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  • BurtletoyBurtletoy Registered User regular
    Burtletoy wrote: »
    Gnizmo wrote: »
    If Egypt had opened the border there would be no one left in Gaza right now. Israel is clearly trying to do an ethnic cleansing, and that would just be assisting them. Egypt isn't a fraction as complicit as the US is in all of this.

    And the people of Gaza are surely better off in their current situation then they would be if they could leave the warzone they're currently living in yes?

    Yeah, maybe Israel and their bomb supplier should fuck off and stop doing genocide

    I agree they should. But they aren't, and it seems unlikely they will.

    So it would probably be better for the Gazans that they be allowed to leave, the impact to Egypt's economic and political situation notwithstanding.

    So instead of stopping the culprits we should blame the victims?

    Like, seriously! Seriously listen to what you are saying here friend!

  • zagdrobzagdrob Registered User regular
    Burtletoy wrote: »
    zagdrob wrote: »
    Gnizmo wrote: »
    If Egypt had opened the border there would be no one left in Gaza right now. Israel is clearly trying to do an ethnic cleansing, and that would just be assisting them. Egypt isn't a fraction as complicit as the US is in all of this.

    Look if all the Palestinian innocents had evacuated / fled and lived on as diaspora but for now surrendering Gaza to Israel in full it beats hundreds of thousands of innocents dying pointlessly there.

    Barring the door just because it means Israel has to do the work themselves of extermination is horrendous.

    Another good reason for Egypt to not allow refugees, now that you mention it. Israel calling everyone that flees hamasmember means allowing Palestinian civilians into your country means allowing Israel to indiscriminately bomb your apartment building and government

    This is actually a decent point on why Egypt or other neighboring governments wouldn't want to take in Palestinians, especially in light of the Palestinians that fled to Jordan / Lebanon previously and their situations.

    Not sure there is an easy answer, but I feel like it just pushes the 'Israel is gonna bomb whoever they think is Hamas' out a level. Are there more consequences to them dropping bombs in Egypt? Probably?

  • BurtletoyBurtletoy Registered User regular
    zagdrob wrote: »
    Burtletoy wrote: »
    zagdrob wrote: »
    Gnizmo wrote: »
    If Egypt had opened the border there would be no one left in Gaza right now. Israel is clearly trying to do an ethnic cleansing, and that would just be assisting them. Egypt isn't a fraction as complicit as the US is in all of this.

    Look if all the Palestinian innocents had evacuated / fled and lived on as diaspora but for now surrendering Gaza to Israel in full it beats hundreds of thousands of innocents dying pointlessly there.

    Barring the door just because it means Israel has to do the work themselves of extermination is horrendous.

    Another good reason for Egypt to not allow refugees, now that you mention it. Israel calling everyone that flees hamasmember means allowing Palestinian civilians into your country means allowing Israel to indiscriminately bomb your apartment building and government

    This is actually a decent point on why Egypt or other neighboring governments wouldn't want to take in Palestinians, especially in light of the Palestinians that fled to Jordan / Lebanon previously and their situations.

    Not sure there is an easy answer, but I feel like it just pushes the 'Israel is gonna bomb whoever they think is Hamas' out a level. Are there more consequences to them dropping bombs in Egypt? Probably?

    I appreciate this 2nd apology, too!

  • zagdrobzagdrob Registered User regular
    Burtletoy wrote: »
    zagdrob wrote: »
    Burtletoy wrote: »
    zagdrob wrote: »
    Gnizmo wrote: »
    If Egypt had opened the border there would be no one left in Gaza right now. Israel is clearly trying to do an ethnic cleansing, and that would just be assisting them. Egypt isn't a fraction as complicit as the US is in all of this.

    Look if all the Palestinian innocents had evacuated / fled and lived on as diaspora but for now surrendering Gaza to Israel in full it beats hundreds of thousands of innocents dying pointlessly there.

    Barring the door just because it means Israel has to do the work themselves of extermination is horrendous.

    Another good reason for Egypt to not allow refugees, now that you mention it. Israel calling everyone that flees hamasmember means allowing Palestinian civilians into your country means allowing Israel to indiscriminately bomb your apartment building and government

    This is actually a decent point on why Egypt or other neighboring governments wouldn't want to take in Palestinians, especially in light of the Palestinians that fled to Jordan / Lebanon previously and their situations.

    Not sure there is an easy answer, but I feel like it just pushes the 'Israel is gonna bomb whoever they think is Hamas' out a level. Are there more consequences to them dropping bombs in Egypt? Probably?

    I appreciate this 2nd apology, too!

    Not an apology! There was no first apology either bud.

  • GnizmoGnizmo Registered User regular
    zagdrob wrote: »
    Burtletoy wrote: »
    zagdrob wrote: »
    Gnizmo wrote: »
    If Egypt had opened the border there would be no one left in Gaza right now. Israel is clearly trying to do an ethnic cleansing, and that would just be assisting them. Egypt isn't a fraction as complicit as the US is in all of this.

