BlackDragon480Bluster KerfuffleMaster of Windy ImportRegistered Userregular
edited October 2
Untill the last week, I'd say the Harris/Walz campaign had done just.enough to not completely lose Dearborn and other dense packets of Arab diaspora and the Uncommited had their public turn of face to outright endorsing voting Dem. But now...the Lebanese-American population is a.wee bit larger (like an entire order of magnitude) than the Palestinian-American one with a strong political game in local and state affairs and Michigan maybe back to a toss up, at best.
BlackDragon480 on
No matter where you go...there you are. ~ Buckaroo Banzai
Untill the last week, I'd say the Harris/Walz campaign had done just.enough to not completely lose Dearborn and other dense packets of Arab diaspora and the Uncommited had their public turn of face to outright endorsing voting Dem. But now...the Lebanese-American population is a.wee bit larger (like an entire order of magnitude) than the Palestinian-American one with a strong political game in local and state affairs and Michigan maybe back to a toss up, at best.
It's probably not universal, and it probably depends on the specific backgrounds, but the local Lebanese community was very happy when Nasrallah died. It'll probably change once Israel starts killing civilians and those videos start making their way out.
Untill the last week, I'd say the Harris/Walz campaign had done just.enough to not completely lose Dearborn and other dense packets of Arab diaspora and the Uncommited had their public turn of face to outright endorsing voting Dem. But now...the Lebanese-American population is a.wee bit larger (like an entire order of magnitude) than the Palestinian-American one with a strong political game in local and state affairs and Michigan maybe back to a toss up, at best.
It's probably not universal, and it probably depends on the specific backgrounds, but the local Lebanese community was very happy when Nasrallah died. It'll probably change once Israel starts killing civilians and those videos start making their way out.
In my area and workplace its been more mixed. The dozen or so I've talked to certainly aren't weeping over Nasrallah getting rubbed out, but most are extremely pissed about how it was done and the amount of collateral damage (i.e. an entire residential block) from just that one sortie (majority of those I work with came from Beirut with a couple from way up in Tripoli).
As for the death of civilians/non-combatants, that started with the first round of pagers and radios and has continued apace as the overall operational theater has expanded, but there hasn't been much Westwrn media coverage, I'll grant ya, save for random clips of the pager attack.
No matter where you go...there you are. ~ Buckaroo Banzai
Untill the last week, I'd say the Harris/Walz campaign had done just.enough to not completely lose Dearborn and other dense packets of Arab diaspora and the Uncommited had their public turn of face to outright endorsing voting Dem. But now...the Lebanese-American population is a.wee bit larger (like an entire order of magnitude) than the Palestinian-American one with a strong political game in local and state affairs and Michigan maybe back to a toss up, at best.
It's probably not universal, and it probably depends on the specific backgrounds, but the local Lebanese community was very happy when Nasrallah died. It'll probably change once Israel starts killing civilians and those videos start making their way out.
In my area and workplace its been more mixed. The dozen or so I've talked to certainly aren't weeping over Nasrallah getting rubbed out, but most are extremely pissed about how it was done and the amount of collateral damage (i.e. an entire residential block) from just that one sortie (majority of those I work with came from Beirut with a couple from way up in Tripoli).
As for the death of civilians/non-combatants, that started with the first round of pagers and radios and has continued apace as the overall operational theater has expanded, but there hasn't been much Westwrn media coverage, I'll grant ya, save for random clips of the pager attack.
It's 💯 this, no one at all would have begrudged Israel if, 359 days ago, they embarked a narrow campaign of targeted operations and assassinations.
It's precisely the utter lack of concern for the civilian populations that makes the campaigns in Gaza, Rafah, the West Bank, and now Lebanon writ large -- incredibly reprehensible and fraught -- makes me totally batty with respect to how much people give Biden a pass for wholly lacking the moral rectitude to make any sort of stand against what's happening, whatsoever -- and rather than just agree our response and further enabling this whole scenario is total shit they hallucinate whole scenarios where somehow it could be 'worse' than the outcome that's already happened.
And I really really feel grim about the intergenerational consequences of all of this. This whole year has sown some horrible resentment that will only lead to further terror and insecurity, both in Israel and also god forbid here too.
On Lebanese reactions, what I see is a country that rather not get dragged on this war at all, not only because Hezbollah are a bunch of assholes bullying the rest of the country into it, but that actions done "For Palestine" tend to, by amazing coincidence, match with Iranian interests.
