I have no idea why people keep trying to shake everything up. If the point of this product is to preserve the community, why would we be trying to completely fundamentally change the community?
Why are we trying to mash multiple subforums together that have been distinct in style and somewhat in membership for like decades at this point? What's the goal here other then to make everyone less comfortable with no upsides? We ain't paying per subforum are we?
Like, maybe you condense some of the really inactive subforums or something. Just for the sake of not having completely dead random subforums.
But there seems zero reason to try and turn a project about keeping the various communities here together into a plan to restructure everything till it's unfamiliar and people with different expectations who don't interact now suddenly have to all play in the same sandbox together.
Why bother? What are people even trying to achieve and why?
Because there are way fewer users than when the boards were designed and it's stupid to keep siloing everybody.
There aren't that many differences and we can have different threads for different vibes.
Personally I really like how SE threads can freely go off on tangents and have entire pages of food talk in the middle of a thread. I imagine a lot of DnD folks prefer threads to be more stringent about staying on topic. So are we going to have on- and off-topic threads for every subject? Cos then you may as well have separate subforums. And if they're all going to be strictly on topic, well, I for one am probably not going to enjoy hanging out here (or there, I guess) any more.
Moderation needs to be on point with merging everything together. While calling people out and dunking on them might be cathartic in the end it creates treehouses and cliques and just creates more animosity. That's a fantastic way to kill a fledgling community. I hope we can agree to leave this shit at the door and maybe the whole "yeah but what if they're a nazi?" can be best left to the mods to get them taken care of instead of making a public spectacle of it in a siloed thread on either side of a demarcation line.
I think part of the issue is that we simply need more moderators. I've seen the moderator ratio at other forums, and we are woefully understaffed compared to them and their user base, even as small as this community is. If we do start merging subforums (I'm not sure this is a super great idea RIGHT NOW, but it sounds like a great long term goal), then we'll need a larger moderation staff to handle the ensuing chaos and drama.
I have no idea why people keep trying to shake everything up. If the point of this product is to preserve the community, why would we be trying to completely fundamentally change the community?
Why are we trying to mash multiple subforums together that have been distinct in style and somewhat in membership for like decades at this point? What's the goal here other then to make everyone less comfortable with no upsides? We ain't paying per subforum are we?
Like, maybe you condense some of the really inactive subforums or something. Just for the sake of not having completely dead random subforums.
But there seems zero reason to try and turn a project about keeping the various communities here together into a plan to restructure everything till it's unfamiliar and people with different expectations who don't interact now suddenly have to all play in the same sandbox together.
Why bother? What are people even trying to achieve and why?
Because there are way fewer users than when the boards were designed and it's stupid to keep siloing everybody.
There aren't that many differences and we can have different threads for different vibes.
There are enough users right now for any of the major subforums to keep on going here and now. There's no reason to do anything but just port those over and call it a day.
Also: Without getting into it, I cannot accurately express how much, personally, I would prefer if SE++ and D&D could remain separate spaces on the Internet.
But, as multiple people have pointed out in this discussion, that isn't a tenable long term solution if we keep having to deal with a dwindling use base, and we don't even know if we can just port those two separate communities as-is to whatever platform ends up hosting us next.
It's also a bad idea because if we don't actually try to address the cultural and social schism that has formed between these two communities, we are actively building our new community on a compromised foundation. And if that's the case, then what exactly was the point of trying ton preserve this community if we just end up back where we started?
That's what I like about that sample hierarchy - the most serious D&D discussion still get to be in their own place. The only time I go into D&D is for the Lego thread - I post mostly in G&T and SE and having their names changed to the Suburbs and Arcade frankly wouldn't impact me and would still allow me to avoid the real serious world encroaching on my fun forum times.
But - given the revised time frame - I can completely get behind keeping the current structure, hiding the unused forums, and maybe just finding a way over time to consolidate things.
I want to get rid of it. It was good for a bunchy of edgy teens and twenty year olds, but we're adults now.
I'd like to keep the spirit if not the actual rule. Sometimes an asshole needs to be called an asshole, but generally speaking that does not create a good environment for discussion. Glorious Edict is far less subjective to enforce than "We are adults, act like it".
I don't know what it could be replaced with and we have recently seen that having such a clear, objective rule has it's own problems.
"Name-calling is not permitted, full stop."
I don't even think we need exceptions for Nazis and fascists - just report them to the mods.
Moderation needs to be on point with merging everything together. While calling people out and dunking on them might be cathartic in the end it creates treehouses and cliques and just creates more animosity. That's a fantastic way to kill a fledgling community. I hope we can agree to leave this shit at the door and maybe the whole "yeah but what if they're a nazi?" can be best left to the mods to get them taken care of instead of making a public spectacle of it in a siloed thread on either side of a demarcation line.
I think part of the issue is that we simply need more moderators. I've seen the moderator ratio at other forums, and we are woefully understaffed compared to them and their user base, even as small as this community is. If we do start merging subforums (I'm not sure this is a super great idea RIGHT NOW, but it sounds like a great long term goal), then we'll need a larger moderation staff to handle the ensuing chaos and drama.
Personally I really like how SE threads can freely go off on tangents and have entire pages of food talk in the middle of a thread. I imagine a lot of DnD folks prefer threads to be more stringent about staying on topic. So are we going to have on- and off-topic threads for every subject? Cos then you may as well have separate subforums. And if they're all going to be strictly on topic, well, I for one am probably not going to enjoy hanging out here (or there, I guess) any more.
That's been my view of SE++ most of the time. I have nothing against the topics or the people, it's just the ad-hoc posting style that I'm not very compatible with. The job thread in SE++ stays fairly structured, so I pop in there occasionally.