    Look if all the Palestinian innocents had evacuated / fled and lived on as diaspora but for now surrendering Gaza to Israel in full it beats hundreds of thousands of innocents dying pointlessly there.

    Barring the door just because it means Israel has to do the work themselves of extermination is horrendous.

    Another good reason for Egypt to not allow refugees, now that you mention it. Israel calling everyone that flees hamasmember means allowing Palestinian civilians into your country means allowing Israel to indiscriminately bomb your apartment building and government

    This is actually a decent point on why Egypt or other neighboring governments wouldn't want to take in Palestinians, especially in light of the Palestinians that fled to Jordan / Lebanon previously and their situations.

    Not sure there is an easy answer, but I feel like it just pushes the 'Israel is gonna bomb whoever they think is Hamas' out a level. Are there more consequences to them dropping bombs in Egypt? Probably?

    Maybe it is time for the US to stop shielding them from the consequences so Egypt doesn't have to roll the dice on if them being bombed will move the needle.

  • Lord_AsmodeusLord_Asmodeus goeticSobriquet: Here is your magical cryptic riddle-tumour: I AM A TIME MACHINERegistered User regular
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Hezbollah's strikes against Israel this past year and Israel's invasion of Gaza are intrinsically linked. They are part of the same conflict, and we all know this to be so, shryke.

    Trying to play some sort of semantical game isn't winning anyone over, in fact it makes you look worse than if you simply admitted that you were wrong before, or that you have changed your mind after seeing new evidence.

    Hezbollah/Lebanon is completely different from Gaza/Hamas in terms of domestic politics in Israel. Hezbollah has no hostages to negotiate for the release of and is just firing rockets across the border and forcing people to flee their homes. To go to the article itself that hits on this pretty well:
    Israel has defined its objectives for the war as the release of captives held in Gaza, the defeat of Hamas and the return of Israelis to their homes in the north of the country
    Netanyahu's personal unpopularity in Israel and the reasons for it have been extensively reported on for a year now. Up to and including less then a month ago when there were massive protests and a general strike over the death of the 6 hostages in Gaza. Netanyahu has consistently failed to deliver on what the public has wanted and has been unpopular for it. He's been continuing the war in Gaza and not getting the actual job done. To the point that his own negotiators, who were high level members in the government and military, were calling him out on it.

    But the shifting focus to Hezbollah has gone over well because it seems to be actually accomplishing what people want. And your own link talks about this:
    Israel has largely been fractured over the past year, divided over what went wrong during the Hamas-led attack on October 7, what the priorities of its war on Gaza should be, and whether Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is the right man to lead the country.

    But the assassination of Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah in Beirut last Friday has provided Netanyahu with a major win, say analysts, and has united many of Israel’s politicians – and its public.
    It seems like in the last few days that public opinion may be shifting because of the change in focus and what is perceived as actual results.

    This is all part of the same thing. The Israeli public is mad at Netanyahu for letting Oct 7th happen and for not seeming to even care about getting the hostages back. And then happy at him for seeming to succeed at the goal of stopping the rocket attacks in the north so people can go home. Because what they want is for the hostages to come home, for the people in the north to go home and for Israelis in general to feel safe again. Failing to deliver on that makes him unpopular. Seeming to deliver on that does the opposite.

    You cannot claim that Netanyahu's warmongering is unpopular when his warmongering is giving him a boost in the polls!

    You start off by saying "Hezbollah/Lebanon is completely different from Gaza/Hamas in terms of domestic politics in Israel" and then you "go to the article itself" that states one of the goals of the war is "the return of Israelis to the their homes in the north of the country."

    Whose attacks made those Israelis flee from their homes, shryke?

    You're trying to have it both ways, shyrke.

    I agree with the part of your post that says "This is all part of the same thing" shryke! But I disagree with the parts of your post that say they aren't, that they have to be thought about separately, despite being part of the same thing.

    You absolutely can claim that, because it's warmongering about different thing Primus

    It is possible to approve of military action in one situation, and not in another, even if those situations are related to one another due to military or geopolitical causes Primus

    There can be a greater overarching conflict that affects people in different ways depending on the specific context of the conflict itself, and thus cause people to have different feelings about how those conflicts are resolved, Primus

    It turns out politics, and human psychology in general, is actually pretty complex and isn't a simple binary good or bad switch that people people toggle on or off, and that just because two a things are related it doesn't mean everyone will feel about them the same way regardless of anything else

    Primus

    Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if Labor had not first existed. Labor is superior to capital, and deserves much the higher consideration. - Lincoln
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Hezbollah's strikes against Israel this past year and Israel's invasion of Gaza are intrinsically linked. They are part of the same conflict, and we all know this to be so, shryke.

