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Unborking the [Ukraine] discussion

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  • CasualCasual Wiggle Wiggle Wiggle Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    daveNYC wrote: »
    Casual wrote: »
    There's more or less nothing you can do to stop a state level intelligence agency from being able to sneak people across borders. Airport security is designed to stop terrorists and criminals not people with the resources to forge whatever documents they want.

    I wouldn't say the Russians have gotten away with it scot free though. When the Russians murdered an innocent bystander by deploying a bioweapon on British soil in one of their assassination attempts there wasn't a lot we could do about it at the time but we didn't forget about it. It's one of the main reasons why the UK is the first nation to send Ukraine bigger and more powerful weapons. It's why we broke the taboo on sending them MBTs and long range missiles. It's why you don't see the same resistance to sending money and support to Ukraine that you see elsewhere. It's why we acted while France looked for off ramps.

    British bombs and missiles in Ukrainian hands have inflicted a thousand times more damage on the Russians at this point than they did to us. Whatever satisfaction they got from being able to assassinate a few dissidents in the UK it's fair to say at this point it wasn't worth it.

    It's very difficult to stop an enemy state from getting assets into your country, and if their plan is to kill someone and then catch the first flight out they'll probably get away with it. What you need to do is stop the other country from wanting to pull such shenanigans, and I don't think that the future delivery of weaponry to their opponent in the case that the offending country decides to launch a major invasion really does that. I'm not entirely sure what would do that without things getting really ugly, but when you're talking about a country feeling free to off people on your territory things are already pretty ugly.

    The war in Ukraine provided us with a huge opportunity to inflict some pain on Russia but even if it hadn't happened sooner or later there would have been some opportunity to hurt them. Making an outright enemy of another state is rarely consequence free, especially a relatively rich country that builds lots of weapons. Well aside from it being the morally right thing to do in this case, I am very happy for my tax money to be used to show autocrats there are consequences for attacking us.

  • honoverehonovere Registered User regular
    edited February 20
    honovere wrote: »
    All the parliamentary groups of the german government (SPD, Greens, FDP) are putting a motion up for vote in the parliament this week urging the government (Scholz) to send Taurus"long range weapons and ammunition in order to enable Ukraine (...) to make targeted attacks on strategically relevant targets far in the rear of the Russian aggressor, in accordance with international law"

    reaction of the opposition: we're introducing a motion to send long range weapons and ammunition in order to enable Ukraine (...) to make targeted attacks on strategically relevant targets far in the rear of the Russian aggressor, in accordance with international law"Taurus.

    In other news: It's the 10th anniversary of the Maidan protest, especially tomorrow, the 21th is the anniverdary of Agreement on settlement of political crisis in Ukraine over a hundred people have already been shot and killed.
    on the 22nde Janukovitch flees.
    On the 26th a new interim government is formed

    honovere on
  • CrazyPCrazyP Registered User regular
    Putin had just promoted to new rank first deputy commander of Federal Penal Service, who was known to personally oversee Navalny case and sign off extra hard conditions for Navalny imprisonment. As well as a few others high ranked dudes there. Subtle /s
    Source: Here is executive order
    http://publication.pravo.gov.ru/document/0001202402190018

    Meanwhile, people continue to put flowers in memory of Navalny, and police continues to throw them out and arrest people for it. But not even once at any goverment level did anybody say name "Navalny", just talks about "terrorist organization this, unsanctioned rally that".
    "Funniest" incidents so far:
    Putting flowers to monument for political repressions in memory of Navalny is classified as financing terrorist organisation, because peoole give gifts aka flowers...
    Source: local news
    https://t.me/borusio/59075

    Just cowarding out and have police blockade such monument due to "bomb threat" (in Russia nearly every big city has at least one, sadly it did not help...). Well one regional parliament member had written official demand to police to explain its incompetence: suspected area with the bomb has been blockaded for 4 days, preventing civilian traffic, and yeu police not only did not find bomb yet, explosive search and disposal squad has not arrived yet to the scene!
    Source: News aggregator
    https://t.me/horizontal_russia/33380



    We got a new law. Now Russian citizens and companies are forbidden purchasing ads at blogs, social networks, youtube, etc of those declared "foreign agents". Becasu as turns out this label did not cost them drop in audience nor monetary support from companies wishing to make use of said audience. Up to 2 years in prison for breaking it
    Source: Here is the bill
    https://sozd.duma.gov.ru/bill/553750-8

