In general I don't find airing out these grievances to be very useful. I'm not going to try and deal with how I feel about the other posters and they feel about me, I don't care outside of our disagreements in the politics threads and it's fine.
But bringing up grievances with a mod is kind of relevant unless he's not working on the future then I don't give a shit about problems with Jeffe. The retired mod status makes things confusing especially when he occasionally posts in threads with the mod authority.
Outside I think of helping of maybe clearing spam I don't think Jeffe has mod posted since retiring.
Also new forums we can shift it so there aren't those badges but the mods can keep their own little chat thread.
Also Jeffe's long career and watching this forum over different epochs I think is useful insight for the current mods charting new waters. Also he has been here as long or longer than most folks. His voice and concerns about the next step hold as much weight as any of ours.
People really should just stop obsessing about a stupid title.
I don't think I've heard a single person ever have a problem with it till the big blow up that ran geebs off in the spring. And then suddenly it was an urgent priority for some reason.
In general I don't find airing out these grievances to be very useful. I'm not going to try and deal with how I feel about the other posters and they feel about me, I don't care outside of our disagreements in the politics threads and it's fine.
But bringing up grievances with a mod is kind of relevant unless he's not working on the future then I don't give a shit about problems with Jeffe. The retired mod status makes things confusing especially when he occasionally posts in threads with the mod authority.
has Eljeffe been making mod decrees in threads, or are we just talking about him interjecting in threads in general?
He will occasionally make GDST and then move the discussion there like he's a mod, not like infracting people.
In general I don't find airing out these grievances to be very useful. I'm not going to try and deal with how I feel about the other posters and they feel about me, I don't care outside of our disagreements in the politics threads and it's fine.
But bringing up grievances with a mod is kind of relevant unless he's not working on the future then I don't give a shit about problems with Jeffe. The retired mod status makes things confusing especially when he occasionally posts in threads with the mod authority.
has Eljeffe been making mod decrees in threads, or are we just talking about him interjecting in threads in general?
He will occasionally make GDST and then move the discussion there like he's a mod, not like infracting people.
That's like...not a mod thing, that's how GDSTs spin off.
You could think it's metamodding (and i guess it kinda / sorta is whenever anyone does it) but it's something pretty much anyone who feels like it / feels it's appropriate can do and often does. I've done that probably a dozen times since GDSTs became a thing.
From my point of view, the reason I think SE++ needs to have it's own space on the new forums is out of kindness. Even if the edict is removed (and I think it should be) if the forums were joined then under any set of rules that are actually applied a small but important set of SE++ regulars, and yes I certainly mean Lanz just to not dance around the issue, would quickly get themselves banned. I am sure they would have excellent reasons about the moral rightness of their position in whatever it is that gets them banned but it would happen. No matter how lenient the set of rules, at some point some restriction or another would come to represent the oppression of someone and transgressing it would become a moral imperative.
I don't want to see Lanz or any of them banned. And with nuforums the primary reason they continually pissed me off so much has gone away. To whit: the attitude in SE++ that they are the Main Character of the forums and if SE++ goes down then you might as well burn everything else down with it. Leave me to my D&D [chat] (which, by traffic and numbers, is the larger community) and let SE++ have a space where they can violate the rules when they feel they need to and the mods let that be.
Someone should really make a timeline with what needs figured out when, I don't think having a bunch of chat thread pie in the sky dreams is a viable strategy.
Someone should probably take a good luck at the cheapest v bulletin board you can find and figure out how much they costs per month, and then do a survey monkey survey or something to see how many people are interested in moving to the new place.
This is a water cooler chat thread, people can be mad about things literally anywhere
We are working on it! Forward motion is happening.
Where? Has anyone like nominated a steering committee?
Current start is the mod team. There is a thread here with folks working on management. Spool32 who has experience running a similar online community, establishing the non-profit, and setting up the board and the legal stuff around it has volunteered to help PM the move as well.
The pitch in thread is gathering folks with skills willing to help as well.
In general I don't find airing out these grievances to be very useful. I'm not going to try and deal with how I feel about the other posters and they feel about me, I don't care outside of our disagreements in the politics threads and it's fine.
But bringing up grievances with a mod is kind of relevant unless he's not working on the future then I don't give a shit about problems with Jeffe. The retired mod status makes things confusing especially when he occasionally posts in threads with the mod authority.
has Eljeffe been making mod decrees in threads, or are we just talking about him interjecting in threads in general?
He will occasionally make GDST and then move the discussion there like he's a mod, not like infracting people.
I have done this.
This is just a thing that D&D does.
The most recent one I could find was from back in May on the ethics around voting.
One of the first things written in the OP was
“So here is an unofficial, non-mod-sanctioned thread to talk about that stuff so that the congress thread can get back to discussing congress”
I'm gonna suggest something that, while I don't think is a magic cure all solution, but a good first step in closing the gap in the rift.
Whatever the DnD successor forum winds up being, it really shouldn't have Debate in it's name. That inherently implies taking adversarial stances is okay and welcome, and some topics just...shouldn't have them. Full stop. Be completely generic and bland and call it "The On Topic Forum" if you have to. But managing the idea and expectation that you can always get away with arguing something if you stick to approved rhetoric and your opinion has a place to be shared just because you have one is, lets say, counter productive, and not really what the sub forum is meant to be about (at least in my experience and understanding over the years).
