On the plus side, hybrid cards' color identity rules might change soon.
I would be pretty surprised to see any major sort of rules changes for like, at least 6 months. I think they know how controversial taking charge of the format is, and I think they're going to be very delicate until people are more comfortable
Yeah that's fair. I guess I meant "ever" and not "soon," since two days ago that was mostly unthinkable.
Fun fact: if you respond to a Coordinated Clobbering with a Floodpits Drowner to tap one of the creatures, only the untapped one will actually damage your creature (because the tapped one is an illegal target). Saved my 6/6 spirit token* from death that way just now and felt great.
*Unwilling Vessel -> Grand Entryway and double Unable to Scream -> Unlock Elegant Rotunda to both put a +1/+1 counter and trigger eerie again = 6 counters.
started turn with Bristly Bill and old Vorinclex
Genesis Ultimatum into Omniscience
Omniscience into Breach the Multiverse + Rise of the Dark Realms
rise got me Nyxbloom Ancient and new Vorinclex
Nyxbloom Ancient + old Vorinclex = lots of mana
obscene mana + Bristly Bill + new Vorinclex = geometrically increasing +1/+1 counters
i appreciate that my opponent let me do the thing. he would have been well within propriety to concede
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
+3
minor incidentexpert in a dying fieldnjRegistered Userregular
I'm having so much fun with this monoblack deck I've been tinkering with. It's always been loosely centered around Sheoldred, The Apocalypse, but in the current version I've added Bloodletter of Aclazotz (anytime an opponent takes damage, it's doubled), and Insatiable Avarice (Target player draws 3 cards and loses 3 life).
When all three parts come together it's an instant 18-point hit. 22 points if they survive the end of my turn and have to draw.
Before and After:
Ah, it stinks, it sucks, it's anthropologically unjust
+7
minor incidentexpert in a dying fieldnjRegistered Userregular
Stopped by GameStop to grab another few boosters while they’re doing their buy2-get1 free deal. They had two packs of Dominaria United so I grabbed those and a Duskmourn pack for $11.
The second Dominaria pack I opened was by far the best pulls I’ve ever gotten in my entire life from a booster, holy shit.
Ah, it stinks, it sucks, it's anthropologically unjust
+24
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
JFC that's a good pull.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
Zavianuniversal peace sounds better than forever warRegistered Userregular
edited October 4
i kind of want to do this deck now for the lulz
EDIT: turns out it was released awhile ago and the prices are obscene. I might do a Chucky deck instead with the new SLD
i kind of want to do this deck now for the lulz
EDIT: turns out it was released awhile ago and the prices are obscene. I might do a Chucky deck instead with the new SLD
If you want to run the pony deck, then just proxy them. They are already white boarder, so getting play groups to get past that "hurdle" is more of an issue than using proxy cards. I doubt any but the saltiest commander players would mind. If it looks fun, go for it.
Pretty sure all of these wins were off the back of Waltz of Rage and/or Funeral Room // Awakening Hall, either individually or in conjunction. Also, triple Disturbing Mirth (plus Derelict Attic) gave me card flow that would make blue decks jealous. Splashing Broodspinner was free and paid off a couple of times (at least once for the full 6 bugs, which I had to use to keep Altanak off my back for an extra turn before assembling enough power to kill it); it was never dead in my hand.
I lost to someone actually running Let's Play a Game and wiping out my swarm of bugs. It happens.
Ugh. Some people really need to think about the point of a casual format when choosing what decks to build or cards to play. Most of my games tonight were fun, but two of them were stupid.
First case - someone's playing Surgeon General Commander, which... yeah fine, it's a five-color mutate deck, silver-border commander. And then turn 4 or 5 he just mutates out Chittering Harvester. He'd gone first, so both me and the other player each had just played a single creature. Poof. And now he's in a spot where he can just edict away whatever we play because neither of us have a kill spell immediately for it. My commander just died, so I'm 2+ turns from even being back in the game, the other guy can't cast his commander now because it'll just get murdered for free, etc. Just instantly locked out of the game because someone was running "all my creatures edict" as a card in their deck. The whole thing was like 15 minutes total, of which 10 was him value solitairing out creatures against an empty board before we scooped because neither of us had drawn a board wipe to be able to play again.