    Out of nowhere police has arrested entire leadership of one of oldest Russian civil rights organizations, that lived through even Stalin era without stopping its activity - The All-Russian Society of Deaf People. Yes, police has arrested heads of largest independent support organization for deaf people. I just... how do this people sleep at night??!!
    Source: official site of the Society
    https://voginfo.ru/vog/2024/02/20/uvazhaemye-kollegi-dorogie-druzja/

    As all this is happening, the only son of Russian Oil oligarch (head of Rosneft) had died. There was precisely zero reporting on it by any goverment own news outlet at any level. Independent media has found out about through facebook post and confirmed it through death registry. Cause of death is "sudden popping of blood vein". Leopards, faces.
    Source: independent Russian media
    https://zona.media/news/2024/02/19/sechin

    Родина вернись домой
  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    Casual wrote: »
    daveNYC wrote: »
    Casual wrote: »
    There's more or less nothing you can do to stop a state level intelligence agency from being able to sneak people across borders. Airport security is designed to stop terrorists and criminals not people with the resources to forge whatever documents they want.

    I wouldn't say the Russians have gotten away with it scot free though. When the Russians murdered an innocent bystander by deploying a bioweapon on British soil in one of their assassination attempts there wasn't a lot we could do about it at the time but we didn't forget about it. It's one of the main reasons why the UK is the first nation to send Ukraine bigger and more powerful weapons. It's why we broke the taboo on sending them MBTs and long range missiles. It's why you don't see the same resistance to sending money and support to Ukraine that you see elsewhere. It's why we acted while France looked for off ramps.

    British bombs and missiles in Ukrainian hands have inflicted a thousand times more damage on the Russians at this point than they did to us. Whatever satisfaction they got from being able to assassinate a few dissidents in the UK it's fair to say at this point it wasn't worth it.

    It's very difficult to stop an enemy state from getting assets into your country, and if their plan is to kill someone and then catch the first flight out they'll probably get away with it. What you need to do is stop the other country from wanting to pull such shenanigans, and I don't think that the future delivery of weaponry to their opponent in the case that the offending country decides to launch a major invasion really does that. I'm not entirely sure what would do that without things getting really ugly, but when you're talking about a country feeling free to off people on your territory things are already pretty ugly.

    The war in Ukraine provided us with a huge opportunity to inflict some pain on Russia but even if it hadn't happened sooner or later there would have been some opportunity to hurt them. Making an outright enemy of another state is rarely consequence free, especially a relatively rich country that builds lots of weapons. Well aside from it being the morally right thing to do in this case, I am very happy for my tax money to be used to show autocrats there are consequences for attacking us.

    Yeah, but is the goal here to hurt them or is it to stop them from killing people in your country. Because even with all the arms shipments, Russia is still doing wetwork in the EU. Same thing with some of the musings about the drip-drip-drip of weaponry to Ukraine over the last two years. Are we trying to grind Russia down, or are we trying to help Ukraine hold and hopefully regain their territory? Those are two different goals that aren't 100% compatible.

    Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
  • enc0reenc0re Registered User regular
    honovere wrote: »
    All the parliamentary groups of the german government (SPD, Greens, FDP) are putting a motion up for vote in the parliament this week urging the government (Scholz) to send Taurus"long range weapons and ammunition in order to enable Ukraine (...) to make targeted attacks on strategically relevant targets far in the rear of the Russian aggressor, in accordance with international law"

    Link please? Ideally something in the German media.

  • FiendishrabbitFiendishrabbit Registered User regular
    enc0re wrote: »
    honovere wrote: »
    All the parliamentary groups of the german government (SPD, Greens, FDP) are putting a motion up for vote in the parliament this week urging the government (Scholz) to send Taurus"long range weapons and ammunition in order to enable Ukraine (...) to make targeted attacks on strategically relevant targets far in the rear of the Russian aggressor, in accordance with international law"

    Link please? Ideally something in the German media.

    The source is Bild, so it's basically tabloid trash.

    "The western world sips from a poisonous cocktail: Polarisation, populism, protectionism and post-truth"
    -Antje Jackelén, Archbishop of the Church of Sweden
  • JasconiusJasconius sword criminal mad onlineRegistered User regular
    tbf even the top tier reporting on what arms ukraine is getting also aren't all that reliable

    still waiting on those f-16s that are due *checks notes* before Christmas 2023

    aaaaaaany minute now

    this is a discord of mostly PA people interested in fighting games: https://discord.gg/DZWa97d5rz

    we also talk about other random shit and clown upon each other
  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    I got a different implication of what you typed, Prohass. If that isn't what you meant, I apologize.