Maybe some outside perspective will help. I'm mostly a lurker outside a few specific threads--all of which are in G&T or sub forums thereof. There's other topics I'd probably engage with--say sports or music for example. I'd be more likely to do this in a restructure if those things are separated from their present "communities" of SE++ and D&D. I can't say *exactly* why other than, having been around here 16+ years, those existing communities seem impenetrable in a way that a functional restart of community building via restructure wouldn't. I suspect I'm not the only one who feels this way but maybe there's not enough of us to make a difference vs. the costs of ostracizing the people already posting in those places.
I have no idea why people keep trying to shake everything up. If the point of this product is to preserve the community, why would we be trying to completely fundamentally change the community?
Why are we trying to mash multiple subforums together that have been distinct in style and somewhat in membership for like decades at this point? What's the goal here other then to make everyone less comfortable with no upsides? We ain't paying per subforum are we?
Like, maybe you condense some of the really inactive subforums or something. Just for the sake of not having completely dead random subforums.
But there seems zero reason to try and turn a project about keeping the various communities here together into a plan to restructure everything till it's unfamiliar and people with different expectations who don't interact now suddenly have to all play in the same sandbox together.
Why bother? What are people even trying to achieve and why?
Because there are way fewer users than when the boards were designed and it's stupid to keep siloing everybody.
There aren't that many differences and we can have different threads for different vibes.
There are enough users right now for any of the major subforums to keep on going here and now. There's no reason to do anything but just port those over and call it a day.
Also: Without getting into it, I cannot accurately express how much, personally, I would prefer if SE++ and D&D could remain separate spaces on the Internet.
But, as multiple people have pointed out in this discussion, that isn't a tenable long term solution if we keep having to deal with a dwindling use base, and we don't even know if we can just port those two separate communities as-is to whatever platform ends up hosting us next.
It's also a bad idea because if we don't actually try to address the cultural and social schism that has formed between these two communities, we are actively building our new community on a compromised foundation. And if that's the case, then what exactly was the point of trying ton preserve this community if we just end up back where we started?
The point is to end up back where we started though. Like, the purpose of this whole project is for the forums to continue at a new URL.
It's not, and it can't be, if only by dint of the fact that the company that literally started these forums wants nothing to do with us anymore.
Not only that, trying to claim the forums are fine as-is and just need to be ported to a new platform completely unchanged ignores the months, potentally years of community tension that boiled over and contributed to Geebs failed attempts to try and actively improve the state of the forums.
Putting aside all that for a second, though: You're really going to say with your whole chest that there's nothing about the forums that we could improve with this opportunity to get a fresh start? That we're all better served just carrying on completely unchanged on a separate platform?
Because I don't think anyone taking this migration seriously would agree with you.
Maybe it's naive, but I would hope that having a unified chat space would help people better understand and tolerate each other, and maybe take the heat level down
But otoh, part of the reason people split into groups is because being forced to rub shoulders with people you don't like and fundamentally disagree with can turn the heat level up
In physical neighborhoods,* mixing people together helps to build empathy over material, real life concerns, but sometimes you will still get feuds that don't resolve.
*I almost wrote "real life" but I think that's pretty antiquated at this point. Digital spaces are real spaces with real consequences, and for some people they are the primary mode of socialization; it would be terrible to drive those people out rather than better accommodate them
I want to get rid of it. It was good for a bunchy of edgy teens and twenty year olds, but we're adults now.
I'd like to keep the spirit if not the actual rule. Sometimes an asshole needs to be called an asshole, but generally speaking that does not create a good environment for discussion. Glorious Edict is far less subjective to enforce than "We are adults, act like it".
I don't know what it could be replaced with and we have recently seen that having such a clear, objective rule has it's own problems.
"People are just polite assholes and use the rules as shields and get me in trouble" well yes that's the way rules work. It's why one, typically, cannot just scream at a coworker who thinks differently from yourself or go off on a tangent at a customer that gives you vibes you don't like. We're trying to build or at least maintain a community, what use is there doing this anymore?
I don't agree "most of us are adults, so don't need rules, and I should just be able to call a spade a spade" because in my experience being a 30, 40, 50, etc does not limit the behavior you've seen from a teenager and that just ends up with, again, treehouses screeching about each other. We all have our bad days, we all sometimes take something completely out of context and make someone our worst enemies. I'm not immune, nor is anyone else here, no matter what they think of themselves of their bffs.
This is tied to Hanhsoo's point later of just needing more mods so somebody can step into issues more quickly and stop them. Sometimes people are assholes or having a bad day, but if a mod is there to actually hit a person with points quicker to a post being reported it doesn't matter.
But people throw around insults like Mothergooser with the same invective of motherfucker so what's the difference? That was the behavior the rule was supposed to curb and it did, it got rid of the people who just wanted to swear and insult people.
Personally I really like how SE threads can freely go off on tangents and have entire pages of food talk in the middle of a thread. I imagine a lot of DnD folks prefer threads to be more stringent about staying on topic. So are we going to have on- and off-topic threads for every subject? Cos then you may as well have separate subforums. And if they're all going to be strictly on topic, well, I for one am probably not going to enjoy hanging out here (or there, I guess) any more.
That's been my view of SE++ most of the time. I have nothing against the topics or the people, it's just the ad-hoc posting style that I'm not very compatible with. The job thread in SE++ stays fairly structured, so I pop in there occasionally.
A lot of people post in one forum or the other and have for 10+ years now entirely because they prefer the style of discussion in one forum over the other. There's nothing wrong with that.
When people talk about merging SE++ and D&D what they are really talking about is one of them disappearing and the other being the only forum left.
And all that's gonna do is make a bunch of people on the losing side leave.
On the topic of mods, here's an update from me: I actually announced my intent to retire as a mod a couple of months ago, but that was about the same time as the impending doom shutdown showed up, so I might as well stick around and nuke spammers for a little while yet.
Whatever form the future forums take, I have no desire to be a mod there.