    Trying to play some sort of semantical game isn't winning anyone over, in fact it makes you look worse than if you simply admitted that you were wrong before, or that you have changed your mind after seeing new evidence.

    Hezbollah/Lebanon is completely different from Gaza/Hamas in terms of domestic politics in Israel. Hezbollah has no hostages to negotiate for the release of and is just firing rockets across the border and forcing people to flee their homes. To go to the article itself that hits on this pretty well:
    Israel has defined its objectives for the war as the release of captives held in Gaza, the defeat of Hamas and the return of Israelis to their homes in the north of the country
    Netanyahu's personal unpopularity in Israel and the reasons for it have been extensively reported on for a year now. Up to and including less then a month ago when there were massive protests and a general strike over the death of the 6 hostages in Gaza. Netanyahu has consistently failed to deliver on what the public has wanted and has been unpopular for it. He's been continuing the war in Gaza and not getting the actual job done. To the point that his own negotiators, who were high level members in the government and military, were calling him out on it.

    But the shifting focus to Hezbollah has gone over well because it seems to be actually accomplishing what people want. And your own link talks about this:
    Israel has largely been fractured over the past year, divided over what went wrong during the Hamas-led attack on October 7, what the priorities of its war on Gaza should be, and whether Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is the right man to lead the country.

    But the assassination of Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah in Beirut last Friday has provided Netanyahu with a major win, say analysts, and has united many of Israel’s politicians – and its public.
    It seems like in the last few days that public opinion may be shifting because of the change in focus and what is perceived as actual results.

    This is all part of the same thing. The Israeli public is mad at Netanyahu for letting Oct 7th happen and for not seeming to even care about getting the hostages back. And then happy at him for seeming to succeed at the goal of stopping the rocket attacks in the north so people can go home. Because what they want is for the hostages to come home, for the people in the north to go home and for Israelis in general to feel safe again. Failing to deliver on that makes him unpopular. Seeming to deliver on that does the opposite.

    You cannot claim that Netanyahu's warmongering is unpopular when his warmongering is giving him a boost in the polls!

    You start off by saying "Hezbollah/Lebanon is completely different from Gaza/Hamas in terms of domestic politics in Israel" and then you "go to the article itself" that states one of the goals of the war is "the return of Israelis to the their homes in the north of the country."

    Whose attacks made those Israelis flee from their homes, shryke?

    You're trying to have it both ways, shyrke.

    I agree with the part of your post that says "This is all part of the same thing" shryke! But I disagree with the parts of your post that say they aren't, that they have to be thought about separately, despite being part of the same thing.

    You can absolutely say that Netanyahu's continued war on one front makes him unpopular while his war on another front does the opposite. I was literally just explaining how. What does the Israeli public want? Is what Netanyahu's doing accomplishing that? When it is, they like, when it's not, they don't. This is not terribly complex and it's all part of the same idea I was talking about.

    The war against Hezbollah/Lebanon is not the same as the war against Hamas/Gaza. The first is about getting people in the north back in their homes. The second is about getting hostages back. One is definitely not working, the other (at least for the moment) looks like it is. And so you get different reactions.

  • MagellMagell Detroit Machine Guns Fort MyersRegistered User regular
    As long as you kill a terrorist leader it's fine if you kill a couple hundred civilians by levelling apartment buildings.

  • Lord_AsmodeusLord_Asmodeus goeticSobriquet: Here is your magical cryptic riddle-tumour: I AM A TIME MACHINERegistered User regular
    Burtletoy wrote: »
    Burtletoy wrote: »
    Gnizmo wrote: »
    If Egypt had opened the border there would be no one left in Gaza right now. Israel is clearly trying to do an ethnic cleansing, and that would just be assisting them. Egypt isn't a fraction as complicit as the US is in all of this.

    And the people of Gaza are surely better off in their current situation then they would be if they could leave the warzone they're currently living in yes?

    Yeah, maybe Israel and their bomb supplier should fuck off and stop doing genocide

    I agree they should. But they aren't, and it seems unlikely they will.

    So it would probably be better for the Gazans that they be allowed to leave, the impact to Egypt's economic and political situation notwithstanding.

    So instead of stopping the culprits we should blame the victims?

    Like, seriously! Seriously listen to what you are saying here friend!

    Is Egypt the victim in this context?

    Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if Labor had not first existed. Labor is superior to capital, and deserves much the higher consideration. - Lincoln
  • Hahnsoo1Hahnsoo1 Make Ready. We Hunt.Registered User, Moderator mod
    Geth, kick Burtletoy from the thread.

    8i1dt37buh2m.png
  • Hahnsoo1Hahnsoo1 Make Ready. We Hunt.Registered User, Moderator mod
    Geth kick user Burtletoy

    8i1dt37buh2m.png
  • GethGeth Legion Perseus VeilRegistered User, Moderator, Penny Arcade Staff, Vanilla Staff vanilla
    Affirmative Hahnsoo1. @Burtletoy banned from this thread.