  • honoverehonovere Registered User regular
    enc0re wrote: »
    honovere wrote: »
    All the parliamentary groups of the german government (SPD, Greens, FDP) are putting a motion up for vote in the parliament this week urging the government (Scholz) to send Taurus"long range weapons and ammunition in order to enable Ukraine (...) to make targeted attacks on strategically relevant targets far in the rear of the Russian aggressor, in accordance with international law"

    Link please? Ideally something in the German media.

    https://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/ampel-fraktionen-wollen-weitere-waffenlieferungen-fuer-die-ukraine-a-28ebea5b-9040-4924-807f-4ef04558f664

    https://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/taurus-lieferung-ukraine-olaf-scholz-marie-agnes-strack-zimmermann-1.6378917

    Lots more of that around without having to resort to Bild

  • honoverehonovere Registered User regular
    Jasconius wrote: »
    tbf even the top tier reporting on what arms ukraine is getting also aren't all that reliable

    still waiting on those f-16s that are due *checks notes* before Christmas 2023

    aaaaaaany minute now

    I can't remember any serious reports about that saying 2023. It was always spring 24 earliest. Everything else was wishlisting. Alot of it in this thread, too.

  • spool32spool32 Contrary Library Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Mill wrote: »
    Wonder if that shit is going to give other countries more motivation to start fucking with Russia's shit. Sure Maksim Kuzminov wasn't one of their citizens, but assassination shit like that outside of one's borders, against someone that likely wasn't going to do anything more that involves Russian interests, is pretty blatant disregard for international norms or respecting the sovereignty of other countries.

    Russia has been doing this for years. Brazenly.

    They assassinated someone within blocks of the white House.

  • enc0reenc0re Registered User regular
    honovere wrote: »
    enc0re wrote: »
    honovere wrote: »
    All the parliamentary groups of the german government (SPD, Greens, FDP) are putting a motion up for vote in the parliament this week urging the government (Scholz) to send Taurus"long range weapons and ammunition in order to enable Ukraine (...) to make targeted attacks on strategically relevant targets far in the rear of the Russian aggressor, in accordance with international law"

    Link please? Ideally something in the German media.

    https://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/ampel-fraktionen-wollen-weitere-waffenlieferungen-fuer-die-ukraine-a-28ebea5b-9040-4924-807f-4ef04558f664

    https://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/taurus-lieferung-ukraine-olaf-scholz-marie-agnes-strack-zimmermann-1.6378917

    Lots more of that around without having to resort to Bild

    Thank you. For some reason I couldn’t find that article in Der Spiegel. I was looking for precise words because Taurus has a 500km range. While the system isn’t specifically named in the parliamentary resolution, Der Spiegel says that the resolution will call for weapons that allow striking targets in Russia.

    It is my understanding that up to this point Western systems always came with the restriction that they could only strike inside Ukraine’s borders.

  • hiraethhiraeth SpaceRegistered User regular
    https://kyivindependent.com/avdiivka-defenders-forced-to-leave-wounded-behind-escape-encirclement-by-foot/
    The withdrawal from Avdiivka was late and disorganized, forcing many soldiers to make their escape by foot, under heavy shelling, four servicemen with Ukraine’s 110th Separate Mechanized Brigade, a large unit that manned the defense of Avdiivka and its outskirts, told the Kyiv Independent.

  • SpectrumSpectrum Archer of Inferno Chaldea Rec RoomRegistered User regular
    2/20 Ukrainian milvlogging tl;dw Coverage of some of the action heating up around Bakhmut. Ukranian helicopter success near Klishchiivka and continuing Russian efforts to grind their way towards Chasiv Yar.

    XNnw6Gk.jpg
  • honoverehonovere Registered User regular
    edited February 21
    The first four Ukrainian pilots are scheduled to complete training on F-16 fighter jets by summer, according to the Arizona National Guard. The pilots began training in mid-October with the 162nd Fighter Wing in Tucson, Arizona. The Pentagon said the training process would take several months to complete.

    A second group of another four pilots began training in January, according to Capt. Erin Hannigan, a spokeswoman for the Arizona National Guard, while a third group of four is currently going through English-language training, which is required to fly the fourth-generation US fighter jet.

    All of the pilots are expected to complete their training between May and August, said Hannigan, though the exact timeline depends on the progress of the program.

    Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky requested F-16 fighters for months, believing the advanced US jets would be able to challenge Russia's aerial power over the battlefield.