On the topic of mods, here's an update from me: I actually announced my intent to retire as a mod a couple of months ago, but that was about the same time as the impending doom shutdown showed up, so I might as well stick around and nuke spammers for a little while yet.
Whatever form the future forums take, I have no desire to be a mod there.
We appreciate you, Echo.
MHWilds ID: JF9LL8L3
+32
AthenorBattle Hardened OptimistThe Skies of HiigaraRegistered Userregular
Adding more mods is something that can be done now, right?
Tube used to say, anyone who wants to be a mod probably shouldn't have that power. Lord knows I've told enough people I'd be up for helping out, but that I couldn't take the hate and vitriol that would be tossed my way and I'd have a mental breakdown super fast.
Perhaps we could go all chaos-agent and do secret ballots for mods? Like:
- You cannot nominate yourself
- You must include your name
- You must message an existing mod (or ideally an independent email address / distro list)
- You must explain why you feel the person would be a good mod
- You cannot specify a specific subforum that you feel the mod should oversee
- You acknowledge that modding should not be a popularity contest, but instead focus on the betterment of the community as a whole
A lot of the April complaints to Geebs boiled down to a lack of overall moderation and a lack of transparency on mod actions. Growing the pool of mods certainly has the potential to help both of those issues.
And yes, the joke that "SE people" get to decide D&D's mods and vice versa is bound to show up, but I legit am sick and tired of that schism and would like to see us all work towards making the best community we can. And maybe that means some don't stick around, but.. well, sometimes it is best to cut toxic influences out of your life. I dunno.
He/Him | "We who believe in freedom cannot rest." - Dr. Johnetta Cole, 7/22/2024
Maybe it's naive, but I would hope that having a unified chat space would help people better understand and tolerate each other, and maybe take the heat level down
But otoh, part of the reason people split into groups is because being forced to rub shoulders with people you don't like and fundamentally disagree with can turn the heat level up
In physical neighborhoods,* mixing people together helps to build empathy over material, real life concerns, but sometimes you will still get feuds that don't resolve.
*I almost wrote "real life" but I think that's pretty antiquated at this point. Digital spaces are real spaces with real consequences, and for some people they are the primary mode of socialization; it would be terrible to drive those people out rather than better accommodate them
I can kind of shed a little light on this.
I hope you're okay with me pinging you here @Magell . Magell and I both post in chat, but I know we butt heads several times in election related threads specifically. Inside of chat it's... just mostly not a thing. At least not on my end and all the folks that seem to butt heads in the more on topic threads don't seem to really do it there. I think people are complex and when the gloves come off can mostly shake hands and hang out together. There are probably several who can't or don't want to because of some repugnant view, and I understand it, but I think it does help to have that shared space. Occasionally someone brings up a beef but, again, mostly not a thing and mods usually (rightly) shit on it when it happens.
I don't hide that I am a prolific poster and often times shitpost, I post or have posted in practically every subforum. Less as of late because I'm old and tired now and can't devote the time I did when I was in my 20s and early 30s, but I think once folks stop taking things at face value because someone says that the other person is the devil incarnate, it'll do a lot of good in helping rebuild the community a tiny bit.
And again, there are some folks that just will not mesh no matter what we do, I get it. I don't have a good solution. Maybe keeping the forums separate is that solution. Maybe the better solution is private discords for treehouses. I don't really know.
I think the safer option is, largely, preserving the subforum structure we have as best we can, and we can address any idea of eventually restructuring the community down the line.
Had PA Corp not decided “fuck it, sever the financial dead weight” that’s be the situation we’d have still been in six months from now, so at worst we’re stuck with the status quo instead of trying to figure out how to “fix” the problems* while also trying to, you know, preserve the community as a whole.
There are things I’d suggest to start fixing things, but given the major problem is “this place doesn’t exist in six months, period,” then the logical decision to me is to create the smoothest transition, warts and all, to a new home for the community and then figure out how to solve those problems and frictions once we’re no longer on the precipice of Internet community oblivion.
I understand that a new forum represents, for many of us here, the “opportunity” of a fresh clean slate and the unbridled potential of remaking the forum as our myriad dream utopias, but the problem there is one of goal: do you want to create your perfect new forum that’s arguably a treehouse to a dead community, or do you want to transition the present community over to a new host, new software and new corporate ownership even if that means maintaining the status quo a little while longer until things have stabilized?
*and to be blunt, these problems are in many ways a microcosm of the problems in larger society rather than strictly PA-based, with many of the same dynamics driving them
I want to get rid of it. It was good for a bunchy of edgy teens and twenty year olds, but we're adults now.
I'd like to keep the spirit if not the actual rule. Sometimes an asshole needs to be called an asshole, but generally speaking that does not create a good environment for discussion. Glorious Edict is far less subjective to enforce than "We are adults, act like it".
I don't know what it could be replaced with and we have recently seen that having such a clear, objective rule has it's own problems.
"Name-calling is not permitted, full stop."
I don't even think we need exceptions for Nazis and fascists - just report them to the mods.
That's essentially what the edict is now. I don't know the last time I saw someone called a goose.
One feature I would like is a way to see mod decrees on individual threads, it can be hard to tell that a mod said "No more talk about airplane peanuts" on page 20 when the thread is now on page 42 and I don't want to read 300 posts to catch up.
I want to get rid of it. It was good for a bunchy of edgy teens and twenty year olds, but we're adults now.
I'd like to keep the spirit if not the actual rule. Sometimes an asshole needs to be called an asshole, but generally speaking that does not create a good environment for discussion. Glorious Edict is far less subjective to enforce than "We are adults, act like it".
I don't know what it could be replaced with and we have recently seen that having such a clear, objective rule has it's own problems.
"People are just polite assholes and use the rules as shields and get me in trouble" well yes that's the way rules work. It's why one, typically, cannot just scream at a coworker who thinks differently from yourself or go off on a tangent at a customer that gives you vibes you don't like. We're trying to build or at least maintain a community, what use is there doing this anymore?