Second case. Younger kid, so I understand a bit that they don't quite get it as much... but when they're giddily pointing to Jodah, the Unifier and saying "don't blame me, that other guy picked it" (pointing to someone in another pod)... like, they fucking know they're trying to just stomp the table for a free win... they proceed to accelerate into Jodah, shit value engines all over the board, tutor up unblockable on a land, and basically ran us all over by turn 6 or 7 because nobody could immediately kill Jodah. And then they act innocently like it's everyone else's fault for not running a stronger deck. Even had the gall to suggest it was my fault I didn't ask them to play something else. It was obvious from the start they were going to run that. And yeah, I get it - immature kid, but it's just frustrating.
The rest of the games tonight were great, plenty of nonsense going on. I inadvertently went infinite because someone else played an intruder alarm while I had mana dorks and blink on the board - and still lost. It's just... games where only one person gets to do their decks thing because they either win too fast for anyone else to even have gotten going or actively shut everyone else down aren't any fun at all.
The Jodah deck example definitely seems to be a power level mismatch but Chittering Harvester seems totally fine to run, it's literal draft chaff for a bad deck archetype, it just wound up winning the game because y'all were short on answers due to variance. Still not a fun game but not the person running the deck doing anything wrong IMO.
milski on
I ate an engineer
+4
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Phenax continues to be my most consistent MTG deck, as I pulled a win out of my ass by counting a counter spell to stick my commander, then milling a dude with most of his deck for 75, followed by hitting the other two (who had already been killed down to less than twenty by the guy I just OTK’d) with a mill for 13 from tree of perdition, followed by a dramatic reversal to untap tree and my now 100+ toughness somnophage to finish off the other two.
I am not a fan of infinite combos, but I do like suddenly winning the game from out of nowhere.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
I went 1-1 with my Gitrog deck last night, but mostly my win came because the deck kind of just ramps aggressively and hopes not to get focused before presenting a big splashy mass land sacrifice + recursion win with Squandered Resources or Rain of Filth (especially with Spelunking). I'm not sure how to solve this — I'm going to add Constant Mists and maybe Arachnogenesis, but it feels like the golgari landfall payoffs are either expensive big effects or underwhelming ones. Was also considering Torment of Hailfire or some other big mana sinks for those big turns, since assembling a huge army of tokens from Baloths or Titania seems kind of iffy unless you get one of the (few) haste enablers out. I guess I could also ease off the lands and do a bit of a slimy deathtouch creature subtheme to make my board harder to attack into, or slip some more landfall lifegain cards to keep my life total up.
We don't really play many tutors, but I think I've accidentally designed a deck that really wants a few tutors to really snap into effect
I went 1-1 with my Gitrog deck last night, but mostly my win came because the deck kind of just ramps aggressively and hopes not to get focused before presenting a big splashy mass land sacrifice + recursion win with Squandered Resources or Rain of Filth (especially with Spelunking). I'm not sure how to solve this — I'm going to add Constant Mists and maybe Arachnogenesis, but it feels like the golgari landfall payoffs are either expensive big effects or underwhelming ones. Was also considering Torment of Hailfire or some other big mana sinks for those big turns, since assembling a huge army of tokens from Baloths or Titania seems kind of iffy unless you get one of the (few) haste enablers out. I guess I could also ease off the lands and do a bit of a slimy deathtouch creature subtheme to make my board harder to attack into, or slip some more landfall lifegain cards to keep my life total up.
We don't really play many tutors, but I think I've accidentally designed a deck that really wants a few tutors to really snap into effect
Lotus Cobra, Iridescent Vinelasher, Retreat to Kazandu, Springheart Nantuko (busted as hell, but), Tireless Provisioner... all of those seem like good grindy value sources.