I don’t think that’s necessary, as it stands people don’t take adversarial stances to be contrary, just often have different opinions on motivations or on solutions.
And often those disagreements aren’t a complete 180 degree difference of opinion. More often it’s a difference of degree. The divide comes when people won’t tolerate deviation from what they consider the only solution, or when people interpret disagreement to be the same as being told they can’t have their opinion.
Sure but it ties back into the "don't be a dick" enforcement. For example, telling a trans person who can't bring themselves to vote for a party/candidate that is eroding their rights, that they are being dumb or self sabotaging or whatever, is, at it's core, dickish behavior, even if coming from a place of "I am trying to help you help yourself". There are ways to have that conversation with people, and very, very often those kinds of interactions turn very hostile because the start of it could have justified a quick bop on the nose for the person trying to be helpful and supportive in a somewhat dickish manner and turns confrontational (and the oppressed person is far more likely to break sooner and eat a mod action, due to ya know, being oppressed). Then both parties walk away feeling very aggrieved. The one trying to be helpful seeing the target of their support as irrational and hostile, and the oppressed party seeing the other person as willing to sell out their rights.
This has become a very recurring thing over the past decade or so, and is one example of generating pretty huge rifts between folks who are otherwise way closer to allies than adversaries.
From my point of view, the reason I think SE++ needs to have it's own space on the new forums is out of kindness. Even if the edict is removed (and I think it should be) if the forums were joined then under any set of rules that are actually applied a small but important set of SE++ regulars, and yes I certainly mean Lanz just to not dance around the issue, would quickly get themselves banned. I am sure they would have excellent reasons about the moral rightness of their position in whatever it is that gets them banned but it would happen. No matter how lenient the set of rules, at some point some restriction or another would come to represent the oppression of someone and transgressing it would become a moral imperative.
I don't want to see Lanz or any of them banned. And with nuforums the primary reason they continually pissed me off so much has gone away. To whit: the attitude in SE++ that they are the Main Character of the forums and if SE++ goes down then you might as well burn everything else down with it. Leave me to my D&D [chat] (which, by traffic and numbers, is the larger community) and let SE++ have a space where they can violate the rules when they feel they need to and the mods let that be.
can we just ban riemannlives now if we're going to get this masturbatory kind of post here
In general I don't find airing out these grievances to be very useful. I'm not going to try and deal with how I feel about the other posters and they feel about me, I don't care outside of our disagreements in the politics threads and it's fine.
But bringing up grievances with a mod is kind of relevant unless he's not working on the future then I don't give a shit about problems with Jeffe. The retired mod status makes things confusing especially when he occasionally posts in threads with the mod authority.
has Eljeffe been making mod decrees in threads, or are we just talking about him interjecting in threads in general?
He will occasionally make GDST and then move the discussion there like he's a mod, not like infracting people.
Thanks, that seems pretty egregious and I had no idea.
heck, I've made GDSTs and I'm possibly one of the most timid, inconsequential people here :P
In general I don't find airing out these grievances to be very useful. I'm not going to try and deal with how I feel about the other posters and they feel about me, I don't care outside of our disagreements in the politics threads and it's fine.
But bringing up grievances with a mod is kind of relevant unless he's not working on the future then I don't give a shit about problems with Jeffe. The retired mod status makes things confusing especially when he occasionally posts in threads with the mod authority.
has Eljeffe been making mod decrees in threads, or are we just talking about him interjecting in threads in general?
He will occasionally make GDST and then move the discussion there like he's a mod, not like infracting people.
Thanks, that seems pretty egregious and I had no idea.
Literally several of us do this. I have done it multiple times. Making a separate thread isn't a mod thing.
From my point of view, the reason I think SE++ needs to have it's own space on the new forums is out of kindness. Even if the edict is removed (and I think it should be) if the forums were joined then under any set of rules that are actually applied a small but important set of SE++ regulars, and yes I certainly mean Lanz just to not dance around the issue, would quickly get themselves banned. I am sure they would have excellent reasons about the moral rightness of their position in whatever it is that gets them banned but it would happen. No matter how lenient the set of rules, at some point some restriction or another would come to represent the oppression of someone and transgressing it would become a moral imperative.
I don't want to see Lanz or any of them banned. And with nuforums the primary reason they continually pissed me off so much has gone away. To whit: the attitude in SE++ that they are the Main Character of the forums and if SE++ goes down then you might as well burn everything else down with it. Leave me to my D&D [chat] (which, by traffic and numbers, is the larger community) and let SE++ have a space where they can violate the rules when they feel they need to and the mods let that be.
This is exactly the kind of post that should not be carried over to the new forums. And probably exactly the kind of poster if we're being honest.
I'm gonna suggest something that, while I don't think is a magic cure all solution, but a good first step in closing the gap in the rift.
Whatever the DnD successor forum winds up being, it really shouldn't have Debate in it's name. That inherently implies taking adversarial stances is okay and welcome, and some topics just...shouldn't have them. Full stop. Be completely generic and bland and call it "The On Topic Forum" if you have to. But managing the idea and expectation that you can always get away with arguing something if you stick to approved rhetoric and your opinion has a place to be shared just because you have one is, lets say, counter productive, and not really what the sub forum is meant to be about (at least in my experience and understanding over the years).