I don't agree "most of us are adults, so don't need rules, and I should just be able to call a spade a spade" because in my experience being a 30, 40, 50, etc does not limit the behavior you've seen from a teenager and that just ends up with, again, treehouses screeching about each other. We all have our bad days, we all sometimes take something completely out of context and make someone our worst enemies. I'm not immune, nor is anyone else here, no matter what they think of themselves of their bffs.
This is tied to Hanhsoo's point later of just needing more mods so somebody can step into issues more quickly and stop them. Sometimes people are assholes or having a bad day, but if a mod is there to actually hit a person with points quicker to a post being reported it doesn't matter.
But people throw around insults like Mothergooser with the same invective of motherfucker so what's the difference? That was the behavior the rule was supposed to curb and it did, it got rid of the people who just wanted to swear and insult people.
I agree, functionally there's no difference. I wish that mothergooser would be just as moderated is motherfucker.
D&D and SE isn’t a jets vs. sharks thing. It’s more about town hall vs. pub. It’s about moderation levels and overall vibe. SE has some latitude to drift off-topic (or ignore the topic altogether) and be a bit sillier. D&D often requires a little more of a heavier hand in moderation. I don’t think it’s worth worrying about upending the whole social structure here, especially at this stage. I say we port/recreate the structure as-is for now, minus any of the obviously dead subforums.
The point of the edict is to make people feel ridiculous and impotent when hurling insults, ideally to reduce the moderation load. It didn't really work, I think. People would just say "goose," unaware or uncaring that they looked ridiculous, or would insult each other freely and eat the infraction, or would just say technically polite yet deeply horrible things to each other, all of which required mod intervention anyway (whether they intervened or not).
There is no simple rule to institute that will stop people from being assholes. They will always find a way.
I want to get rid of it. It was good for a bunchy of edgy teens and twenty year olds, but we're adults now.
I'd like to keep the spirit if not the actual rule. Sometimes an asshole needs to be called an asshole, but generally speaking that does not create a good environment for discussion. Glorious Edict is far less subjective to enforce than "We are adults, act like it".
I don't know what it could be replaced with and we have recently seen that having such a clear, objective rule has it's own problems.
"Name-calling is not permitted, full stop."
I don't even think we need exceptions for Nazis and fascists - just report them to the mods.
That's essentially what the edict is now. I don't know the last time I saw someone called a goose.
One feature I would like is a way to see mod decrees on individual threads, it can be hard to tell that a mod said "No more talk about airplane peanuts" on page 20 when the thread is now on page 42 and I don't want to read 300 posts to catch up.
Yeah, for example, on ResetEra, they can show full-thread moderator message announcements so that people can read them on every page of the thread in an unobtrusive place.
MHWilds ID: JF9LL8L3
+8
syndalisGetting ClassyOn the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Products, Transition Teamregular
I want to get rid of it. It was good for a bunchy of edgy teens and twenty year olds, but we're adults now.
I'd like to keep the spirit if not the actual rule. Sometimes an asshole needs to be called an asshole, but generally speaking that does not create a good environment for discussion. Glorious Edict is far less subjective to enforce than "We are adults, act like it".
I don't know what it could be replaced with and we have recently seen that having such a clear, objective rule has it's own problems.
"Name-calling is not permitted, full stop."
I don't even think we need exceptions for Nazis and fascists - just report them to the mods.
That's essentially what the edict is now. I don't know the last time I saw someone called a goose.
One feature I would like is a way to see mod decrees on individual threads, it can be hard to tell that a mod said "No more talk about airplane peanuts" on page 20 when the thread is now on page 42 and I don't want to read 300 posts to catch up.
Yeah, for example, on ResetEra, they can show full-thread moderator message announcements so that people can read them on every page of the thread in an unobtrusive place.
equivalent of a pinned post in the thread, I like it.
SW-4158-3990-6116
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
+9
silence1186Character shields down!As a wingmanRegistered Userregular
Getting all of us off the sinking ship and on to the life boats is the issue now.
Once we're all on the life boats, we can have a discussion about how to arrange those boats.
But since we have a short time limit now, we need to prioritize.
The forum culture discussion absolutely needs to happen and merits a solution, but sinking ship now.
I want to get rid of it. It was good for a bunchy of edgy teens and twenty year olds, but we're adults now.
I'd like to keep the spirit if not the actual rule. Sometimes an asshole needs to be called an asshole, but generally speaking that does not create a good environment for discussion. Glorious Edict is far less subjective to enforce than "We are adults, act like it".
I don't know what it could be replaced with and we have recently seen that having such a clear, objective rule has it's own problems.
"Name-calling is not permitted, full stop."
I don't even think we need exceptions for Nazis and fascists - just report them to the mods.
That's essentially what the edict is now. I don't know the last time I saw someone called a goose.
One feature I would like is a way to see mod decrees on individual threads, it can be hard to tell that a mod said "No more talk about airplane peanuts" on page 20 when the thread is now on page 42 and I don't want to read 300 posts to catch up.
Blizzard had a good solution on this where it basically puts the mod posts as a separate thing you can always find no matter where you are with that timeline on the side.
The point of the edict is to make people feel ridiculous and impotent when hurling insults, ideally to reduce the moderation load. It didn't really work, I think. People would just say "goose," unaware or uncaring that they looked ridiculous, or would insult each other freely and eat the infraction, or would just say technically polite yet deeply horrible things to each other, all of which required mod intervention anyway (whether they intervened or not).
There is no simple rule to institute that will stop people from being assholes. They will always find a way.
I think it mostly has worked though. Just maybe on a longer timeline then anyone expected. You rarely see people throwing around "goose" or "mothergooser" or whatever these days. And virtually never, at least in my experience, in a non-ironic way.
