Most of my local stores have no issue, people have a vague “what’s everyone doing” discussion and then if someone guessed wrong everyone adjusts a bit for the next game. And like Munkus said you just avoid people who are going to be shits and move on.
The funny thing about the sol ring issue to me is that you basically don't have anything that breaks even on mana. You have fast mana rocks, that produce extra. And then almost everything else produces less than it costs. (The exceptions are just Basalt Monolith and mana dorks, basically). WotC definitely realized very quickly that fast mana is silly, but Sol Ring was just... allowed to be played for so long and then reprinted in everything...
My bet would be Wizards is totally going to revert the bans for “top” tier (not you Nadu). They knew what they were doing when they designed lotus.
The tiers idea sounds terrible to me. Probably going to encourage people stomping with “teir D” decks or whatever. Also people want to play with their dumb old cards, I’ve seen plenty of decks with tutors or fast mana that are just going to ramp/tutor into dumb goofy stuff.
Looking forward to discussing that my tier C deck is also a 7 (for that tier)
Yeah I'd give good odds that the tiers will be a fig leaf to unban a bunch of chase cards, including Jeweled Lotus.
While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
+1
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Fast mana everyone can afford with sofa change is a different animal than 200 dollar fast mana.
Styrofoam Sammich on
+12
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Fast mana everyone can afford with sofa change is a different animal than 200 dollar fast mana.
Also the difference in one mana and zero mana is gigantic
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
+6
Zavianuniversal peace sounds better than forever warRegistered Userregular
I do wish there was more of a clear division between 'casual commander' and 'competitive commander'. all the events near me are billed as 'casual commander', and 90% of the players bring 'casual' decks, and only one or two people bring decks with super expensive cards/infinite combos. but the 'casual' billing doesnt seem to have any meaning really, and there's never any alternative 'competitive' events listed. I guess that's on the local game stores for only running 'casual' events, maybe there just aren't enough 'competitive' commander players, but it does kind of suck when you go to a casual commander game and get people who win on the first few turns because of some crazy expensive deck
Honestly I’d be down for “lotus is banned for being 100+ dollars and that sending the wrong message about a casual format”. That’s the reasoning the RC used to have posted for the original power 9 bans. No way wizards is going to make that call on any non-reserve list card anyway. They don’t even like to acknowledge that cards have prices.
Honestly I’d be down for “lotus is banned for being 100+ dollars and that sending the wrong message about a casual format”. That’s the reasoning the RC used to have posted for the original power 9 bans. No way wizards is going to make that call on any non-reserve list card anyway. They don’t even like to acknowledge that cards have prices.
There's currently 83 cards legal in commander that cost over $100. The most expensive is Timetwister at $6500. Excluding the Reserved List, there are only 8, the most expensive is P3K's Zodiac Dragon at $500, and the only one not from P3K is Edgar Markov. Which is to say, banning the reserved list almost entirely removes $100+ cards from the format.
Honestly I’d be down for “lotus is banned for being 100+ dollars and that sending the wrong message about a casual format”. That’s the reasoning the RC used to have posted for the original power 9 bans. No way wizards is going to make that call on any non-reserve list card anyway. They don’t even like to acknowledge that cards have prices.
There's currently 83 cards legal in commander that cost over $100. The most expensive is Timetwister at $6500. Excluding the Reserved List, there are only 8, the most expensive is P3K's Zodiac Dragon at $500, and the only one not from P3K is Edgar Markov. Which is to say, banning the reserved list almost entirely removes $100+ cards from the format.
For a second there I thought you were talking about Edgar, Charmed Groom (because I forgot the original existed) and was very confused.
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Honestly I’d be down for “lotus is banned for being 100+ dollars and that sending the wrong message about a casual format”. That’s the reasoning the RC used to have posted for the original power 9 bans. No way wizards is going to make that call on any non-reserve list card anyway. They don’t even like to acknowledge that cards have prices.
There's currently 83 cards legal in commander that cost over $100. The most expensive is Timetwister at $6500. Excluding the Reserved List, there are only 8, the most expensive is P3K's Zodiac Dragon at $500, and the only one not from P3K is Edgar Markov. Which is to say, banning the reserved list almost entirely removes $100+ cards from the format.
For a second there I thought you were talking about Edgar, Charmed Groom (because I forgot the original existed) and was very confused.