    Last summer, a coalition of nations led by Denmark began training Ukrainian pilots on the US jets. The Netherlands, Denmark and Norway have pledged to provide Ukraine with the F-16s jets after the training program. The US also committed to approving the transfer of the jets as soon as training was completed.
    https://edition.cnn.com/europe/live-news/russia-ukraine-war-news-02-20-24/index.html

    also Ukraine claims to have shot down another Su-34. That's now 7 jets within a week, I think

    honovere on
  • [Expletive deleted][Expletive deleted] The mediocre doctor NorwayRegistered User regular
    enc0re wrote: »
    honovere wrote: »
    enc0re wrote: »
    honovere wrote: »
    All the parliamentary groups of the german government (SPD, Greens, FDP) are putting a motion up for vote in the parliament this week urging the government (Scholz) to send Taurus"long range weapons and ammunition in order to enable Ukraine (...) to make targeted attacks on strategically relevant targets far in the rear of the Russian aggressor, in accordance with international law"

    Link please? Ideally something in the German media.

    https://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/ampel-fraktionen-wollen-weitere-waffenlieferungen-fuer-die-ukraine-a-28ebea5b-9040-4924-807f-4ef04558f664

    https://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/taurus-lieferung-ukraine-olaf-scholz-marie-agnes-strack-zimmermann-1.6378917

    Lots more of that around without having to resort to Bild

    Thank you. For some reason I couldn’t find that article in Der Spiegel. I was looking for precise words because Taurus has a 500km range. While the system isn’t specifically named in the parliamentary resolution, Der Spiegel says that the resolution will call for weapons that allow striking targets in Russia.

    It is my understanding that up to this point Western systems always came with the restriction that they could only strike inside Ukraine’s borders.

    The devil is in the details here. Does the resolution specifically call for weapons capable of striking Russia, or does the resolution call for weapons (that coincidentally are capable of striking Russia)?

    The former, the Germans want Ukraine to (be able to) strike Russia; the latter the Germans want the Ukrainians to have good modern weapons (and promise not to use them to strike Russia).

    Sic transit gloria mundi.
  • HappylilElfHappylilElf Registered User regular
    enc0re wrote: »
    honovere wrote: »
    enc0re wrote: »
    honovere wrote: »
    All the parliamentary groups of the german government (SPD, Greens, FDP) are putting a motion up for vote in the parliament this week urging the government (Scholz) to send Taurus"long range weapons and ammunition in order to enable Ukraine (...) to make targeted attacks on strategically relevant targets far in the rear of the Russian aggressor, in accordance with international law"

    Link please? Ideally something in the German media.

    https://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/ampel-fraktionen-wollen-weitere-waffenlieferungen-fuer-die-ukraine-a-28ebea5b-9040-4924-807f-4ef04558f664

    https://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/taurus-lieferung-ukraine-olaf-scholz-marie-agnes-strack-zimmermann-1.6378917

    Lots more of that around without having to resort to Bild

    Thank you. For some reason I couldn’t find that article in Der Spiegel. I was looking for precise words because Taurus has a 500km range. While the system isn’t specifically named in the parliamentary resolution, Der Spiegel says that the resolution will call for weapons that allow striking targets in Russia.

    It is my understanding that up to this point Western systems always came with the restriction that they could only strike inside Ukraine’s borders.

    The devil is in the details here. Does the resolution specifically call for weapons capable of striking Russia, or does the resolution call for weapons (that coincidentally are capable of striking Russia)?

    The former, the Germans want Ukraine to (be able to) strike Russia; the latter the Germans want the Ukrainians to have good modern weapons (and promise not to use them to strike Russia).

    That's kinda key imo

    Ukraine has already been provided with weapons very capable of striking targets in Russia but only on the condition that they pinky swear to not use them for that.

  • honoverehonovere Registered User regular
    It's a bit vague (probably mostly because the SPD, as they are also the reason the name Taurus doesn't show up)
    https://assets.ctfassets.net/mj324dykhxwi/7M9WwUTs49BtWwz5zn3npK/e8d720a23419ab0bdd9497cc0fd3ee89/Antrag_der_Ampel-Fraktionen_zur_Verteidigung_der_Ukraine.pdf

    Just says long rang weapons that allow to strike strategically relevant targets in the far rear of the russian aggressor in concordance with international law.