What it hasn't managed to stop is people just posting "Fuck you" or the like.
D&D and SE isn’t a jets vs. sharks thing. It’s more about town hall vs. pub. It’s about moderation levels and overall vibe. SE has some latitude to drift off-topic (or ignore the topic altogether) and be a bit sillier. D&D often requires a little more of a heavier hand in moderation. I don’t think it’s worth worrying about upending the whole social structure here, especially at this stage. I say we port/recreate the structure as-is for now, minus any of the obviously dead subforums.
The subforum divide is heavily political, largely moderate left reformist/institutionalist vs farther left radicalism, and as Lanz says, it reflects a broader political divide around the world, one that has existed for a long time. Professional politicians are tearing at their hair trying to build coalitions across these lines as we speak, and have been for decades. It's profoundly non-trivial and its not just vibes and styles.
I think the Glorious Edict is great. I know there are many harmfully restrictive Social Constructs in the real world but it's also true that fake politeness can go a long way towards real politeness and having certain standards, however arbitrary, of social decorum do a lot to calm the tone down. I don't think we should underestimate how much it can defuse unnecessary hostility to be forced to use a goofy insult instead of what you want to say.
As far as SE and D&D go, I am an D&D user, not because I have any problem with SE "culture" (I don't know anything about it!) but because I would rather catch up on a few well-considered, on-topic posts in a thread I'm following than have to read through pages of stream-of-consciousness. I only just started dipping into chat and while I do enjoy it, I had to train myself to just pick up from the last page instead of trying to catch up. It's a different style of conversation. I don't know if that means its worth keeping SE and D&D separate or not. I just feel like right now D&D threads move at a good pace, with a good amount of thoughtfulness and staying on topic while not being overly strict about it. If that stayed the same after a merge, that'd be fine.
Unfortunately when I do see SE folks posting in these "crossover" threads, I get the impression that they would consider me a bad person for what I said above about the Glorious Edict. So while I don't want to offer an opinion on the "culture" stuff without having an understanding of SE culture, I would want to make sure that if there really is a big userbase of people who hate the idea of decorum, that they have their own space and we have ours.
So I see the arguments for merging and for keeping things as they are, I guess.
The point of the edict is to make people feel ridiculous and impotent when hurling insults, ideally to reduce the moderation load. It didn't really work, I think. People would just say "goose," unaware or uncaring that they looked ridiculous, or would insult each other freely and eat the infraction, or would just say technically polite yet deeply horrible things to each other, all of which required mod intervention anyway (whether they intervened or not).
There is no simple rule to institute that will stop people from being assholes. They will always find a way.
Yeah kind of a misstep expecting that less moderation is a good policy. I get why Tube did it even if it was never going to work. I've moderated things before myself, people suck.
+1
Sir FabulousMalevolent Squid GodRegistered Userregular
Honestly, a group of adults should be able to say 'fuck you' to each other. It's not really that bad.
Fuck you can be anything from a term of endearment, to an expression of exasperation, to a sincere desire to see hurt inflicted on somebody else.
The only thing that's a problem is that last one.
It's not just about the language that's used, but the intent. And the glorious edict only affects the language that's used.
The point of the edict is to make people feel ridiculous and impotent when hurling insults, ideally to reduce the moderation load. It didn't really work, I think. People would just say "goose," unaware or uncaring that they looked ridiculous, or would insult each other freely and eat the infraction, or would just say technically polite yet deeply horrible things to each other, all of which required mod intervention anyway (whether they intervened or not).
There is no simple rule to institute that will stop people from being assholes. They will always find a way.
I think it mostly has worked though. Just maybe on a longer timeline then anyone expected. You rarely see people throwing around "goose" or "mothergooser" or whatever these days. And virtually never, at least in my experience, in a non-ironic way.
What it hasn't managed to stop is people just posting "Fuck you" or the like.
Getting all of us off the sinking ship and on to the life boats is the issue now.
Once we're all on the life boats, we can have a discussion about how to arrange those boats.
But since we have a short time limit now, we need to prioritize.
The forum culture discussion absolutely needs to happen and merits a solution, but sinking ship now.
I don't think that's a good metaphor to use, but if the issues with community health and how moderation is handled and will be handled isn't figured out first, people won't want to get on the lifeboats to start with.
Honestly, a group of adults should be able to say 'fuck you' to each other. It's not really that bad.
Fuck you can be anything from a term of endearment, to an expression of exasperation, to a sincere desire to see hurt inflicted on somebody else.
The only thing that's a problem is that last one.
It's not just about the language that's used, but the intent. And the glorious edict only affects the language that's used.
The issue is forums are a text based medium with a lot of participants. I, as a poster, or someone else, as a hypothetical moderator, can't easily tell the difference between a friendly "fuck you" and a "fuck you, you're an asshole" even if the meaning is understood by the recipient. Changing that to "you silly goose" immediately de-escalates a potentially hostile exchange.
If that's still applicable is up for debate as the environment is not the same as when the edict went into place.
+2
surfpossumA nonentitytrying to preserve the anonymity he so richly deserves.Registered Userregular
Getting all of us off the sinking ship and on to the life boats is the issue now.
Once we're all on the life boats, we can have a discussion about how to arrange those boats.
But since we have a short time limit now, we need to prioritize.
The forum culture discussion absolutely needs to happen and merits a solution, but sinking ship now.
I don't think that's a good metaphor to use, but if the issues with community health and how moderation is handled and will be handled isn't figured out first, people won't want to get on the lifeboats to start with.
We should be theseusing up this ship, not creating lifeboats
Honestly, a group of adults should be able to say 'fuck you' to each other. It's not really that bad.
Fuck you can be anything from a term of endearment, to an expression of exasperation, to a sincere desire to see hurt inflicted on somebody else.
The only thing that's a problem is that last one.