Edgar Markov is stupid expensive because he is one of the best vampire commanders with a limited printing. I was confused as well when I first heard people talking about it, because Charmed Groom uh….isnt worth that much at ALL.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
I strongly feel wotc cannot unban any of the 4 recently banned cards for any reason, no matter how much they want to for at least a year. You can say "don't send death threats" all you want, but if sending death threats gives the people doing it what they want, what lesson are they learning from that?
My friend is working on a roguelike game you can play if you want to. (It has free demo)
I strongly feel wotc cannot unban any of the 4 recently banned cards for any reason, no matter how much they want to for at least a year. You can say "don't send death threats" all you want, but if sending death threats gives the people doing it what they want, what lesson are they learning from that?
Sure but they aren't known for great or consistent decision making. And there will be pressure from the business side to keep the finance bros happy. I could totally see them being like "with this change and the new tier system we have done a review of the whole ban list" and unban a bunch of older power level band like Golos and also a couple of the 4.
While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
Golos was less a power level ban and more a "this is the epitome of the design issues with colorless 5C commanders" ban, and I would seriously doubt it ever gets unbanned considering WotC has mostly moved away from those sorts of designs now even as they try to keep a 5C commander in sets every so often.
E: To put it another way, regardless of how you feel about the disruption caused by the initial Golos ban, it is a card design that would never get made today and sucks, and it only costs a buck to buy a copy right now. There is no upside to unbanning it at this point for basically anybody. It's the same reason Modern has so many bans that don't make a lot of sense nowadays; Punishing Fire probably sucks, but the only environment in which it gets played is an environment where Modern is worse, so why unban it?
Really hate the point system and hope they do something else
Wizards biggest gripe about Commander is the fact that you can build a deck and never has to change and you can just dawdle with friends at home or at a shop.
Vintage does that, but it’s competitive, not random, and you run multiple copies of cards in those decks, not one and done like EDH.
Once it became the biggest format they had to face reality and attempted to bring in rotating formats which defeats one of the best parts of Commander, not having to buy new cards constantly and were formats that by and large were played competitively rather than casually.
Wizards have adapted to this by releasing cards that are power crept for a while now, not just rares but even something like Vampire Nighthawk, because their goal is to make money, not foster a healthy format.
EDH was created as a way to pass time at tournaments in between rounds for judges. It’s an excuse to get together with mates and catch up on life. Certainly my interests lie in getting to play battlecruiser Magic that wouldn’t work in other faster formats.
Well the purpose of the tiers is that, over and over again, people have yelled and screamed at the powers that be demanding a way to not have to talk to other human beings about the gameplay experience they want to have. Commander is a format fundamentally designed with a social component, and many magic players truly hate that.
The whole rule 0 thing really doesn't work for pick up games at an LGS very well. People have fundamentally different ideas of what makes a strong deck, playstyles, etc.
I disagree. As I learn very quickly who I want to play with and who I don’t !
I haven’t dropped into stores in a while, but there was a 4-5 year stretch where I was regularly going into stores I’d never been before and dropping into games and when I sat down and asked what sort of level everyone’s decks were at 95% of the time we’d hit the right level.
You’ll always have people who want to stomp a table, but they’re easy to spot, they’re not playing with the smaller cEDH contingent at the store and no one else wants to play with them.
Vampire Nighthawk is more than a decade old and was released long, long before Commander was a pillar of Magic, so I'm kind of confused by that example.
I guess I don’t super understand some of the bans from the standpoint that I see people say stuff like “this card ends games in two turns” or something along those lines, given the variance of commander as a format.
Like…the amount of games I’ve played where I draw sol ring in the initial seven cards is in the single digits, and I have sol ring in every deck.
Am I just missing something with odds or something? Like I get Nadu, because that’s a commander and it’s effecting things all the time. It having fast mana in the 100 isn’t a guarantee that you get it out, you might just not draw it - and if you have more than several pieces and also tutors to ensure getting it out in turn 2-4 is very likely, wouldn’t everyone at the table be aware of that and say like, “our decks can’t do that, please don’t use that one?”
Commander being high variance doesn't stop cards from being massively game warping or more powerful/annoying than other options when they come out.