I don’t think that’s necessary, as it stands people don’t take adversarial stances to be contrary, just often have different opinions on motivations or on solutions.
And often those disagreements aren’t a complete 180 degree difference of opinion. More often it’s a difference of degree. The divide comes when people won’t tolerate deviation from what they consider the only solution, or when people interpret disagreement to be the same as being told they can’t have their opinion.
I 100% first started posting in d&d many years ago because I love debating with people, virtually all my posts were devil's advocate what about X that I didn't believe in. I stopped when I realized people did not like and were not there for that but now I'm sad we don't have an actual debate forum. Debating can be fun!
I think the whole "Jeffe has mod/ex-mod status" thing is mostly just a proxy for people feeling like Jeffe was a shitty mod who made the community worse and still has diplomatic immunity to never get hit on the "don't be a dick" rule, especially in threads where actually saying that string of words would get you infracted for an edict violation.
It's not so much that him having a mod badge or an "ex-mod" badge actually matters so much as it was a sign that A: Eebs wasn't doing anything to manage the forums as admin and B: he would be (and most likely) still is untouchable no matter what he does.
From my point of view, the reason I think SE++ needs to have it's own space on the new forums is out of kindness. Even if the edict is removed (and I think it should be) if the forums were joined then under any set of rules that are actually applied a small but important set of SE++ regulars, and yes I certainly mean Lanz just to not dance around the issue, would quickly get themselves banned. I am sure they would have excellent reasons about the moral rightness of their position in whatever it is that gets them banned but it would happen. No matter how lenient the set of rules, at some point some restriction or another would come to represent the oppression of someone and transgressing it would become a moral imperative.
I don't want to see Lanz or any of them banned. And with nuforums the primary reason they continually pissed me off so much has gone away. To whit: the attitude in SE++ that they are the Main Character of the forums and if SE++ goes down then you might as well burn everything else down with it. Leave me to my D&D [chat] (which, by traffic and numbers, is the larger community) and let SE++ have a space where they can violate the rules when they feel they need to and the mods let that be.
Sanity check here, were you trying to post a perfect example of a post that on the surface looks polite and not dickish, but is certainly breaking the don't be a dick rule?
Eebs could have come to my house and burned it down , and kicked my dog, and I'd still prefer him to when tube was running things so it's hard to be objective on anything like that for me
I'm gonna suggest something that, while I don't think is a magic cure all solution, but a good first step in closing the gap in the rift.
Whatever the DnD successor forum winds up being, it really shouldn't have Debate in it's name. That inherently implies taking adversarial stances is okay and welcome, and some topics just...shouldn't have them. Full stop. Be completely generic and bland and call it "The On Topic Forum" if you have to. But managing the idea and expectation that you can always get away with arguing something if you stick to approved rhetoric and your opinion has a place to be shared just because you have one is, lets say, counter productive, and not really what the sub forum is meant to be about (at least in my experience and understanding over the years).
I don’t think that’s necessary, as it stands people don’t take adversarial stances to be contrary, just often have different opinions on motivations or on solutions.
And often those disagreements aren’t a complete 180 degree difference of opinion. More often it’s a difference of degree. The divide comes when people won’t tolerate deviation from what they consider the only solution, or when people interpret disagreement to be the same as being told they can’t have their opinion.
Sure but it ties back into the "don't be a dick" enforcement. For example, telling a trans person who can't bring themselves to vote for a party/candidate that is eroding their rights, that they are being dumb or self sabotaging or whatever, is, at it's core, dickish behavior, even if coming from a place of "I am trying to help you help yourself". There are ways to have that conversation with people, and very, very often those kinds of interactions turn very hostile because the start of it could have justified a quick bop on the nose for the person trying to be helpful and supportive in a somewhat dickish manner and turns confrontational (and the oppressed person is far more likely to break sooner and eat a mod action, due to ya know, being oppressed). Then both parties walk away feeling very aggrieved. The one trying to be helpful seeing the target of their support as irrational and hostile, and the oppressed party seeing the other person as willing to sell out their rights.
This has become a very recurring thing over the past decade or so, and is one example of generating pretty huge rifts between folks who are otherwise way closer to allies than adversaries.
That seems like a different issue that is really only tangential to whether or not we include “debate” in the title or focus of a subforum. You’re right that it can be seen as an extension of the “don’t be a dick rule” and the behavior goes both ways. But you’ll still have the same kind of interactions on a subforum only for “discourse”
From my point of view, the reason I think SE++ needs to have it's own space on the new forums is out of kindness. Even if the edict is removed (and I think it should be) if the forums were joined then under any set of rules that are actually applied a small but important set of SE++ regulars, and yes I certainly mean Lanz just to not dance around the issue, would quickly get themselves banned. I am sure they would have excellent reasons about the moral rightness of their position in whatever it is that gets them banned but it would happen. No matter how lenient the set of rules, at some point some restriction or another would come to represent the oppression of someone and transgressing it would become a moral imperative.