  • This content has been removed.

  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Hezbollah's strikes against Israel this past year and Israel's invasion of Gaza are intrinsically linked. They are part of the same conflict, and we all know this to be so, shryke.

    Trying to play some sort of semantical game isn't winning anyone over, in fact it makes you look worse than if you simply admitted that you were wrong before, or that you have changed your mind after seeing new evidence.

    Hezbollah/Lebanon is completely different from Gaza/Hamas in terms of domestic politics in Israel. Hezbollah has no hostages to negotiate for the release of and is just firing rockets across the border and forcing people to flee their homes. To go to the article itself that hits on this pretty well:
    Israel has defined its objectives for the war as the release of captives held in Gaza, the defeat of Hamas and the return of Israelis to their homes in the north of the country
    Netanyahu's personal unpopularity in Israel and the reasons for it have been extensively reported on for a year now. Up to and including less then a month ago when there were massive protests and a general strike over the death of the 6 hostages in Gaza. Netanyahu has consistently failed to deliver on what the public has wanted and has been unpopular for it. He's been continuing the war in Gaza and not getting the actual job done. To the point that his own negotiators, who were high level members in the government and military, were calling him out on it.

    But the shifting focus to Hezbollah has gone over well because it seems to be actually accomplishing what people want. And your own link talks about this:
    Israel has largely been fractured over the past year, divided over what went wrong during the Hamas-led attack on October 7, what the priorities of its war on Gaza should be, and whether Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is the right man to lead the country.

    But the assassination of Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah in Beirut last Friday has provided Netanyahu with a major win, say analysts, and has united many of Israel’s politicians – and its public.
    It seems like in the last few days that public opinion may be shifting because of the change in focus and what is perceived as actual results.

    This is all part of the same thing. The Israeli public is mad at Netanyahu for letting Oct 7th happen and for not seeming to even care about getting the hostages back. And then happy at him for seeming to succeed at the goal of stopping the rocket attacks in the north so people can go home. Because what they want is for the hostages to come home, for the people in the north to go home and for Israelis in general to feel safe again. Failing to deliver on that makes him unpopular. Seeming to deliver on that does the opposite.

    You cannot claim that Netanyahu's warmongering is unpopular when his warmongering is giving him a boost in the polls!

    You start off by saying "Hezbollah/Lebanon is completely different from Gaza/Hamas in terms of domestic politics in Israel" and then you "go to the article itself" that states one of the goals of the war is "the return of Israelis to the their homes in the north of the country."

    Whose attacks made those Israelis flee from their homes, shryke?

    You're trying to have it both ways, shyrke.

    I agree with the part of your post that says "This is all part of the same thing" shryke! But I disagree with the parts of your post that say they aren't, that they have to be thought about separately, despite being part of the same thing.

    You can absolutely say that Netanyahu's continued war on one front makes him unpopular while his war on another front does the opposite. I was literally just explaining how. What does the Israeli public want? Is what Netanyahu's doing accomplishing that? When it is, they like, when it's not, they don't. This is not terribly complex and it's all part of the same idea I was talking about.

    The war against Hezbollah/Lebanon is not the same as the war against Hamas/Gaza. The first is about getting people in the north back in their homes. The second is about getting hostages back. One is definitely not working, the other (at least for the moment) looks like it is. And so you get different reactions.

    You yourself said it's all part of the same thing, shryke!

    The article you quoted from, the very bit you quoted, says it's all the part of the same thing!

    The people out in Israel's streets protesting for the return of the hostages were calling on Netanyahu to agree to a ceasefire in Gaza.

    You know what Hezbollah has been calling for, in order to cease their hostilities? A ceasefire in Gaza.

  • RonTheDMRonTheDM Yes, yes Registered User regular
    Reuters and others pointed out that the clip of "people celebrating" was a 2020 clip from a Lebanon protest.

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited October 1
    Aegeri wrote: »
    Magell wrote: »
    As long as you kill a terrorist leader it's fine if you kill a couple hundred civilians by levelling apartment buildings.

    The shocking thing to me is that people celebrated this not just in Israel, but Lebanon, Jordan and Syria as well.

    I'm not going to shed a tear for some terrorist asshole, but didn't they kill 300 people to do it? Is that really worth it?

    IMO if you (or your government) didn't actually do the strike and kill all those innocent people it's a lot easier to feel happy he's dead. Especially when the guy in question is responsible for horrible things that happened to you.

    RonTheDM wrote: »
    Reuters and others pointed out that the clip of "people celebrating" was a 2020 clip from a Lebanon protest.

    Yeah, there's some misattributed clips. But there's also been celebration reported by actual local reporters that aren't just attributed to those videos on social media.

    shryke on
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Hezbollah's strikes against Israel this past year and Israel's invasion of Gaza are intrinsically linked. They are part of the same conflict, and we all know this to be so, shryke.

