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Unborking the [RvW/Dobbs Abortion] Discussion
MorganV
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
Like the Ukraine thread currently being bugged to oblivion and revised, doing the same here, because I think this is important.
"Oh, they wouldn't go that far! It's just hyperbole. They're not that crazy, at least not enough for it to matter." - People prior to Dobbs.
"Yeah, they went that far, but they're not going to go further. That'd be absurd." - Way too many people, post Dobbs.
Yes, yes they are.
https://mynbc15.com/news/local/alabama-supreme-court-rules-in-vitro-embryos-are-children
"Alabama Supreme court rules in-vitro embryos are children"
This appears to only currently relate to civil liability, but given it went 8-1, how long until it moves to a criminal concern?
Even being civil, that's probably the end of IVF in Alabama. The legal liabilities are going to make premiums, if not impossible to get insurance, so expensive I can't imagine most of them will persist under this ruling.
And you KNOW the smug fucks responsible for the ruling will have fucked up views on fertility. That if someone can't get pregnant, that's "god's will". Also, almost certainly the woman's fault.
The part I don't get, is this looks like it started out as a lawsuit by people participating in the IVF program who had their programs disrupted, pushing for a bigger payout. So good job, you've just fucked every other couple with fertility problems.
"Oh, they wouldn't go that far! It's just hyperbole. They're not that crazy, at least not enough for it to matter." - People prior to Dobbs.
"Yeah, they went that far, but they're not going to go further. That'd be absurd." - Way too many people, post Dobbs.
Yes, yes they are.
https://mynbc15.com/news/local/alabama-supreme-court-rules-in-vitro-embryos-are-children
"Alabama Supreme court rules in-vitro embryos are children"
The foundation of the lawsuit hinged on the legal definition of a cryopreserved embryo. Initially, the couples claimed their embryos should be considered people. The lower court then ruled they were not, for purposes of Alabama’s wrongful death statute.
The 8-1 decision today declares “the Wrongful Death of a Minor Act applies to all unborn children, regardless of their location.”
This appears to only currently relate to civil liability, but given it went 8-1, how long until it moves to a criminal concern?
Even being civil, that's probably the end of IVF in Alabama. The legal liabilities are going to make premiums, if not impossible to get insurance, so expensive I can't imagine most of them will persist under this ruling.
And you KNOW the smug fucks responsible for the ruling will have fucked up views on fertility. That if someone can't get pregnant, that's "god's will". Also, almost certainly the woman's fault.
The part I don't get, is this looks like it started out as a lawsuit by people participating in the IVF program who had their programs disrupted, pushing for a bigger payout. So good job, you've just fucked every other couple with fertility problems.
+15
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I feel Moses ben Maimon's spirit wants to travel through time, possess the bas relief of himself in the US Capitol, travel to Alabama, and beat the shit out of these people with the Talmud.
~ Buckaroo Banzai
Nah, they'd have to wait their turn, since he pre-dates them by 700 years. Jefferson and Franklin both read him, I'm sure they wouldn't mind queueing behind him.
~ Buckaroo Banzai
They had their frozen embryos accidentally destroyed by a wandering patient at the clinic. Depending on their thoughts, beliefs, and feelings regarding those embryos, the couples in question might genuinely be grieving those losses as if they were children - much like some people grieve a miscarriage as "losing a child" and others don't. I doubt they were thinking much about the long-term effects on IVF in Alabama
Does anyone know what the alternative would be to a Wrongful Death lawsuit in this case? I assume some sort of medical negligence, since allowing people's embryos to be destroyed in your facility is a big yikes.
Republicans just don't think that human beings should care for each other.
The alternative would probably be the dollar value of them, which would encompass the medical procedure and treatment. It'd actually probably be fairly high and fairly easily to at least recoupe what made it onto medical billing paperwork, which would be what is done with pets or livestock which are probably similar in some ways and upsetting to use as comparison in others.
Like… a standard breach of contract and damage to property.
The way that the act has been interpreted means that each embryo, of which there can be a lot (because you don’t just freeze one) is valued as if it lives to the end of the life of the parent in terms of damages.
Which is fucking ridiculous.
Yeah, I'm not arguing that the ruling is anything but awful; just that the suit itself probably came from an emotional place, which is understandable.
Hospitals are going to love (read: hate) this kind of shit. Medicaid pays for 42% of births in America and I'm sure hospitals still like getting money.
some real bold-strategy-cotton energy here
the sheer arrogance of these colossal meatheads. The true purpose of sex, that only they are the arbiters of. The towering hubris of these fuckers, whose states and churches and organisations are awash in "purposeless" sex, just the kind that keeps them in control and women and the other under heel. Even if they werent hypocrites it would still be wrong and evil, and yet i can almost guarantee every one of these fuckers has also had mistresses, pressured abortions, divorces, and had "consequence-less (for them)" sex
They already won all the elections they needed to, but they need to get it done before Thomas and Alito drop dead.
Even halting the procedure, what sort of effect does this have on sample retention policy? A third party long term storage facility is going to be hesitant to accept this sort of material now and keeping it at a university is just a matter of time until the CSU fails after someone forgot to pay the monitoring SaaS bill.
I'd guess that they'd be looking at ways to move all stored embryos out of state somehow. Anything else would be setting themselves up for a few hundred counts of manslaughter if anything goes wrong.
That's human trafficking.
There is no rational way to deal with irrational rulings
Of minors even... maybe you can game some census stuff for giggles but otherwise it's a whole bag of stupid.
A political party based purely on malice
Depends very much on how child endangerment is defined. Having the embryos frozen is the correct way to store them. In the same way, "storing" a fetus inside the womb is appropriate care for "children" at that stage of development, but not for, e.g., a 10-year-old.
Edit: I'm aware I'm trying to impart logic where none exists.
The flaws in this ruling are more obvious than the big glowing red weak spots on video game bosses. At no point did any of these chuckleheads actually stop to fire off a single neuron before smugly passing this down.
Freeze them embryos. Claim 200 dependents. It's the one trick doctors don't want you to know!
I mean like I know people with frozen embryos out there that are no longer capable of carrying children (had IVF, had baby, complications in birth prevented future viable pregnancy).
So, um, what happens then? Like there’s frozen embryos that neither parent can even theoretically carry?
...I guess the cynical view would be that that's actually how a lot of people think, not just fascists. Even a majority if we soften it to the naive 'laws are for bad people, obviously we don't punish a good person who falls afoul of a technicality' version.
child support payments frozen embryo foster care?
Endangerment usually falls under neglect. Neglect is defined as putting the kid in circumstances beyond their expected ability to cope. It could still apply here with this stupid ruling, but it would be more dumb shit.
No. Or at least not yet. The ruling is specific to civil claims of damage due to the death of a minor.
*-As long as I'm wishing to live in said universe I might as well wish for it to come with warp drive and magic wands.
You'll be fascinated to learn that the Alabama senate will indeed be considering a carve out for IVF treatment.
Like that classic article, The only moral abortion is my abortion.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.