It's not just about the language that's used, but the intent. And the glorious edict only affects the language that's used.
Nah, you can be far more abusive with your language if you’re not restricted to using “goose”.
Yes, but you're missing the point of what I'm saying.
Does the glorious edict make people nicer, or does it paper over abuse by restricting people's options?
If the only thing preventing you from being abusive is not being able to say 'fuck', that's a problem.
Responsible adults should be able to say the work 'fuck'. I firmly believe that.
I think a part of the fundamental difference between people who like or don't like the edict is whether you want to share a space with someone who would abuse you if they had the chance but can't, or people who would not abuse you at all.
It's all well and good to say that if someone can't say something abusive then they're not a problem, but sometimes that negative vibe can leak out in other ways.
When I started reading this thread, I really thought starting over would be super fun.
I didn't realize how divided the areas were still. I mean, I knew there were probably people who only posted in the art or writing areas but I didn't realize that something as simple as One NBA or One Parenting thread would be so upsetting for people. I hope whatever the decision is won't cause folks to vanish. The only thing I'll add is that if it is decided that technically we're just backing up the old conversations and starting fresh, we (or the mods, whoever) make that decision early in the life of the new haunt.
I'm in favor of the edict. It sets a tone and expectation of behavior and I do feel the place has had a much better feeling overall thanks to it.
+1
SolyspPreviously Kane Red RobeRegistered Userregular
edited October 2024
IMO the only changes that should be made immediately to forum structure is excising all the PA specific project subforums and more because we legally have to rather than for activity reasons.
Once we've moved successfully we can keep a forum like this one open to discuss future layout of the forums and hash it out.
Edit: As far as I know we don't pay by the forum/sub-forum so we can afford to take our time on the reorganization rather than add it to the things that must get decided before we move.
I realize this is going to be an unpopular opinion
But really I think we all need to put the past behind us (political stuff aside, I'm not wading into that) I don't think with our diminishing member count we need to have stupid forum beef if we are going to a new home. We need to find a way to make distinct forums but without so much thread overlap. We don't need multiple threads talking about the same thing on different subforums.
Hell on the gaming side I'm in favour of Resetera's policy of new news, new thread, we don't need to wade 10 pages deep to talk about whatever new thing happened and it makes it easier to jump into a topic for anyone interested. If we are going to be staffing up the mod team they can handle the stupid petty BS when it arises and people can be adults or go elsewhere.
I think Zonugal's idea for revamped forum / subforum spaces is pretty good for an overhaul and honestly pretty close to what I was thinking would be the logical topical breakdowns. Quibbles, but fine as a talking point. The breakdown reduces the number of redundant threads, and lets there be different focuses and different rules depending on where the threads may fall.
Having a serious topical Twitter / Elon's Crazy Shit thread in 'The Debate Club' and then a 'stupid shit I saw on Twitter today' in 'The Suburbs' that has more room to veer off topic would be perfectly fine.
That said, right now we're in a triage mode and making massive changes and overhauls adds overhead to the migration project that needs to get rolling ASAP. It's sounding less likely that we'll be able to migrate content directly across (which I'm fine with) so setting up the main subforums (G&T, H&A, D&D, SE++, maybe a few more) and letting people migrate their threads over to there and worrying about larger restructure later might be a better way forward. It doesn't address any of the elephants in the room or cultural issues, but it at least keeps the forums alive past Memorial Day.
One thing I do think as a future state that is important is that whatever breakdown we have of subforums after this, and while some mods are likely to gravitate to one subforum or another, the rules and expectations of each subforum are all clear and consistently enforced by all of the mod staff. No subforum or thread should feel like a moderator's fiefdom. When Hahn talks about the small number of moderators for a community our size, that gets a whole lot smaller when only a couple moderators are empowered to moderate in a given space.
That moderation culture / consensus is something that can't really be pushed from the side of us regular forum users, but I hope there are ongoing discussions among the mod staff on ways to work as a group of <whatever our new name> mods are rather than D&D OR SE OR G&T mods who only leave their own space when something really bad is going down and the person who would usually handle it is offline.
Posts
Personally I really like how SE threads can freely go off on tangents and have entire pages of food talk in the middle of a thread. I imagine a lot of DnD folks prefer threads to be more stringent about staying on topic. So are we going to have on- and off-topic threads for every subject? Cos then you may as well have separate subforums. And if they're all going to be strictly on topic, well, I for one am probably not going to enjoy hanging out here (or there, I guess) any more.
MHWilds ID: JF9LL8L3
That's what I like about that sample hierarchy - the most serious D&D discussion still get to be in their own place. The only time I go into D&D is for the Lego thread - I post mostly in G&T and SE and having their names changed to the Suburbs and Arcade frankly wouldn't impact me and would still allow me to avoid the real serious world encroaching on my fun forum times.
But - given the revised time frame - I can completely get behind keeping the current structure, hiding the unused forums, and maybe just finding a way over time to consolidate things.
"Name-calling is not permitted, full stop."
I don't even think we need exceptions for Nazis and fascists - just report them to the mods.
I don't see the problem with that honestly.
That's been my view of SE++ most of the time. I have nothing against the topics or the people, it's just the ad-hoc posting style that I'm not very compatible with. The job thread in SE++ stays fairly structured, so I pop in there occasionally.
It's not, and it can't be, if only by dint of the fact that the company that literally started these forums wants nothing to do with us anymore.
Not only that, trying to claim the forums are fine as-is and just need to be ported to a new platform completely unchanged ignores the months, potentally years of community tension that boiled over and contributed to Geebs failed attempts to try and actively improve the state of the forums.
Putting aside all that for a second, though: You're really going to say with your whole chest that there's nothing about the forums that we could improve with this opportunity to get a fresh start? That we're all better served just carrying on completely unchanged on a separate platform?
Because I don't think anyone taking this migration seriously would agree with you.