I don't want to see Lanz or any of them banned. And with nuforums the primary reason they continually pissed me off so much has gone away. To whit: the attitude in SE++ that they are the Main Character of the forums and if SE++ goes down then you might as well burn everything else down with it. Leave me to my D&D [chat] (which, by traffic and numbers, is the larger community) and let SE++ have a space where they can violate the rules when they feel they need to and the mods let that be.
This is the problem though. Why would Lanz get banned? What has she ever posted that was ban worthy?
Someone should really make a timeline with what needs figured out when, I don't think having a bunch of chat thread pie in the sky dreams is a viable strategy.
This is absolutely not official, or the final word, but here's how I'd like to schedule things at a very high level:
Hell, New Jersey, it said on the letter. Delivered without comment. So be it!
Maybe I'm misunderstanding this being the "kinda just saying whatever about the transition thread" in terms of stuff being Bike Shedding. Like I said earlier, we could have something stood up tomorrow. This is about trying to do it better/right. It was just something to let people think about because subtle stuff like that does matter with how people engage with things.
I don't want to see Lanz or any of them banned. And with nuforums the primary reason they continually pissed me off so much has gone away. To whit: the attitude in SE++ that they are the Main Character of the forums and if SE++ goes down then you might as well burn everything else down with it. Leave me to my D&D [chat] (which, by traffic and numbers, is the larger community) and let SE++ have a space where they can violate the rules when they feel they need to and the mods let that be.
Not gonna lie, this kind of infuriating dismissal of people trying to resolve their issues with how the forum is managed as "Main Character Syndrome" isn't only counter to the stated intention of the migration project, it's absolutely fucking insufferable.
In general I don't find airing out these grievances to be very useful. I'm not going to try and deal with how I feel about the other posters and they feel about me, I don't care outside of our disagreements in the politics threads and it's fine.
But bringing up grievances with a mod is kind of relevant unless he's not working on the future then I don't give a shit about problems with Jeffe. The retired mod status makes things confusing especially when he occasionally posts in threads with the mod authority.
has Eljeffe been making mod decrees in threads, or are we just talking about him interjecting in threads in general?
No. This is a complex disagreement over if what jeffe did to lanz in re: moderation in the past was wrong and the inability of a subforum to let it go and kind of spills out every time this "there's a schism!" debate comes up.
The fact that lanz cannot stop becoming the main character of nearly every thread and has been kicked several times from threads because of it, and has no reflection on why this shit is continuing to happen is silly to me.
Like I said, I've posted in practically every subforum, guess which "most welcoming group" I don't like talking to anymore? There were some good threads over there before I took my break a few years back.
As soon as I hit post there will be approximately 9 other people who will come out to tell me just how wrong I am and probably say something to the effects of "wow you really showed your whole ass" but it's just exhausting. It's the same people every time too. But away I go. Hopefully it'll be longer than 30 minutes before I get a big long low effort meme thrown at me about how I'm an evil nazi hanging out in my nazi bar because I disagree that the problem is moderation here. No the problem this small group in SE++ and only this small group in SE++.
In general I don't find airing out these grievances to be very useful. I'm not going to try and deal with how I feel about the other posters and they feel about me, I don't care outside of our disagreements in the politics threads and it's fine.
But bringing up grievances with a mod is kind of relevant unless he's not working on the future then I don't give a shit about problems with Jeffe. The retired mod status makes things confusing especially when he occasionally posts in threads with the mod authority.
Outside I think of helping of maybe clearing spam I don't think Jeffe has mod posted since retiring.
Also new forums we can shift it so there aren't those badges but the mods can keep their own little chat thread.
Also Jeffe's long career and watching this forum over different epochs I think is useful insight for the current mods charting new waters. Also he has been here as long or longer than most folks. His voice and concerns about the next step hold as much weight as any of ours.
People really should just stop obsessing about a stupid title.
I don't think I've heard a single person ever have a problem with it till the big blow up that ran geebs off in the spring. And then suddenly it was an urgent priority for some reason.
Just want to again say that we do not know that is what happened. Neither Geebs nor the mods said that is what happened, so it's entirely conjecture at this point..
In general I don't find airing out these grievances to be very useful. I'm not going to try and deal with how I feel about the other posters and they feel about me, I don't care outside of our disagreements in the politics threads and it's fine.
But bringing up grievances with a mod is kind of relevant unless he's not working on the future then I don't give a shit about problems with Jeffe. The retired mod status makes things confusing especially when he occasionally posts in threads with the mod authority.
has Eljeffe been making mod decrees in threads, or are we just talking about him interjecting in threads in general?
He will occasionally make GDST and then move the discussion there like he's a mod, not like infracting people.
The single instance of this is when an AI thread had simultaneous conversations running about the ethics of AI, and the tech behind it, and it was difficult to maintain either. I created a new thread for people who wanted to discuss just the tech (and I deliberately did not call it a GDST), but anyone can create a new thread, and I never tried to enforce conversational limits on the old thread. I apologize if that was viewed as a mod action, I didn't mean for it to be taken that way. Other than that, I have not done any mod-things since I stepped down, or tried to speak with any authority.
But yeah, I'm not a mod now, I won't be a mod in the new place, and any thoughts I have are strictly as a guy who has been here for two decades and has some opinions.
Would you say I had a plethora of pinatas?