So they see themselves dragged into this mess of cold blooded realpolitik instead of just doing what the rest of the Arab League does and sign a deal to stay away from it.
Add a spice of sectarianism "Shia Muslims are dragging us into getting bombed" and the uselessness of the UN, that was supposed to keep this from happening again after 2006, and you get Southern Lebanon basically left to their fate. So 50/50 a civil war happens anyways after Israel is done.
I'm sure Lebanese people don't want a war with Israel, because they can see that Israel is just going to murder civilians indiscriminately.
Of course all 'For Palestine' causes seem to support Iranian interests, because they're against Israel their rival power in the area. It's not some grand Iranian conspiracy.
All the For Palestine causes do not support Iranian interests. Fatah and the PLO are aligned with Saudi. Hamas was aligned with Saudi in the early days, but that ended in the mid 2000s when the US pressured Saudi to stop supporting them though relations have started to normalize again.
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Lord_AsmodeusgoeticSobriquet:Here is your magical cryptic riddle-tumour: I AM A TIME MACHINERegistered Userregular
All the For Palestine causes do not support Iranian interests. Fatah and the PLO are aligned with Saudi. Hamas was aligned with Saudi in the early days, but that ended in the mid 2000s when the US pressured Saudi to stop supporting them though relations have started to normalize again.
How about, the biggest drivers of the For Palestine cause in Lebanon support Iranian interests.
Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if Labor had not first existed. Labor is superior to capital, and deserves much the higher consideration. - Lincoln
I didn't say it was a grand conspiracy, I said that what I'm reading from the Lebanese is several degrees of "Hezbollah got us bombed for Iran". In the specific case of Lebanon, it is for Iranian interests.
I didn't say it was a grand conspiracy, I said that what I'm reading from the Lebanese is several degrees of "Hezbollah got us bombed for Iran". In the specific case of Lebanon, it is for Iranian interests.
I think it's pretty gross to declare that anyone in Lebanon who feels strong solidarity with Palestinians is just an Iranian puppet.
I didn't say it was a grand conspiracy, I said that what I'm reading from the Lebanese is several degrees of "Hezbollah got us bombed for Iran". In the specific case of Lebanon, it is for Iranian interests.
I think it's pretty gross to declare that anyone in Lebanon who feels strong solidarity with Palestinians is just an Iranian puppet.
It's the old enemy is weak but strong
Surely the third incursion into Lebadon will work this time we got rid of the leader again it'll work trust me
Except now sleepy Joe's got his Iranian war once Israel retaliates cause he is incredibly useless
I didn't say it was a grand conspiracy, I said that what I'm reading from the Lebanese is several degrees of "Hezbollah got us bombed for Iran". In the specific case of Lebanon, it is for Iranian interests.
I think it's pretty gross to declare that anyone in Lebanon who feels strong solidarity with Palestinians is just an Iranian puppet.
This thread has had a hard time accepting that any of the regional muslim groups fighting Iran might be doing so on behalf of Palestine.
+9
daveNYCWhy universe hate Waspinator?Registered Userregular
I didn't say it was a grand conspiracy, I said that what I'm reading from the Lebanese is several degrees of "Hezbollah got us bombed for Iran". In the specific case of Lebanon, it is for Iranian interests.
I think it's pretty gross to declare that anyone in Lebanon who feels strong solidarity with Palestinians is just an Iranian puppet.
I imagine that it's theoretically possible for you to have constructed a response that was in even less bad faith than what you did come up with, but it probably would have taken a bit of work. Like there's a pretty fucking clear difference between solidarity with Palestine and launching enough ordnance across the border that Israel starts bombing the shit out of the country. Especially when the ordnance throwers are using their private, foreign funded, and not accountable to the government army to do so.
What's gross, for lack of the more accurate descriptions denied by the glorious edict, is taking the rather unremarkable statement that the people of Lebanon might not be particularly happy about Hezbollah getting into a war with Israel in order to further Iranian interests and going 'Why do you hate Palestinians so much?'
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
Also is very easy to cheer on "solidarity" (in the form of rockets against civilian areas) when you aren't being strong armed into it or paying the costs. Lebanese society as a whole didn't took the decision to wage a war on Israel, they were forced to by a cartel backed by foreign interests.
I didn't say it was a grand conspiracy, I said that what I'm reading from the Lebanese is several degrees of "Hezbollah got us bombed for Iran". In the specific case of Lebanon, it is for Iranian interests.
I think it's pretty gross to declare that anyone in Lebanon who feels strong solidarity with Palestinians is just an Iranian puppet.