Also, Amulet of Vigor, because why not have that giant splash of mana enter untapped? (Assuming you have one, it's expensive. Stone-Seeder Heirophant is a budget option, since all those landfall triggers let her untap them all)
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
I also lent one of my decks to someone tonight during casuals, and I got to be on the other side of the nut Prossh draw
It’s hilarious
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
I went 1-1 with my Gitrog deck last night, but mostly my win came because the deck kind of just ramps aggressively and hopes not to get focused before presenting a big splashy mass land sacrifice + recursion win with Squandered Resources or Rain of Filth (especially with Spelunking). I'm not sure how to solve this — I'm going to add Constant Mists and maybe Arachnogenesis, but it feels like the golgari landfall payoffs are either expensive big effects or underwhelming ones. Was also considering Torment of Hailfire or some other big mana sinks for those big turns, since assembling a huge army of tokens from Baloths or Titania seems kind of iffy unless you get one of the (few) haste enablers out. I guess I could also ease off the lands and do a bit of a slimy deathtouch creature subtheme to make my board harder to attack into, or slip some more landfall lifegain cards to keep my life total up.
We don't really play many tutors, but I think I've accidentally designed a deck that really wants a few tutors to really snap into effect
Lotus Cobra, Iridescent Vinelasher, Retreat to Kazandu, Springheart Nantuko (busted as hell, but), Tireless Provisioner... all of those seem like good grindy value sources.
Also, Amulet of Vigor, because why not have that giant splash of mana enter untapped? (Assuming you have one, it's expensive. Stone-Seeder Heirophant is a budget option, since all those landfall triggers let her untap them all)
All those are in there but Springheart (which is definitely busted), for sure — it's more that if I have Gitrog out and a couple of those, it's still a weak board state against more aggro decks. We're still playing at a power level where creatures swingin' is very relevant, so I might need more sweepers that don't knock Gitrog off the board.
interesting discussion about the handover of the format to wizards. I was frankly more surprised to find out that the format itself was...managed (?) by an entirely volunteer group. Given that wotc sells multiple precon commander packs with every release, I can't really believe that they didn't control it already? Like that seems completely crazy to me, but maybe that's common in ccg games and I just am not aware of it.
Like that seems like a great way to have what just happened to happen
That's the thing, is Commander started as a fan-made format, and lasted for over a decade in some form before WotC actually printed any official product for it. It was in that sweet spot where it had both become very popular, but also had been so driven by non-wotc figures that there wasn't really any way to take it over that didn't feel like the big corpo muscling in.
the fact that they let it go as long as it did makes the rules committee's complete bumbling of this move so much more tragic then, like it did not have to be like this.
Yeah like even if you're someone who feels that WotC would be better stewards of the format, it would be baffling to me to hear you be happy with how things went
the fact that they let it go as long as it did makes the rules committee's complete bumbling of this move so much more tragic then, like it did not have to be like this.
Does anyone actually have a problem with the ban? They were warned off banning those cards by Wizards, because they’re money makers but the community has been calling for Dockside Extortionist to be banned for years.
The only problem was a bunch of idiots online causing a fuss and issuing death threats towards to the rules committee to the point of where they felt they had to wash their hands of it for the safety of themselves and their families.
the fact that they let it go as long as it did makes the rules committee's complete bumbling of this move so much more tragic then, like it did not have to be like this.
Does anyone actually have a problem with the ban? They were warned off banning those cards by Wizards, because they’re money makers but the community has been calling for Dockside Extortionist to be banned for years.
The only problem was a bunch of idiots online causing a fuss and issuing death threats towards to the rules committee to the point of where they felt they had to wash their hands of it for the safety of themselves and their families.
There are lots of people who are upset about the ban(s) that aren't also issuing death threats, based on reports from people that aren't wotc
interesting discussion about the handover of the format to wizards. I was frankly more surprised to find out that the format itself was...managed (?) by an entirely volunteer group. Given that wotc sells multiple precon commander packs with every release, I can't really believe that they didn't control it already? Like that seems completely crazy to me, but maybe that's common in ccg games and I just am not aware of it.
Like that seems like a great way to have what just happened to happen
WotC didn't control Commander/EDH because it was a fan-made format that had been around for a while. When they released experimental product for it in the form of prebuilt Commander decks, it would have come across as an obvious power-grab to say "we control the format now", for no real benefit since it was absolutely A Fan Format. The fact that Commander was wildly successful and grew more important to Magic over time in some ways calcified the existence of the Rules Committee; the more WotC designed for Commander on the basis there was some other entity who controlled the bans, the less it made sense for them to rock the boat and take over the format, until it wound up being necessary.