  • [Expletive deleted][Expletive deleted] The mediocre doctor NorwayRegistered User regular
    honovere wrote: »
    It's a bit vague (probably mostly because the SPD, as they are also the reason the name Taurus doesn't show up)
    https://assets.ctfassets.net/mj324dykhxwi/7M9WwUTs49BtWwz5zn3npK/e8d720a23419ab0bdd9497cc0fd3ee89/Antrag_der_Ampel-Fraktionen_zur_Verteidigung_der_Ukraine.pdf

    Just says long rang weapons that allow to strike strategically relevant targets in the far rear of the russian aggressor in concordance with international law.

    I interpret that as "weapons that can shoot into Russia, but you (i.e., Ukraine) promise not to".

    Sic transit gloria mundi.
  • CrazyPCrazyP Registered User regular
    Russian leadership in a nutshell

    Putin: I got report from field commander that we had taken village Krynki in Kherson

    Shoigu: Ah, yes mr President! We had took it over, this is actually super important village, this act had finally put a stop to Ukranina counter offensive
    Source: Kremlin news, you can listen to both of them speaking
    https://t.me/news_kremlin/3180

    Russian mil bloggers: Eh, what? But we (Russian army) are still fighting over it.

    Ukraine: This is all a lie. We are still holding the line
    https://t.me/SJTF_Odes/6428


    Speaking of which, news about suicide of Russian mil blogger that had posted of Russian ammo shortages and army losing 16k man dead and 300 vehicles. Which had enraged propaganda, with propagandists calling him a traitor and demanding his arrest.
    Source: Russian BBC, quoting multiple Z-channels
    https://t.me/bbcrussian/60984

    Родина вернись домой
  • JuggernutJuggernut Registered User regular
    hiraeth wrote: »
    https://kyivindependent.com/avdiivka-defenders-forced-to-leave-wounded-behind-escape-encirclement-by-foot/
    The withdrawal from Avdiivka was late and disorganized, forcing many soldiers to make their escape by foot, under heavy shelling, four servicemen with Ukraine’s 110th Separate Mechanized Brigade, a large unit that manned the defense of Avdiivka and its outskirts, told the Kyiv Independent.

    This is the vibe I was getting. It felt like a very skin of their teeth withdrawal. Possibly only a few hours from complete encirclement kind of withdrawal.

    I really hope they used that time to create active defensive lines towards Chasiv Yar and Robotyne. The good news is Russia is bleeding Shukhois like woah. If this keeps up we might actually see a real reversal of air superiority by the time F-16s arrive. Unless Russia is still got enough air defense coverage and working S-300/400s they're gonna be experiencing a world of AGM sponsored hate and its gonna be a treat.

  • V1mV1m Registered User regular
    Russia is not going to run out of AA launchers. They built an unfathomable number of them.

  • ButtersButters A glass of some milks Registered User regular
    V1m wrote: »
    Russia is not going to run out of AA launchers. They built an unfathomable number of them.

    70% of anything they mass produced is unworkable garbage that's best used for spare parts for the other 30%. Russia can run out of anything hence the usage of mid 20th century vehicles and turn of the 19th century small arms.

    PSN: idontworkhere582 | CFN: idontworkhere | Steam: lordbutters | Amazon Wishlist
  • TynnanTynnan seldom correct, never unsure Registered User regular
    Butters wrote: »
    V1m wrote: »
    Russia is not going to run out of AA launchers. They built an unfathomable number of them.

    70% of anything they mass produced is unworkable garbage that's best used for spare parts for the other 30%. Russia can run out of anything hence the usage of mid 20th century vehicles and turn of the 19th century small arms.

    I do not think that this is true for Russian anti-aircraft missile systems.

  • GnizmoGnizmo Registered User regular
    V1m wrote: »
    Russia is not going to run out of AA launchers. They built an unfathomable number of them.

    Very true, but they might run out of people who can operate them effectively. Their AA stuff has been made to look terrible more than a few times this war.

  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    From what I remember from earlier in the war, the Russian systems seem to be designed so that they can be operated at a basic level of competency pretty quickly with minimal training. Flip side of that is that if things go off script of get weird it's harder for the crew to adapt unless they're really on the ball, which... Russia. Might get some more friendly fire happening at least. Other problem is that the Russian Air Force actually has equipment that generally performs as advertised, so with the number of F-16s that Ukraine will (hopefully) be getting, I don't see them being able to go up against Russia at the moment and take control of the skys.

    Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
  • JasconiusJasconius sword criminal mad onlineRegistered User regular
    it just depends on what missiles the F-16s get... im not as familiar with the russian planes but the F-16 comes in certain trims that are just loaded to the gills in both attack and defense capacity

    ultra long range radar missiles, accurate defensive radars, missile lock detection, IR countermeasures

    its just... if the last 2 years are any indicator then they will probably not get the sweet tech and just a tube with wings and some missile interception stuff, making it an airborne patriot battery and a photo op

    this is a discord of mostly PA people interested in fighting games: https://discord.gg/DZWa97d5rz

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  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    I would imagine even they already had the F-16s the delay will be on the American government unfucking itself, since we have all the excess fun toys for the F-16

  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    Jasconius wrote: »
    it just depends on what missiles the F-16s get... im not as familiar with the russian planes but the F-16 comes in certain trims that are just loaded to the gills in both attack and defense capacity

    ultra long range radar missiles, accurate defensive radars, missile lock detection, IR countermeasures

    its just... if the last 2 years are any indicator then they will probably not get the sweet tech and just a tube with wings and some missile interception stuff, making it an airborne patriot battery and a photo op

    Dunno, the F-16 isn't exactly stealthy, to say the least, and Russia has stuff that on-paper is similar to what the USA can produce. Don't know if the stated capabilities actually show up in the real world, but the Russian Air Force hasn't been the same sort of garbage fire as their Army and Navy have shown up as, so I'd be real careful about pushing things on that particular front.

    I do think that F-16's will curtail the Black Sea Fleet's surface activity even more than what's already been done with the drone attacks.

    Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    daveNYC wrote: »
    Jasconius wrote: »
    it just depends on what missiles the F-16s get... im not as familiar with the russian planes but the F-16 comes in certain trims that are just loaded to the gills in both attack and defense capacity

    ultra long range radar missiles, accurate defensive radars, missile lock detection, IR countermeasures

    its just... if the last 2 years are any indicator then they will probably not get the sweet tech and just a tube with wings and some missile interception stuff, making it an airborne patriot battery and a photo op

    Dunno, the F-16 isn't exactly stealthy, to say the least, and Russia has stuff that on-paper is similar to what the USA can produce. Don't know if the stated capabilities actually show up in the real world, but the Russian Air Force hasn't been the same sort of garbage fire as their Army and Navy have shown up as, so I'd be real careful about pushing things on that particular front.

    I do think that F-16's will curtail the Black Sea Fleet's surface activity even more than what's already been done with the drone attacks.

    It's worth noting that Russia has made very limited use of their airforce for the most part owing to the fact that very early on they understood that they don't have the air supperiority to do routine strikes inside of Ukraine.

    As to direct air engagements.... this is a tough one, since I'm not sure when the last time a russian actually engaged in air to air combat so it's not like they have a lot of expierience to draw on let alone practical understanding of how to engage an F16. On the other hand, the Ukrainians would be piloting a wholly new airframe to them which is 50 years old So russia should have planes that have the advantage on it in terms of raw performance.

  • honoverehonovere Registered User regular
    It's also not exactly new planes. All the ones Denmark and the Netherlands have/had are from the 1980s or so. F16 A/B. They all had the Mid Life Update at least though.

  • enc0reenc0re Registered User regular
    honovere wrote: »
    It's a bit vague (probably mostly because the SPD, as they are also the reason the name Taurus doesn't show up)
    https://assets.ctfassets.net/mj324dykhxwi/7M9WwUTs49BtWwz5zn3npK/e8d720a23419ab0bdd9497cc0fd3ee89/Antrag_der_Ampel-Fraktionen_zur_Verteidigung_der_Ukraine.pdf

    Just says long rang weapons that allow to strike strategically relevant targets in the far rear of the russian aggressor in concordance with international law.

    I interpret that as "weapons that can shoot into Russia, but you (i.e., Ukraine) promise not to".

    I disagree. Here are my translations of the two IMHO relevant parts. I consider this to be an all but explicit call for weapons to strike targets within Russia.
    Insbesondere muss die Ukraine auch künftig in die Lage versetzt werden, Angriffe auf militärische Ziele wie Munitionsdepots, Versorgungsrouten und Kommandoposten weit hinter den Frontlinien durchzuführen und ihre Soldatinnen und Soldaten vor den vielgestaltigen Attacken des russischen Militärs bestmöglich schützen zu können. Der Bundestag begrüßt daher die Lieferungen von Lenkflugkörpern unserer französischen und britischen Partner an die Ukraine. Der Einsatz von präzisen Abstandswaffen zur Landesverteidigung ist mit dem Völkerrecht vereinbar und für den Schutz der Ukraine unverzichtbar.