But otoh, part of the reason people split into groups is because being forced to rub shoulders with people you don't like and fundamentally disagree with can turn the heat level up
In physical neighborhoods,* mixing people together helps to build empathy over material, real life concerns, but sometimes you will still get feuds that don't resolve.
*I almost wrote "real life" but I think that's pretty antiquated at this point. Digital spaces are real spaces with real consequences, and for some people they are the primary mode of socialization; it would be terrible to drive those people out rather than better accommodate them
This is tied to Hanhsoo's point later of just needing more mods so somebody can step into issues more quickly and stop them. Sometimes people are assholes or having a bad day, but if a mod is there to actually hit a person with points quicker to a post being reported it doesn't matter.
But people throw around insults like Mothergooser with the same invective of motherfucker so what's the difference? That was the behavior the rule was supposed to curb and it did, it got rid of the people who just wanted to swear and insult people.
{Bluesky Account }{Writing and Story Blog}
A lot of people post in one forum or the other and have for 10+ years now entirely because they prefer the style of discussion in one forum over the other. There's nothing wrong with that.
When people talk about merging SE++ and D&D what they are really talking about is one of them disappearing and the other being the only forum left.
And all that's gonna do is make a bunch of people on the losing side leave.
Whatever form the future forums take, I have no desire to be a mod there.
We appreciate you, Echo.
MHWilds ID: JF9LL8L3
Tube used to say, anyone who wants to be a mod probably shouldn't have that power. Lord knows I've told enough people I'd be up for helping out, but that I couldn't take the hate and vitriol that would be tossed my way and I'd have a mental breakdown super fast.
Perhaps we could go all chaos-agent and do secret ballots for mods? Like:
- You cannot nominate yourself
- You must include your name
- You must message an existing mod (or ideally an independent email address / distro list)
- You must explain why you feel the person would be a good mod
- You cannot specify a specific subforum that you feel the mod should oversee
- You acknowledge that modding should not be a popularity contest, but instead focus on the betterment of the community as a whole
A lot of the April complaints to Geebs boiled down to a lack of overall moderation and a lack of transparency on mod actions. Growing the pool of mods certainly has the potential to help both of those issues.
And yes, the joke that "SE people" get to decide D&D's mods and vice versa is bound to show up, but I legit am sick and tired of that schism and would like to see us all work towards making the best community we can. And maybe that means some don't stick around, but.. well, sometimes it is best to cut toxic influences out of your life. I dunno.
I can kind of shed a little light on this.
I hope you're okay with me pinging you here @Magell . Magell and I both post in chat, but I know we butt heads several times in election related threads specifically. Inside of chat it's... just mostly not a thing. At least not on my end and all the folks that seem to butt heads in the more on topic threads don't seem to really do it there. I think people are complex and when the gloves come off can mostly shake hands and hang out together. There are probably several who can't or don't want to because of some repugnant view, and I understand it, but I think it does help to have that shared space. Occasionally someone brings up a beef but, again, mostly not a thing and mods usually (rightly) shit on it when it happens.
I don't hide that I am a prolific poster and often times shitpost, I post or have posted in practically every subforum. Less as of late because I'm old and tired now and can't devote the time I did when I was in my 20s and early 30s, but I think once folks stop taking things at face value because someone says that the other person is the devil incarnate, it'll do a lot of good in helping rebuild the community a tiny bit.
And again, there are some folks that just will not mesh no matter what we do, I get it. I don't have a good solution. Maybe keeping the forums separate is that solution. Maybe the better solution is private discords for treehouses. I don't really know.
Had PA Corp not decided “fuck it, sever the financial dead weight” that’s be the situation we’d have still been in six months from now, so at worst we’re stuck with the status quo instead of trying to figure out how to “fix” the problems* while also trying to, you know, preserve the community as a whole.
There are things I’d suggest to start fixing things, but given the major problem is “this place doesn’t exist in six months, period,” then the logical decision to me is to create the smoothest transition, warts and all, to a new home for the community and then figure out how to solve those problems and frictions once we’re no longer on the precipice of Internet community oblivion.
I understand that a new forum represents, for many of us here, the “opportunity” of a fresh clean slate and the unbridled potential of remaking the forum as our myriad dream utopias, but the problem there is one of goal: do you want to create your perfect new forum that’s arguably a treehouse to a dead community, or do you want to transition the present community over to a new host, new software and new corporate ownership even if that means maintaining the status quo a little while longer until things have stabilized?
*and to be blunt, these problems are in many ways a microcosm of the problems in larger society rather than strictly PA-based, with many of the same dynamics driving them
That's essentially what the edict is now. I don't know the last time I saw someone called a goose.
One feature I would like is a way to see mod decrees on individual threads, it can be hard to tell that a mod said "No more talk about airplane peanuts" on page 20 when the thread is now on page 42 and I don't want to read 300 posts to catch up.
I agree, functionally there's no difference. I wish that mothergooser would be just as moderated is motherfucker.
There is no simple rule to institute that will stop people from being assholes. They will always find a way.
Yeah, for example, on ResetEra, they can show full-thread moderator message announcements so that people can read them on every page of the thread in an unobtrusive place.
MHWilds ID: JF9LL8L3
equivalent of a pinned post in the thread, I like it.
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
Once we're all on the life boats, we can have a discussion about how to arrange those boats.
But since we have a short time limit now, we need to prioritize.
The forum culture discussion absolutely needs to happen and merits a solution, but sinking ship now.
Blizzard had a good solution on this where it basically puts the mod posts as a separate thing you can always find no matter where you are with that timeline on the side.
We might have to roll a custom solution for that.
I think it mostly has worked though. Just maybe on a longer timeline then anyone expected. You rarely see people throwing around "goose" or "mothergooser" or whatever these days. And virtually never, at least in my experience, in a non-ironic way.