This thread has had a hard time accepting that any of the regional muslim groups fighting Iran might be doing so on behalf of Palestine.
You mean Israel, right? Not Iran?
Typically people are exceptionally reluctant to start or get drawn into wars with major powers that can bring overwhelming force against them even when they are bound by treaties and alliances to do so.
The idea that the Lebanese people want to fight Israel out of solidarity with the Palestinian people is very <citation needed>.
It probably depends on who you are in Lebanon. Lebanon is about a third Sunni, a third Christian, and a third Shiite, and the former two give no fucks what Israel does to Hezbollah provided there isn’t spillover. That is a big if, though.
It probably depends on who you are in Lebanon. Lebanon is about a third Sunni, a third Christian, and a third Shiite, and the former two give no fucks what Israel does to Hezbollah provided there isn’t spillover. That is a big if, though.
Agreed.
If Israel is being surgical enough, any damage to Hezbollah would be met with
"That's terrible, just terrible." from large portions of Lebanon.
Surgical hasn't been Israel's style for a while at this point.
Hell I doubt Bibi wants surgical. Surgical doesn't piss people off and generate more enemies so you have an excuse to always remain in power.
I didn't say it was a grand conspiracy, I said that what I'm reading from the Lebanese is several degrees of "Hezbollah got us bombed for Iran". In the specific case of Lebanon, it is for Iranian interests.
I think it's pretty gross to declare that anyone in Lebanon who feels strong solidarity with Palestinians is just an Iranian puppet.
This thread has had a hard time accepting that any of the regional muslim groups fighting Iran might be doing so on behalf of Palestine.
You mean Israel, right? Not Iran?
Typically people are exceptionally reluctant to start or get drawn into wars with major powers that can bring overwhelming force against them even when they are bound by treaties and alliances to do so.
The idea that the Lebanese people want to fight Israel out of solidarity with the Palestinian people is very <citation needed>.
The Lebanese people are second only to Palestinians in being bullied by Israel. While Lebanon isn't interested in a war with Israel over Palestinian abuses, they absolutely will become allies against Israel once peace is no longer a viable option. The enemy of my enemy...
Netanyahu is doing everything he can to build an anti-Israel coalition in the Middle East, and is sacrificing future peace and prosperity in the region just to keep himself in power.
I didn't say it was a grand conspiracy, I said that what I'm reading from the Lebanese is several degrees of "Hezbollah got us bombed for Iran". In the specific case of Lebanon, it is for Iranian interests.
I think it's pretty gross to declare that anyone in Lebanon who feels strong solidarity with Palestinians is just an Iranian puppet.
This thread has had a hard time accepting that any of the regional muslim groups fighting Iran might be doing so on behalf of Palestine.
You mean Israel, right? Not Iran?
Typically people are exceptionally reluctant to start or get drawn into wars with major powers that can bring overwhelming force against them even when they are bound by treaties and alliances to do so.
The idea that the Lebanese people want to fight Israel out of solidarity with the Palestinian people is very <citation needed>.
The Lebanese people are second only to Palestinians in being bullied by Israel. While Lebanon isn't interested in a war with Israel over Palestinian abuses, they absolutely will become allies against Israel once peace is no longer a viable option. The enemy of my enemy...
Netanyahu is doing everything he can to build an anti-Israel coalition in the Middle East, and is sacrificing future peace and prosperity in the region just to keep himself in power.
It seems more and more like he's trying to do what he can to goad Iran and the United States into a war with one another.
I didn't say it was a grand conspiracy, I said that what I'm reading from the Lebanese is several degrees of "Hezbollah got us bombed for Iran". In the specific case of Lebanon, it is for Iranian interests.
I think it's pretty gross to declare that anyone in Lebanon who feels strong solidarity with Palestinians is just an Iranian puppet.
This thread has had a hard time accepting that any of the regional muslim groups fighting Iran might be doing so on behalf of Palestine.
You mean Israel, right? Not Iran?
Typically people are exceptionally reluctant to start or get drawn into wars with major powers that can bring overwhelming force against them even when they are bound by treaties and alliances to do so.
The idea that the Lebanese people want to fight Israel out of solidarity with the Palestinian people is very <citation needed>.
The Lebanese people are second only to Palestinians in being bullied by Israel. While Lebanon isn't interested in a war with Israel over Palestinian abuses, they absolutely will become allies against Israel once peace is no longer a viable option. The enemy of my enemy...