Legos are cool, MOCs are cool, check me out on Rebrickable!
anyway i think the problem writ large with regards to politics threads on the forums is they're completely normal internet politics threads. there is nothing special about them. every single argument that is taking place here about them would play out across any politics threads on any forums. and what it boils down to is look. why are we pretending that 99% of these conversations are anything other than eloquent rubbernecking
politics threads across the whole of the forums, whether SE++ or D&D or even G&T - the only three forums that exist or have ever existed - are places where people post links about current events and people react to them. there is no difference between them and a comments section on the washington post other than the moderators hired and the signup process. you have seen time and time again that people say they just use the forums as their primary news source and no matter how many people reply afterwards "uh i don't know if that's a great idea" a bunch of people keep doing it
this is not something that happened with shifts in social media or anything, this is just how on average people process news on the internet. the number of discussions that are anything other than that are very few. this predates the average user of the forums using twitter, this was just the arc things were on. it was probably at its worst when you had people posting every trump tweet, but you can only pull up so much. and that's not necessarily a problem! that's a very natural reaction! that's you know, folks at a pub watching the tv together and commenting on what happens.
it's just that also it's been very rare for the moderation and rules to reflect that that is the reality of how people use the politics threads (and even if people say they don't want to use it that way, they are). part of that is that yeah, the forums at large have probably not ever had a sufficient moderator count. so there's a certain amount of cultural inertia of not properly adapting to how the site functions. and you know, i don't know what the solution is. what do i look like, some kind of rules-writer. but while "should debate be in the subforum title???" is a pretty big example of asking the wrong question, i do think that a reality of the new forum should be rules written with a more modern understanding of how exactly people are going to use politics threads.
Curious question, because for me [chat] is a huge part of me going to the new forum. And I will say where [chat] goes I kind of go as it is my third space. Numerous of my real life friends I met there. I have been to people's weddings. Grew my knowledge of different life experiences. Gathered joy watching people show things they love like photography or food or their pets. Seen people get married or have kids. Go through hard times and great times. I think a lot of the things people on SE++ would say they have seen on their end.
With this in mind, why are people so hostile to it? It is the one thread on the forums for talking without politics or current events. Its scatterbrain and moves fast for the forum as is. Has I think last I heard about 80-100 users a day. I mean y'all are welcome any time. But seriously why the hostility?
In general I don't find airing out these grievances to be very useful. I'm not going to try and deal with how I feel about the other posters and they feel about me, I don't care outside of our disagreements in the politics threads and it's fine.
But bringing up grievances with a mod is kind of relevant unless he's not working on the future then I don't give a shit about problems with Jeffe. The retired mod status makes things confusing especially when he occasionally posts in threads with the mod authority.
Outside I think of helping of maybe clearing spam I don't think Jeffe has mod posted since retiring.
Also new forums we can shift it so there aren't those badges but the mods can keep their own little chat thread.
Also Jeffe's long career and watching this forum over different epochs I think is useful insight for the current mods charting new waters. Also he has been here as long or longer than most folks. His voice and concerns about the next step hold as much weight as any of ours.
People really should just stop obsessing about a stupid title.
I don't think I've heard a single person ever have a problem with it till the big blow up that ran geebs off in the spring. And then suddenly it was an urgent priority for some reason.
Just want to again say that we do not know that is what happened. Neither Geebs nor the mods said that is what happened, so it's entirely conjecture at this point..
in fact it was basically a mod statement from bahamutzero that "can you guys stop trying to mythmake "we ran geebs out" when no one said that"
In general I don't find airing out these grievances to be very useful. I'm not going to try and deal with how I feel about the other posters and they feel about me, I don't care outside of our disagreements in the politics threads and it's fine.
But bringing up grievances with a mod is kind of relevant unless he's not working on the future then I don't give a shit about problems with Jeffe. The retired mod status makes things confusing especially when he occasionally posts in threads with the mod authority.
Outside I think of helping of maybe clearing spam I don't think Jeffe has mod posted since retiring.
Also new forums we can shift it so there aren't those badges but the mods can keep their own little chat thread.
Also Jeffe's long career and watching this forum over different epochs I think is useful insight for the current mods charting new waters. Also he has been here as long or longer than most folks. His voice and concerns about the next step hold as much weight as any of ours.
People really should just stop obsessing about a stupid title.
I don't think I've heard a single person ever have a problem with it till the big blow up that ran geebs off in the spring. And then suddenly it was an urgent priority for some reason.
Just want to again say that we do not know that is what happened. Neither Geebs nor the mods said that is what happened, so it's entirely conjecture at this point..
We don't know for sure in that there is no signed affidavit, sure. But we can use our eyes too.
In general I don't find airing out these grievances to be very useful. I'm not going to try and deal with how I feel about the other posters and they feel about me, I don't care outside of our disagreements in the politics threads and it's fine.
But bringing up grievances with a mod is kind of relevant unless he's not working on the future then I don't give a shit about problems with Jeffe. The retired mod status makes things confusing especially when he occasionally posts in threads with the mod authority.
Outside I think of helping of maybe clearing spam I don't think Jeffe has mod posted since retiring.
Also new forums we can shift it so there aren't those badges but the mods can keep their own little chat thread.
Also Jeffe's long career and watching this forum over different epochs I think is useful insight for the current mods charting new waters. Also he has been here as long or longer than most folks. His voice and concerns about the next step hold as much weight as any of ours.