The banlist is to attempt to make it so playing pick up games with randoms you might never play with again don't wind up as complete misfires, not to guide playgroups who self-regulate.
milski on
I ate an engineer
0
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Ok a turn 1 sol ring can warp a game a lot, imagine a t1 crypt into sol ring into cultivate. Or t1 crypt into lotus into your 6 drop commander. It feels REAL bad when it happens and it doesn’t happen often. But I certainly still remember losing to T1 crypt lotus.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
The balance for one person popping off is 3 other people watching it happen. Yeah sure maybe sometimes they can't stop or punish it but that's how magic is in every format.
I strongly feel wotc cannot unban any of the 4 recently banned cards for any reason, no matter how much they want to for at least a year. You can say "don't send death threats" all you want, but if sending death threats gives the people doing it what they want, what lesson are they learning from that?
You also make the financial ramifications much, much worse. The damage is done now, you need to let the wound heal.
I strongly feel wotc cannot unban any of the 4 recently banned cards for any reason, no matter how much they want to for at least a year. You can say "don't send death threats" all you want, but if sending death threats gives the people doing it what they want, what lesson are they learning from that?
You also make the financial ramifications much, much worse. The damage is done now, you need to let the wound heal.
OR do more financial damage and ban triomes and shock lands
0
GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
I strongly feel wotc cannot unban any of the 4 recently banned cards for any reason, no matter how much they want to for at least a year. You can say "don't send death threats" all you want, but if sending death threats gives the people doing it what they want, what lesson are they learning from that?
You also make the financial ramifications much, much worse. The damage is done now, you need to let the wound heal.
OR do more financial damage and ban triomes and shock lands
Because I can't tell if this meant to be a joke or not, I'm not sure how serious of an answer I should give...
Yeah ban all dual lands except painlands, and pay for your color consistency like God intended.
Also are triomes really that expensive? I thought people thought they were a joke when militia came out. Like if they were commons they would barely affect pauper because they come in tapped.
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
And third you can pitch them later in the game
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
You know what they call a card that is busted all on its own?
Banned, fuck you Oko!
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
0
KwoaruConfident SmirkFlawless Golden PecsRegistered Userregular
I strongly feel wotc cannot unban any of the 4 recently banned cards for any reason, no matter how much they want to for at least a year. You can say "don't send death threats" all you want, but if sending death threats gives the people doing it what they want, what lesson are they learning from that?
You also make the financial ramifications much, much worse. The damage is done now, you need to let the wound heal.
OR do more financial damage and ban triomes and shock lands
Because I can't tell if this meant to be a joke or not, I'm not sure how serious of an answer I should give...
Oh largely a joke for sure, those lands don't seem to be a balance issue so there's no need to ban them (even if I think it would be funny).
I do dislike rare lands for petty reasons, but I mostly just don't think damage was actually done to anybody except the people who were harassed.
Strong dual lands are good, but the fact they're like $30 is bullshit (and entirely predictable). They make games faster and better, but they also reveal a very clear budget gap
We bulk ordered a ton of high quality proxy dual lands for our pod and I regret nothing
Did I also get unrecognizably proxied Great Henge and Squandered Resources? Yes absolutely.
There are some really good budget options for duals, depending on colors. The Lorwyn/Shadowmoor filter lands are all-stars for two-color decks (prices vary widely though, some have dipped to bulk and others are pricey). The new dual cycle from Duskmourn is another great one. Ravnica's bouncelands are a staple for non-green decks for consistency imo.
I am really hoping the Lorwyn revisit sees that whole cycle reprinted, honestly.
On the plus side, hybrid cards' color identity rules might change soon.
I would be pretty surprised to see any major sort of rules changes for like, at least 6 months. I think they know how controversial taking charge of the format is, and I think they're going to be very delicate until people are more comfortable
Posts
Like Sol Ring is a high-power fast mana piece, but you can bet that's not going in tier 4
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Yeah I'd give good odds that the tiers will be a fig leaf to unban a bunch of chase cards, including Jeweled Lotus.
Literally every deck pretty much runs sol ring though
Also the difference in one mana and zero mana is gigantic
There's currently 83 cards legal in commander that cost over $100. The most expensive is Timetwister at $6500. Excluding the Reserved List, there are only 8, the most expensive is P3K's Zodiac Dragon at $500, and the only one not from P3K is Edgar Markov. Which is to say, banning the reserved list almost entirely removes $100+ cards from the format.
