize both of us as 'Typical American Fat'. Me more so than him, but I'm shorter and carry most my extra weight in a forward facing gut. Either way we would both be able to sit in our seats with the armrest down, if not in ideal comfort.
Then our window seat boards. This guy is very large. Not tall, probably 5'-10ish. But round. I would guess he is a 65" waist range. He extended 6" over the line of the inner edge of where the armrest would have been, even squeezing himself against the window. With all 3 of us sitting-both armrests up, my inside knee was roughly in line with the middle of my seat. I sat the entire flight leaning forward and over into the aisle one leg sticking out, and had to duck forward in basically the brace position in order for the drink cart or people going to the restroom to pass.
The flight attendants checked and all other seats were full, this flight had first class(2x2 larger seats). Should the airline have, forced Big Guy to buy 2 economy seats or a 1st class ticket? Provide him those free of charge or at discount? Deboarded him once it became clear there was no option to seat him +2 non-children in row? Found some children to swap seats with me and the other guy? Is this not really a problem, and people should accept being squeezed against strangers like its the Tokyo metro at rush hour? Everyone wants cheap flights, which invariably means fitting as many people in the plane as possible.
I didn't make a big deal about it on the flight cause I'm sure he felt embarrassed, It wasn't that long of a flight, and per my therapist I have 'a high tolerance for being miserable'. But if this was some cross oceanflight where I couldn't sit back in my seat for 8+ hours, this wouldn't have been a tenable situation. I was given 2 free cocktails to compensate. Once service was over, me and the middle seat guy took turns standing in the area behind the bathrooms for the last couple hours of the flight, which is probably a violation of some FAA regulations. I am totally going to bitch in the 'how was your flight' survey they emailed me to see if I can get some compensation/points/whatever.
This thread is about discussing the airlines, accommodations, accommodating children on flights, etc I don't know anything about how airlines do or don't accommodate passengers in wheelchairs-in the permanent sense not just needing help to from the airport entrance to the plane door. So If anyone can speak to that please do.
It is not about:
Reclining: You are allowed to recline, just look first and do so gently so you don't spill someone's tray table. If on long-haul, move you seat upright during meal time.
Armrests: The middle gets both, if in 4 across figure it out like humans.
Swapping seats: You aren't required to give up your seat, so someone can sit together/have a window/ exit row etc. They can ask, you can say no, they have to accept it and move on.
Because if you disagree with me you are just wrong.
tinwhiskers on
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"8. The Right to Receive Seating Accommodations."
Basically, if you need a service animal or assistant, the airline needs to provide an adjacent seat. However, I'm not seeing anything about requiring this to be free, and a search turns up at least some airlines where the assistant still needs to buy a ticket. If this rule was extended to overweight people, the equivalent would be that an airline needs to provide an additional adjacent seat on request, but that extra seat would still cost money. This is less than ideal, obviously, but it's less than ideal in the same way many other disabled people have to deal with.
Actually hell, I want width too; I'm so broad in the shoulder I can't sit on the aisle without bouncing my shoulder off the carts.
Edit: Though if someone needs two seats, bought two seats, and is only using like... 4 inches of that other one? IDGAF, I want to sit in that row; you bought that seat, it's yours. That's a considerate person there and probably a great row-mate. I would rather sit next to the service animal though. For reasons. Obviously.
And I imagine the business model is to cram as many people into their flying cylinder per flight as they're legally allowed.
Fuck airlines.
That being said - No, I don't think fat people should get an extra seat for free.
I have trauma from frequently have this violated by people growing up.
Sitting right next to someone for 3-12 hours has me dealing with pretty constant anxiety.
The difference between sitting next to someone, or between people, and having an empty seat there is staggering. There's no stress at all, and I actually have a non awful experience.
If I get a note, should I get a free empty seat?
Regulation for quality of service is absolutely necessary
I will say this, I'm a very large person, and I fly a great deal (or did, up till a couple years ago). The routes I tend to fly, first and business class are generally cheaper than 2x economy and bring a ton of extra perks so I've been doing that. Sometimes however, that's been ALMOST as problematic. The new "pod" seats for instance can be incredibly uncomfortable because now instead of open space, my bulk is now being pressed in by "privatization" walls. Even looking at 2 tickets, there is no easy/convenient way to buy them online, which means calling in usually to talk to a person, so you lose a bunch of the time advantages of online purchases (and you have to interact with... people.. ugh). I've also been told by airlines when exploring this that the airline could count those extra seats as "up for grabs" when boarding overbooked planes and give them away. This was a few years back and I never did it but.... yeah.
In terms of flight experience, I sympathize with folks flying with overweight passengers but, there is often a lot left out about the experience of the flyer themself. Some planes (757 I think?) have a narrow access walkway, which... when I was skinny and still broad in the shoulders, I could just turn and walk sideways. Last time I had serious concerns about even being able to get on/off the plane. Also, I work REALLY hard to not need to go to the bathroom on the plane, and god forbid I'm dealing with that on coach. Not counting the fact that big people walking to the bathroom looks like the giant boulder in Raiders with everyone ducking to the sides to make room, just doing ANYTHING within the confines of those coffin sized bathrooms is problematic. The good news is, I don't have to be worried about being tossed about in the bathroom during turbulence as I can just brace myself with my shoulders/etc.