People really should just stop obsessing about a stupid title.
I don't think I've heard a single person ever have a problem with it till the big blow up that ran geebs off in the spring. And then suddenly it was an urgent priority for some reason.
Just want to again say that we do not know that is what happened. Neither Geebs nor the mods said that is what happened, so it's entirely conjecture at this point..
We don't know for sure in that there is no signed affidavit, sure. But we can use our eyes too.
apparently not because you missed when bahamutzero said to stop doing that BLAMMO
In general I don't find airing out these grievances to be very useful. I'm not going to try and deal with how I feel about the other posters and they feel about me, I don't care outside of our disagreements in the politics threads and it's fine.
But bringing up grievances with a mod is kind of relevant unless he's not working on the future then I don't give a shit about problems with Jeffe. The retired mod status makes things confusing especially when he occasionally posts in threads with the mod authority.
has Eljeffe been making mod decrees in threads, or are we just talking about him interjecting in threads in general?
No. This is a complex disagreement over if what jeffe did to lanz in re: moderation in the past was wrong and the inability of a subforum to let it go and kind of spills out every time this "there's a schism!" debate comes up.
The fact that lanz cannot stop becoming the main character of nearly every thread and has been kicked several times from threads because of it, and has no reflection on why this shit is continuing to happen is silly to me.
Like I said, I've posted in practically every subforum, guess which "most welcoming group" I don't like talking to anymore? There were some good threads over there before I took my break a few years back.
As soon as I hit post there will be approximately 9 other people who will come out to tell me just how wrong I am and probably say something to the effects of "wow you really showed your whole ass" but it's just exhausting. It's the same people every time too. But away I go. Hopefully it'll be longer than 30 minutes before I get a big long low effort meme thrown at me about how I'm an evil nazi hanging out in my nazi bar because I disagree that the problem is moderation here. No the problem this small group in SE++ and only this small group in SE++.
The most recent time Lanz got banned from a political thread is because they a mod said "Don't discuss this anymore" and Lanz posted a rather large post five minutes after the mod decree, almost certainly not even have seen the decree before they hit "reply."
Having done this exact same thing and not gotten kicked or infracted, color me skeptical that the rules are being applied fairly.
I'd say the issue of whether we are one forum, or two that happen to share the he same host for now, is the non-technical issue facing us. I read and post in the duplicated media threads on both sides, and mostly stay out of both the [chat] threads and the political threads where I don't really fit in. I'd miss the range of perspectives and discussion I get from the former, but understand why those heavily involved in the latter might want to make the divorce final.
Curious question, because for me [chat] is a huge part of me going to the new forum. And I will say where [chat] goes I kind of go as it is my third space. Numerous of my real life friends I met there. I have been to people's weddings. Grew my knowledge of different life experiences. Gathered joy watching people show things they love like photography or food or their pets. Seen people get married or have kids. Go through hard times and great times. I think a lot of the things people on SE++ would say they have seen on their end.
With this in mind, why are people so hostile to it? It is the one thread on the forums for talking without politics or current events. Its scatterbrain and moves fast for the forum as is. Has I think last I heard about 80-100 users a day. I mean y'all are welcome any time. But seriously why the hostility?
It is incredibly hard to keep up with and thus feels very cliquey would be my guess. There are some days where I have a busy morning and 30-40 pages have gone by, but I personally feel the need to catch up to a thread before contributing, but that's a losing race a lot of the time. Now mind you, I don't hold anything against chat and do try to pop in now and again, but man it can feel like a chore at times to try to get involved, and people get angry at chores.
In general I don't find airing out these grievances to be very useful. I'm not going to try and deal with how I feel about the other posters and they feel about me, I don't care outside of our disagreements in the politics threads and it's fine.
But bringing up grievances with a mod is kind of relevant unless he's not working on the future then I don't give a shit about problems with Jeffe. The retired mod status makes things confusing especially when he occasionally posts in threads with the mod authority.
has Eljeffe been making mod decrees in threads, or are we just talking about him interjecting in threads in general?
He will occasionally make GDST and then move the discussion there like he's a mod, not like infracting people.
The single instance of this is when an AI thread had simultaneous conversations running about the ethics of AI, and the tech behind it, and it was difficult to maintain either. I created a new thread for people who wanted to discuss just the tech (and I deliberately did not call it a GDST), but anyone can create a new thread, and I never tried to enforce conversational limits on the old thread. I apologize if that was viewed as a mod action, I didn't mean for it to be taken that way. Other than that, I have not done any mod-things since I stepped down, or tried to speak with any authority.
But yeah, I'm not a mod now, I won't be a mod in the new place, and any thoughts I have are strictly as a guy who has been here for two decades and has some opinions.
Curious question, because for me [chat] is a huge part of me going to the new forum. And I will say where [chat] goes I kind of go as it is my third space. Numerous of my real life friends I met there. I have been to people's weddings. Grew my knowledge of different life experiences. Gathered joy watching people show things they love like photography or food or their pets. Seen people get married or have kids. Go through hard times and great times. I think a lot of the things people on SE++ would say they have seen on their end.