Netanyahu is doing everything he can to build an anti-Israel coalition in the Middle East, and is sacrificing future peace and prosperity in the region just to keep himself in power.
It seems more and more like he's trying to do what he can to goad Iran and the United States into a war with one another.
Netanyahu was barely able to build a governing coalition in 2022, and had to make huge concessions to the ultra conservative factions to do so. Israeli law requires that elections be held a maximum of 4 years from the previous election, unless suspended under emergency powers. So he needs to be at war with someone in order to declare a state of emergency and suspend the elections.
It is, unfortunately, a well worn path for a democracy to fall into a dictatorship.
Netanyahu violated Israeli laws by interfering with their judicial system in 2023, which he was forced to do by the ultra-conservatives he is in bed with. And he's had other blatantly illegal activities like political appointees to civil positions that they were unsuitable for (lacked legally required experience and education). The only reason he hasn't been arrested is because his ultra-conservative coalition passed a law granting him immunity while he was mid-judicial interference. As soon as elections happen, Netanyahu will lose that immunity as he and his coalition are deeply unpopular. Both his party and his coalition are facing deep losses in Knesset due to their unpopularity, and won't be able to retain enough seats to build a coalition.
As an example of the kind of concessions he's had to make, the ultra-conservatives have in the past managed to exclude their members from the otherwise mandatory military service. The Israeli courts were going to strip this immunity, which is why he had to step in. These are the same ultra-conservatives that are the strongest supports of the Palestinian genocide, and speaks directly to their hypocrisy in that they are only willing to risk the lives of others for their beliefs.
Also is very easy to cheer on "solidarity" (in the form of rockets against civilian areas) when you aren't being strong armed into it or paying the costs. Lebanese society as a whole didn't took the decision to wage a war on Israel, they were forced to by a cartel backed by foreign interests.
You just created your own definition of solidarity in order to decry it.
Just as egregious is the disservice you do to the empathy and resilence of the Lebanese people to suggest that their solidarity with Palestine is the result of Iranian influence.
I had a lengthy response composed that was lost to the draft ether, but in short: violence is not required to show solidarity, expressions of solidarity that cease when you become inconvenienced are performative and hollow, and it's the easiest thing in the world to understand why the Lebanese people would have solidarity with Palestinians, when both of them have suffered violent occupation by Israel.
Also is very easy to cheer on "solidarity" (in the form of rockets against civilian areas) when you aren't being strong armed into it or paying the costs. Lebanese society as a whole didn't took the decision to wage a war on Israel, they were forced to by a cartel backed by foreign interests.
You just created your own definition of solidarity in order to decry it.
Just as egregious is the disservice you do to the empathy and resilence of the Lebanese people to suggest that their solidarity with Palestine is the result of Iranian influence.
I had a lengthy response composed that was lost to the draft ether, but in short: violence is not required to show solidarity, expressions of solidarity that cease when you become inconvenienced are performative and hollow, and it's the easiest thing in the world to understand why the Lebanese people would have solidarity with Palestinians, when both of them have suffered violent occupation by Israel.
Inconvenienced? Fucking what Lebanon is dealing with is ‘inconvenienced’?
Bold words for a rando posting on an Internet forum.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
Also is very easy to cheer on "solidarity" (in the form of rockets against civilian areas) when you aren't being strong armed into it or paying the costs. Lebanese society as a whole didn't took the decision to wage a war on Israel, they were forced to by a cartel backed by foreign interests.
You just created your own definition of solidarity in order to decry it.
Just as egregious is the disservice you do to the empathy and resilence of the Lebanese people to suggest that their solidarity with Palestine is the result of Iranian influence.
I had a lengthy response composed that was lost to the draft ether, but in short: violence is not required to show solidarity, expressions of solidarity that cease when you become inconvenienced are performative and hollow, and it's the easiest thing in the world to understand why the Lebanese people would have solidarity with Palestinians, when both of them have suffered violent occupation by Israel.
The Israeli detonation of the Hezbollah's pagers injured the Iranian ambassador to Lebanon. Iran is a known supporter of Hezbollah providing them with funding and military equipment, in addition to social works in Lebanon like building nearly 100 schools, hospitals, and even launching a TV station. It is not hard to see Iran's influence in Lebanon.