As far as the Command Zone itself, I've generally found JLK to have had pretty bad takes/behaved a bit irresponsibly about this whole situation. Almost everything he has said seems to come from the positions of A: banning any card in Commander is wrong, and B: the CAG/JLK should be more important and should have been given the format if the RC couldn't handle the obvious backlash to banning cards, and this has led him to things like publicly quitting the CAG for not being consulted on the bans, despite other CAG members basically saying "they survey us about fast mana all the time, I'm sure they took that into account with these bans".
Dockside and Nadu were, I would say, extremely safe bans. The tension is largely in Mana Vault and Lotus. I would say there's a lot of sentiment that like, fast mana is not inherently a problem, it's fast mana'ing into power that's a problem, and the solution is social, the solution is talking things out with your group. I think a very large amount of tension though is that the nature of the format exploding in popularity has lead to a lot of people wanting to do a lot of pick up games with strangers where you just jump in and play, where they want the rules to handle social interactions. Which, you know. The format becoming more antisocial is perhaps demonstrated by the banlist death threats.
One of the core tensions is that the EDH banlist is not inherently a "power" banlist. It has power bans, but its function is primarily to try and cultivate a particular environment. Commander is meant to be a more casual, more social experience, at least in the eyes of its creators. And a big struggle is that increasingly, that is not how its community is perceiving it.
Dockside and Nadu were, I would say, extremely safe bans. The tension is largely in Mana Vault and Lotus. I would say there's a lot of sentiment that like, fast mana is not inherently a problem, it's fast mana'ing into power that's a problem, and the solution is social, the solution is talking things out with your group. I think a very large amount of tension though is that the nature of the format exploding in popularity has lead to a lot of people wanting to do a lot of pick up games with strangers where you just jump in and play, where they want the rules to handle social interactions. Which, you know. The format becoming more antisocial is perhaps demonstrated by the banlist death threats.
One of the core tensions is that the EDH banlist is not inherently a "power" banlist. It has power bans, but its function is primarily to try and cultivate a particular environment. Commander is meant to be a more casual, more social experience, at least in the eyes of its creators. And a big struggle is that increasingly, that is not how its community is perceiving it.
Part of the issue is also that the banlist has text about it being intended also as guideposts for people to discuss other cards that aren't fun, and you get things where yes, technically only Gifts Ungiven is banned but there's two or three almost identical cards that can also present heads I win tails you lose combo sets.
Honestly, I think that aside from Nadu, the bans could have been mostly handled by just saying "these cards are obvious 4s" in their tier setup. But you run into the issue there that with the backlash... I'm not sure how that's going to get handled now. Really, a lot of the pure power level issues are well handled by the tiers I think. (Seedborn Muse is something I'd put at a high 3 for its tendency to instantly snowball into nigh-infinite resources if not immediately killed... and how hard that can be to do through green's instant speed defenses)
I think, generally, people are okay with the bans, it's more how they happened and the amount of cards banned at once. Had they banned Dockside and Nadu and said, "We're keeping an eye on other fast mana going forward"? Totally different story. Banning four cards at once, all of them worth like $80+? Didn't need to go down that way. And keeping Sol Ring safe somehow is still just brain pickling.
Not banning cards but saying "we're totally going to ban them later, maybe" is a much worse solution, people are just suggesting it because the outcome was bad and the RC was sitting on a powderkeg either way because the bans were very necessary and the cards were very expensive.
As far as Sol Ring goes, it makes perfect sense. Brainstorm is legal in Legacy. Shops is unrestricted in Vintage and tons of artifacts died for its sins. Artifact lands are legal in pauper. Eternal formats get to contain iconic cards that are core to their identity even if they're too strong on a power level basis otherwise.
That is actually my least favorite argument in favor of bans because the cards are often functionally irreplaceable, even if the gameplay they uniquely provide is uniquely bad.
I feel like the solution to the rules committee having to ban expensive cards was for WOTC to not print absolutely busted fast mana at high rarity specifically to sell product to commander players.