    In particular going forward Ukraine must also be put in the position to execute attacks on military targets such as munitions depots, supply lines, and command posts far behind the front lines and to be able to protect as well as possible its soldiers against the manifold attacks of the Russian military. The lower house therefore welcomes the deliveries of guided missiles of our French and British partners to the Ukraine. The use of precise stand-off weapons for territorial defense is consistent with international law and unavoidable for the protection of the Ukraine.
    Der Deutsche Bundestag fordert die Bundesregierung unter Einhaltung der haushälterischen Vorgaben auf, [...] die in der Sicherheitsvereinbarung vom 16.02.2024 bekundete langfristige militärische Unterstützung für die ukrainischen Sicherheits- und Verteidigungskräfte bereitzustellen, um die territoriale Unversehrtheit der Ukraine innerhalb ihrer international anerkannten Grenzen in vollem Umfang wiederherzustellen, dies beinhaltet die Lieferung von zusätzlich erforderlichen weitreichenden Waffensystemen und Munition, um die Ukraine einerseits in die Lage zu versetzten, völkerrechtskonforme, gezielte Angriffe auf strategisch relevante Ziele weit im rückwärtigen Bereich des russischen Aggressors zu ermöglichen und andererseits die Landstreitkräfte mit der Lieferung von gepanzerten Kampfsystemen und geschützten Fahrzeugen weiter zu stärken; dabei ist bei Abgabe aus den Beständen der Bundeswehr eine sofortige Nachbeschaffung einzuleiten

    The German lower house asks the government while maintaining budget requirements to, [...] make available the long-term military support for the Ukrainian security and defense forces announced at the security agreement on 02/16/2024 to fully restore the territorial integrity of the Ukraine within its internationally recognized borders, which incorporates the delivery of additionally necessary long-range weapons systems and munitions, to on the one hand put the Ukraine into the position to enable aimed attacks consistent with international law against strategically relevant targets far in the rearward area of the Russian aggressor and on the other hand to further strengthen the territorial combat forces with the delivery of armored combat systems and protected vehicles; in the process there is to be initiated an immediate reorder in case of transfers from stocks of the German armed forces.

  • honoverehonovere Registered User regular
    Thanks for the translation. When I posted it I wanted to do a quick Google translate, too. But apparently that has also gone to shit? Was just missing complete strings of words and the rest was just useless, too

  • SafetyStickReturnsSafetyStickReturns Registered User regular
    honovere wrote: »
    It's also not exactly new planes. All the ones Denmark and the Netherlands have/had are from the 1980s or so. F16 A/B. They all had the Mid Life Update at least though.

    Yeah, all basically up to a Block 50 standard. Good enough, though lacking nicities that the 60's and 70's have such as AESA radar and FLIR which would really be handy.

    What it really gets though is an aircraft with sufficient horsepower in its mission computer to fully utilise NATO air-ground smart weapons rather than the limited "get-you-by" set-ups that have been (admitedly impressively) achieved on MiG-29 and SU-25.

  • TraceTrace GNU Terry Pratchett; GNU Gus; GNU Carrie Fisher; GNU Adam We Registered User regular
    Juggernut wrote: »
    hiraeth wrote: »
    https://kyivindependent.com/avdiivka-defenders-forced-to-leave-wounded-behind-escape-encirclement-by-foot/
    The withdrawal from Avdiivka was late and disorganized, forcing many soldiers to make their escape by foot, under heavy shelling, four servicemen with Ukraine’s 110th Separate Mechanized Brigade, a large unit that manned the defense of Avdiivka and its outskirts, told the Kyiv Independent.

    This is the vibe I was getting. It felt like a very skin of their teeth withdrawal. Possibly only a few hours from complete encirclement kind of withdrawal.

    I really hope they used that time to create active defensive lines towards Chasiv Yar and Robotyne. The good news is Russia is bleeding Shukhois like woah. If this keeps up we might actually see a real reversal of air superiority by the time F-16s arrive. Unless Russia is still got enough air defense coverage and working S-300/400s they're gonna be experiencing a world of AGM sponsored hate and its gonna be a treat.

    I'm starting to think Zaluzhnyi was the person insisting on defending Avdiivka cause the moment he was gone Ukraine basically immediately started pulling out as fast as reasonably possible from there. Which still wasn't fast enough unfortunately.