What it hasn't managed to stop is people just posting "Fuck you" or the like.
The subforum divide is heavily political, largely moderate left reformist/institutionalist vs farther left radicalism, and as Lanz says, it reflects a broader political divide around the world, one that has existed for a long time. Professional politicians are tearing at their hair trying to build coalitions across these lines as we speak, and have been for decades. It's profoundly non-trivial and its not just vibes and styles.
As far as SE and D&D go, I am an D&D user, not because I have any problem with SE "culture" (I don't know anything about it!) but because I would rather catch up on a few well-considered, on-topic posts in a thread I'm following than have to read through pages of stream-of-consciousness. I only just started dipping into chat and while I do enjoy it, I had to train myself to just pick up from the last page instead of trying to catch up. It's a different style of conversation. I don't know if that means its worth keeping SE and D&D separate or not. I just feel like right now D&D threads move at a good pace, with a good amount of thoughtfulness and staying on topic while not being overly strict about it. If that stayed the same after a merge, that'd be fine.
Unfortunately when I do see SE folks posting in these "crossover" threads, I get the impression that they would consider me a bad person for what I said above about the Glorious Edict. So while I don't want to offer an opinion on the "culture" stuff without having an understanding of SE culture, I would want to make sure that if there really is a big userbase of people who hate the idea of decorum, that they have their own space and we have ours.
So I see the arguments for merging and for keeping things as they are, I guess.
Yeah kind of a misstep expecting that less moderation is a good policy. I get why Tube did it even if it was never going to work. I've moderated things before myself, people suck.
Fuck you can be anything from a term of endearment, to an expression of exasperation, to a sincere desire to see hurt inflicted on somebody else.
The only thing that's a problem is that last one.
It's not just about the language that's used, but the intent. And the glorious edict only affects the language that's used.
Switch Friend Code: SW-1406-1275-7906
yeah, but it's WAY less
Nah, you can be far more abusive with your language if you’re not restricted to using “goose”.
I don't think that's a good metaphor to use, but if the issues with community health and how moderation is handled and will be handled isn't figured out first, people won't want to get on the lifeboats to start with.
{Bluesky Account }{Writing and Story Blog}
The issue is forums are a text based medium with a lot of participants. I, as a poster, or someone else, as a hypothetical moderator, can't easily tell the difference between a friendly "fuck you" and a "fuck you, you're an asshole" even if the meaning is understood by the recipient. Changing that to "you silly goose" immediately de-escalates a potentially hostile exchange.
If that's still applicable is up for debate as the environment is not the same as when the edict went into place.
Yes, but you're missing the point of what I'm saying.
Does the glorious edict make people nicer, or does it paper over abuse by restricting people's options?
If the only thing preventing you from being abusive is not being able to say 'fuck', that's a problem.
Responsible adults should be able to say the work 'fuck'. I firmly believe that.
I think a part of the fundamental difference between people who like or don't like the edict is whether you want to share a space with someone who would abuse you if they had the chance but can't, or people who would not abuse you at all.
It's all well and good to say that if someone can't say something abusive then they're not a problem, but sometimes that negative vibe can leak out in other ways.
Switch Friend Code: SW-1406-1275-7906
I didn't realize how divided the areas were still. I mean, I knew there were probably people who only posted in the art or writing areas but I didn't realize that something as simple as One NBA or One Parenting thread would be so upsetting for people. I hope whatever the decision is won't cause folks to vanish. The only thing I'll add is that if it is decided that technically we're just backing up the old conversations and starting fresh, we (or the mods, whoever) make that decision early in the life of the new haunt.
I'm in favor of the edict. It sets a tone and expectation of behavior and I do feel the place has had a much better feeling overall thanks to it.
Once we've moved successfully we can keep a forum like this one open to discuss future layout of the forums and hash it out.
Edit: As far as I know we don't pay by the forum/sub-forum so we can afford to take our time on the reorganization rather than add it to the things that must get decided before we move.
But really I think we all need to put the past behind us (political stuff aside, I'm not wading into that) I don't think with our diminishing member count we need to have stupid forum beef if we are going to a new home. We need to find a way to make distinct forums but without so much thread overlap. We don't need multiple threads talking about the same thing on different subforums.
Hell on the gaming side I'm in favour of Resetera's policy of new news, new thread, we don't need to wade 10 pages deep to talk about whatever new thing happened and it makes it easier to jump into a topic for anyone interested. If we are going to be staffing up the mod team they can handle the stupid petty BS when it arises and people can be adults or go elsewhere.
Having a serious topical Twitter / Elon's Crazy Shit thread in 'The Debate Club' and then a 'stupid shit I saw on Twitter today' in 'The Suburbs' that has more room to veer off topic would be perfectly fine.
That said, right now we're in a triage mode and making massive changes and overhauls adds overhead to the migration project that needs to get rolling ASAP. It's sounding less likely that we'll be able to migrate content directly across (which I'm fine with) so setting up the main subforums (G&T, H&A, D&D, SE++, maybe a few more) and letting people migrate their threads over to there and worrying about larger restructure later might be a better way forward. It doesn't address any of the elephants in the room or cultural issues, but it at least keeps the forums alive past Memorial Day.
One thing I do think as a future state that is important is that whatever breakdown we have of subforums after this, and while some mods are likely to gravitate to one subforum or another, the rules and expectations of each subforum are all clear and consistently enforced by all of the mod staff. No subforum or thread should feel like a moderator's fiefdom. When Hahn talks about the small number of moderators for a community our size, that gets a whole lot smaller when only a couple moderators are empowered to moderate in a given space.
That moderation culture / consensus is something that can't really be pushed from the side of us regular forum users, but I hope there are ongoing discussions among the mod staff on ways to work as a group of <whatever our new name> mods are rather than D&D OR SE OR G&T mods who only leave their own space when something really bad is going down and the person who would usually handle it is offline.