Lebanon hasn't shown solidarity with the Palestinians outside of Palestinian ex-patriots in Lebanon, most of whom are descended from those were displaced after the war of 1966. Both groups have been sorely abused by Israel, but they aren't actively cooperating against Israel. Lebanon also has a much more diverse population than Palestinians, with about one third of Lebanese being Shia Muslim and another third being Sunni, versus Palestinians who are around 75% Sunni and 10% Shia Muslim. The common ground needed to build real solidarity doesn't exist. The enemy of my enemy makes for temporary allies, but isn't a sufficient foundation to build the mutual beliefs and unity of vision that solidarity implies.
Also is very easy to cheer on "solidarity" (in the form of rockets against civilian areas) when you aren't being strong armed into it or paying the costs. Lebanese society as a whole didn't took the decision to wage a war on Israel, they were forced to by a cartel backed by foreign interests.
You just created your own definition of solidarity in order to decry it.
Just as egregious is the disservice you do to the empathy and resilence of the Lebanese people to suggest that their solidarity with Palestine is the result of Iranian influence.
I had a lengthy response composed that was lost to the draft ether, but in short: violence is not required to show solidarity, expressions of solidarity that cease when you become inconvenienced are performative and hollow, and it's the easiest thing in the world to understand why the Lebanese people would have solidarity with Palestinians, when both of them have suffered violent occupation by Israel.
Inconvenienced? Fucking what Lebanon is dealing with is ‘inconvenienced’?
Bold words for a rando posting on an Internet forum.
That would be my wording left over from my thoughts from that longer post that was lost. Seeing how that reads poorly in isolation, allow me to reconstruct some of the original intended context.
Solidarity with Palestine does not necessitate violent action against Israel, any more than solidarity with striking workers necessitate violent action against corporations.
Shows of solidarity are meaningful because they persist even through hardship. If you express solidarity solidarity with striking workers, but then start saying they should get back to work when you become inconvenienced in your daily life by the effects of their strike, you were not really showing solidarity, you were just a performative ally.
Now of course, being displaced from your home and/or having your home destroyed is more serious than the expected hardships from a supply chain bottleneck from a worker's strike, but all the same, to act like people would naturally stop expressing solidarity after experiencing these hardships without foreign meddling is to question the sincerity of people's solidarity in the first place.
All of that said, this is still me pushing back against the false idea that Lebanese solidarity is necessarily violent and also propagated by Iran, not me trying to write a grand treatise on the nature of solidarity. Lebanon was not attacked because of their solidarity with Palestine, but even were that so, their solidarity is genuine, so one should not expect their support for Palestine to evaporate when Lebanon also becomes a target for Israeli aggression.
I unequivocally condemn Iran’s reckless and brazen attack against Israel today.
Israel, with our assistance, was able to defeat the attack. Our cooperation saved many lives.
My commitment to the security of Israel is unwavering. And we will never hesitate to defend U.S. forces and interests against Iran.
Official VP account with a statement from Kamala Harris on Oct 1.
“I’m clear-eyed Iran is a destabilising, dangerous force in the Middle East,” Harris said. “I will always ensure Israel has the ability to defend itself against Iran and Iran-backed terrorist militias.”
“I fully support President (Joe) Biden’s order for the US military to shoot down Iranian missiles targeting Israel,” Harris said. “Initial indications are that Israel, with our assistance, was able to defeat this attack.”
Harris added that Washington will work with its allies to disrupt what she called Iran’s “aggressive behavior.”
Posting it here, though 50/50 the Election thread gets locked anyways. That said, the US is all in.
John McCain has been haunting the capitol and everyone knows the way you get rid of a ghost is to help it finish its affairs.
Or is it CIA pretending to be the Ghost of John McCain? Because that definitely sounds like a CIA plot.
"The western world sips from a poisonous cocktail: Polarisation, populism, protectionism and post-truth"
-Antje Jackelén, Archbishop of the Church of Sweden
Israel could target Iranian oil refineries in retaliation for Tuesday night’s attack, in which Tehran launched an estimated 180 ballistic missiles at Tel Aviv and other targets across the country in a dramatic escalation of the conflict between the two countries.
The US website Axios has reported that Israeli officials are considering a “significant retaliation” to the Iranian attack within days that could target oil production facilities inside Iran and other strategic sites.
Israeli officials are understood to be conferring with the US on how to calibrate their military response, which could propel the Middle East closer to the brink of a regional war.
Iran has expressly said prior to the missile strikes yesterday that targeting of their refineries and infrastructure will result in them doing the the same to all unaligned nations in the region, presumably massively spiking the cost of oil a month before the election.