With this in mind, why are people so hostile to it? It is the one thread on the forums for talking without politics or current events. Its scatterbrain and moves fast for the forum as is. Has I think last I heard about 80-100 users a day. I mean y'all are welcome any time. But seriously why the hostility?
it's not that complicated, some of the people who have been involved in the hostilities have as part of their core identity "i'm part of the chat thread" and make kind of weird us vs them posts which causes some of the them to go "wait chat thread people are fucking coming for me???"
same reason why some people have hostility towards "All of SE++". because some people go "i'm a SE++ poster" and also have involvement in hostilities and some of the them go "woah SE++ is arrayed against mE???"
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syndalisGetting ClassyOn the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Products, Transition Teamregular
Curious question, because for me [chat] is a huge part of me going to the new forum. And I will say where [chat] goes I kind of go as it is my third space. Numerous of my real life friends I met there. I have been to people's weddings. Grew my knowledge of different life experiences. Gathered joy watching people show things they love like photography or food or their pets. Seen people get married or have kids. Go through hard times and great times. I think a lot of the things people on SE++ would say they have seen on their end.
With this in mind, why are people so hostile to it? It is the one thread on the forums for talking without politics or current events. Its scatterbrain and moves fast for the forum as is. Has I think last I heard about 80-100 users a day. I mean y'all are welcome any time. But seriously why the hostility?
hundreds of individuals post in any one chat thread. Seriously.
A half-finished one yesterday had like 168 unique contributors.
Not everyone goes full Drez or Chanus on volume, but there are a ton of familiar faces and good vibes to be had.
Posts
I don't think I've heard a single person ever have a problem with it till the big blow up that ran geebs off in the spring. And then suddenly it was an urgent priority for some reason.
I have done this.
This is just a thing that D&D does.
That's like...not a mod thing, that's how GDSTs spin off.
You could think it's metamodding (and i guess it kinda / sorta is whenever anyone does it) but it's something pretty much anyone who feels like it / feels it's appropriate can do and often does. I've done that probably a dozen times since GDSTs became a thing.
I don't want to see Lanz or any of them banned. And with nuforums the primary reason they continually pissed me off so much has gone away. To whit: the attitude in SE++ that they are the Main Character of the forums and if SE++ goes down then you might as well burn everything else down with it. Leave me to my D&D [chat] (which, by traffic and numbers, is the larger community) and let SE++ have a space where they can violate the rules when they feel they need to and the mods let that be.
Current start is the mod team. There is a thread here with folks working on management. Spool32 who has experience running a similar online community, establishing the non-profit, and setting up the board and the legal stuff around it has volunteered to help PM the move as well.
The pitch in thread is gathering folks with skills willing to help as well.
The most recent one I could find was from back in May on the ethics around voting.
One of the first things written in the OP was
“So here is an unofficial, non-mod-sanctioned thread to talk about that stuff so that the congress thread can get back to discussing congress”
Sure but it ties back into the "don't be a dick" enforcement. For example, telling a trans person who can't bring themselves to vote for a party/candidate that is eroding their rights, that they are being dumb or self sabotaging or whatever, is, at it's core, dickish behavior, even if coming from a place of "I am trying to help you help yourself". There are ways to have that conversation with people, and very, very often those kinds of interactions turn very hostile because the start of it could have justified a quick bop on the nose for the person trying to be helpful and supportive in a somewhat dickish manner and turns confrontational (and the oppressed person is far more likely to break sooner and eat a mod action, due to ya know, being oppressed). Then both parties walk away feeling very aggrieved. The one trying to be helpful seeing the target of their support as irrational and hostile, and the oppressed party seeing the other person as willing to sell out their rights.
This has become a very recurring thing over the past decade or so, and is one example of generating pretty huge rifts between folks who are otherwise way closer to allies than adversaries.
can we just ban riemannlives now if we're going to get this masturbatory kind of post here
heck, I've made GDSTs and I'm possibly one of the most timid, inconsequential people here :P
Literally several of us do this. I have done it multiple times. Making a separate thread isn't a mod thing.
This is exactly the kind of post that should not be carried over to the new forums. And probably exactly the kind of poster if we're being honest.
It's not so much that him having a mod badge or an "ex-mod" badge actually matters so much as it was a sign that A: Eebs wasn't doing anything to manage the forums as admin and B: he would be (and most likely) still is untouchable no matter what he does.
Sanity check here, were you trying to post a perfect example of a post that on the surface looks polite and not dickish, but is certainly breaking the don't be a dick rule?
That seems like a different issue that is really only tangential to whether or not we include “debate” in the title or focus of a subforum. You’re right that it can be seen as an extension of the “don’t be a dick rule” and the behavior goes both ways. But you’ll still have the same kind of interactions on a subforum only for “discourse”
This is the problem though. Why would Lanz get banned? What has she ever posted that was ban worthy?
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This is absolutely not official, or the final word, but here's how I'd like to schedule things at a very high level:
Maybe I'm misunderstanding this being the "kinda just saying whatever about the transition thread" in terms of stuff being Bike Shedding. Like I said earlier, we could have something stood up tomorrow. This is about trying to do it better/right. It was just something to let people think about because subtle stuff like that does matter with how people engage with things.
Not gonna lie, this kind of infuriating dismissal of people trying to resolve their issues with how the forum is managed as "Main Character Syndrome" isn't only counter to the stated intention of the migration project, it's absolutely fucking insufferable.