    Trying to play some sort of semantical game isn't winning anyone over, in fact it makes you look worse than if you simply admitted that you were wrong before, or that you have changed your mind after seeing new evidence.

    Hezbollah/Lebanon is completely different from Gaza/Hamas in terms of domestic politics in Israel. Hezbollah has no hostages to negotiate for the release of and is just firing rockets across the border and forcing people to flee their homes. To go to the article itself that hits on this pretty well:
    Israel has defined its objectives for the war as the release of captives held in Gaza, the defeat of Hamas and the return of Israelis to their homes in the north of the country
    Netanyahu's personal unpopularity in Israel and the reasons for it have been extensively reported on for a year now. Up to and including less then a month ago when there were massive protests and a general strike over the death of the 6 hostages in Gaza. Netanyahu has consistently failed to deliver on what the public has wanted and has been unpopular for it. He's been continuing the war in Gaza and not getting the actual job done. To the point that his own negotiators, who were high level members in the government and military, were calling him out on it.

    But the shifting focus to Hezbollah has gone over well because it seems to be actually accomplishing what people want. And your own link talks about this:
    Israel has largely been fractured over the past year, divided over what went wrong during the Hamas-led attack on October 7, what the priorities of its war on Gaza should be, and whether Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is the right man to lead the country.

    But the assassination of Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah in Beirut last Friday has provided Netanyahu with a major win, say analysts, and has united many of Israel’s politicians – and its public.
    It seems like in the last few days that public opinion may be shifting because of the change in focus and what is perceived as actual results.

    This is all part of the same thing. The Israeli public is mad at Netanyahu for letting Oct 7th happen and for not seeming to even care about getting the hostages back. And then happy at him for seeming to succeed at the goal of stopping the rocket attacks in the north so people can go home. Because what they want is for the hostages to come home, for the people in the north to go home and for Israelis in general to feel safe again. Failing to deliver on that makes him unpopular. Seeming to deliver on that does the opposite.

    You cannot claim that Netanyahu's warmongering is unpopular when his warmongering is giving him a boost in the polls!

    You start off by saying "Hezbollah/Lebanon is completely different from Gaza/Hamas in terms of domestic politics in Israel" and then you "go to the article itself" that states one of the goals of the war is "the return of Israelis to the their homes in the north of the country."

    Whose attacks made those Israelis flee from their homes, shryke?

    You're trying to have it both ways, shyrke.

    I agree with the part of your post that says "This is all part of the same thing" shryke! But I disagree with the parts of your post that say they aren't, that they have to be thought about separately, despite being part of the same thing.

    You can absolutely say that Netanyahu's continued war on one front makes him unpopular while his war on another front does the opposite. I was literally just explaining how. What does the Israeli public want? Is what Netanyahu's doing accomplishing that? When it is, they like, when it's not, they don't. This is not terribly complex and it's all part of the same idea I was talking about.

    The war against Hezbollah/Lebanon is not the same as the war against Hamas/Gaza. The first is about getting people in the north back in their homes. The second is about getting hostages back. One is definitely not working, the other (at least for the moment) looks like it is. And so you get different reactions.

    You yourself said it's all part of the same thing, shryke!

    The article you quoted from, the very bit you quoted, says it's all the part of the same thing!

    The people out in Israel's streets protesting for the return of the hostages were calling on Netanyahu to agree to a ceasefire in Gaza.

    You know what Hezbollah has been calling for, in order to cease their hostilities? A ceasefire in Gaza.

    What are you even trying to argue anymore? You are making zero sense.

    Hezbollah can claim whatever they want. Israelis just want their people in the north to be able to go back to their homes and so they are happy when they government is killing Hezbollah to make that happen. That's it. It's pretty simple. The government is, in their minds, finally accomplishing one of the goals people wanted from all these conflicts that started after Oct 7th.

  • RonTheDMRonTheDM Yes, yes Registered User regular
    Lebanon is going to continue to have issues with Israel as long as they keep occupying Shebaa Farms.

    But that's what Israel does. It colonizes and it occupies.

  • Lord_AsmodeusLord_Asmodeus goeticSobriquet: Here is your magical cryptic riddle-tumour: I AM A TIME MACHINERegistered User regular
    I don't know why there's such a recurring theme in these threads of some people, for some mystifying reason, taking the word of terrorists, pirates, and warlords at face value. As if, just because a violent authoritarian theocrat SAYS they're doing something for a just reason, that that's why they're doing it, perfect, no notes. Some of these people, hey get this, might just be lying shits using the atrocity that is being visited upon the Palestinian people to justify their own violence and atrocities, violence and atrocities they in all likelihood were going to do anyway. Destroying Israel is part of Hezobollah's founding mission statement and they have been launching rockets at Israel on and off since their inception, irrespective of the political and humanitarian situation of the Palestinian people. I have little doubt that even if they had stopped the rocket attacks they were launching if Israel had agreed to a ceasefire, an outcome that was by no means certain, they would find another excuse to start launching attacks again before too long. Or, just start launching them again without bothering to find an excuse. Again, destroying Israel is part of their raison d'etre so from their perspective they don't really need an excuse to take actions hostile to Israel.

    Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if Labor had not first existed. Labor is superior to capital, and deserves much the higher consideration. - Lincoln
  • asurasur Registered User regular
    I don't know why there's such a recurring theme in these threads of some people, for some mystifying reason, taking the word of terrorists, pirates, and warlords at face value. As if, just because a violent authoritarian theocrat SAYS they're doing something for a just reason, that that's why they're doing it, perfect, no notes. Some of these people, hey get this, might just be lying shits using the atrocity that is being visited upon the Palestinian people to justify their own violence and atrocities, violence and atrocities they in all likelihood were going to do anyway. Destroying Israel is part of Hezobollah's founding mission statement and they have been launching rockets at Israel on and off since their inception, irrespective of the political and humanitarian situation of the Palestinian people. I have little doubt that even if they had stopped the rocket attacks they were launching if Israel had agreed to a ceasefire, an outcome that was by no means certain, they would find another excuse to start launching attacks again before too long. Or, just start launching them again without bothering to find an excuse. Again, destroying Israel is part of their raison d'etre so from their perspective they don't really need an excuse to take actions hostile to Israel.

    Rocket attacks by Hezbollah prior to Oct 8th 2023 have been almost non existent since 2012 so what evidence do you have that Hezbollah would start up a massive campaign?

  • LanzLanz ...Za?Registered User regular
    edited October 1
    I don't know why there's such a recurring theme in these threads of some people, for some mystifying reason, taking the word of terrorists, pirates, and warlords at face value. As if, just because a violent authoritarian theocrat SAYS they're doing something for a just reason, that that's why they're doing it, perfect, no notes. Some of these people, hey get this, might just be lying shits using the atrocity that is being visited upon the Palestinian people to justify their own violence and atrocities, violence and atrocities they in all likelihood were going to do anyway. Destroying Israel is part of Hezobollah's founding mission statement and they have been launching rockets at Israel on and off since their inception, irrespective of the political and humanitarian situation of the Palestinian people. I have little doubt that even if they had stopped the rocket attacks they were launching if Israel had agreed to a ceasefire, an outcome that was by no means certain, they would find another excuse to start launching attacks again before too long. Or, just start launching them again without bothering to find an excuse. Again, destroying Israel is part of their raison d'etre so from their perspective they don't really need an excuse to take actions hostile to Israel.

    Because even the genocidal bastards admitted they killed Nasrallah because he tied a Hezbollan ceasefire to a ceasefire in Gaza:

    https://abcnews.go.com/International/live-updates/israel-gaza-hamas-hezbollah-war/?id=113917948&entryId=114328812
    Nasrallah killed for tying Hezbollah cause to Gaza war: Israeli official

    Israel decided to assassinate Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah because he refused to separate diplomatic talks on the Hezbollah-Israel front from the war in Gaza, according to an Israeli official.

    Nasrallah was killed in an Israeli airstrike on Friday.

    The Israeli official said the decision to assassinate Hezbollah's leader was made because Nasrallah declined diplomatic efforts in the last 11 months to separate the "northern front" -- Lebanon -- from the war in Gaza.

    The official also said Hezbollah attacks in the last weeks and months had expanded in range and velocity, which “led us to understand that he cannot be part of the game and decision maker in the region anymore.”


    The official said it is up to Nasrallah's successor to agree to a diplomatic solution that allows Israel to achieve the goals it has publicly set -- the safe return of over 60,000 Israelis to their homes in the north. However, the official added, Israel has "many other tools to make sure that if they do not agree, we have other ways to achieve" that goal.

    Iranian President Masoud Pezeshkian said at a cabinet meeting Sunday that Nasrallah's assassination will not go unanswered, according to Iranian state media.


    Israel: well he kept refusing to separate his attacks from our attacks on Palestinians, and we don’t wanna stop killing Palestinians, so we had to kill him. Maybe it’ll teach the next guy to play ball and let us murder Palestinians with impunity until we’ve cleansed Gaza and the West Bank for settlement. And if he doesn’t, well, we’ll murder him and however many civilians it takes to do so too.

    EDIT:

    Also since I haven’t seen it posted here:

    https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2024-lebanon-death-toll-israel-hezbollah-attacks/

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    Click images for higher resolution
    In the days since pagers began exploding in Lebanon, Israeli forces have stepped up their attacks on Hezbollah, pounding targets across the country and assassinating top leaders. Hezbollah has fired hundreds of rockets at northern Israel in response — including its first-ever attempt to target Tel Aviv with a ballistic missile — in the worst violence between the two sides since a 2006 war.