Israel could target Iranian oil refineries in retaliation for Tuesday night’s attack, in which Tehran launched an estimated 180 ballistic missiles at Tel Aviv and other targets across the country in a dramatic escalation of the conflict between the two countries.
The US website Axios has reported that Israeli officials are considering a “significant retaliation” to the Iranian attack within days that could target oil production facilities inside Iran and other strategic sites.
Israeli officials are understood to be conferring with the US on how to calibrate their military response, which could propel the Middle East closer to the brink of a regional war.
Iran has expressly said prior to the missile strikes yesterday that targeting of their refineries and infrastructure will result in them doing the the same to all unaligned nations in the region, presumably massively spiking the cost of oil a month before the election.
And there would be the excuse the US uses to go to war with Iran.
+1
RingoHe/Hima distinct lack of substanceRegistered Userregular
War in the Middle East, always a huge Democratic vote getter
Israel could target Iranian oil refineries in retaliation for Tuesday night’s attack, in which Tehran launched an estimated 180 ballistic missiles at Tel Aviv and other targets across the country in a dramatic escalation of the conflict between the two countries.
The US website Axios has reported that Israeli officials are considering a “significant retaliation” to the Iranian attack within days that could target oil production facilities inside Iran and other strategic sites.
Israeli officials are understood to be conferring with the US on how to calibrate their military response, which could propel the Middle East closer to the brink of a regional war.
Iran has expressly said prior to the missile strikes yesterday that targeting of their refineries and infrastructure will result in them doing the the same to all unaligned nations in the region, presumably massively spiking the cost of oil a month before the election.
Military strikes against refineries in the Gulf States seems like a … bold strategy to say the least.
“We just want to make sure that we don’t have any allies in the region, just incase someone started feeling sympathy for the Palestinians or something”.
Israel could target Iranian oil refineries in retaliation for Tuesday night’s attack, in which Tehran launched an estimated 180 ballistic missiles at Tel Aviv and other targets across the country in a dramatic escalation of the conflict between the two countries.
The US website Axios has reported that Israeli officials are considering a “significant retaliation” to the Iranian attack within days that could target oil production facilities inside Iran and other strategic sites.
Israeli officials are understood to be conferring with the US on how to calibrate their military response, which could propel the Middle East closer to the brink of a regional war.
Iran has expressly said prior to the missile strikes yesterday that targeting of their refineries and infrastructure will result in them doing the the same to all unaligned nations in the region, presumably massively spiking the cost of oil a month before the election.
Military strikes against refineries in the Gulf States seems like a … bold strategy to say the least.
“We just want to make sure that we don’t have any allies in the region, just incase someone started feeling sympathy for the Palestinians or something”.
"Or that the US didn't have an excuse to Label us a 'Rogue Nation' and attack us with say two Carrier groups, just in case they've been carrying a grudge for 40 years or something."
Israel could target Iranian oil refineries in retaliation for Tuesday night’s attack, in which Tehran launched an estimated 180 ballistic missiles at Tel Aviv and other targets across the country in a dramatic escalation of the conflict between the two countries.
The US website Axios has reported that Israeli officials are considering a “significant retaliation” to the Iranian attack within days that could target oil production facilities inside Iran and other strategic sites.
Israeli officials are understood to be conferring with the US on how to calibrate their military response, which could propel the Middle East closer to the brink of a regional war.
Iran has expressly said prior to the missile strikes yesterday that targeting of their refineries and infrastructure will result in them doing the the same to all unaligned nations in the region, presumably massively spiking the cost of oil a month before the election.
Military strikes against refineries in the Gulf States seems like a … bold strategy to say the least.
“We just want to make sure that we don’t have any allies in the region, just incase someone started feeling sympathy for the Palestinians or something”.
Posts
Harris has little time left to decide whether she would rather run on a continuation of Biden's war crimes enabling, or if she wants to win Michigan.
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
~ Buckaroo Banzai
It's probably not universal, and it probably depends on the specific backgrounds, but the local Lebanese community was very happy when Nasrallah died. It'll probably change once Israel starts killing civilians and those videos start making their way out.
In my area and workplace its been more mixed. The dozen or so I've talked to certainly aren't weeping over Nasrallah getting rubbed out, but most are extremely pissed about how it was done and the amount of collateral damage (i.e. an entire residential block) from just that one sortie (majority of those I work with came from Beirut with a couple from way up in Tripoli).
As for the death of civilians/non-combatants, that started with the first round of pagers and radios and has continued apace as the overall operational theater has expanded, but there hasn't been much Westwrn media coverage, I'll grant ya, save for random clips of the pager attack.