Unfortunately...
My friend is working on a roguelike game you can play if you want to. (It has free demo)
I think Ben Wheeler said it best about Sol Ring. "If one day there's a competitive Pokemon format, and Pikachu is the best Pokemon by a mile, every team, guess what? They're not banning Pikachu! He's the mascot!"
Some people want a cheap low power format and some people want a competitive one. End of the day one ban list doesn't work here so idk hopefully they're doing the obvious thing.
sol ring is a dumb card with no personality though. The only reason it represents commander is because of its power level. Command tower and arcane signet are much representative of commander as a format, IMO.
My friend is working on a roguelike game you can play if you want to. (It has free demo)
Command Tower and Arcane Signet are probably considered bigger mistakes by WotC than Sol Ring is so I don't really think I'd consider them to have good personality even if "land that fixes your mana" and "2 mana rock that fixes your mana" were particularly interesting.
E: At least Sol Ring lets you do something broken, which is a lot more iconic than some extra color fixing even if it's, in a vacuum, obviously too good.
Only in that it reduces deck variety. You get 99 cards, ideally complimentary to your Commander's strategy. 40ish of them are lands, which cuts you down to like 60. Except with "mandatory staples" like Command Tower (which is a land, granted), Sol Ring, Arcane Signet, et al, that number is growing smaller and smaller.
Posts
Yeah that's fair. I guess I meant "ever" and not "soon," since two days ago that was mostly unthinkable.
*Unwilling Vessel -> Grand Entryway and double Unable to Scream -> Unlock Elegant Rotunda to both put a +1/+1 counter and trigger eerie again = 6 counters.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Genesis Ultimatum into Omniscience
Omniscience into Breach the Multiverse + Rise of the Dark Realms
rise got me Nyxbloom Ancient and new Vorinclex
Nyxbloom Ancient + old Vorinclex = lots of mana
obscene mana + Bristly Bill + new Vorinclex = geometrically increasing +1/+1 counters
i appreciate that my opponent let me do the thing. he would have been well within propriety to concede
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
When all three parts come together it's an instant 18-point hit. 22 points if they survive the end of my turn and have to draw.
Before and After:
The second Dominaria pack I opened was by far the best pulls I’ve ever gotten in my entire life from a booster, holy shit.
EDIT: turns out it was released awhile ago and the prices are obscene. I might do a Chucky deck instead with the new SLD
If you want to run the pony deck, then just proxy them. They are already white boarder, so getting play groups to get past that "hurdle" is more of an issue than using proxy cards. I doubt any but the saltiest commander players would mind. If it looks fun, go for it.
Pretty sure all of these wins were off the back of Waltz of Rage and/or Funeral Room // Awakening Hall, either individually or in conjunction. Also, triple Disturbing Mirth (plus Derelict Attic) gave me card flow that would make blue decks jealous. Splashing Broodspinner was free and paid off a couple of times (at least once for the full 6 bugs, which I had to use to keep Altanak off my back for an extra turn before assembling enough power to kill it); it was never dead in my hand.
I lost to someone actually running Let's Play a Game and wiping out my swarm of bugs. It happens.
Second case. Younger kid, so I understand a bit that they don't quite get it as much... but when they're giddily pointing to Jodah, the Unifier and saying "don't blame me, that other guy picked it" (pointing to someone in another pod)... like, they fucking know they're trying to just stomp the table for a free win... they proceed to accelerate into Jodah, shit value engines all over the board, tutor up unblockable on a land, and basically ran us all over by turn 6 or 7 because nobody could immediately kill Jodah. And then they act innocently like it's everyone else's fault for not running a stronger deck. Even had the gall to suggest it was my fault I didn't ask them to play something else. It was obvious from the start they were going to run that. And yeah, I get it - immature kid, but it's just frustrating.
The rest of the games tonight were great, plenty of nonsense going on. I inadvertently went infinite because someone else played an intruder alarm while I had mana dorks and blink on the board - and still lost. It's just... games where only one person gets to do their decks thing because they either win too fast for anyone else to even have gotten going or actively shut everyone else down aren't any fun at all.