    Israel’s military said it killed Hezbollah’s leader, Hassan Nasrallah, in an air strike on Beirut on Friday evening. Israel targeted Nasrallah with its strike on Hezbollah’s headquarters in the heaviest attack on the Lebanese capital in almost two decades. State-run television in Lebanon reported that six buildings were leveled.

    More than 700 people have been killed since Sunday, according to Lebanese Health Ministry officials, and at least 250,000 have fled their homes.

    In a Friday speech at the United Nations General Assembly, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu vowed to press ahead with the fight against Hezbollah. “As long as Hezbollah chooses the path of war, Israel has no choice and Israel has every right to remove this threat,” Netanyahu said. “We will continue degrading Hezbollah until all our objectives are met.”

    More in the piece

    Lanz on
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    I don't know why there's such a recurring theme in these threads of some people, for some mystifying reason, taking the word of terrorists, pirates, and warlords at face value. As if, just because a violent authoritarian theocrat SAYS they're doing something for a just reason, that that's why they're doing it, perfect, no notes. Some of these people, hey get this, might just be lying shits using the atrocity that is being visited upon the Palestinian people to justify their own violence and atrocities, violence and atrocities they in all likelihood were going to do anyway. Destroying Israel is part of Hezobollah's founding mission statement and they have been launching rockets at Israel on and off since their inception, irrespective of the political and humanitarian situation of the Palestinian people. I have little doubt that even if they had stopped the rocket attacks they were launching if Israel had agreed to a ceasefire, an outcome that was by no means certain, they would find another excuse to start launching attacks again before too long. Or, just start launching them again without bothering to find an excuse. Again, destroying Israel is part of their raison d'etre so from their perspective they don't really need an excuse to take actions hostile to Israel.

    You know what was going on during the first serious lull in barrages from Hezbollah? That really short prison exchange and cease-fire between Hamas and the IDF.

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  • KelorKelor Registered User regular
    Israel also worked their way through Haniyeh’s grandchildren, children and finally him explicitly because they didn’t like the terms in negotiations.

  • Endless_SerpentsEndless_Serpents Registered User regular
    I completely agree with Asmodeus, I also don’t believe a single thing a violent authoritarian theocratic state says.

  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    Refusing entry to refugees is bad, full stop. Creating refugees in the first place is worse, and I can understand the various reasons why Egypt isn't interesting in taking in however many hundreds of thousands of Gazans would want to flee, but that doesn't mean that Eqypt's decision to close their border is particularly moral.

    I can understand how there could be celebrations, even in Lebanon, over Nasrallah's death. Hezbollah is part of Lebanon's government, but they're also an independent paramilitary force that's spent the last year launching attacks at Lebanon's heavily armed southern neighbor to the point where Israel is blowing up various chunks of the capital city in response. Hezbollah has 12 of 128 seats in the Lebanese Parliament, so there's probably a fair amount of people who are less than amused with them running their own armed foreign policy and triggering major heat up in hostilities with Israel. And that's not even getting into the myriad sectarian and ethnic divisions in Lebanon.

    Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
  • LJDouglasLJDouglas Registered User regular
    While in isolation you could argue that it's the morally correct action for Egypt to let all the people of Gaza flee across their border to escape Israel's assault, that is expecting a single nation to accept 2 million refugees, when Israel's made abundantly clear they won't allow any of them back. That's an enormous burden to place on their own citizenry all because of the actions of another nation, plus as mentioned the likelihood that Israel would drop "precision" strikes on any neighbourhood they say might have someone they don't like in it. Alternatively Israel could just stop their slaughter at any point, or at least go back to the more acceptable levels of slaughter they've been keeping up the last few decades.

  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    Oh yeah, I totally understand Egypt not wanting to face tank that many refugees. But Egypt does control Rafah and could go 'fuck your feelings' to their agreement with Israel regarding restricting goods and people through there. Same as the USA could cut off arms shipments to Israel if they wanted to, or Hezbollah could stop launching rockets at random civilian targets in Israel. To say nothing about the various things that Israel definitely is not doing that could actually lead to a peaceful settlement in the region.

    Israel and the USA are the big players, but that doesn't mean that nobody else in the region has agency.

    Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
  • ThawmusThawmus +Jackface Registered User regular
    I'd still circle back to the US not pledging to take on those refugees from Egypt if Egypt opens its borders. If we want to treat this like it's a viable option, then by all means, the US should step up to the plate.

    Since, y'know, we bear significant fucking responsibility. And if, y'know, we want to accept any sort of premise that the Biden admin gives a fuck.

    And that would still be called aiding and abetting a genocide, but hey, in for a penny!

    Twitch: Thawmus83
  • KelorKelor Registered User regular
    It is a specific remit of UNWRA to assist and record Palestinian families in order assist in their right to return.