No. This is a complex disagreement over if what jeffe did to lanz in re: moderation in the past was wrong and the inability of a subforum to let it go and kind of spills out every time this "there's a schism!" debate comes up.
The fact that lanz cannot stop becoming the main character of nearly every thread and has been kicked several times from threads because of it, and has no reflection on why this shit is continuing to happen is silly to me.
Like I said, I've posted in practically every subforum, guess which "most welcoming group" I don't like talking to anymore? There were some good threads over there before I took my break a few years back.
As soon as I hit post there will be approximately 9 other people who will come out to tell me just how wrong I am and probably say something to the effects of "wow you really showed your whole ass" but it's just exhausting. It's the same people every time too. But away I go. Hopefully it'll be longer than 30 minutes before I get a big long low effort meme thrown at me about how I'm an evil nazi hanging out in my nazi bar because I disagree that the problem is moderation here. No the problem this small group in SE++ and only this small group in SE++.
Just want to again say that we do not know that is what happened. Neither Geebs nor the mods said that is what happened, so it's entirely conjecture at this point..
The single instance of this is when an AI thread had simultaneous conversations running about the ethics of AI, and the tech behind it, and it was difficult to maintain either. I created a new thread for people who wanted to discuss just the tech (and I deliberately did not call it a GDST), but anyone can create a new thread, and I never tried to enforce conversational limits on the old thread. I apologize if that was viewed as a mod action, I didn't mean for it to be taken that way. Other than that, I have not done any mod-things since I stepped down, or tried to speak with any authority.
But yeah, I'm not a mod now, I won't be a mod in the new place, and any thoughts I have are strictly as a guy who has been here for two decades and has some opinions.
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politics threads across the whole of the forums, whether SE++ or D&D or even G&T - the only three forums that exist or have ever existed - are places where people post links about current events and people react to them. there is no difference between them and a comments section on the washington post other than the moderators hired and the signup process. you have seen time and time again that people say they just use the forums as their primary news source and no matter how many people reply afterwards "uh i don't know if that's a great idea" a bunch of people keep doing it
this is not something that happened with shifts in social media or anything, this is just how on average people process news on the internet. the number of discussions that are anything other than that are very few. this predates the average user of the forums using twitter, this was just the arc things were on. it was probably at its worst when you had people posting every trump tweet, but you can only pull up so much. and that's not necessarily a problem! that's a very natural reaction! that's you know, folks at a pub watching the tv together and commenting on what happens.
it's just that also it's been very rare for the moderation and rules to reflect that that is the reality of how people use the politics threads (and even if people say they don't want to use it that way, they are). part of that is that yeah, the forums at large have probably not ever had a sufficient moderator count. so there's a certain amount of cultural inertia of not properly adapting to how the site functions. and you know, i don't know what the solution is. what do i look like, some kind of rules-writer. but while "should debate be in the subforum title???" is a pretty big example of asking the wrong question, i do think that a reality of the new forum should be rules written with a more modern understanding of how exactly people are going to use politics threads.
With this in mind, why are people so hostile to it? It is the one thread on the forums for talking without politics or current events. Its scatterbrain and moves fast for the forum as is. Has I think last I heard about 80-100 users a day. I mean y'all are welcome any time. But seriously why the hostility?
in fact it was basically a mod statement from bahamutzero that "can you guys stop trying to mythmake "we ran geebs out" when no one said that"
We don't know for sure in that there is no signed affidavit, sure. But we can use our eyes too.
apparently not because you missed when bahamutzero said to stop doing that BLAMMO
The most recent time Lanz got banned from a political thread is because they a mod said "Don't discuss this anymore" and Lanz posted a rather large post five minutes after the mod decree, almost certainly not even have seen the decree before they hit "reply."
Having done this exact same thing and not gotten kicked or infracted, color me skeptical that the rules are being applied fairly.
I'd say the issue of whether we are one forum, or two that happen to share the he same host for now, is the non-technical issue facing us. I read and post in the duplicated media threads on both sides, and mostly stay out of both the [chat] threads and the political threads where I don't really fit in. I'd miss the range of perspectives and discussion I get from the former, but understand why those heavily involved in the latter might want to make the divorce final.
It is incredibly hard to keep up with and thus feels very cliquey would be my guess. There are some days where I have a busy morning and 30-40 pages have gone by, but I personally feel the need to catch up to a thread before contributing, but that's a losing race a lot of the time. Now mind you, I don't hold anything against chat and do try to pop in now and again, but man it can feel like a chore at times to try to get involved, and people get angry at chores.
No worries, that's all I wanted to clear up.
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it's not that complicated, some of the people who have been involved in the hostilities have as part of their core identity "i'm part of the chat thread" and make kind of weird us vs them posts which causes some of the them to go "wait chat thread people are fucking coming for me???"
same reason why some people have hostility towards "All of SE++". because some people go "i'm a SE++ poster" and also have involvement in hostilities and some of the them go "woah SE++ is arrayed against mE???"
hundreds of individuals post in any one chat thread. Seriously.
A half-finished one yesterday had like 168 unique contributors.
Not everyone goes full Drez or Chanus on volume, but there are a ton of familiar faces and good vibes to be had.