3DS: 0473-8507-2652
Switch: SW-5185-4991-5118
PSN: AbEntropy
I am not a fan of infinite combos, but I do like suddenly winning the game from out of nowhere.
We don't really play many tutors, but I think I've accidentally designed a deck that really wants a few tutors to really snap into effect
Lotus Cobra, Iridescent Vinelasher, Retreat to Kazandu, Springheart Nantuko (busted as hell, but), Tireless Provisioner... all of those seem like good grindy value sources.
Also, Amulet of Vigor, because why not have that giant splash of mana enter untapped? (Assuming you have one, it's expensive. Stone-Seeder Heirophant is a budget option, since all those landfall triggers let her untap them all)
3DS: 0473-8507-2652
Switch: SW-5185-4991-5118
PSN: AbEntropy
It’s hilarious
All those are in there but Springheart (which is definitely busted), for sure — it's more that if I have Gitrog out and a couple of those, it's still a weak board state against more aggro decks. We're still playing at a power level where creatures swingin' is very relevant, so I might need more sweepers that don't knock Gitrog off the board.
interesting discussion about the handover of the format to wizards. I was frankly more surprised to find out that the format itself was...managed (?) by an entirely volunteer group. Given that wotc sells multiple precon commander packs with every release, I can't really believe that they didn't control it already? Like that seems completely crazy to me, but maybe that's common in ccg games and I just am not aware of it.
Like that seems like a great way to have what just happened to happen
Does anyone actually have a problem with the ban? They were warned off banning those cards by Wizards, because they’re money makers but the community has been calling for Dockside Extortionist to be banned for years.
The only problem was a bunch of idiots online causing a fuss and issuing death threats towards to the rules committee to the point of where they felt they had to wash their hands of it for the safety of themselves and their families.
There are lots of people who are upset about the ban(s) that aren't also issuing death threats, based on reports from people that aren't wotc
WotC didn't control Commander/EDH because it was a fan-made format that had been around for a while. When they released experimental product for it in the form of prebuilt Commander decks, it would have come across as an obvious power-grab to say "we control the format now", for no real benefit since it was absolutely A Fan Format. The fact that Commander was wildly successful and grew more important to Magic over time in some ways calcified the existence of the Rules Committee; the more WotC designed for Commander on the basis there was some other entity who controlled the bans, the less it made sense for them to rock the boat and take over the format, until it wound up being necessary.
One of the core tensions is that the EDH banlist is not inherently a "power" banlist. It has power bans, but its function is primarily to try and cultivate a particular environment. Commander is meant to be a more casual, more social experience, at least in the eyes of its creators. And a big struggle is that increasingly, that is not how its community is perceiving it.
Part of the issue is also that the banlist has text about it being intended also as guideposts for people to discuss other cards that aren't fun, and you get things where yes, technically only Gifts Ungiven is banned but there's two or three almost identical cards that can also present heads I win tails you lose combo sets.
Honestly, I think that aside from Nadu, the bans could have been mostly handled by just saying "these cards are obvious 4s" in their tier setup. But you run into the issue there that with the backlash... I'm not sure how that's going to get handled now. Really, a lot of the pure power level issues are well handled by the tiers I think. (Seedborn Muse is something I'd put at a high 3 for its tendency to instantly snowball into nigh-infinite resources if not immediately killed... and how hard that can be to do through green's instant speed defenses)
3DS: 0473-8507-2652
Switch: SW-5185-4991-5118
PSN: AbEntropy
As far as Sol Ring goes, it makes perfect sense. Brainstorm is legal in Legacy. Shops is unrestricted in Vintage and tons of artifacts died for its sins. Artifact lands are legal in pauper. Eternal formats get to contain iconic cards that are core to their identity even if they're too strong on a power level basis otherwise.
Unfortunately...
E: At least Sol Ring lets you do something broken, which is a lot more iconic than some extra color fixing even if it's, in a vacuum, obviously too good.
Only in that it reduces deck variety. You get 99 cards, ideally complimentary to your Commander's strategy. 40ish of them are lands, which cuts you down to like 60. Except with "mandatory staples" like Command Tower (which is a land, granted), Sol Ring, Arcane Signet, et al, that number is growing smaller and smaller.