    It's one of the major reasons Israel (and the US, see the pulling funding earlier this year) have been working to erase the organisation and replace it's function with an organisation that doesn't have that authority.

  • syndalissyndalis Getting Classy On the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Products regular
    So by all accounts it looks like Iran is going to launch ballistic missiles at Israel.

    Welp.

    I suspect they will be harder to ignore than the drone swarm they did last time.

    SW-4158-3990-6116
    Let's play Mario Kart or something...
  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    Eh, there's a lot of stories about the USA saying that Iran is going to launch and that they really shouldn't do that. Could be a real thing Iran is about to do or it could be the USA trying to get ahead of any potential move by Iran on that front.

    Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
  • taliosfalcontaliosfalcon Registered User regular
    edited October 1
    daveNYC wrote: »
    Eh, there's a lot of stories about the USA saying that Iran is going to launch and that they really shouldn't do that. Could be a real thing Iran is about to do or it could be the USA trying to get ahead of any potential move by Iran on that front.
    I don't really see what alternatives Iran has now. It seems to have been very clearly stated by the US that any country is to let Israel bomb the fuck out of them without seriously fighting back or the us will step in, or voluntarily cease being a country at this point. Iran has to know their choices are to escalate and hope the resulting conflict is enough to cause a big enough global outcry to stop the US and Israel or just wait until the IDF gets down to them on their list of places to wipe off the map...

    taliosfalcon on
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  • Endless_SerpentsEndless_Serpents Registered User regular
    edited October 1
    “Greater Israel” is wherever they can get to before being stopped, so it’s definitely a tough choice. Fighting the US equals decades of destruction, but is it any better to wait out those years as slices are taken off the surrounding countries? Then what position will they be in? Can any nearby country expect to be in a better place in ten years if they’re not stopped now?

    The biggest problem is that it’s not a matter of conquest; Israel wants everyone else dead and instead have their people take over the land due to their religious beliefs. Which makes peace near impossible. Any end to current violence is a cease-fire, to be continued when possible. Not to say that the surrounding peoples are not now of a similar mindset due to the repeated acts of Israel since its creation.

    There would need to be a huge change in governance in Israel before anything like peace can begin. The near destruction of Gaza and the regular amount of violence on the West Bank is very hard to walk back from—which might be why they’re going all out to start with. I cannot begin to imagine what’s left of Palestine as a nation right now. Because let’s be real, if and when Israel has time to clear up and build over the bodies, who’s settling there?

    The Palestinian area of Gaza Strip might well be 1/4 its prior size by the time things “settle down”.



    When every “buffer zone” is just the last place you bombed, when do you think the rockets aimed at Israel stop? This to me is the problem Israel made when the Black and Tans boots first hit the ground, continued through the apartheid of Palestinians and the kidnapping of Jewish Yemenite children all the way to today.

    When you want to kill all your neighbours, they will respond. So you must kill all your neighbours before they kill you. That’s the Israeli mindset.

    How you get out of that… I’m not sure. I’m really not confident I can compare it to anything else.

    Endless_Serpents on
  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    Netanyahu has been talking a lot of smack about Iran's leadership recently. Combined with Israel's ability, seemingly, to infiltrate into near wherever they want I wouldn't be overly surprised if there was some galaxy brained plan to take out Khamenei and/or the Guardian Council. With or without any attack from Iran's side. It'd be right in line with Israel's general 'smite our enemies now, worry about the consequences later' modus operandi.

    Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    edited October 1
    If you're in the region and Israel has you in its crosshairs what else are you supposed to do when the Israeli government views assassinating negotiators as an acceptable policy when they don't like the terms?

    Styrofoam Sammich on
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  • Endless_SerpentsEndless_Serpents Registered User regular
    Sorry gang, trying to work things out. I can’t say I added much there really. It’s just a difficult row of dominos to steer while they’re already falling.



    I’d just like to add I equally worry for the children of Israel as anyone. This path leads them into war before they’re even born.

  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    Via NBC News:
    Iran is expected to target military and government sites, not civilian, a senior White House official and Defense Department official said today.

    Oh, but also warning of "severe consequences" if they do so.

    Weird how Israel is allowed to conduct "limited operations" that raze an entire city to the ground in Gaza, and conduct "precise strikes" that level an entire city block and kill hundreds in Lebanon, but if Iran announces they're going to target some military sites of Israel, whoa buddy, that's a line too far.

  • ZibblsnrtZibblsnrt Registered User, Moderator mod
    BBC's reporting (briefly since it just happened) that Iran has launched.

  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    Jesus this has the potential to get so so so much worse

  • BlackDragon480BlackDragon480 Bluster Kerfuffle Master of Windy ImportRegistered User regular
    Here's hoping Dimona remains quiet, cause at this point it wouldn't surprise me if Bibi decided amimut is just too 20th century.

    No matter where you go...there you are.
    ~ Buckaroo Banzai
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