  • SpectrumSpectrum Archer of Inferno Chaldea Rec RoomRegistered User regular
    2/21 Ukrainian milvlogging tl;dw Ukrainian efforts to keep their toehold on Krynky in the face of premature declarations of Russian success in the area and successful HIMARS strikes on some really stupid Russian force concentrations in the area.

    XNnw6Gk.jpg
  • honoverehonovere Registered User regular
    edited February 22
    Germany and Czechia are in talks for another "Ringtausch" where Germany supplies countries with western materiel to replace materiel those countries send to Ukraine.

    In this case Germany would send 14 Leopards 2A4 to Czechia who would send T72s to Ukraine. Why not send those Leopards to Ukraine dierectly? Apparently these are the ones that Switzerland sold to Germany under the condition that they couldn't be re-exported to Ukraine.

    And Canada is also in talks with Czechia, in this case about financing the the 800 thousand artillery ammunitions Czechia has said could be delivered within weeks with appropriate fiancing
    https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/ukraine-russia-canada-artillery-shells-1.7120329

    edit: If anyone wants to know how German parliament discussing the Ukraine support looks like, it's currently here in this live stream:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGv7y74zONw

    honovere on
  • Alistair HuttonAlistair Hutton Dr EdinburghRegistered User regular
    Trace wrote: »
    Juggernut wrote: »
    hiraeth wrote: »
    https://kyivindependent.com/avdiivka-defenders-forced-to-leave-wounded-behind-escape-encirclement-by-foot/
    The withdrawal from Avdiivka was late and disorganized, forcing many soldiers to make their escape by foot, under heavy shelling, four servicemen with Ukraine’s 110th Separate Mechanized Brigade, a large unit that manned the defense of Avdiivka and its outskirts, told the Kyiv Independent.

    This is the vibe I was getting. It felt like a very skin of their teeth withdrawal. Possibly only a few hours from complete encirclement kind of withdrawal.

    I really hope they used that time to create active defensive lines towards Chasiv Yar and Robotyne. The good news is Russia is bleeding Shukhois like woah. If this keeps up we might actually see a real reversal of air superiority by the time F-16s arrive. Unless Russia is still got enough air defense coverage and working S-300/400s they're gonna be experiencing a world of AGM sponsored hate and its gonna be a treat.

    I'm starting to think Zaluzhnyi was the person insisting on defending Avdiivka cause the moment he was gone Ukraine basically immediately started pulling out as fast as reasonably possible from there. Which still wasn't fast enough unfortunately.

    The two biggest points of conflict between Zaluzhnyi and Zelensky that have been reported over the last year were Zaluzhnyi's desire for a mobilisation order and to withdraw troops to more defendable lines giving up territory.

    Having to withdraw for Avdiivka was a simple reality enforced by the potential full encirclement and nothing to do with the change of command. Eventually the necessity of a draft will also come and likewise will have nothing to do with the new management.

    I have a thoughtful and infrequently updated blog about games http://whatithinkaboutwhenithinkaboutgames.wordpress.com/

    I made a game, it has penguins in it. It's pay what you like on Gumroad.

    Currently Ebaying Nothing at all but I might do in the future.
  • MonwynMonwyn Apathy's a tragedy, and boredom is a crime. A little bit of everything, all of the time.Registered User regular
    Butters wrote: »
    V1m wrote: »
    Russia is not going to run out of AA launchers. They built an unfathomable number of them.

    70% of anything they mass produced is unworkable garbage that's best used for spare parts for the other 30%. Russia can run out of anything hence the usage of mid 20th century vehicles and turn of the 19th century small arms.

    AA systems were critical to Russian nuclear defense in a way their infantry and armored equipment never were. I'd be surprised if they weren't prioritized over making sure all the BMPs had tires.

    uH3IcEi.png
  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited February 22
    Monwyn wrote: »
    Butters wrote: »
    V1m wrote: »
    Russia is not going to run out of AA launchers. They built an unfathomable number of them.

    70% of anything they mass produced is unworkable garbage that's best used for spare parts for the other 30%. Russia can run out of anything hence the usage of mid 20th century vehicles and turn of the 19th century small arms.

    AA systems were critical to Russian nuclear defense in a way their infantry and armored equipment never were. I'd be surprised if they weren't prioritized over making sure all the BMPs had tires.

    Russian AA has severely underperformed expectations during this war as well, even if it is much better maintained than their armored vehicles

    That bald smug patriot guy on youtube said that it's likely they're running into the same problems the US had with patriot decades ago

    override367 on
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