Then there were the times I flew into Paine Field up in Everett, WA on the smaller Embraer planes. The problem there is that the button to recline the seat is maddeningly on the INSIDE of the arm rest meaning that my bulk is pressing up against it CONSTANTLY. The entire process of takeoff is probably the sickest ab workout I've ever got as I have to use my legs and abs to hold myself upright instead of flying backwards on a chair that now wants to recline against my will (and I'm not kidding about any aspect of that). Then, even with 2 seats. When I fly with my kids, as they are still quite young, I can fly coach because well, I can use up some of their space, but, it's hardly what I'd call comfortable as, even with the armrest fully up, it doesn't mesh all the way into the seat, so I now have this arm thing in my shoulder or back the whole flight. There is also the fun shame about trying to eat when the trays don't actually fit around you, or at BEST will KIND of work in drink mode, or that because of how airplane seats are, you can't lean over your food.
I could go on, and a lot of people are going to say "well just lose weight!" and.. yeah, ok, thanks. I guess my point is this. Much like the issue of babies on airplanes. People who bring these situations on the planes with you are ACUTELY aware of the impact they are having, are far more embarrassed (and possibly more impacted by it than you) and don't get to have it end when they off the plane.
More than one airline actually upcharge you for aisle seats now, so technically it costs .... no, it deprives them of additional profit if they do it at no additional cost. Heck, I've seen them upcharging for exit rows of all things.
Also as a "wider than usual" dude, nah, aisle doesn't really fix anything, since you block traffic/carts/etc unless you lean into your neighbor. Which everyone loves, I assure you.
The problem is that there's no money in better service. No matter how much people complain, they will not willingly pay more for better conditions so the incentive structure is to make flying as cheap as possible. They provide the least amount of service possible because that's what the consumer actually wants.
I have no idea how the average healthy adult male is meant to cope, let alone anyone who is bigger than that in any dimension, or who has mobility issues. Shit is ridiculous.
If I ever have to fly an Asian carrier, it's gonna be... Something. The really spendy ones are probably going to be okay, but otherwise...
The one time I've had to do that it was fine. Granted I was in business class for that flight, but on the connecting (not trans pacific..) flight that didn't mean much.
Weight is also broken down by gender, but the standard number thrown around is usually 190-200 lbs.
Fun fact: all doors in commercial aircraft aren't allowed to actually prevent egress, they are all designed for at least a 5'1"", ~100 lb women to be able to break them down to escape during emergencies.
Source: I did interiors engineering for a few years, though I don't currently work in that area anymore, I can try to offer some insight if people have questions about why certain things are the way they are.
Edit:
The short version is that nearly everything inside a plane is dictated by either A) emergency requirements or B ) large scale average assumptions about the US/EU/BR/JP/CN flying public.
Outside of very specific needs related to disabilities that are beyond a person's control, fat people should not get extra airline seats for free. If you take up more space than you should pay for that space, anything otherwise is unfair to the people sitting next to you (who have also paid for their space, which is being encroached upon). Society does not owe you anything, and should not be forced to change to accomodate your choices. You should be forced to accomodate society, by paying for an additional seat or paying for a business class/first class seat.
I am between 6' and 6'1" tall (depending on how shitty my posture is on any given day). I am outside of the normal range of human height. I would love for airline seats to be spaced farther apart to accomodate my height (which, short of amputation, is a factor beyond my control). I would also love for airline tickets to be cheaper. These two things are mutually exclusive.
The last time I flew was a couple months ago, and I flew First Class for the first time. It has ruined coach for me forever.
So I can't really see the idea of someone getting an extra seat for free, regardless of the reason, not causing a lot of people to freak the fuck out about where the fuck their free shit is
Celeste [Switch] - She'll be wrestling with inner demons when she comes...
Final Fantasy XII: The Zodiac Age [Switch] - Sit down and watch our game play itself
This race to the bottom airlines are engaging in is the worst
Spirit and frontier airlines should not be allowed to exist with their mission statements
FWIW: That's pretty much within a standard deviation of average for men.
That's would be within normal range when designing stuff, they're just okay with you being that level of uncomfortable.
Like, that's true of all the people designing things that are slightly too small for you but are still usable and safe.
You're in the 80th percentile for height. i.e. not even close to outside the norm. By your first half about 95% percentiles you should fit easily.
https://www2.census.gov/library/publications/2010/compendia/statab/130ed/tables/11s0205.pdf
The secret is noticing how the percentiles go up with age. The FAA's idea of what an average person looks like is probably too short.
(also there's no such thing as an average person, but that's another topic entirely)
Wait fuck that's not what I meant
Making the seat more roomy would also cause some number of seats to be removed. The airlines would rather have a potential 189 people (of which some are uncomfortable) versus having a max passenger count of say ~160-170.
The manufacturers (Boeing, Airbus, Embraer) are the ones that set the safe limits via emergency evacuation testing (everyone out of the plane in 90 seconds, usually done in a pitch-black hanger with a few doors locked to simulate a crash), but the airlines are the ones who actually get to pick the seating configurations. And they are insanely profit driven.
Ignoring the need/desire for bigger seats, I would like to see seats more modularly designed. IE: Rather than your option being 1 or 2 seats, a row could be dynamically switched from a 3 seat setup to a 2 seat setup and then you just pay 1.5.... or whatever. It would require a new seat insert (whatever you call the bench they slide in) but that's not impossible. In theory it wouldn't even have safety impacts.