~ Buckaroo Banzai
It's 💯 this, no one at all would have begrudged Israel if, 359 days ago, they embarked a narrow campaign of targeted operations and assassinations.
It's precisely the utter lack of concern for the civilian populations that makes the campaigns in Gaza, Rafah, the West Bank, and now Lebanon writ large -- incredibly reprehensible and fraught -- makes me totally batty with respect to how much people give Biden a pass for wholly lacking the moral rectitude to make any sort of stand against what's happening, whatsoever -- and rather than just agree our response and further enabling this whole scenario is total shit they hallucinate whole scenarios where somehow it could be 'worse' than the outcome that's already happened.
And I really really feel grim about the intergenerational consequences of all of this. This whole year has sown some horrible resentment that will only lead to further terror and insecurity, both in Israel and also god forbid here too.
So they see themselves dragged into this mess of cold blooded realpolitik instead of just doing what the rest of the Arab League does and sign a deal to stay away from it.
Add a spice of sectarianism "Shia Muslims are dragging us into getting bombed" and the uselessness of the UN, that was supposed to keep this from happening again after 2006, and you get Southern Lebanon basically left to their fate. So 50/50 a civil war happens anyways after Israel is done.
Of course all 'For Palestine' causes seem to support Iranian interests, because they're against Israel their rival power in the area. It's not some grand Iranian conspiracy.
{Twitter, Everybody's doing it. }{Writing and Story Blog}
How about, the biggest drivers of the For Palestine cause in Lebanon support Iranian interests.
I think it's pretty gross to declare that anyone in Lebanon who feels strong solidarity with Palestinians is just an Iranian puppet.
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
It's the old enemy is weak but strong
Surely the third incursion into Lebadon will work this time we got rid of the leader again it'll work trust me
Except now sleepy Joe's got his Iranian war once Israel retaliates cause he is incredibly useless
This thread has had a hard time accepting that any of the regional muslim groups fighting Iran might be doing so on behalf of Palestine.
I imagine that it's theoretically possible for you to have constructed a response that was in even less bad faith than what you did come up with, but it probably would have taken a bit of work. Like there's a pretty fucking clear difference between solidarity with Palestine and launching enough ordnance across the border that Israel starts bombing the shit out of the country. Especially when the ordnance throwers are using their private, foreign funded, and not accountable to the government army to do so.
What's gross, for lack of the more accurate descriptions denied by the glorious edict, is taking the rather unremarkable statement that the people of Lebanon might not be particularly happy about Hezbollah getting into a war with Israel in order to further Iranian interests and going 'Why do you hate Palestinians so much?'
You mean Israel, right? Not Iran?
Typically people are exceptionally reluctant to start or get drawn into wars with major powers that can bring overwhelming force against them even when they are bound by treaties and alliances to do so.
The idea that the Lebanese people want to fight Israel out of solidarity with the Palestinian people is very <citation needed>.
Agreed.
If Israel is being surgical enough, any damage to Hezbollah would be met with
"That's terrible, just terrible." from large portions of Lebanon.
Surgical hasn't been Israel's style for a while at this point.
Hell I doubt Bibi wants surgical. Surgical doesn't piss people off and generate more enemies so you have an excuse to always remain in power.
The Lebanese people are second only to Palestinians in being bullied by Israel. While Lebanon isn't interested in a war with Israel over Palestinian abuses, they absolutely will become allies against Israel once peace is no longer a viable option. The enemy of my enemy...
Netanyahu is doing everything he can to build an anti-Israel coalition in the Middle East, and is sacrificing future peace and prosperity in the region just to keep himself in power.
It seems more and more like he's trying to do what he can to goad Iran and the United States into a war with one another.
Netanyahu was barely able to build a governing coalition in 2022, and had to make huge concessions to the ultra conservative factions to do so. Israeli law requires that elections be held a maximum of 4 years from the previous election, unless suspended under emergency powers. So he needs to be at war with someone in order to declare a state of emergency and suspend the elections.
It is, unfortunately, a well worn path for a democracy to fall into a dictatorship.
Netanyahu violated Israeli laws by interfering with their judicial system in 2023, which he was forced to do by the ultra-conservatives he is in bed with. And he's had other blatantly illegal activities like political appointees to civil positions that they were unsuitable for (lacked legally required experience and education). The only reason he hasn't been arrested is because his ultra-conservative coalition passed a law granting him immunity while he was mid-judicial interference. As soon as elections happen, Netanyahu will lose that immunity as he and his coalition are deeply unpopular. Both his party and his coalition are facing deep losses in Knesset due to their unpopularity, and won't be able to retain enough seats to build a coalition.