3DS: 0473-8507-2652
Switch: SW-5185-4991-5118
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For a second there I thought you were talking about Edgar, Charmed Groom (because I forgot the original existed) and was very confused.
Sure but they aren't known for great or consistent decision making. And there will be pressure from the business side to keep the finance bros happy. I could totally see them being like "with this change and the new tier system we have done a review of the whole ban list" and unban a bunch of older power level band like Golos and also a couple of the 4.
E: To put it another way, regardless of how you feel about the disruption caused by the initial Golos ban, it is a card design that would never get made today and sucks, and it only costs a buck to buy a copy right now. There is no upside to unbanning it at this point for basically anybody. It's the same reason Modern has so many bans that don't make a lot of sense nowadays; Punishing Fire probably sucks, but the only environment in which it gets played is an environment where Modern is worse, so why unban it?
Wizards biggest gripe about Commander is the fact that you can build a deck and never has to change and you can just dawdle with friends at home or at a shop.
Vintage does that, but it’s competitive, not random, and you run multiple copies of cards in those decks, not one and done like EDH.
Once it became the biggest format they had to face reality and attempted to bring in rotating formats which defeats one of the best parts of Commander, not having to buy new cards constantly and were formats that by and large were played competitively rather than casually.
Wizards have adapted to this by releasing cards that are power crept for a while now, not just rares but even something like Vampire Nighthawk, because their goal is to make money, not foster a healthy format.
EDH was created as a way to pass time at tournaments in between rounds for judges. It’s an excuse to get together with mates and catch up on life. Certainly my interests lie in getting to play battlecruiser Magic that wouldn’t work in other faster formats.
I haven’t dropped into stores in a while, but there was a 4-5 year stretch where I was regularly going into stores I’d never been before and dropping into games and when I sat down and asked what sort of level everyone’s decks were at 95% of the time we’d hit the right level.
You’ll always have people who want to stomp a table, but they’re easy to spot, they’re not playing with the smaller cEDH contingent at the store and no one else wants to play with them.
3DS: 0473-8507-2652
Switch: SW-5185-4991-5118
PSN: AbEntropy
Like…the amount of games I’ve played where I draw sol ring in the initial seven cards is in the single digits, and I have sol ring in every deck.
Am I just missing something with odds or something? Like I get Nadu, because that’s a commander and it’s effecting things all the time. It having fast mana in the 100 isn’t a guarantee that you get it out, you might just not draw it - and if you have more than several pieces and also tutors to ensure getting it out in turn 2-4 is very likely, wouldn’t everyone at the table be aware of that and say like, “our decks can’t do that, please don’t use that one?”
The banlist is to attempt to make it so playing pick up games with randoms you might never play with again don't wind up as complete misfires, not to guide playgroups who self-regulate.
Alternatively do a full reset with better back art and slightly larger cards.
I will accept either option.
You also make the financial ramifications much, much worse. The damage is done now, you need to let the wound heal.
OR do more financial damage and ban triomes and shock lands
Because I can't tell if this meant to be a joke or not, I'm not sure how serious of an answer I should give...
Also are triomes really that expensive? I thought people thought they were a joke when militia came out. Like if they were commons they would barely affect pauper because they come in tapped.
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The secondary effect of this is that they turbo-charge Domain, enabling full strength effects with as few as two actual lands in play.
Most of the cards aren't busted on their own, they need some interaction with a card sets ago that lets them pop off.
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Banned, fuck you Oko!
Oh largely a joke for sure, those lands don't seem to be a balance issue so there's no need to ban them (even if I think it would be funny).
I do dislike rare lands for petty reasons, but I mostly just don't think damage was actually done to anybody except the people who were harassed.
We bulk ordered a ton of high quality proxy dual lands for our pod and I regret nothing
Did I also get unrecognizably proxied Great Henge and Squandered Resources? Yes absolutely.
I am really hoping the Lorwyn revisit sees that whole cycle reprinted, honestly.
3DS: 0473-8507-2652
Switch: SW-5185-4991-5118
PSN: AbEntropy
I would be pretty surprised to see any major sort of rules changes for like, at least 6 months. I think they know how controversial taking charge of the format is, and I think they're going to be very delicate until people are more comfortable
LetThemFight.gif