As an example of the kind of concessions he's had to make, the ultra-conservatives have in the past managed to exclude their members from the otherwise mandatory military service. The Israeli courts were going to strip this immunity, which is why he had to step in. These are the same ultra-conservatives that are the strongest supports of the Palestinian genocide, and speaks directly to their hypocrisy in that they are only willing to risk the lives of others for their beliefs.
You just created your own definition of solidarity in order to decry it.
Just as egregious is the disservice you do to the empathy and resilence of the Lebanese people to suggest that their solidarity with Palestine is the result of Iranian influence.
I had a lengthy response composed that was lost to the draft ether, but in short: violence is not required to show solidarity, expressions of solidarity that cease when you become inconvenienced are performative and hollow, and it's the easiest thing in the world to understand why the Lebanese people would have solidarity with Palestinians, when both of them have suffered violent occupation by Israel.
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Inconvenienced? Fucking what Lebanon is dealing with is ‘inconvenienced’?
Bold words for a rando posting on an Internet forum.
The Israeli detonation of the Hezbollah's pagers injured the Iranian ambassador to Lebanon. Iran is a known supporter of Hezbollah providing them with funding and military equipment, in addition to social works in Lebanon like building nearly 100 schools, hospitals, and even launching a TV station. It is not hard to see Iran's influence in Lebanon.
Lebanon hasn't shown solidarity with the Palestinians outside of Palestinian ex-patriots in Lebanon, most of whom are descended from those were displaced after the war of 1966. Both groups have been sorely abused by Israel, but they aren't actively cooperating against Israel. Lebanon also has a much more diverse population than Palestinians, with about one third of Lebanese being Shia Muslim and another third being Sunni, versus Palestinians who are around 75% Sunni and 10% Shia Muslim. The common ground needed to build real solidarity doesn't exist. The enemy of my enemy makes for temporary allies, but isn't a sufficient foundation to build the mutual beliefs and unity of vision that solidarity implies.
That would be my wording left over from my thoughts from that longer post that was lost. Seeing how that reads poorly in isolation, allow me to reconstruct some of the original intended context.
Solidarity with Palestine does not necessitate violent action against Israel, any more than solidarity with striking workers necessitate violent action against corporations.
Shows of solidarity are meaningful because they persist even through hardship. If you express solidarity solidarity with striking workers, but then start saying they should get back to work when you become inconvenienced in your daily life by the effects of their strike, you were not really showing solidarity, you were just a performative ally.
Now of course, being displaced from your home and/or having your home destroyed is more serious than the expected hardships from a supply chain bottleneck from a worker's strike, but all the same, to act like people would naturally stop expressing solidarity after experiencing these hardships without foreign meddling is to question the sincerity of people's solidarity in the first place.
All of that said, this is still me pushing back against the false idea that Lebanese solidarity is necessarily violent and also propagated by Iran, not me trying to write a grand treatise on the nature of solidarity. Lebanon was not attacked because of their solidarity with Palestine, but even were that so, their solidarity is genuine, so one should not expect their support for Palestine to evaporate when Lebanon also becomes a target for Israeli aggression.
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More details:
Posting it here, though 50/50 the Election thread gets locked anyways. That said, the US is all in.
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JOHN BOLTON WHERE ARE YOU!? MOTHERFUCKER I CAN SMELL YOUR STENCH!
John Bolton or should I say *pulls his mask off* Rumsfeld and Cheney in a trenchcoat.
Or is it CIA pretending to be the Ghost of John McCain? Because that definitely sounds like a CIA plot.
-Antje Jackelén, Archbishop of the Church of Sweden
Iran has expressly said prior to the missile strikes yesterday that targeting of their refineries and infrastructure will result in them doing the the same to all unaligned nations in the region, presumably massively spiking the cost of oil a month before the election.
And there would be the excuse the US uses to go to war with Iran.
Military strikes against refineries in the Gulf States seems like a … bold strategy to say the least.
“We just want to make sure that we don’t have any allies in the region, just incase someone started feeling sympathy for the Palestinians or something”.
"Or that the US didn't have an excuse to Label us a 'Rogue Nation' and attack us with say two Carrier groups, just in case they've been carrying a grudge for 40 years or something."
Writer for several Foreign Affairs sites.